Time: Wives, Mistresses and Men

fleet

Hi,

hopefully someone can solve a quandary for me, or a the least shed some light.

What should a man do when, after twenty years of marriage, he realises he is no longer physically attracted to his wife?

This could get really derailed really quickly so let's set some rules.

1. He's never cheated, never would.
2. He's a loving husband who's made all the usual sacrifices in marriage and still deeply loves his wife.
3. He has a normal to high libido.
4. His wife doesn't deny him sex, she just isn't as attractive as she once was and he finds it difficult to think of her as sexy.
5. Kids aren't involved.


This isn't a PI, I'm not the subject here, but I'm at the age when my friends are beginning to marry. It's a question that's cause me to break up with top notch girlfriends and choose the life of a bachelor.


If Tiger Woods was here I'd ask him, or Arnold Schwarzenegger or half a dozen of my friends parents...

Anyone care to venture an opinion?

CerebralCortex

I personally don't think marriage should be for life. When children are involved divorce should be allowed without question, proportional financial support should be provided to the children until the age of 18 for each child.

Emme

fleet wrote: »

1. He's never cheated, never would.
2. He's a loving husband who's made all the usual sacrifices in marriage and still deeply loves his wife.
3. He has a normal to high libido.
4. His wife doesn't deny him sex, she just isn't as attractive as she once was and he finds it difficult to think of her as sexy.
5. Kids aren't involved.


This isn't a PI, I'm not the subject here, but I'm at the age when my friends are beginning to marry. It's a question that's cause me to break up with top notch girlfriends and choose the life of a bachelor.

Anyone care to venture an opinion?

That's a pessimistic scenario. OK, it's true in some cases but some marriages go the distance without cheating. Love in a marriage isn't all about fancying your partner because he/she turns you on like a porn star. It can grow from a myriad of different things and can eclipse a partner's desire to cheat when the husband or wife isn't as attractive as they were when younger.

Historically wealthy men (or any men who could afford it) have had mistresses and stayed married. Here's a link to an article in the New York Times from June 30 last. It sheds some light on the topic of this thread:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/03/magazine/infidelity-will-keep-us-together.html?WT.mc_id=GN-D-I-NYT-MOD-MOD-M208-ROS-0711-HDR&WT.mc_ev=click

If mistresses were accepted in society and not treated as pariahs then the OP's proposed scenario might not destroy a marriage. The mistress would have to be treated fairly as well in exchange for discretion. This is only a fictitious solution, I'm not advocating that all married men go out and get mistresses straight away!

As it happens many married men in Ireland are happily banging away on the side, treating their side dishes like unpaid prostitutes and in many cases not divulging the fact that they are married.

Real life don't happen the way you describe. A huge part of a loving relationship in marriage is being attracted to and being sexually interested in your partner there fore the man in your scenario, while he may love his wife, dose not love his wife in a way that sustained a marriage so he should get a divorce imo.

Thinking a good sexual relationship is based only on how someone looks and that you need the excitement of the unfamiliar is a little bit immature and a denial of the complexities of human nature.

And what about his wifes sexual needs or dose she not have any?

CerebralCortex

mariaalice wrote: »

And what about his wife sexual needs or dose she not have any?

I think this should be considered a he/she question. Interchangeable. If you don't want to be with someone you shouldn't be.

looksee

Its not about physical attraction. If you love someone, after 20 years you will not need simple physical attraction to remain in a state of desiring them.

If however you do feel that way then the kindest think is divorce - give it another twenty years and you will be caring for each other, or one will be caring for the other, in a way that physical attraction is irrelevant, and god knows you wouldn't want to be looking after someone you didn't fancy, would you?

fleet

@CerebralCortex - I fear you are correct, the "not for life" is hardly what the wife wants to hear though.

@Emme - yeah, mistresses would almost be tolerated in France/ Japan, it would be a major culture shift here. Nice link!

@mariaalice - I hope you are correct, but I fear that physical attraction in males is the primary driver in sex, and sex represents a large chunk of what it is to be in a relationship for most of ones life.
You're right about the male / female though - this could be applied to either, it's just it tends to be males who are portrayed as having the higher sex drive, and one linked to physical attraction. Not a rule though.

@looksee - I'd not wait 20 more years just to see, you only get one shot at life!

28064212

It's relatively simple. People make an agreement on their wedding day to remain monogamous. You don't get to change that unilaterally. If one partner no longer accepts the terms, they have two options: they can either re-negotiate (hell, the other partner might want the same ability to see other people) or you can break off the agreement completely (divorce)

looksee

@looksee - I'd not wait 20 more years just to see, you only get one shot at life!

I am not suggesting you wait another 20 years, I am saying that if you are not happy after 20 you should divorce because it will not get any easier

gargleblaster

mariaalice wrote: »

Thinking a good sexual relationship is based only on how someone looks and that you need the excitement of the unfamiliar is a little bit immature and a denial of the complexities of human nature.

This. We age. Our bodies change shape, and our faces become lined and droopy.

If we don't love our partner for who they are rather than what they look like, then the relationship is doomed before it starts.

looksee

I hope you are correct, but I fear that physical attraction in males is the primary driver in sex, and sex represents a large chunk of what it is to be in a relationship for most of ones life.

I have some really sad news for you fleet. Your current level of interest in sex will very slowly become less - it will probably not go away completely, but you will almost certainly not find it as all important as you do now!

CerebralCortex

looksee wrote: »

I have some really sad news for you fleet. Your current level of interest in sex will very slowly become less - it will probably not go away completely, but you will almost certainly not find it as all important as you do now!

So there's even less reason to have a long term partner?

looksee

CerebralCortex wrote: »

So there's even less reason to have a long term partner?

Well if your only reason is for sex that can only be had with someone who provides new attraction and glamour, then yes, you should not consider a long term retationship, but good luck in continuing find young, exciting and attractive partners as you get older and flabbier. You will have to make sure you have lots of money.

If you want companionship, affection, love and a stable family then you allow yourself to discover that, regardless of appearances, you still fancy the person you are getting older with.

prinz

fleet wrote: »

What should a man do when, after twenty years of marriage, he realises he is no longer physically attracted to his wife?

On what grounds? Has she just aged, like all of us do? Tough, that's part of what he signed up for in marriage. If you don't like the notion of ageing, don't get married.

Physically attraction and vary. It can come and it can go. A real relationship is based around more than just the physical attraction. We all age, we all get older. None of use are going to be as physically attractive at an advanced age as we were at our peak (except a lucky few who seem to get better with age).

1. He's never cheated, never would.
2. He's a loving husband who's made all the usual sacrifices in marriage and still deeply loves his wife.
3. He has a normal to high libido.
4. His wife doesn't deny him sex, she just isn't as attractive as she once was and he finds it difficult to think of her as sexy.
5. Kids aren't involved.

Personally I'd say I'd much rather change physically than have a stunted maturity.

hinault

I'm married 18 years.
My wifes physical appearance has always been important to her and she goes to great lengths to try to keep her physical appearance.
She exercise 5 days per week.

I'm a lucky fella I suppose.

Gilda Fortune

Is the man in the scenario still attractive himself after 20 years? or is his attractiveness proportionate to the size of his wallet?

i think let him go off and screw who he wants. once he also by that standard does not complain if the wife takes a lover

There is the common misconception that women don't seek their own adventures outside of marriage. Especially now with the changes in society, there are less restrictions on women doing such. So the question of mistresses isn't really restricted to just men. Its a stereotype issue.

I'm living in China where the idea of mistresses is more fixed. Most marriages accept that the man will get himself a mistress as he gains prosperity. In many ways its expected of the man depending on the industry/profession he's in. And it doesn't stop with the men, since there is still the very strong focus of the middle aged woman getting a younger lover. There's a Chinese expression of "making her husband wear a green hat" which means she's cheating... there's no expression for a man having a lover. And this expression is used widely.

Typically, when the first child is born, the wife focuses all her attentions on the child ignoring the "needs" of the husband, so he goes elsewhere. But then since the husband is either working all the time or with the mistress, the wife goes elsewhere to seek intimacy especially once the child is old enough for school. IF shown up in public, either side can be harassed, but China has a strong culture of allowing (and often encouraging this behavior) as long as its behind closed doors.

I'm sure someone will mention that Ireland is not China, and thats certainly true. China is a lot more traditional, and set in its rules. Ireland at least has the appearance of freedom, and that counts for a lot.

Personally, I look to my parents since they're the only long lasting relationship I know of. They had their issues, but since they're in their late 60's the relationship is more about friendship than anything else. Somehow I figure thats pretty common at that age. I still believe in the value of marriage no matter the age of the people involved. It just depends on the motivation of the two people for staying together.

gargleblaster

It is interesting that you mention terminology. Wiki says that the 'green hat' label applies to men who 'offer' their wives and daughters, as a means of making a living. (Not sure how accurate that is, given that it's Wiki.) However, it is interesting to me because there is apparently no term for men who are cheating on their wives in China. Similarly there is "cuckold" in English - but what is the equivalent for women whose husbands cheat on them? I can't help but wonder if this somehow ties in with the fact that there are so many derogatory terms for women who are sexually adventurous, yet hardly any for men. That what is given as the norm for men is not the same for women, therefore there are names made up to describe the 'abnormal' situation.

Also, this tradition of men (and less often, women as well) taking lovers after being married isn't limited to China (or Japan or any other place where it's still practiced). The tradition has fallen out of favor in the west, but it was very much the norm here as well. It just wasn't talked about out of politeness. I find the fact that the west has moved away from these customs a form of evolution. I find the lack of deceit and pretense for appearance's sake a positive change. If a couple wants to have a relationship where they are both allowed to have lovers that is all well and good, but it should be done honestly and above board, IMO.

Emme

gargleblaster wrote: »

Also, this tradition of men (and less often, women as well) taking lovers after being married isn't limited to China (or Japan or any other place where it's still practiced). The tradition has fallen out of favor in the west, but it was very much the norm here as well.

When you say "the west" do you mean America and Europe, or certain European countries such as France and Italy where having a mistress has always been the norm.

I doubt if having a mistress or male lover has been the norm in Ireland since the English invaded and replaced the Brehon laws with their own. There were provisions within the Brehon laws for men and women taking lovers within marriage. Women's needs were taken into account as well as men's, a woman whose husband wasn't satisfying her needs had the right to take a lover (more than likely a sturdy young warrior )

gargleblaster wrote: »

It just wasn't talked about out of politeness. I find the fact that the west has moved away from these customs a form of evolution. I find the lack of deceit and pretense for appearance's sake a positive change. If a couple wants to have a relationship where they are both allowed to have lovers that is all well and good, but it should be done honestly and above board, IMO.

This would be difficult because of the expectations of all concerned. As things stand here the mistress of a married man in this scenario would be getting a pretty raw deal and the wife would probably feel his licensed philandering gives her carte blanche to spend money left right and centre! We need to "evolve" more in Ireland before such scenarios can be accepted and indeed the "other woman" isn't automatically regarded as a cheap piece of husband-stealing garbage even though some powerful married men in Ireland has mistresses (often married themselves and some single independent women who had no intention of marrying) for decades.

Remember how Celia Larkin and Terry Keane were vilified by the Irish media? Their respective married lovers didn't get nearly as much abuse and Bertie Aherne's estranged wife Miriam was nearly put forward for canonisation by a certain Irish newspaper. Just because her extranged husband came clean about having a mistress for years.

I compare having a mistress to wearing well-tailored suits - it comes naturally to the French and the Italians while the Irish are still a bit uncomfortable with it.

Most married men in Ireland who cheat prefer to pretend they are single and try to have an anonymous one-night-stand. That way the wife doesn't find out he cheated and the shag won't find out he's married. You see them in Doheny & Nesbitts taking their wedding rings off and putting them in their pockets. Apparently the bar staff in D & N regularly find wedding rings on the floor when they're cleaning up! :rolleyes:

As it is we can't approach a member of the opposite sex without being tanked up no matter what age we are. One only has to see what falls out of pubs and clubs at 2am on a Saturday or Sunday morning to realise how much we need alcohol to lubricate (or drown) our sexuality. We are still very backward compared to the rest of Europe. It's not that we aren't having sex, it's how we're having it - ie strangers rutting drunkenly up an alleyway running with p*ss after being kicked out of Coppers.

gargleblaster

Yes I was thinking of America and Europe. I'm American and not overly familiar with Ireland but I thought it was fairly common in the UK as well, especially for men with well paid jobs. I have known several single women who actually preferred to simply date married men. As they put it, they got to enjoy the pleasures of courtship without having to 'be his maid' all the time. Of the handful I have known, only one (an office manager I worked for who was sleeping with the boss) seemed to want to be any more than a mistress. The rest weren't family minded at all and loved the situation. I knew one while working at that same office who dated several married men, and I did wonder if she was actually more of a high class prostitute than just a mistress. Oh, the drama.

That's very interesting about Brehon law. It does seem like ancient Ireland was one of the few places that we know of whose laws were more or less fair in how they treated the sexes. It makes me wonder how different the world would be were it not for all these anti-woman religions.

Emme

gargleblaster wrote: »

Yes I was thinking of America and Europe. I'm American and not overly familiar with Ireland but I thought it was fairly common in the UK as well, especially for men with well paid jobs. I have known several single women who actually preferred to simply date married men. As they put it, they got to enjoy the pleasures of courtship without having to 'be his maid' all the time. Of the handful I have known, only one (an office manager I worked for who was sleeping with the boss) seemed to want to be any more than a mistress. The rest weren't family minded at all and loved the situation. I knew one while working at that same office who dated several married men, and I did wonder if she was actually more of a high class prostitute than just a mistress. Oh, the drama.

That's very interesting about Brehon law. It does seem like ancient Ireland was one of the few places that we know of whose laws were more or less fair in how they treated the sexes. It makes me wonder how different the world would be were it not for all these anti-woman religions.

As a single woman I wouldn't like to date a married man. Do these women ever consider the long-suffering wife?

As for being "courted" in a relationship with a man, married or otherwise, that seems to have gone out the window here. I would imagine that married men here who stray treat their side dishes like unpaid prostitutes, they're just there for the sex and that's it. Lots of single guys want similar arrangements where the women are available to have sex at the drop of a hat but don't make any demands on the guy's time. Sad.

Scanlas The 2nd

Emme wrote: »

Lots of single guys want similar arrangements where the women are available to have sex at the drop of a hat but don't make any demands on the guy's time. Sad.

So long as both parties are happy with the arrangement and no one is being deceived there is nothing sad about it.

Emme

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

So long as both parties are happy with the arrangement and no one is being deceived there is nothing sad about it.

That's all very well but arrangements like this are almost the norm now. This has led to a scenario where some men don't want to put the effort into having a relationship or even go out with a girl on dates, instead they just want to drop by for sex and leave afterwards. Women get fed up with these arrangements faster than men and unfortunately it is getting more difficult to find a man who is interested in an actual relationship, rather than just hooking up.

pickarooney

Where do people get this idea that having a mistress in France is 'the norm'?
Or that older men's sex drives are higher than older women's. I'd lay odds the opposite is true.

Emme

pickarooney wrote: »

Where do people get this idea that having a mistress in France is 'the norm'?
Or that older men's sex drives are higher than older women's. I'd lay odds the opposite is true.

People of all ages have differing sex drives. I think that older women sometimes channel their energies away from sex because as they get older the chances of finding a sexual relationship diminish.

In certain strata of French society having a mistress was the norm but overall it's still more acceptable than it is here.

pickarooney

Emme wrote: »

People of all ages have differing sex drives. I think that older women sometimes channel their energies away from sex because as they get older the chances of finding a sexual relationship diminish.

In certain strata of French society having a mistress was the norm but overall it's still more acceptable than it is here.

Why do you say that though, based on what?

gargleblaster

pickarooney wrote: »

Why do you say that though, based on what?

I will jump in here and say based on culture. Adultery isn't something that every spouse in France would be overjoyed to learn their partner was into, I'm sure most would be devastated just as most other places. However societally speaking it is viewed much differently. Consider the photograph of Miterrand's wife, mistress and his daughter by that mistress, all grieving together at his funeral. "Le cinq a sept" is a widely-used term that originaly referred to the time a spouse was likely to be spending with a lover. The media there doesn't go nuts with stories about cheating spouses. It's just treated differently.

As for the single women I personally know who prefer to date married men, they don't seem to consider the wife at all. When I've asked them about it the way they put it is that he's a cheater whether they're the mistress involved or not. Also, studies show that men most often don't cheat just to get sex, but for a different kind of companionship (as well as illicit, exciting sex, not saying that's not part of it).

I would never cheat or tolerate a cheater myself, nor would I ever (knowingly - ugh) get involved with a married person. If you ask me the honorable thing to do is end the marriage and move on, or only enter an open marriage if that's what you prefer. Sneaking around behind someone's back is just cowardly and disrespectful IMO.

Emme

pickarooney wrote: »

Why do you say that though, based on what?

And don't get me started on Berlusconi! Mind you, he is getting up people's backs in Italy even though quite a few wealthy and powerful Italian men have mistresses.

pickarooney

I wouldn't equate the hysteria and rampant hypocrisy of the British media in relation to celebrity affairs with a level of acceptance. Just because French voters would not clamour to get a president impeached because he has a bit on the side doesn't mean that playing away is fair game for the average Joe. Statistically, French people are less likely to cheat than, e.g. Britons and adultery remains the primary reason for divorce.

gargleblaster

pickarooney wrote: »

I wouldn't equate the hysteria and rampant hypocrisy of the British media in relation to celebrity affairs with a level of acceptance. Just because French voters would not clamour to get a president impeached because he has a bit on the side doesn't mean that playing away is fair game for the average Joe. Statistically, French people are less likely to cheat than, e.g. Britons and adultery remains the primary reason for divorce.

It's not just that presidents recent and past have openly flaunted their mistresses and their children by those mistresses and nobody said anything about it (one even died in bed with his mistress and there it was not considered scandalous, at all). It's also the culture. I notice you said nothing about le cinq a sept. That is a term that specifically came about solely referring to the time spent with the person you were cheating with.

I think maybe you should do some reading about the subject. You might be very surprised. It's not like it's hidden.

prinz

gargleblaster wrote: »

It's not just that presidents recent and past have openly flaunted their mistresses and their children by those mistresses and nobody said anything about it (one even died in bed with his mistress and there it was not considered scandalous, at all). It's also the culture..

What 'culture'?

gargleblaster wrote: »

I notice you said nothing about le cinq a sept. That is a term that specifically came about solely referring to the time spent with the person you were cheating with..

..and now it is used to mean something very different. It orginated in a time when men with money, power and position often had mistresses. That was not confined to France but was the case in the UK too for example. The 2005 Durex World Sex Surveys would show that the percentages of people who admit to an extramarital affair is higher (in some cases far higher) in Denmark, Finland, Norway, Belgium, the Netherlands, Turkey, Sweden, Iceland, Vietnam, Italy, South Africa and Chile than France, with Czech Republic, Bulgaria not far behind. The idea that it is more prevalent in France than other countries is stereotypical nonsense based on fiction like Pépé le Pew and Gigi.

gargleblaster

French culture, hence my reference to the way the media treats adulterers.

Sorry, I didn't know the claim was made that there is more adultery in France. I thought the claim made was that it was treated as being more culturally acceptable.

And again, I am not saying that it's accepted by everyone there as a fact of life and everyone's fine with it. It's just that it isn't treated as if it's socially a big deal the way it is in the UK, America, etc.

I picked up more on Emme's posts than pickarooney's. He was talking about having a mistress being 'the norm' (I completely missed that claim apparently), and I was talking about it being treated as being overall more acceptable.

pickarooney

In essence, gargleblaster, you 'jumped in' to make a completely different and fairly irrelevant point about how in some countries what other people get up to is not seen as a matter of national importance as opposed to Emme's spurious assertion that the people involved themselves accept being cuckolded as some sort of permissible inevitability.

gargleblaster

Is that how you see it? I do strongly disagree.

I went back and saw the 'always been the norm' statement, and in my opinion, you've simply seized on that one fragment of a sentence, and have simply been picking apart those few words.

It seems to me that those words were simply poorly chosen. The way I see it is, I grasped the point she was trying to make and ran with it. Mea culpa indeed, if I did indeed get it wrong.

Here's a later statement that was made which leads me to believe that I was right in thinking that those earlier words were simply poorly chosen:

In certain strata of French society having a mistress was the norm but overall it's still more acceptable than it is here.

It's clear from that statement that she's clarifying the earlier one, limiting 'the norm' as it were to a certain strata of society, and leading the discussion back to where it was meant to be all along (i.e. the way it's viewed overall by society as opposed to how common it is).



As for your earlier assertion that French people are less likely to cheat, I'd like to know your source for that.

And as for my point being irrelevant, I again strongly disagree. This thread is about infidelity. I still maintain that it is viewed differently in France. In America, and in the UK (and apparently in Ireland as well) it is considered scandalous. In France, not so much.

pickarooney

gargleblaster wrote: »

Is that how you see it? I do strongly disagree.

I went back and saw the 'always been the norm' statement, and in my opinion, you've simply seized on that one fragment of a sentence, and have simply been picking apart those few words.

It seems to me that those words were simply poorly chosen. The way I see it is, I grasped the point she was trying to make and ran with it. Mea culpa indeed, if I did indeed get it wrong.

Here's a later statement that was made which leads me to believe that I was right in thinking that those earlier words were simply poorly chosen:

Emme, and others, have quite clearly stated that they believe adultery is viewed as 'normal' in France (and Italy, and Japan). This is unadulterated bull**** AFAIC.

fleet wrote: »

@Emme - yeah, mistresses would almost be tolerated in France/ Japan, it would be a major culture shift here. Nice link!

Emme wrote: »

When you say "the west" do you mean America and Europe, or certain European countries such as France and Italy where having a mistress has always been the norm.

I compare having a mistress to wearing well-tailored suits - it comes naturally to the French and the Italians while the Irish are still a bit uncomfortable with it.

Emme wrote: »

In certain strata of French society having a mistress was the norm but overall it's still more acceptable than it is here.

It's clear from that statement that she's clarifying the earlier one, limiting 'the norm' as it were to a certain strata of society, and leading the discussion back to where it was meant to be all along (i.e. the way it's viewed overall by society as opposed to how common it is).

The thread started off as a man's existential concern about falling out of physical love with a hypothetical partner. Nowhere did the OP mention society's or the media's ostensible view of adultery in general.

Meanwhile, I asked a poster to explain if he/she could where this perception
that people in other countries are (more) OK with being cuckolded but you sort of keep getting in the way with a tangential argument.

As for your earlier assertion that French people are less likely to cheat, I'd like to know your source for that.

Any recent survey which invariably puts the UK at the top of the European infidelity league. It could of course just point to Britons being more honest about their indiscretions.

And as for my point being irrelevant, I again strongly disagree. This thread is about infidelity. I still maintain that it is viewed differently in France. In America, and in the UK (and apparently in Ireland as well) it is considered scandalous. In France, not so much.

I don't agree. People in some cultures, for some unfathomable reason, spend an inordinate amount of time wondering how many mistresses Ryan Giggs or Tiger Woods have had. Nobody is scandalised or gives a crap about any of the people involved; it's just some pathetic vicarious tittilation. What do you really know about how people view their spouses' philanderings in any country to form this opinion, let alone insinuate it as fact?

Emme

prinz wrote: »

The 2005 Durex World Sex Surveys would show that the percentages of people who admit to an extramarital affair is higher (in some cases far higher) in Denmark, Finland, Norway, Belgium, the Netherlands, Turkey, Sweden, Iceland, Vietnam, Italy, South Africa and Chile than France, with Czech Republic, Bulgaria not far behind.

But not in Ireland.

I was citing France as one country where it was accepted that wealthy and powerful men had mistresses but I was referring to the culture, not census figures for extramarital affairs (if these exist :rolleyes:)

I stated that the having a mistress is not really accepted in Irish culture even though it may be quite common. Indeed, some men here might not even admit to having a mistress, then again I don't suppose a woman you "hookup" with for about 20 minutes before going home to the wife or when you're on a business trip could be considered a mistress.

A foreign male friend used to visit brothels in Brussels when he was over on business trips (his affair) and he said that a large number of the clientele were Irish men over on business. So some Irish men do cheat.

Back to the OP, if he doesn't love his GF enough now to see beyond the superficialities of an unlined face and a toned youthful body then he should let her go and give her the chance to find somebody who really cares about her. The men here can argue away about physical attractiveness being important, ok, yes it is, but if it's the only thing binding people together then their relationship is very poor and probably won't survive the first storm.

prinz

Emme wrote: »

I was citing France as one country where it was accepted that wealthy and powerful men had mistresses but I was referring to the culture, not census figures for extramarital affairs (if these exist :rolleyes:)

So it is treated differently yes, but how does that equate to it becoming the 'norm' of a certain strata of society? This being based on a handful of high profile cases.. Haughey had his own island, and was living a lifestyle far beyond his official salary. This seems to have been tolerated and accepted. Was it the norm?

How does it equate to having a mistress coming naturally to "the French"... it doesn't.

You can say the public reaction was different in France than it would be in Ireland. That's a different point though.

Emme

Emme wrote: »

As a single woman I wouldn't like to date a married man. Do these women ever consider the long-suffering wife?

As a single male in my mid thirties I've never dated a married women. I have slept with a few but always found out after the fact. I wonder though about the "long-suffering wife" phrase... it ignores that many men have to put up with a lot of rubbish simply to be married to the woman they still love (or in thinking of the kids).

Its a stereotype. The wife suffers and the man plays.

As for being "courted" in a relationship with a man, married or otherwise, that seems to have gone out the window here. I would imagine that married men here who stray treat their side dishes like unpaid prostitutes, they're just there for the sex and that's it. Lots of single guys want similar arrangements where the women are available to have sex at the drop of a hat but don't make any demands on the guy's time. Sad.

From conversations with a few friends that have been married over a decade, its not really the sex they're after. Its a feeling of a connection. Hollywood throws out these images of rampant sex and crazy one-night stands, and yet, for many people they just want someone interested in them. After a while, marriage seems to get ordinary, and their partners don't show much interest beyond their work, their kids, their own problems etc.

That's all very well but arrangements like this are almost the norm now. This has led to a scenario where some men don't want to put the effort into having a relationship or even go out with a girl on dates, instead they just want to drop by for sex and leave afterwards.

There will always be some men and some women that do things for sex. They never really grow up. Sad isn't it?

Women get fed up with these arrangements faster than men and unfortunately it is getting more difficult to find a man who is interested in an actual relationship, rather than just hooking up

How do you know that women get tired of these arrangements quicker than men? I mean like if its just for sex, then I suppose its possible, but I know plenty of women that love sex just as much as men... and thats after their 2nd or 3rd child. Why is there this continued belief that women don't enjoy sex as much as men?

Secondly, consider what I said earlier about those seeking a connection, then its an emotional bond, and women would (stereotypically speaking) want it to last longer than men... don't we have loads of stories and movies about partners that couldn't let their lovers leave them?

People of all ages have differing sex drives. I think that older women sometimes channel their energies away from sex because as they get older the chances of finding a sexual relationship diminish.

I suppose it depends on priorities... if they (women) let their bodies go then the chances would diminish dramatically, but consider that their husbands are roughly their own age, so... Sex drive is a personal thing, and will depend on the person in question, from both a physical and psychological pov. My parents are in their mid-60's and occasionally still have sex. They love to torment me with the idea of them frollicking together through the house while I'm gone.

Emme

Emme wrote: »

But not in Ireland.

but what is Ireland now? Its a country with hordes of people from other countries living there. Hell, its amazing the numbers of married couples I know where one partner is originally from another country, or their parents were...

Unless we're talking about Irish culture from the 80's?

I stated that the having a mistress is not really accepted in Irish culture even though it may be quite common. Indeed, some men here might not even admit to having a mistress, then again I don't suppose a woman you "hookup" with for about 20 minutes before going home to the wife or when you're on a business trip could be considered a mistress.

A foreign male friend used to visit brothels in Brussels when he was over on business trips (his affair) and he said that a large number of the clientele were Irish men over on business. So some Irish men do cheat.

my mind boggles when i read this. 20 mins? Thats quite the quickie.

I'm curious.. have you heard about the hen nights where Irish women go abroad (amsterdam, brussels, Edinburgh etc) and hook up with random strangers.. Apparently irish women are getting quite the reputation abroad from these parties.

So I guess some Irish women cheat.

But then we could talk about a pretty big male prostitution industry on the continent... I wonder if Irish women ever avail of those services while on business trips.

Some people cheat.

the OP, if he doesn't love his GF enough now to see beyond the superficialities of an unlined face and a toned youthful body then he should let her go and give her the chance to find somebody who really cares about her. The men here can argue away about physical attractiveness being important, ok, yes it is, but if it's the only thing binding people together then their relationship is very poor and probably won't survive the first storm.

TBH a lot of the posts here that seem to be from men don't focus on the sexual element as much as you do... Personally, I think the OP is an idiot, and should grow up, but thats just me. Marriage shouldn't be just about sex. Initially its a factor, but there's so much more to it than that.

Emme

Deleted User wrote: »

but what is Ireland now? Its a country with hordes of people from other countries living there. Hell, its amazing the numbers of married couples I know where one partner is originally from another country, or their parents were...

Unless we're talking about Irish culture from the 80's?.

Thank goodness for that. Unfortunately as you said, things were very different in the 1980s. Despite the changes in culture, the double standard still persists.

Deleted User wrote: »

TBH a lot of the posts here that seem to be from men don't focus on the sexual element as much as you do... Personally, I think the OP is an idiot, and should grow up, but thats just me. Marriage shouldn't be just about sex. Initially its a factor, but there's so much more to it than that.

The OP was worried about whether he'd fancy his gf in 20 years time after marrying her. That's why I was focusing on the sexual element. If he was worried about her level of education I'd have been focusing on that.

gargleblaster

pickarooney wrote: »

Emme, and others, have quite clearly stated that they believe adultery is viewed as 'normal' in France (and Italy, and Japan). This is unadulterated bull**** AFAIC.

Once again, I didn't take those comments literally and interpreted them to mean 'more accepted culturally'.

As for your opinion that the assertion that it's viewed as less of a big deal in these places is "unadulterated bull****", I do get from your extreme comments that you personally feel that it's inaccurate. However I have to ask, have you done any reading about it? If not, please do.

The thread started off as a man's existential concern about falling out of physical love with a hypothetical partner. Nowhere did the OP mention society's or the media's ostensible view of adultery in general.

The act of deciding that you no longer wish to stay faithful is called adultery. So that whole falling out of so-called "physical love" :pac: kind of leads to the idea of screwing around with other people, and the fact that he's asking "what should a man do" is more of a PI OP than one suited for Humanities. Since he has posted it in this forum, and not in PI, I treated it as a Humanities discussion, and therefore not limited it to "what should a man do" (to be honest I'm surprised this wasn't moved to PI, given the language used).

Meanwhile, I asked a poster to explain if he/she could where this perception
that people in other countries are (more) OK with being cuckolded but you sort of keep getting in the way with a tangential argument.

I'm "getting in the way" am I? It's very easy to ignore people if you don't wish to engage with them in a discussion.

Any recent survey which invariably puts the UK at the top of the European infidelity league. It could of course just point to Britons being more honest about their indiscretions.

Could you cite one? I had a look around but didn't find any, perhaps I'm using the wrong search terms. I'm curious about the methodology used. I did find one article which stated that cheaters in France are more likely to have years-long relationships with their mistresses (or whatever you'd call a man that a married woman is cheating with - is there a word for that? there we go again with language and what it says about culture), while cheaters in the UK are more likely to have flings - which seems to back up some of Emme's statements.

I don't agree. People in some cultures, for some unfathomable reason, spend an inordinate amount of time wondering how many mistresses Ryan Giggs or Tiger Woods have had. Nobody is scandalised or gives a crap about any of the people involved; it's just some pathetic vicarious tittilation. What do you really know about how people view their spouses' philanderings in any country to form this opinion, let alone insinuate it as fact?

I don't think it's titillation at all. The way cheaters are treated in the media is simply an indication of the way adultery is viewed by that society. That seems fairly obvious to me. People don't read these articles to get a sexual thrill (wtf?) they read them because they are incensed by the situation, the same reason they read articles about murderers or kidnappers. Knowing that people who do unacceptable things are caught and are therefore not getting away with bad behavior is something that most people find reassuring.

As for what I know about how people view their own spouse's philanderings, I will say it again: I am talking about the way cheating is viewed by society in these areas. It differs by country, by region, etc. People in big cities are more tolerant of it, some cultures are more tolerant of it, etc. I'm not pulling this stuff out of thin air.

Scanlas The 2nd

Emme wrote: »

Back to the OP, if he doesn't love his GF enough now to see beyond the superficialities of an unlined face and a toned youthful body then he should let her go and give her the chance to find somebody who really cares about her. The men here can argue away about physical attractiveness being important, ok, yes it is, but if it's the only thing binding people together then their relationship is very poor and probably won't survive the first storm.

If a man has a strong desire to have sex with women he is physically attracted to he can't help that. It doesn't mean he doesn't care for or love his wife. It does pose a problem for men ( as I'm sure it does women) when they aren't attracted to their wives physically anymore and can't help having the urge to sleep with women they are attracted to. This is a real dilemma for men who don't want to leave there wives as they really do love them but still have to fight the sexual urges if they do decide to stay faithful.

Emme

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

If a man has a strong desire to have sex with women he is physically attracted to he can't help that. It doesn't mean he doesn't care for or love his wife. It does pose a problem for men ( as I'm sure it does women) when they aren't attracted to their wives physically anymore and can't help having the urge to sleep with women they are attracted to. This is a real dilemma for men who don't want to leave there wives as they really do love them but still have to fight the sexual urges if they do decide to stay faithful.

It's called commitment. I also say that if these men really loved their wives they would find it very difficult to sleep with another woman, even if they found her more physically attractive than their wives. Physical attraction is only one facet of a mature loving relationship. Unfortunately many relationships now are built mainly on physical attraction and people don't work hard enough on the other facets of being together. It's the other facets that keep a couple together when one partner finds somebody else more attractive than his or her partner.

You're not going to find each other hot all the time - partner will be sick, wrecked from work and women will more than likely have children at some stage. It's impossible for both partners in a relationship to be smoking hot all the time.

Scanlas The 2nd

Emme wrote: »

It's called commitment. I also say that if these men really loved their wives they would find it very difficult to sleep with another woman, even if they found her more physically attractive than their wives. Physical attraction is only one facet of a mature loving relationship. Unfortunately many relationships now are built mainly on physical attraction and people don't work hard enough on the other facets of being together. It's the other facets that keep a couple together when one partner finds somebody else more attractive than his or her partner.

You're not going to find each other hot all the time - partner will be sick, wrecked from work and women will more than likely have children at some stage. It's impossible for both partners in a relationship to be smoking hot all the time.

Yea I agree but it still throws up a difficult situation, the stronger the desire for sex with other women the more difficult it gets. For a man who finds suddenly finds himself with other women on the brain constantly and knowing he can't do anything about it for the rest of his life without ruing a family or marriage it could be depressing for that man.

gargleblaster

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Yea I agree but it still throws up a difficult situation, the stronger the desire for sex with other women the more difficult it gets. For a man who finds suddenly finds himself with other women on the brain constantly and knowing he can't do anything about it for the rest of his life without ruing a family or marriage it could be depressing for that man.

I don't know why people like this put themselves into the situation to begin with. Social pressure I suppose, or marrying in haste - but there is no law that says you have to commit to someone and start a family. I would not consider the type of person who constantly thinks about screwing other women to be the marrying type.

I don't think this kind of thing can happen suddenly. You're either the type to be a devoted lover or not. Only half the population seems to find monogamy such an awful, horrible, unnatural, pitiable, etc. situation. They really should just find partners who agree with them about it.

gargleblaster

gargleblaster wrote: »

I don't know why people like this put themselves into the situation to begin with. Social pressure I suppose, or marrying in haste - but there is no law that says you have to commit to someone and start a family. I would not consider the type of person who constantly thinks about screwing other women to be the marrying type.

I don't think this kind of thing can happen suddenly. You're either the type to be a devoted lover or not. Only half the population seems to find monogamy such an awful, horrible, unnatural, pitiable, etc. situation. They really should just find partners who agree with them about it.

People change, and a few others don't. Most of the marriages I know that have broken up have not been destroyed by being unfaithful or anything sinister. It was simply that one partner changed and the other didn't. The wife saw the husband as being the same as she married him for 10 years and suddenly realised one day that he had changed somewhere during their marriage. And she realised that she didn't want to be with him anymore.

Very few people stay the same as they were ten years previously. Considering the pressures involved in marriage, it changes people in different ways. There is no guarantee that the person you marry today will be as desirable from any perspective (physcial, psychological etc) in five years time.

I know this particular couple that have been married 5 years. The husband was a major playboy prior to marriage and even after they were married he flirted constantly. Then they had children, and he changed instantly into the devoted husband and father. The funny and somewhat sad thing is that the woman changed when he changed. She changed from a great girlfriend/wife into a major flirt. But they seem ok with the role reversal. If it works for them, great.

Nobody really understand why certain relationships work and others don't. Oh, we can throw out terms like personality clashes or such, but ultimately, each relationship will have to figure out itself if its going to work as time goes by.

gargleblaster

No argument there of course, all very true. That isn't what this thread is about, though. It's not about marriage and the many reasons they end or change. It's about men not finding their wives attractive sexually, and cheating vs. being depressed because they can't cheat - or just cheating in general if we want to be more equitable about the subject.

gargleblaster

gargleblaster wrote: »

No argument there of course, all very true. That isn't what this thread is about, though. It's not about marriage and the many reasons they end or change. It's about men not finding their wives attractive sexually, and cheating vs. being depressed because they can't cheat - or just cheating in general if we want to be more equitable about the subject.

No. The thread is about men and their mistresses. There is no specific reason as to why the seek companionship elsewhere. There are plenty of services out there which provide non-sexual services to married men seeking someone other than their wife.. In many ways, its a worse betrayal to give your emotional feelings to another person, than sex.

And I replied to what you posted about marriage and why people seek sex (or whatever) outside of marriage.

Although TBH I think the thread is rather sexist. The focus on men is stupid. Women cheat too. Women have their playboys. Why not discuss the topic in balance...?

cofy

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Yea I agree but it still throws up a difficult situation, the stronger the desire for sex with other women the more difficult it gets. For a man who finds suddenly finds himself with other women on the brain constantly and knowing he can't do anything about it for the rest of his life without ruing a family or marriage it could be depressing for that man.

How can it be sudden, I can't believe it's just like that. More than likely the husband has been neglecting his wife for so long that he cannot connect with her anymore. Nothing worse than feeling neglected, but certainly, not a reason to bring a third person into an all ready bad situation.

Scanlas The 2nd

cofy wrote: »

How can it be sudden, I can't believe it's just like that. More than likely the husband has been neglecting his wife for so long that he cannot connect with her anymore. Nothing worse than feeling neglected, but certainly, not a reason to bring a third person into an all ready bad situation.

A friend of mine was with his girlfriend for 6 years up until he finished college and never even considered cheating, then for some reason when he starts working he started cheating like a maniac, couldn't get enough of it. Although he has stopped now something suddenly flipped in his head that made him want to cheat.