Dawkins sounds off. Lots of atheists upset.

Kizzonian

is this serious? like is this actually a thing? do people actually care about this? maybe i dont understand what happened properly i dunno but this sounds like the most ridiculous topic i ever read about on boards.ie

MRBEAVER

George: (While preparing bicarb) She invites me up at twelve o clock at
night, for coffee. And I don't go up. "No thank you, I don't want coffee, it
keeps me up. Too late for me to drink coffee." I said this to her. People
this stupid shouldn't be allowed to live. I can't imagine what she must think
of me.

Jerry: She thinks you're a guy that doesn't like coffee.

George: She invited me up. Coffee's not coffee, coffee is sex.

Elaine: Maybe coffee was coffee.

George: Coffee's coffee in the morning, it's not coffee at twelve o clock at night.

tawnyowl

strobe wrote: »

I've seen American sitcoms. I was just pointing out that it wasn't as overt as asking 'want to get down and dirty'. I'm sure it was probably a round about proposition, but it was put forward in the most inoffensively worded way humanly imaginable.

The circumstances were also a factor:

• She said she was tired and wanted to go to her room.
• He said he wanted to have coffee with her. (Despite her saying she was tired.)
• It happened in a lift - quite enclosed.
• At 4am in the morning - not many people around then and CCTV might not be checked until morning.
• I think it was mentioned in one of the online discussions that she'd mentioned a problem with being hit on in email.
• I think there was also mention that he was with the group in the bar, but didn't talk to her then.

It's possible, though not likely, that he meant literally what he said. It's possible that he was propositioning her in a way he thought was non-threatening. It's possible that there was some other possibility.

Rebecca erred on the side of caution.

Kizzonian

tawnyowl wrote: »

The circumstances were also a factor:

• She said she was tired and wanted to go to her room.
• He said he wanted to have coffee with her. (Despite her saying she was tired.)
• It happened in a lift - quite enclosed.
• At 4am in the morning - not many people around then and CCTV might not be checked until morning.
• I think it was mentioned in one of the online discussions that she'd mentioned a problem with being hit on in email.
• I think there was also mention that he was with the group in the bar, but didn't talk to her then.

It's possible, though not likely, that he meant literally what he said. It's possible that he was propositioning her in a way he thought was non-threatening. It's possible that there was some other possibility.

Rebecca erred on the side of caution.

what are u insinuating? She was tired thats why he said coffee he didnt talk to her maybe he didnt have the courage there is absolutely nothing going on this is stupid wtf im leaving this thread now lol

Chuck Stone

OMFG I thought Richard Dawkins was infallible!

petebricquette

tawnyowl wrote: »

The circumstances were also a factor:

• She said she was tired and wanted to go to her room.
• He said he wanted to have coffee with her. (Despite her saying she was tired.)
• It happened in a lift - quite enclosed.
• At 4am in the morning - not many people around then and CCTV might not be checked until morning.
• I think it was mentioned in one of the online discussions that she'd mentioned a problem with being hit on in email.
• I think there was also mention that he was with the group in the bar, but didn't talk to her then.

It's possible, though not likely, that he meant literally what he said. It's possible that he was propositioning her in a way he thought was non-threatening. It's possible that there was some other possibility.

Rebecca erred on the side of caution.

Erred on the side of caution and now there's a huge furore over it. Regardless of her stance as a feminist, I see nothing in what the guy said for her or anyone to be upset over. Plenty of people get propositioned all of the time and because she's a public figure, it's a massive deal and sexism has come into it. Ridiculous.

With being famous comes these kinds of problems. The guy was probably just chancing his arm to spend a bit of time with someone he admired (as many have done before).

Regarding the bolded bit above: so bloody what? You're in the public eye; you'll occasionally have people flirting with you. If it were anyone else, it wouldn't even be an issue.

strobe

tawnyowl wrote: »

It's possible, though not likely, that he meant literally what he said. It's possible that he was propositioning her in a way he thought was non-threatening. It's possible that there was some other possibility.

I agree.





(that's just a wink btw, not a proposition. :pac:)

Turtwig

strobe wrote: »

That's very sexist Malty.

Happy Now?.:pac:

tawnyowl

petebricquette wrote: »

Erred on the side of caution and now there's a huge furore over it. Regardless of her stance as a feminist, I see nothing in what the guy said for her or anyone to be upset over. Plenty of people get propositioned all of the time and because she's a public figure, it's a massive deal and sexism has come into it. Ridiculous.

With being famous comes these kinds of problems. The guy was probably just chancing his arm to spend a bit of time with someone he admired (as many have done before).

Regarding the bolded bit above: so bloody what? You're in the public eye; you'll occasionally have people flirting with you. If it were anyone else, it wouldn't even be an issue.

Looking at http://skepchick.org/2011/07/the-privilege-delusion/ it seems the emails she complains of went way beyond flirting - there were even threats of rape. She probably considered the possibility that it might have been one of those emailers she met.

If fame is the factor, has Richard Dawkins had a similar experience?

strobe

Lol, Jesus Tapdancing Christ that's disturbing.

Someone PM Dave! STAT!

gypsy_rose

it sounds to me like she's just totally sick of men hitting on her when she's at a conference where she wants to be taken seriously and to feel equal with those around her.

i am guessing (though feel free to correct me if im wrong) that there are usually less women than men at these conferences and so the women there feel in a minority.

since we can assume that most people there are heterosexual men the majority of people there can assert their opinions and interact without having to worry that the other people are thinking about other things besides what they are talking to them about i.e. science stuff etc. so while i disagree that the guy who allegedly came onto her did anything wrong, i can see her frustration at the possibilty of being seen as someone to **** rather than as an equal scientific colleague.

and honestly, i may be attacked here, but men just don't understand how it feels to try to talk to a group of men and have them not take you seriously because you are a woman even though your opinions are just as good as theirs. sexism is really veiled and hidden in our society but it is still most definitly alive and well

gypsy_rose

i do find it a bit sad though, what if a man meets a woman he genuinely just wants to hang out and be friends with, can he not ask her to go somewhere without worrying that she thinks hes coming onto her?

strobe

gypsy_rose wrote: »

i do find it a bit sad though, what if a man meets a woman he genuinely just wants to hang out and be friends with, can he not ask her to go somewhere without worrying that she thinks hes coming onto her?

Well that's the other side of the 'sexism' coin you spoke about in the post above that. Meh.

Turtwig

strobe wrote: »

Lol, Jesus Tapdancing Christ that's disturbing.

Someone PM Dave! STAT!

I was tempted to add extra hair too to to armpits and legs. I decided however it was disturbing enough as it was.:D

amacachi

So that's why I was annoyed by women propositioning me. I wasn't quite sure but I suppose deep down I knew it was because it showed that they thought of me as a lower-status person.

amacachi

Heh, Schrodinger's rapist, I'll be using that.

MrStuffins

4 pages of posts in this thread! All because some bloke chanced his arm in a lift! Jaysus!

Jimmy Bottlehead

Is the world actually so mental that a guy can't hit on a girl without it being some sort of pseudo-sexist issue?!

If this IS to be deemed as sexist or misogynistic, then surely there's an epidemic of misogyny every night of the week, in every pub, club and bar the world over...

Rev Hellfire

Seems to me Dawkins nailed it. (no pun intended)

mickoneill30

robindch wrote: »

PZ blogged about it, Dawkins sounded off in the comments section, Watson went nuclear. And now, it's gone viral, even earning a post on Phil Plait's Bad Astronomy.

Now, I've no idea what happened in the elevator and I suspect that at least one of the participants had a few drinks aboard. But while Dawkin's initial sarcastic response was dumb and unhelpful, the ensuing mad fracas seems to be completely out of all proportion to what actually happened.

Anybody else been following this?

I'm probably missing something there. But it's a blog. One user has a name called Richard Dawkins, the post just before it is by chigau (happy) and the post before that is by "The Janine Is A Lonely Hunter, OM"

Is it possible at all that people are not using their real names on the comments section? Or is there any other reputable source saying this is real? If it was by Dawkins I'd imagine it'd be confirmed elsewhere.

Nodin

Galvasean wrote: »

So wait, it's sexism to proposition someone now?

Feck.

...to "sexually objectify" them, as she put it.

Personally I think that some people feel the need to hide their own insecurities and fears behind the facade of ideology, and the woman in question is one of them.

Hobbes

sink wrote: »

Amusing or not, it's a very poor argument, essentially it boils down to 'worse stuff happens, so you have no right to complain'.

I would of taken it as completely blowing it out of proportion. Someone asked her back to the room, she says no. End of story there.

MrStuffins

Is she related to this guy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crM_AmZxhmQ

fatmammycat

I have followed this story from the start; on the night in question Watson had already spoken of her dislike at being hit on at atheist conventions; it was 4 am in a hotel in a strange city, she said she was tired and going to bed, this man followed her into a lift and asked if she'd like to go back to his room for coffee- essentially hitting on her, the very thing she had spoken about previously. Rebecca then posted a very mild rebuke video saying , 'guys, dont do this' and what do ya know, **** storm. Because how dare a woman tell people that she is uncomfortable being propositioned in a lift at 4am by a stranger.
She didn't cry rape, she wasn't crying to the sisterhood, she was not over the top, she wasn't even that accusatory. She simply pointed out that is was an inappropiate thing to do.
I find it MOST telling that people are then keen to dismiss what she said in favour of what they think she said/meant. That was PZ's point all along, and Dawkins, in prattling on about how BAD it is elsewhere, misses the point in by a country mile.

EDIT: for the record, it wouldn't bother me if a man asked me for coffee at 4am, but I'm me, I'm not Rebecca Watson, Rebecca Watson is Rebecca Watson, and intitled to her view and her response without being sneered at or worse made out to be some kind of weird 'feminazi/man hater' for expressing said view or dismissed by Dawkins in such a tedious manner.

MrStuffins

fatmammycat wrote: »

I have followed this story from the start; on the night in question Watson had already spoken of her dislike at being hit on at atheist conventions; it was 4 am in a hotel i a strange city, she said she was tired and going to bed, this man followed her into a lift and asked if she's like to go back to his room for coffee- essentially hitting on her, the very thing she had spoken about previously. Rebecca then posted a very mild rebuke video saying , 'guys, dont do this' and what do ya know, **** storm. Because how dare a woman tell people that she is uncomfortable being propositioned in a lift at 4am by a stranger.
She didn't cry rape, she wasn't crying to the sisterhood, she was not over the top, she wasn't even that accusatory. She simply pointed out that is was an inappropiate thing to do.
I find it MOST telling that people are then keen to dismiss what she said in favour of what they think she said/meant. That was PZ's point all along, and Dawkins, in prattling on about how BAD it is elsewhere, misses the point in by a country mile.

Just because she doesn't like it, doesn't make it mysogonistic. She can say it's inappropriate but it doesn't make it so! Grabbing her boob would've been inappropriate. Asking her back for coffee? Not at all!

fatmammycat

Kizzonian wrote: »

is this serious? like is this actually a thing? do people actually care about this? maybe i dont understand what happened properly i dunno but this sounds like the most ridiculous topic i ever read about on boards.ie

Yes, people care. If you don't understand what happened who are you to judge how ridiculous the topic at hand?

MrStuffins

fatmammycat wrote: »

Yes, people care. If you don't understand what happened who are you to judge how ridiculous the topic at hand?

He said "maybe i don't understand.......". He them went on to say it was ridiculous.

Seems like he understands perfectly to me!

fatmammycat

MrStuffins wrote: »

Just because she doesn't like it, doesn't make it mysogonistic. She can say it's inappropriate but it doesn't make it so! Grabbing her boob would've been inappropriate. Asking her back for coffee? Not at all!

I didn't say anything being mysogonistic. Grabbing her boob would have been assault.

fatmammycat

MrStuffins wrote: »

He said "maybe i don't understand.......". He them went on to say it was ridiculous.

Seems like he understands perfectly to me!

If you don't understand a topic on what grounds do you dismiss it as ridiculous?

MrStuffins

fatmammycat wrote: »

I didn't say anything being mysogonistic. Grabbing her boob would have been assault.

No, SHE said it was mysogonistic. It's not mysogonistic at all.

But i'll concede this, having seen a picture of her I now think it was inappropriate for the guy to approach her. What was he thinking?