Dawkins sounds off. Lots of atheists upset.

fatmammycat

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

She certainly got that much bang on the money...

She sure did. Right, I have to get back to work or I'll be here all day in this bloomin' office.

King Mob

I'm assuming all these thanks I'm getting from the girls mean I'm totally in there, right? :pac:

amacachi

It's pretty easy for someone who is blowing something out of proportion to be right about the fact that others will disagree.

amacachi

King Mob wrote: »

I'm assuming all these thanks I'm getting from the girls mean I'm totally in there, right? :pac:

Well done, you just hit on them and therefore have shown your true colours in thinking that they're lower-status people.

Cavehill Red

fatmammycat wrote: »

Maybe it was a strange man hitting on her at 4am in a lift in a strange city...oh no wait, that's exactly what she said.

I thought she said she was invited for coffee and a chat?
But YOU say she was hit on. Let's explore this more, especially since you rejected my suggestion that she was trying to imply a predatory offer of sex. What do you mean by 'hit on', exactly?

mewso

I don't know this girl but I assume she is considered an intelligent person so I would be willing to give her the benefit of the doubt that this guy was making her uncomfortable but regardless it's impossible to know the exact circumstances. Dawkins was a bit OTT with his response and what has happened since is the real issue here as has been said already.

I don't see why people need to debate back and forth about whether this guy was out of line or not.

Most of the men are imagining a poor shy fella who drank one too many and for the first time in his life took a chance and took the knock-back like a man behaving like a perfect gentleman. Hes a hero ffs.

The ladies see a drunken lech who did his best to catch the girl alone in a location where she couldn't get away from him. A creep.

Mind you while reading the thread the overriding feeling I had was why do we need to have discussions on what it's like to be a female Atheist? Can Atheist Ireland organise a talk on what it's like to be a basket weaving Atheist next year? How about what it's like to be a male Atheist? It 'aint all sunshine and roses you know.

Ray Palmer

As a bloke I would not do this as it would be seen as creepy. I see her point completely. A confined space, late at night with either party under the influence. It really depends on what happened between the two in conversation prior to entering the lift. She seemed to suggest they hadn't spoken so it would be creepy IMHO.
To mention it in an open forum was inappropriate by her(did she name him?). To make it into such a big deal and suggest that people who don't see it as a problem are all misogynists is WAY over the top. She should grow a thicker skin and not be so sensitive.

I have never believed a feminism is about fair or equal treatment but the assumption men are conspiring against woman. Serious issues with anybody who accuse a language of having gender bias which should be changed.

There is always a problem when minority groups come together to be united. You simply get nut jobs

sensibleken

You think thats bad. never read the comments under youtube video.

That guy propositioning her in a lift is pretty bad form. Dawkins was just being a dick

Cavehill Red

Agreed, Mewso. I'll never get back either the half-hour I wasted reading about this woman's self-promotion, nor the further half-hour I wasted trying to point out to people on this board why this entire topic is a load of nonsense.
Outta here.

Monty Burnz

sink wrote: »

Amusing or not, it's a very poor argument, essentially it boils down to 'worse stuff happens, so you have no right to complain'. It's not even an argument it's simply dismissive.

Either the man who propositioned her in the elevator was wrong to do so, or he was not. Anything else is a red herring.

Good point.

But another day, another woman would be blogging that she was put out that somebody didn't invite her for coffee because he couldn't see her as a sexual being and a feminist, or some such. There really is nothing wrong in what the guy did, even if she didn't like it. Different folks/strokes - this isn't a feminist issue in my view, it's a personal one.

copeyhagen

your man had a wile of a horn on em, big deal

strobe

Hey, I skipped the last couple of pages there so maybe someone has addressed this already (?) but just to re-iterate what I said in a previous post:

It was PZ Meyers on his blog that went off an a bizarre 'propositioning a woman is misogynistic sexism of untold apocalyptic proportions!!!!!' rant. The girl Walters in question just said it made her feel uncomfortable and requested guys don't do it (at least in the video in question). While I think Walters feeling uncomfortable with men propositioning her is her issue to deal with and not any guys, she did not say it was misogyny or sexism, PZ did.

Dawkins post should probably have been leveled at Meyers, not Walters, and Walters annoyance should probably be with Meyers for misrepresenting what she said.

nozzferrahhtoo

fatmammycat wrote: »

That one will have to float about the ether of my brain for a spell , right I'd better get back to work, it's been interesting.

Seems you did not work long, You came back pretty fast

It is simple enough, I just mean that you are presenting as evidence (her side of the story) that which I am saying I have no evidence for (her side of the story). If someone asks you to substantiate a story, they are not asking you to repeat the story.

Ickle Magoo

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Good point.

But another day, another woman would be blogging that she was put out that somebody didn't invite her for coffee because he couldn't see her as a sexual being and a feminist, or some such. There really is nothing wrong in what the guy did, even if she didn't like it. Different folks/strokes - this isn't a feminist issue in my view, it's a personal one.

Approaching a woman you don't know in a lift at 4 am to come to your hotel room is not your average coffee invite...she said it made her uncomfortable, I think that's understandable given those specific circumstances.

mikhail

fatmammycat wrote: »

You do realise you don't always get to choose goole ads on sites, right?

You can block certain ads you find inappropriate for your site. The ads seem inappropriate for their message, but they may not know how to block them. I wouldn't draw any conclusions.

Monty Burnz

fatmammycat wrote: »

She said it made her uncomfortable.

Is anything that someone does that makes you uncomfortable morally wrong? I get uncomfortable when people eat with their mouths open. I also get uncomfortable when girls I hardly know tell me random stuff about their boyfriends. Where do I go for sympathy?

Monty Burnz

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Approaching a woman you don't know in a lift at 4 am to come to your hotel room is not your average coffee invite...she said it made her uncomfortable, I think that's understandable given those specific circumstances.

I'm not disagreeing with that - but it doesn't make the what the guy did 'wrong'. She didn't like it, but another person would have been flattered, and a third person would have gone with him and made sweet, sweet coffee all night long.

The guy might just have easily made the suggestion to another man if he was gay. I just can't see this as a feminist issue.

Galvasean

tawnyowl wrote: »

Asking someone back to your place for coffee is often the modern equivalent of "Would you like to see my etchings?"

Morgase wrote: »

Coffee in a hotel room at 4am = sex. Everybody knows this.

Oh noes, my female friends are always propositioning me and I've been too dumb to notice!
Actually, does this mean Robindch was propositioning me when he invited me out for a drink in another bar after the last skeptics in the pub meeting?
But honestly, asking someone around for a coffee while actually meaning coffee is not as unheard of as some would suggest. I don't know which the guy in the lift was looking for, but to say that a late night coffee offer from someone you've just met definitely means sex is just not correct.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

She stated she was tired and going to her room.

tawnyowl wrote: »

Didn't she say she was tired before she left the bar?

This can be every bit as much a pick up line as asking someone around for coffee. Personally, on more than one ocassion I've been out in bars chatting up to a woman, only for her to say something along the lines of, "Oh, I'm so tired. Think I'll go back to my apartment/house" (often while batting the eyelids). So you follow her out, hop in a taxi together, SHAZAM! She's got you in the sack. [/bragging]
Maybe that's what the guy thought the girl was doing when she said she was turning in for the night?

mikhail

This thread:

Ickle Magoo

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm not disagreeing with that - but it doesn't make the what the guy did 'wrong'. She didn't like it, but another person would have been flattered, and a third person would have gone with him and made sweet, sweet coffee all night long.

The guy might just have easily made the suggestion to another man if he was gay. I just can't see this as a feminist issue.

I don't think people acting out of self-interest or are unthinking are "wrong" - it was just inappropriate and made her feel uncomfortable. I think women who would take up a the offer of coffee in the hotel room of a stranger they just got into a lift with at 4 am would be in a distinct minority, tbh.

I don't think it is specifically a feminist issue either - beyond RW being a feminist...and perhaps how right she was that a lot of men wouldn't or couldn't understand why it made her so uncomfortable.

yawha

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I get uncomfortable when people eat with their mouths open.

If you make a blog post where you express your dislike for people eating with their mouths open and ask for people to stop doing it, are you expressing hatred for or denouncing the morals of people who do it?

mewso

Galvasean wrote: »

on more than one ocassion I've been out in bars chatting up to a woman, only for her to say something along the lines of, "Oh, I'm so tired. Think I'll go back to my apartment/house" (often while batting the eyelids). So you follow her out, hop in a taxi together, SHAZAM! She's got you in the sack.

Knew I was doing something wrong. Mental note: read between the lines do not say ok see ye.

Monty Burnz

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I don't think people acting out of self-interest or are unthinking are "wrong" - it was just inappropriate and made her feel uncomfortable. I think women who would take up a the offer of coffee in the hotel room of a stranger they just got into a lift with at 4 am would be in a distinct minority, tbh.

Perhaps in a minority - sure you wouldn't know with the fast women they have in 'Merica these days...

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I don't think it is specifically a feminist issue either - beyond RW being a feminist...and perhaps how right she was that a lot of men wouldn't or couldn't understand why it made her so uncomfortable.

I've no problem with her feeling uncomfortable, and can quite well understand it.

It's when someone tries to politicise this sort of thing that it gets a bit silly. I'd quite happily live in a world where women proposition men and take the (high) risk of rejection, and we sit back and reject or accept as we see fit - but I presume that men would be the bad guys in that world too for making the women do the chasing.

Monty Burnz

yawha wrote: »

If you make a blog post where you express your dislike for people eating with their mouths open and ask for people to stop doing it, are you expressing hatred for or denouncing the morals of people who do it?

Well, if I link it to the oppression of my gender and threats to rape me, then probably yes.

Ickle Magoo

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Perhaps in a minority - sure you wouldn't know with the fast women they have in 'Merica these days...

I think acting on the presumption that she may be one of those fast women they have in 'Merica might be the crux of the issue that made her uncomfortable, you know?

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I've no problem with her feeling uncomfortable, and can quite well understand it.

It's when someone tries to politicise this sort of thing that it gets a bit silly. I'd quite happily live in a world where women proposition men and take the (high) risk of rejection, and we sit back and reject or accept as we see fit - but I presume that men would be the bad guys in that world too for making the women do the chasing.

I don't recall anyone having said men shouldn't approach women or that women shouldn't also proposition men...

I think the point continually being missed in favour of a variety of strawmen and red-herrings is 4 am, in a lift, alone and a stranger probably isn't it the best time to do such propositioning - and may well make the lady you are propositioning feel uncomfortable. That is all - nothing more, nothing less. Why she felt uncomfortable and also why women are often uber safety concious is an already politicized topic.

yawha

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Well, if I link it to the oppression of my gender and threats to rape me, then probably yes.

But she didn't. All she did was express that it made her uncomfortable...

drg85

I'm wading into this a bit late on boards, but to be honest the whole issue irks me somewhat. The whole issue is a storm is a teacup I feel! Whatever about RW's reaction or over reaction if you think that, I'm more disappointed with the likes of PZ Myers and Bad astronomer thinking they have the right to lecture people on how to interact with women; at one stage they state all women are afraid of men.

I find this INSULTING to women - perhaps my friends are a poor sample group but when I asked my female friends if they were afraid of men, they answered in the negative. Secondly, being male or female is not a sole indicator of who you are; there are 3 billion men and women, all of whom are different. You cannot say "all women x" no more than you can say "all men x". It's a presumptious position which can be easily refuted. The implication that all men are threats to women is in itself sexist, and as someone who thinks we should strive towards gender equality, something I would reject.

The guy in question could merely have been socially inept, just friendly or clumsy - in any case, it was politely rebuffed. Rebecca Watson has the right to feel uncomfortable, but not the right to presume her feelings will be shared by the entirity of humans. Sorry if I'm rambling on this, it's such a minor issue. What I do feel is disgraceful is how Rebecca Watson handled a female student who challenged her - Stef McGraw - http://goo.gl/uygSF

To recap, it's out of proportion I feel. But when I suggested to science writer Ed Yong that perhaps the incident was overblown, he publically lambasted me on twitter and implied I was somehow sexist. I was mortified, and backed down - it was particularly hurtful when I'd spent my saturday protesting at the counter prochoice demo and had just blogged about it. Since then I've removed myself somewhat. Seems people can't be rational about issues of gender and it's too emotive for sense. I'm more disappointed that science writers I respect are equating critical analysis with sexism in these cases

King Mob

amacachi wrote: »

Well done, you just hit on them and therefore have shown your true colours in thinking that they're lower-status people.

Yup that's exactly what I did. The :pac: proves how serious I am. That's supposed to be me eating away at women's rights....:rolleyes:

Monty Burnz

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I think the point continually being missed in favour of a variety of strawmen and red-herrings is 4 am, in a lift, alone and a stranger probably isn't it the best time to do such propositioning - and may well make the lady you are propositioning feel uncomfortable. That is all - nothing more, nothing less.

This may be the point that you want to address. That does not mean that the politicisation of one person's feelings on one particular occasion is not a point that others are interested in.

And I would suggest that the propositioning of a near stranger at 4am after long drinking sessions in hotels is rather more common than the propositioning, stone cold sober, of people that are well known to each other, in the middle of the afternoon at the office. It's not like it was an unusual situation.

Monty Burnz

yawha wrote: »

But she didn't. All she did was express that it made her uncomfortable...

She does here. She suggests that Dawkin's dismissal of the 'episode' is all part of the same rape/oppression picture.