Women get paid less because they take more sick leave

crashvictim

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-14041959

It is very hard to see this man hounded out of his Job because he said some home truths. I for one agree with it but you are not allowed to say it out loud for fear of being called a sexist. When I worked (Finishing masters at the moment), there was six males and three Females. In my opinion the females were the less productive for a number of reasons, they took more sick days. The men took roughly less then one day each when I was working there, I remember the females being out on a regular occurance. Sometimes they had to go early for Dentist, Doctor appointments for Kids. Coming up to communion/confirmation they would be gone for long lunchs looking at clothes etc. Now that is my experience, others may have a different view. It is time for women to stop playing the sexism card and accept facts and get on with it.

"Who takes the most sick leave? Women do, in general," he said.

"Why? Because once a month they have sick problems. Not all of them, but some do.

"They have children that they have to take time off to go home and take leave of. Therefore it's their productivity. It's not their fault."

He continued: "I'm sorry, I don't like saying these things because it sounds like I'm sexist, but it's the facts of life."

Bloody Nipples

crashvictim wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-14041959

It is very hard to see this man hounded out of his Job because he said some home truths. I for one agree with it but you are not allowed to say it out loud for fear of being called a sexist. When I worked (Finishing masters at the moment), there was six males and three Females. In my opinion the females were the less productive for a number of reasons, they took more sick days. The men took roughly less then one day each when I was working there, I remember the females being out on a regular occurance. Sometimes they had to go early for Dentist, Doctor appointments for Kids. Coming up to communion/confirmation they would be gone for long lunchs looking at clothes etc. Now that is my experience, others may have a different view. It is time for women to stop playing the sexism card and accept facts and get on with it.

He got fired because he promoted the idea that women on their periods aren't good workers. Which is basically shíte.

RedXIV

i wouldn't really agree with that to be honest. If I were to label a demographic most likely to be out sick it'd be 20-25yr old males after a weekend on a lash.

thats just my experience though

crashvictim

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

He got fired because he promoted the idea that women on their periods aren't good workers. Which is basically shíte.

Whats your source on the info? or is it only your opinion. He did same some and not all.

crashvictim

RedXIV wrote: »

i wouldn't really agree with that to be honest. If I were to label a demographic most likely to be out sick it'd be 20-25yr old males after a weekend on a lash.

thats just my experience though

What is the average wage of a 20-25 year old in comparison to the average male. I dont know the figure but I bet you its a lot less. Is that ageism?

Bloody Nipples

crashvictim wrote: »

Whats your source on the info? or is it only your opinion. He did same some and not all.

Did you actually read the article you linked to?

Frank Black

Some of the reasons he gives are ridiculous. If people (women or men) have to take time off for doctors appointments or because kids are sick there should be the flexibility in the workplace to allow for this – therefore productivity loss should not be an issue.
I’ve worked in an office where some of the lads have come in on a Monday morning after their GAA team has won/been hammered in a less than productive mood, I'm sure it's the same in NZ.
TBH the real surprise is that someone in such a position would come out with these statements in a public forum – demonstrates poor judgment.

RedXIV

crashvictim wrote: »

What is the average wage of a 20-25 year old in comparison to the average male. I dont know the figure but I bet you its a lot less. Is that ageism?

no thats generally lack of experience

JamJamJamJam

crashvictim wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-14041959

It is very hard to see this man hounded out of his Job because he said some home truths. I for one agree with it but you are not allowed to say it out loud for fear of being called a sexist. When I worked (Finishing masters at the moment), there was six males and three Females. In my opinion the females were the less productive for a number of reasons, they took more sick days. The men took roughly less then one day each when I was working there, I remember the females being out on a regular occurance. Sometimes they had to go early for Dentist, Doctor appointments for Kids. Coming up to communion/confirmation they would be gone for long lunchs looking at clothes etc. Now that is my experience, others may have a different view. It is time for women to stop playing the sexism card and accept facts and get on with it.

I have never witnessed women being less productive than men when carrying out a particular task, so I think it's fair that they get paid the same rate for doing so.

I have no idea about whether women take more days leave than men, but if any man or woman spends fewer days at work, then being paid less is fair enough. But that should be a case-by-case thing. There should not be a 12% gap in the average pay for men and women. That's a lottt, like! I couldn't imagine that women spend 12% less time on average working than men doing the same tasks.

Sure, there are a couple of times when the 'sexism card' has been played wrongly. But in the majority of cases, including this as far as I can see it, there is definitely genuine sexism involved.

crashvictim

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

Did you actually read the article you linked to?

Did you? you more or less said that women who are on their periods are as productive as women who are not. I said whats your source, the BBC article has nothing to do with it. He said SOME women, not ALL women call in sick once a month due to problems with menstration.

Here is an article about Premenstrual syndrome, one of the preffects of that time of the month for women.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002474/

The most common physical symptoms include:

Abdominal fullness, feeling gaseous

Bloating of the abdomen

Breast tenderness

Clumsiness

Constipation or diarrhea

Food cravings

Headache

Less tolerance for noises and lights

Other symptoms include:

Confusion

Difficulty concentrating

Fatigue

Feelings of sadness or hopelessness (See also: Premenstrual dysphoric disorder)

Feelings of tension, anxiety, or edginess

Forgetfulness

Irritable, hostile, or aggressive behavior, with outbursts of anger toward self or others

Loss of sex drive (may be increased in some women)

Mood swings

Poor judgment

Poor self-image, feelings of guilt, or increased fears

Sleep problems (sleeping too much or too little)

Slow, sluggish, lethargic movement

The fact is this man was hounded out of a job for stating what is a known fact.

MitchKoobski

crashvictim wrote: »

It is very hard to see this man hounded out of his Job because he said some home truths. I for one agree with it but you are not allowed to say it out loud for fear of being called a sexist. When I worked (Finishing masters at the moment), there was six males and three Females. In my opinion the females were the less productive for a number of reasons, they took more sick days. The men took roughly less then one day each when I was working there, I remember the females being out on a regular occurance. Sometimes they had to go early for Dentist, Doctor appointments for Kids. Coming up to communion/confirmation they would be gone for long lunchs looking at clothes etc. Now that is my experience, others may have a different view. It is time for women to stop playing the sexism card and accept facts and get on with it.

You cannot be serious.

ANYONE would have to leave for the dentist.
Fathers would be just as likely to leave for Doctor's appointments.
Going on long lunches to look at clothes? I assume they'd be taking the kids out of class for that as well then? Any normal person does it on the weekend, after school or on a day off.

whydoibother?

crashvictim wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-14041959
Sometimes they had to go early for Dentist, Doctor appointments for Kids. Coming up to communion/confirmation they would be gone for long lunchs looking at clothes etc. Now that is my experience, others may have a different view. It is time for women to stop playing the sexism card and accept facts and get on with it.

Yes, but why were all these kid-related issues being dealt with by women? These kids have fathers presumably. Why don't we see men taking half the necessary kid-related days off? Because they typically have female partners who are willing to put up with making all the career-related sacrifices for the kids.

crashvictim

MitchKoobski wrote: »

You cannot be serious.

ANYONE would have to leave for the dentist.
Fathers would be just as likely to leave for Doctor's appointments.
Going on long lunches to look at clothes? I assume they'd be taking the kids out of class for that as well then? Any normal person does it on the weekend, after school or on a day off.

I'm telling you my experience. But generally women bring their children to the dentist, doctor etc. Its not their fault, its their motherly instinct. Yet they whinge about wage inequality when they clearly cant give the same commitment as men to the job. Wheter that will be by giving birth, being sick once a month etc etc.

Bloody Nipples

crashvictim wrote: »

Did you? you more or less said that women who are on their periods are as productive as women who are not. I said whats your source, the BBC article has nothing to do with it. He said SOME women, not ALL women call in sick once a month due to problems with menstration.

Here is an article about Premenstrual syndrome, one of the preffects of that time of the month for women.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002474/



The fact is this man was hounded out of a job for stating what is a known fact.

Great in that case you'll know that only 2-5% of women suffer from significant symptoms. And in regards your link

The head of a major New Zealand employers' group has been fired after he caused public outrage by linking women's productivity to menstruation.

Alasdair Thompson of the Employers' and Manufacturers' Association made his comments on a radio show last month.

Mr Thompson said women were paid less than men because they took more sick leave and "have children they have to take time off to go home" to care for.

Prime Minister John Key said Mr Thompson's dismissal was inevitable.

"I don't think it's surprising," Mr Key told reporters. "In the end that's a matter for EMA, but I'm not shocked by it."

Asked if the decision took too long, Mr Key said employment matters were often complex and it was as matter for the EMA.

"But in the end this situation he got himself into didn't look like it was sustainable."

'Brain explosion'
Mr Thompson's comments were made during a NewstalkZB interview on 23 June, during a debate on recent figures that showed New Zealand women were paid about 12% less than men.

"Who takes the most sick leave? Women do, in general," he said.

"Why? Because once a month they have sick problems. Not all of them, but some do.

"They have children that they have to take time off to go home and take leave of. Therefore it's their productivity. It's not their fault."

He continued: "I'm sorry, I don't like saying these things because it sounds like I'm sexist, but it's the facts of life."

Mr Thompson later apologised for his comments.

Minister of Labour Kate Wilkinson described the comments at the time as a "brain explosion".

Women's Affairs Minister Hekia Parata said on Wednesday that people would be pleased there had been a resolution.

"I think that it's been pretty clear from the response that the remarks made were unacceptable to a wide range of people and my own experience of talking to businesses and across the country is it was a generally felt view that they were unacceptable," she said.

crashvictim

whydoibother? wrote: »

Yes, but why were all these kid-related issues being dealt with by women? These kids have fathers presumably. Why don't we see men taking half the necessary kid-related days off? Because they typically have female partners who are willing to put up with making all the career-related sacrifices for the kids.

Bingo, well done. Yet when the CEO of a company points it out, he gets hounded out of a job.

Dravokivich

whydoibother? wrote: »

Yes, but why were all these kid-related issues being dealt with by women? These kids have fathers presumably. Why don't we see men taking half the necessary kid-related days off? Because they typically have female partners who are willing to put up with making all the career-related sacrifices for the kids.

So as well as generalising women, we've got unfounded generalisations of men here now as well?

Bloody Nipples

crashvictim wrote: »

I'm telling you my experience. But generally women bring their children to the dentist, doctor etc. Its not their fault, its their motherly instinct. Yet they whinge about wage inequality when they clearly cant give the same commitment as men to the job. Wheter that will be by giving birth, being sick once a month etc etc.

Thankfully your experience isn't going to inform government policy.

Mr. Presentable

Question: In a 20 year career how many hours will a typical male work?

Question: In a 20 year career how many hours will a typical female doing the same job as the male above work?

It is not correct to simply compare productivity during attendance and say wages should be equal. A study of doctors in the US published in 2006 showed that over the period of internship males had worked 35% more hours than females. Should they get the same wages because they were in the same workplace for the same number of years?
Edit: Can't find the link now

whydoibother?

crashvictim wrote: »

Bingo, well done. Yet when the CEO of a company points it out, he gets hounded out of a job.

So, what we're really saying then is that women should be less "willing". If they want equal pay, they should tell whoever fathered the child that he has to do half the dentists/doctors visits etc.

Cat Melodeon

crashvictim wrote: »

I'm telling you my experience. But generally women bring their children to the dentist, doctor etc. Its not their fault, its their motherly instinct. Yet they whinge about wage inequality when they clearly cant give the same commitment as men to the job. Wheter that will be by giving birth, being sick once a month etc etc.

I've never in my life rang in sick because I had my period. I did it once for a hangover when I was 24, that's about it. I take turns with my husband to take time off for kid's appointments, that's called being a responsible parent, not the maternal instinct. I'm sure there are some women who take the piss, equally there are plenty of men who do so too. You do talk a load of tosh.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Men having less appointments may well be true. Not because of periods, but because men tend to be ignorant of health and ignore symptoms. Though in the long run this could perhaps lead to longer time off. Stitch in time saves nine and all that.

Are there no official statistics on this?

whydoibother?

Dravokivich wrote: »

So as well as generalising women, we've got unfounded generalisations of men here now as well?

I wasn't referring to all men. I was referring to the ones in the OP's example - they particular type who don't take the same amount of time off as their partners. That's why I said "typically".

Mr. Presentable

whydoibother? wrote: »

Yes, but why were all these kid-related issues being dealt with by women? These kids have fathers presumably. Why don't we see men taking half the necessary kid-related days off? Because they typically have female partners who are willing to put up with making all the career-related sacrifices for the kids.

And fair play to them, but this simply reaffirms the fact that women do fewer hours - for whatever reason - so over a career are less productive to an employer.

Bloody Nipples

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

Question: In a 20 year career how many hours will a typical male work?

Question: In a 20 year career how many hours will a typical female doing the same job as the male above work?

It is not correct to simply compare productivity during attendance and say wages should be equal. A study of doctors in the US published in 2006 showed that over the period of internship males had worked 35% more hours than females. Should they get the same wages because they were in the same workplace for the same number of years?
Edit: Can't find the link now

Surely that would be 35% on average? Why would you penalise all women based on that evidence? And doctors (in Ireland anyway) work far more hours than they get paid for.

crashvictim

whydoibother? wrote: »

So, what we're really saying then is that women should be less "willing". If they want equal pay, they should tell whoever fathered the child that he has to do half the dentists/doctors visits etc.

Maybe if they want a career, a very successful career. They shouldnt have kids. The moment they have kids they forfeit that right and all the benefits that come with it. They have commitments, and female DNA will dictate that they assume responsibility for the rearing of the child.

Bloody Nipples

crashvictim wrote: »

Maybe if they want a career, a very successful career. They shouldnt have kids. The moment they have kids they forfeit that right and all the benefits that come with it. They have commitments, and female DNA will dictate that they assume responsibility for the rearing of the child.

This is just laughable now.

Mr. Presentable

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

I've never in my life rang in sick because I had my period. I did it once for a hangover when I was 24, that's about it. I take turns with my husband to take time off for kid's appointments, that's called being a responsible parent, not the maternal instinct. I'm sure there are some women who take the piss, equally there are plenty of men who do so too. You do talk a load of tosh.

Good for you. But you don't represent all women, so cannot use yourself to diminish another's point of view

JuliusCaesar

crashvictim wrote: »

But generally women bring their children to the dentist, doctor etc. .... its their motherly instinct.

and the lack of fatherly instinct that allows fathers NOT to consult doctors/dentists when their children are ill/toothachey???

crashvictim wrote: »

Yet they whinge about wage inequality when they clearly cant give the same commitment as men to the job. Wheter that will be by giving birth, being sick once a month etc etc.

How often in a lifetime will most women give birth and take maternity leave?

Does EVERY woman suffer from pre-menstrual tension? Do they take the full 5 days off every month? Jeez! Cripes, hospitals full of nurses must surely almost close down with the short-staffing, and schools with all the teachers. If I lived in the same planet as you, crashvictim, it'd be a national crisis.

crashvictim

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

Surely that would be 35% on average? Why would you penalise all women based on that evidence? And doctors (in Ireland anyway) work far more hours than they get paid for.

You have it in your head that I want to penalise women because of the average. In new Zealand women are paid on average 12% less then men. It does not mean all women are paid 12% less then men, some are paid higher and some are paid lower. The ones who are paid lower I assume will have families to look after, hormonal problems, problems with menstruation etc.

Frank Black

The most common physical symptoms include:

• Abdominal fullness, feeling gaseous

• Bloating of the abdomen

• Breast tenderness

• Clumsiness

• Constipation or diarrhea

• Food cravings

• Headache

• Less tolerance for noises and lights

• Other symptoms include:

• Confusion

• Difficulty concentrating

• Fatigue

• Feelings of sadness or hopelessness (See also: Premenstrual dysphoric disorder)

• Feelings of tension, anxiety, or edginess

• Forgetfulness

• Irritable, hostile, or aggressive behavior, with outbursts of anger toward self or others

• Loss of sex drive (may be increased in some women)

• Mood swings

• Poor judgment

• Poor self-image, feelings of guilt, or increased fears

• Sleep problems (sleeping too much or too little)

• Slow, sluggish, lethargic movement

This is a normal day for me.

Dravokivich

whydoibother? wrote: »

So, what we're really saying then is that women should be less "willing". If they want equal pay, they should tell whoever fathered the child that he has to do half the dentists/doctors visits etc.

You said:

"Why don't we see men taking half the necessary kid-related days off? Because they typically"

Cat Melodeon

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

Good for you. But you don't represent all women, so cannot use yourself to diminish another's point of view

Nor can you use quotes that you cannot link to, nor does any of what crashvictim is presenting as FACT (female DNA = less productivity???) have any grounding in reality whatsoever.

Mr. Presentable

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

Surely that would be 35% on average? Why would you penalise all women based on that evidence? And doctors (in Ireland anyway) work far more hours than they get paid for.

Of course it should be on a case by case basis. Agreed. But we, and the foot in mouth politician, are dealing in generalisations. Averages, if you will.

crashvictim

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

and the lack of fatherly instinct that allows fathers NOT to consult doctors/dentists when their children are ill/toothachey???



How often in a lifetime will most women give birth and take maternity leave?

Does EVERY woman suffer from pre-menstrual tension? Do they take the full 5 days off every month? Jeez! Cripes, hospitals full of nurses must surely almost close down with the short-staffing, and schools with all the teachers. If I lived in the same planet as you, crashvictim, it'd be a national crisis.

Your another one who cant read what I wrote, and also what the former CEO of that New Zealand company wrote. SOME women NOT ALLwomen take sick leave because of period problems. I also said ONE of the issues is pre menstrual tension ONE again in bold. There are more.

whydoibother?

Dravokivich wrote: »

You said:

"Why don't we see men taking half the necessary kid-related days off? Because they typically"

Yes, I think that's a fair statement. It implied that more women than men take time off for their children. Do you really dispute that?

"They typically" implies that this does not apply to all men. Where's the logic flaw?

Mr. Presentable

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

Nor can you use quotes that you cannot link to, nor does any of what crashvictim is presenting as FACT (female DNA = less productivity???) have any grounding in reality whatsoever.

So you accept my point then?

Cat Melodeon

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

So you accept my point then?

Why wouldn't I? I never claimed to represent half of humanity, just proved there is at least one exception to the OPs claims.

Bloody Nipples

crashvictim wrote: »

You have it in your head that I want to penalise women because of the average. In new Zealand women are paid on average 12% less then men. It does not mean all women are paid 12% less then men, some are paid higher and some are paid lower. The ones who are paid lower I assume will have families to look after, hormonal problems, problems with menstruation etc.

No those statistics mean for every $1 a man earns a woman will earn 88 cents, it doesn't mean that women earn less because they work less (http://www.neon.org.nz/eeoissues/payequity/). The dispute is that women are paid less for the same amount of work done. Then this gentleman, Alasdair Thompson, said ""Who takes the most sick leave? Women do, in general," he said.

"Why? Because once a month they have sick problems. Not all of them, but some do."

Then he rightly got fired. Get it?

crashvictim

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

Why wouldn't I? I never claimed to represent half of humanity, just proved there is at least one exception to the OPs claims.

Just what are my claims, I agree with the former CEO that some and not all of women take the piss with sick leave, taking time off for the kids, maternity leave etc. How about Sean Quinns daughter who was off for a full year before being let go. This is the reason why men earn more then women.

whydoibother?

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

Why wouldn't I? I never claimed to represent half of humanity, just proved there is at least one exception to the OPs claims.

I've never known a woman who took time off for that reason. I believe that only a small percentage of women would have such difficulty in regard that that they would need time off work. I also believe that if they did they would find it highly embarrassing to say that that was the reason, so I don't know how these reports would come about.

crashvictim

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

No those statistics mean for every $1 a man earns a woman will earn 88 cents, it doesn't mean that women earn less because they work less (http://www.neon.org.nz/eeoissues/payequity/). The dispute is that women are paid less for the same amount of work done. Then this gentleman, Alasdair Thompson, said ""Who takes the most sick leave? Women do, in general," he said.

"Why? Because once a month they have sick problems. Not all of them, but some do."

Then he rightly got fired. Get it?

A quick question are you male or female. Are you a professional or a student. I think you are extremely biased in your views.

Bloody Nipples

crashvictim wrote: »

A quick question are you male or female. Are you a professional or a student. I think you are extremely biased in your views.

I'm a male masters student like yourself. And I'm not biased, I'm right.

crashvictim

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

I'm a male masters student like yourself.

So do you have any experience in the working environment?

Bloody Nipples

crashvictim wrote: »

So do you have any experience in the working environment?

I've done a 6 month work placement as part of my masters. I also worked in dunnes stores for 2 and a half years. And I still think you're posting crap.

jayteecork

Women barstaff are ten times slower and don't have to lift kegs/do the stock.
They also don't have to deal with unruly customers.

Fact.

They get paid the same though.

I could care less though, certainly wouldn't be spouting my views if I was the head of some large union or employment agency or whatever that Kiwi was/

Bloody Nipples

jayteecork wrote: »

Women barstaff are ten times slower and don't have to lift kegs/do the stock.
They also don't have to deal with unruly customers.

Fact.

They get paid the same though.

Have to deal with getting hit on by drunk dopes though. And I've never noticed female bar staff being any slower. Pour pint, serve pint, no?

jayteecork

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

Have to deal with getting hit on by drunk dopes though. And I've never noticed female bar staff being any slower. Pour pint, serve pint, no?

Trust me when the bar gets busy then stay in second gear with their heads down finishing one order before they move on.

Men tend to run about taking 4-5 orders at once.

I worked in bars for like ages 16-23. I know.

I don't give a **** as such but when I'm breaking my back on kegs while women are nattering to customers it gets bit annoying.

crashvictim

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

I've done a 6 month work placement as part of my masters. I also worked in dunnes stores for 2 and a half years. And I still think you're posting crap.

You are perfectly entitled to your opinions but I am of the opinion that you are wrong. Wait till your working five or six years. When your female colleagues start having Kids, when you have deadlines to meet, working late with your male colleagues and the females have had to go home to pick up the kids etc etc (Happened more then once) see what your opinion is. Some females are brilliant, however some are not.

Bloody Nipples

Worst worker I ever knew was a guy. That's about as much evidence as anyone else here has provided, so I shall decide that men are worse workers than women.

crashvictim

Here is one. On boards.ie in the work problems forum, there is a female who is complaining about heavy lifting. They are certain limits set out for how much a female lift and how much a male can lift. The male can lift more, yet females still expect to be paid the same?

Bloody Nipples

crashvictim wrote: »

You are perfectly entitled to your opinions but I am of the opinion that you are wrong. Wait till your working five or six years. When your female colleagues start having Kids, when you have deadlines to meet, working late with your male colleagues and the females have had to go home to pick up the kids etc etc (Happened more then once) see what your opinion is. Some females are brilliant, however some are not.

And some men are brilliant and some are not. No one here has any actual hard evidence that women deserve to be paid less than men and on that I'm 100% sure that more than half the population will agree with me on that. In which case I shall declare victory and bid you good night gentlemen.