advice on mini ITX case

Stoner

It's upgrade the media centre time again. I'm thinking very strongly of this ASUS AMD 350 MB/processor combo as I like the heatsink and the onboard HDMI

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/asus-e35m1-i-deluxe-amd-hudson-m1-amd-zacate-18w-pci-e-20-(x16)-ddr31066-sata-6gb-s-mini-itx

I think the price for the cases is a little high, I'm going to have it behind the TV but not touching, it will be out of sight so i don't really mind about the looks, i can just be slim, I did see a cheap one on ebay but I'm asking if there is a place to pick up a cheap mini itx case with a PSU nothing fancy, they seem expensive for what they are.

thanks all.

Alun

I have just built a small HTPC with that board and it's great, but in a case with a fair number of ventilation holes I'm getting some quite high CPU temps, sometimes edging over 70 degrees, so I've ordered a case fan to try and get them down a bit. The case is this one http://www4.hardwareversand.de/articledetail.jsp?aid=24396&agid=1199 but it wouldn't really be suited to placing behind the TV I don't think. I was fairly limited because I wanted a small (i.e. less than microATX sized), and cheap case that also had room for a PCIe card for the satellite tuner, and there aren't that many around. Note that the pictures on the site aren't too accurate .. there's a large area of ventilation holes in the top of the case just above where the MB goes.

There are so-called VESA cases that are specifically designed to be mounted on the back of flat screen monitors/TV's like this one for example http://mini-itx.com/store/?c=54 They're not pretty either, but then if they're hidden from view that isn't a factor.

Antigrav

Alun wrote: »

There are so-called VESA cases that are specifically designed to be mounted on the back of flat screen monitors/TV's like this one for example http://mini-itx.com/store/?c=54 They're not pretty either, but then if they're hidden from view that isn't a factor.

I used the M350 for my HTPC with the ASUS AT310NT-I Mobo and SSD for totally silent operation. Runs really cool, even when playing HD mkv's :cool:

Alun

Antigrav wrote: »

I used the M350 for my HTPC with the ASUS AT310NT-I Mobo and SSD for totally silent operation. Runs really cool, even when playing HD mkv's :cool:

What kinds of temps are you seeing out of interest?

Vic Vinegar

Alun wrote: »

The case is this one http://www4.hardwareversand.de/articledetail.jsp?aid=24396&agid=1199

That only has a 60W psu. Is that gonna be ok for all the hardware you have in it? i'm thinking of buliding one with that as the case.

Alun

Bombleswizzum wrote: »

That only has a 60W psu. Is that gonna be ok for all the hardware you have in it? i'm thinking of buliding one with that as the case.

I put a power monitor on the mains side and it draws on average 30W when watching movies and 40-45W when watching live TV (DVB-T) so it seems to be adequate to me. I guess the reason why live TV consumes more is because it is constantly writing to the HD for the live TV buffer.

All I have in it is the MB itself, 4GB RAM, a Samsung EcoGreen 1TB drive and a TeVii S480 dual DVB-S2 tuner card (not actually being used at the moment) plus a USB DVB-T stick.

EDIT: Only 3-4W in standby (S3 sleep) too which is good.

Vic Vinegar

Alun wrote: »

I put a power monitor on the mains side and it draws on average 30W when watching movies and 40-45W when watching live TV (DVB-T) so it seems to be adequate to me. I guess the reason why live TV consumes more is because it is constantly writing to the HD for the live TV buffer.

All I have in it is the MB itself, 4GB RAM, a Samsung EcoGreen 1TB drive and a TeVii S480 dual DVB-S2 tuner card (not actually being used at the moment) plus a USB DVB-T stick.

EDIT: Only 3-4W in standby (S3 sleep) too which is good.

Ok, that's probably what i'd have in my build (minus the tuner card)

Do you have a mobo that has a cpu built in?

Alun

I'm using the ASUS E35M1-I Deluxe.

Vic Vinegar

Alun wrote: »

I'm using the ASUS E35M1-I Deluxe.

Does that play 720p video files perfectly?

I like the look of that one, really good price too and probably won't need a seperate graphics card.

Alun

Bombleswizzum wrote: »

Does that play 720p video files perfectly?

Yes, the driver for the built-in graphics supports DXVA so some decoding tasks can be offloaded to the GPU. I see average CPU loads of only around 10-15% when playing 720p MKV's.

Vic Vinegar

Alun wrote: »

Yes, the driver for the built-in graphics supports DXVA so some decoding tasks can be offloaded to the GPU. I see average CPU loads of only around 10-15% when playing 720p MKV's.

That's brilliant, definitely getting that then.

Stoner

thanks for the advice lads, i was away from the PC but reading them all the same, great info

Stoner

http://www.jcp-tech.de/en/products/mini-itx/id/39140.html

this is the same price on that site and a little smaller if you have no cards to add.


Did you buy the delux MB on scan too, or did you get it at a better price somewhere else

i see it here

http://www2.atelco.de/articledetail.jsps?aid=43593&img=1

Alun

I got everything on hardwareversand.de. Lot's of people over on the 'PC Building & Upgrading' forum seem to get a lot of their stuff there. Only odd thing (for Ireland anyway, it's very common in Germany) is that you have to pay up front via bank transfer, but it all went very smoothly.

I see that the MB is actually cheaper now than when I bought mine http://www1.hardwareversand.de/articledetail.jsp?aid=43593&agid=1660

By the way, regarding the temperatures, I had a hunt around on Google and it would appear that the E350 processor is actually designed to run a lot hotter than most current desktop processors, up to 90 degrees according to AMD themselves! Despite that I still installed the fan I got, and the result is that CPU temps are now down to 42 degrees on average under full load. That's with the fan mounted above the MB and drawing air upwards, i.e. in the same direction as natural convection. It's being controlled by the ASUS Fan Xpert s/w and is usually only running at about half speed and is barely noticeable if you hold your hand above the case holes, and you can't hear it at all. This is it BTW http://www.quietpc.com/ie-en-eur/products/casefans/slipstream-120-slim-1200. The hole spacing of the holes in the top of the case match up with the mounting holes, so it's easy to fit. Only snag is the screws fit from above so are visible, so I might replace them with some black ones at some stage.

Stoner

ok so i bought the parts, don't laugh at the case, i bough two delivered for 27 pounds, it will be hidden

Case

http://cgi.ebay.ie/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140569366309&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_2971wt_1140

MB
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/asus-e35m1-i-deluxe-amd-hudson-m1-amd-zacate-18w-pci-e-20-(x16)-ddr31066-sata-6gb-s-mini-itx

SSD

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/60gb-ocz-agility-3-ssd-25-sata-6gb-s-sandforce-2281-read-525mb-s-write-475mb-s-50k-iops

RAM

http://www.memoryc.com/computermemory/ddr3/8gbgskillddr3pc31333mhzripjawseries.html

I'll stick Win 7 home premium 64 on it.

Looking forward to silent operation.:)

Will just need a nice bluetooth keyboard for it now, but I have been using win remote on my android as a mouse and keyboard over wifi, it's good, there might be better though, but its free.

Stoner

i got one of those cases today, it's a lot bigger than i expected, not really what i wanted, pity should have read about it more my own fault

Gatster

Does anyone know if this MB could handle live TV through Windows MC (Windows 7)?

Alun

Gatster wrote: »

Does anyone know if this MB could handle live TV through Windows MC (Windows 7)?

Sorry, only just seen this ... yes it can.

Carter P Fly

If you are using an SSD and watching a lot of Live TV then you shoudl look into using a RAM disk instead of the SSD for that buffer.

Basically its creating a disk using your RAM instead of your SSD as SSD'd are awesome when it comes to reads but really can suffer from a lot of continuous writes. I also have the pagefile disabled on my SSD completly and have no problem with this setup even though the merits of this is hotly debated.

Alun

I'm not using an SSD and it works just fine thanks.

Carter P Fly

Alun wrote: »

I'm not using an SSD and it works just fine thanks.

That's great, if completly irrelevent to anything as the comment was directed at stoner and the other poster who reccomended using a SSD.

Stoner

Carter P Fly wrote: »

If you are using an SSD and watching a lot of Live TV then you shoudl look into using a RAM disk instead of the SSD for that buffer.

Basically its creating a disk using your RAM instead of your SSD as SSD'd are awesome when it comes to reads but really can suffer from a lot of continuous writes. I also have the pagefile disabled on my SSD completly and have no problem with this setup even though the merits of this is hotly debated.

that's a good point. I have 8Gb of ram, I also have a wired network and I map a drive on my media pcs to the NAS. Point take with respect to the page file, I think that reducing writes to the SSD will prolong its life.

How did you go about setting up the RAM dive, I can google it and do it if you dont have the time to answer but if you have it up and running you could save me the time you spent selecting the best method .
I didn't know that the page file can write to a RAM drive, thank you.

Alun

Carter P Fly wrote: »

That's great, if completly irrelevent to anything as the comment was directed at stoner and the other poster who reccomended using a SSD.

No need to get annoyed. The way you posted (i.e. no quoting of a previous post, or a direct reference to a particular poster) made it look like your reply was a direct reply to my post.

Gatster

Alun wrote: »

Sorry, only just seen this ... yes it can.

Cheers for that - are you running Live TV through Windows (7) MC? Could this board cope with it as well, could save myself a few bob? Going to use my SATA III SSD, 8gb RAM, external drive for recorded TV and everything else on the NAS. If all goes well it will be on pretty much all the time.

Alun

Gatster wrote: »

Cheers for that - are you running Live TV through Windows (7) MC?

Yes, I am. It uses a little more CPU than when playing downloaded movies as they are usually progressive whereas live tv is interlaced. Some of the deinterlacing is offloaded to the GPU by DXVA, so it's not a huge burden. I average only 10-20% CPU when watching 720p movies, but that goes up to 30-40% when watching RTE2 on Saorview which is 1080i, and a bit less on the SD channels. I haven't got my satellite dish set up yet, so can't test that yet.

Could this board cope with it as well, could save myself a few bob? Going to use my SATA III SSD, 8gb RAM, external drive for recorded TV and everything else on the NAS. If all goes well it will be on pretty much all the time.

I can see no reason why not, it's the same AMD E-350 APU (CPU/GPU) as in my board. The ASUS board has built-in WiFi and Bluetooth, plus that hefty heatpipe cooler probably adds a bit of cost.

Gatster

Thanks for that - I'll be using my TBS6981 card for the satellite, need to measure up for that case. Just don't have the time for gaming so my current rig will be parted out once I get this built.

Stoner

yeah I agree that there is added cost, but to be honest i thank that the silent operation from the heat pipe is worth the extra few bob, it's a lovely fit.

I note that the SSD i bought on scan is only 100 euro on Dabs today as an offer.

Gatster

Just on the live tv bit, I'd be watching this on a 50" plasma as opposed to a pc monitor, couldmit still cope, I'll probably go for the silent MB.

Stoner

I'm sure Alun can advise on his set up, but as far as I'm concerned the specs indicate that it will not have an issue. However will your Plasma be able to handle it? my old 42 inch panny was not able for my current media PC.
As you know the great thing about the PCI-E expansion option IMHO is that we can upgrade the graphics in a couple of years if things get more difficult for the onboard processors. I got an extra couple of years out of my shuttle by adding a passive card when it was not able to deliver the more demanding media, and last year i upgraded another machine with a passive ATI HD5450, it gave me 1GB of ddr3 ram and decent HD TV options for only €50.

Gatster

Yeah it's fine running with the GTS450 in the current setup. The pci-e slot will be taken up by the dvb-s2 owing to the fact I can't get a dual tuner USB setup, but they may appear down the line which may free it up.

Don't know why I specced up a gaming rig instead of this sort of set up

Stoner

that's exactly what I did before, it was a long time ago now but I ended up with a 2K gaming machine that sounded like a hoover, so I bought the shuttle, I have to say media PCs are the best value PCs IMHO, I get huge value from them.

I'm using win remote on my android phone as a wifi mouse and keyboard, it's not bad, free and the range is as good as the router.

Alun

Gatster wrote: »

Just on the live tv bit, I'd be watching this on a 50" plasma as opposed to a pc monitor, couldmit still cope, I'll probably go for the silent MB.

What's important is what resolution you're driving it at (I assume it's a full HD set, i.e. 1080p or 1920x1080?) not the physical size. I've settled on 720p (1280x720) for my TV as it's only an HD ready set, not full HD, and although it supports 1080i (and I've tested that it does work), there's not a lot of point.

Gatster

It's currently at 1368x768 @60hz which is the max PC resolution. Have to say I'm a little concerned going down this route as occasionally the current rig has the stutters, but I've learnt a lot from the build.

Stoner

ok well zero issues on a 42" LCD last night, playing a 4GB + MKV, very happy so far. I I have 62 processes running though, will aim to reduce that but the HD audio has 3 processes, the bluetooth set up has 2, the video has 4 and USB3 is one.

It's running at 80C on the CPU with the case on and 65 with it off, so the old Tranquil PC case is pushed, going to have to add a grid to the top and cut out some of the plastic over the processor.

also I'm goging to have to re terminate the power leads on the link cable i made from the DC DC unit to the MB. to save space.

I note that the heat pipe runs very close to one of the sticks of ram, I guess it has to, but the ram is running very hot, its the RAM with heatsinks built in but over all it makes zero sound, just running a little hot, so some of the case is going to have to some off.

Zero issues running from the 60W PSU BTW. However if i was starting again, I'd get a DC DC unit from Ebay with pre wired terminals, it would save space, offer 24V for future proofing and give me a potential 120 W

Vic Vinegar

Stoner wrote: »

ok well zero issues on a 42" LCD last night, playing a 4GB + MKV, very happy so far. I I have 62 processes running though, will aim to reduce that but the HD audio has 3 processes, the bluetooth set up has 2, the video has 4 and USB3 is one.

It's running at 80C on the CPU with the case on and 65 with it off, so the old Tranquil PC case is pushed, going to have to add a grid to the top and cut out some of the plastic over the processor.

also I'm goging to have to re terminate the power leads on the link cable i made from the DC DC unit to the MB. to save space.

I note that the heat pipe runs very close to one of the sticks of ram, I guess it has to, but the ram is running very hot, its the RAM with heatsinks built in but over all it makes zero sound, just running a little hot, so some of the case is going to have to some off.

Zero issues running from the 60W PSU BTW. However if i was starting again, I'd get a DC DC unit from Ebay with pre wired terminals, it would save space, offer 24V for future proofing and give me a potential 120 W

Hi Stoner. How's the wireless connection working on the system? (if using)

Do you think the mini pc would be able to handle blu-ray discs graphics wise? i'm thinking of getting a BD drive on mine when i get the parts soon.

Cheers!

Stoner

Bombleswizzum wrote: »

Hi Stoner. How's the wireless connection working on the system? (if using)

Do you think the mini pc would be able to handle blu-ray discs graphics wise? i'm thinking of getting a BD drive on mine when i get the parts soon.

Cheers!

hi Bombleswizzum,

I had issues on 8GB MKV files, I only received 3.7 for the processor on the windows experience test. there was jitter in the playback.

Sadly I had to add a little fan on to the box. It's a very basic AMD skinny fan, it's quiet and with the lid on i cant hear it, however if i fast forward on an 4 or 8 MKV file the fan speeds up so you can hear it but not for long. the fan addressed the jitter 100%.

To be honest it made a huge difference at full load it wouldn't even add 2W, but my case is tiny and maybe i was pushing it, i screwed the fan to the heat sink, i didnt use any of the extra fan drivers (I used the cool and quiet stuff when it came out first and was not impressed, might be different now) so out of the box with no extra ASUS drivers the MB itself is controlling the fan, it runs it very slowly constantly and it makes a difference, processor experience is now 3.8 but i guess its holding steady now , when ever it gets stressed the fan speeds up , cools it and then slows down. I was so happy with the way this happened that I did not install the ASUS suite on my final install for fan or temp control as i wanted to cut processes. The ram is so much cooler too (touch test)

I installed windows on it 8 times lol. In the end I put it on to a flash drive and included the drivers i wanted. I'm not using Bluetooth at the moment so i did not install the drives i just have them there ready to go. I also went about fine tuning windows 7 as per some online guides (hence the 8 installs).

I tried the ram disk too, but don't have it now, but i may put it back and direct the page file to it.

I don't use wireless but i did test it and had no issues but that was just a little test, it was fine on the wired GB lan. I ended up using little of the added ASUS products bar the drivers and the video drivers need to updated anyway.


I'd say that if your unit is pushed that you'll need a fan for the blu-ray, I would do things slightly differently if i was doing it again, I did find a cheap case with a nice DC/Dc unit and power supply if you want me to dig out a link.

Essentially i wanted to go for as small a box as possible, the box was plastic and i pushed the passive set up, the little fan made the difference. However you'll have a bigger box with room for the blu-ray player so i guess it will have more air flow too and it will be metal, me being part butcher I added an alu vent from Woodies to mine, it was 10mm over each side so i bent them back and it grips the case perfectly so it needs no fixings.

finally on win 7 32B I got a 7.5 score on the HD, but I get a 7 on Win 7 64 win no fan and 7.1 with a fan, ran the tests 3 times.

Had great fun with it over all. I have read since about people putting them in a N64 case and they had issues too, a metal box that helped dump heat would be better. I'll get some pics if you want, the ones I have are before i dressed the power cables, but I'd like to get that out there that i did dress the cables


Added pics now, you can see that i kept the cable lengths to a minimum to reduce copper loss and not to waste air space. Also you can see just how close the heat pipes run to the RAM, this is a bit of a design issue IMHO, they could be at the side away form the RAM.

Vic Vinegar

Cheers man! lots of information there. Very helpful for me.

Stoner

no bother,

I bought some pico DC/DC units with 80Watt bricks on ebay yesterday, expecting them in soon, they would be better then the old unit i used.

I'm going to build another one of these, have yet to make my mind up on a case though, was thinking PS1, sega mega drive 1 or 2, maybe 1 for the size.

Alun

What about the case I used for mine ...

http://www2.hardwareversand.de/articledetail.jsp?aid=24396&agid=1199

... or the smaller version without the pci-e slot?

http://www2.hardwareversand.de/articledetail.jsp?aid=24392&agid=1199

There's plenty of room in there for a slimline 12cm fan like this one http://www1.hardwareversand.de/articledetail.jsp?aid=30964&agid=42 between the top of the heatsink and the case.

Stoner

Alun wrote: »

What about the case I used for mine ...

http://www2.hardwareversand.de/articledetail.jsp?aid=24396&agid=1199

... or the smaller version without the pci-e slot?

http://www2.hardwareversand.de/articledetail.jsp?aid=24392&agid=1199

There's plenty of room in there for a slimline 12cm fan like this one http://www1.hardwareversand.de/articledetail.jsp?aid=30964&agid=42 between the top of the heatsink and the case.

they are lovely cases Alun, I might go for something creative and something bought. I find buying off the site to be a bit of a pain to be honest.
That a nice slim fan, any idea of it's power consumption, remember I'm working off 60Watts!! well 80 on the next one.

Stoner

actually they are a nice price if the 60W PSU is included, and it seems to be , is it?

Alun

Stoner wrote: »

That a nice slim fan, any idea of it's power consumption, remember I'm working off 60Watts!! well 80 on the next one.

0.17A at 12V = 2W at full power. It's not a PWM fan so the MB controls it by altering the voltage. In that case I rarely see it above 50-60% full power, so probably about 1W on average, i.e. not worth worrying about!

Alun

Stoner wrote: »

actually they are a nice price if the 60W PSU is included, and it seems to be , is it?

Yes it is.

Gatster

Carter P Fly wrote: »

If you are using an SSD and watching a lot of Live TV then you shoudl look into using a RAM disk instead of the SSD for that buffer.

Which buffer? I'll be building my new rig next week and will have 8gb RAM, so want to use the RAMDISK option. I found this guide but need a pointer as to the above?

seklly

Alun wrote: »

Yes it is.

Looking to use this in conjunction with the Asus motherboard and a Black Gold BGT3600 which uses a PCI-e power connector so i'm wondering does the power supply in this case come with one of these or will i need a Molex to PCI Express Converter?

Alun

seklly wrote: »

Looking to use this in conjunction with the Asus motherboard and a Black Gold BGT3600 which uses a PCI-e power connector so i'm wondering does the power supply in this case come with one of these or will i need a Molex to PCI Express Converter?

The Blackgold card in common with a lot of PCI-e satellite tuner cards requires two sources of power. Firstly obviously from the PCI-e bus itself and secondly from an additional power connector on the board that connects to a spare floppy disk power connector on the PSU.

Don't forget to connect this or else the card will appear to work correctly in as much as it gets detected and the drivers install correctly, but fail in strange and surprising ways when you actually come to use it properly due to insufficient power being available from the bus.

There is a spare floppy connector available so that isn't a problem, but there is no PCI-e riser card supplied with the case unfortunately. Something like this would be suitable ...

http://cgi.ebay.ie/PCI-E-express-1X-Riser-Card-Adapter-extender-Flex-Cable-/330547614525?pt=UK_Computing_ComputerComponents_InterfaceCards&hash=item4cf62c533d

Note that there are solid riser cards also available, but it's often unclear as to their exact dimensions, which is critical when fitting to a case like this, but also most of them are ones that have the PCI-e connector on the wrong side, i.e. over the MB, rather than away from it which is what you need for this case.

Hope this helps.

seklly

Alun wrote: »

The Blackgold card in common with a lot of PCI-e satellite tuner cards requires two sources of power. Firstly obviously from the PCI-e bus itself and secondly from an additional power connector on the board that connects to a spare floppy disk power connector on the PSU.

Don't forget to connect this or else the card will appear to work correctly in as much as it gets detected and the drivers install correctly, but fail in strange and surprising ways when you actually come to use it properly due to insufficient power being available from the bus.

There is a spare floppy connector available so that isn't a problem, but there is no PCI-e riser card supplied with the case unfortunately. Something like this would be suitable ...

http://cgi.ebay.ie/PCI-E-express-1X-Riser-Card-Adapter-extender-Flex-Cable-/330547614525?pt=UK_Computing_ComputerComponents_InterfaceCards&hash=item4cf62c533d

Note that there are solid riser cards also available, but it's often unclear as to their exact dimensions, which is critical when fitting to a case like this, but also most of them are ones that have the PCI-e connector on the wrong side, i.e. over the MB, rather than away from it which is what you need for this case.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for that.

Yes i'll be looking to get a PCI-e riser cable like you linked to connect to the motherboard.

I see from page 3 in the Installation Guide that the BGT6300 uses a PCI-e power connector whereas the BlackGold BGT3595 and older models used a floppy drive power connector.

So would i be looking to get something like this:

http://cgi.ebay.ie/Molex-6pin-PSU-adaptor-PCI-Express-Card-/190572761398?pt=UK_Computing_DesktopComponents_RL&hash=item2c5f059136#ht_500wt_1156

Or is that connector already available on the cases PSU.

Thanks

Alun

Ah, OK, maybe it was the 3595 that had the floppy drive connector.

I'll open mine up in a minute and have a look for you to see if it has a suitable connector, although I suspect the answer will be no. There should be at least one spare Molex connector for the adapter you showed though. I'll take a photo of the insides as well while I'm at it ... might be interesting for some on here.

seklly

Good stuff, cheers, that will come in handy

Alun

OK, no PCIe power connector as I suspected.

There are the standard 24 pin EATX and 4 pin ATX 12V MB power connectors, plus one cable string with 2 Molex and 1 floppy connector and another with just the one SATA power connector. There was a Molex-> 2 SATA adapter included with the MB though if you want to add another SATA device.

While I remember, the SATA cables included with the MB are right angled at the disk end, and in the standard mounting position for the HD at the bottom of the case, you can't get this in as it fouls the bottom of the case. Luckily I have a stash of 'straight' SATA cables from other builds, but it's worth remembering.

seklly

Great, that helps, so i can just use those 2 Molex connectors.

Alun wrote: »

While I remember, the SATA cables included with the MB are right angled at the disk end, and in the standard mounting position for the HD at the bottom of the case, you can't get this in as it fouls the bottom of the case. Luckily I have a stash of 'straight' SATA cables from other builds, but it's worth remembering.

That's good to know, have a few of those lying around myself!

Thanks for your help.