Are employers exploiting employees?

RussellTuring

EarlERizer wrote: »

Jaysus OP,thats hardcore, and I thought my position was bad!

After been unemployed for little over 18months desperation got the better of me and I signed up with yet another recruitment agency to see if I could get anything by way of a steady income, I got a placement with a large multinational distributor.

It's only an 11 month contract with no possibility of a permanent job,it pays just on the edge of minimum wage,however,I've learned that the company pay the agency €14.50 per hour for each of us,so,they are making a handsome sum of €215 pw on each 'recruit' .....for what, I have no idea, they supplied nothing but a handbook,they provide nothing by way of a service to me,yet they cream €215 out of my sweat every week.

Employers/Employment Agencies are exploiting employee's the lenght and bredth of the country and getting away with it,it's disgusting whats going on but with so many out of work and desperate for a job they know they have the upper hand,employees are over a barrel.

Any idea why the managers don't just cut out the agency and either hire themselves or even just pay a once-off fee for each new employee? It sounds like it would still be somewhat exploitative if you don't have that many rights, but they could pay the staff more and still save themselves money.

Bens

RussellTuring wrote: »

Any idea why the managers don't just cut out the agency and either hire themselves or even just pay a once-off fee for each new employee? It sounds like it would still be somewhat exploitative if you don't have that many rights, but they could pay the staff more and still save themselves money.

In my business there are kickbacks from agency to the guy dealing with them. Sometimes they can be worth thousands a month depending on how many people you employ.

Helix

i work from 5am to 6pm every day, 7 days a week. sometimes i work through to 10pm

however ive got no problem doing it and the end result is a six figure salary

Mike 1972

RussellTuring wrote: »

Any idea why the managers don't just cut out the agency and either hire themselves or even just pay a once-off fee for each new employee?

Never understood myself what the point of agencies (from a managment standpoint) was unless it was for a very small company (without its own HR department) or the work was short term.

res3

Helix wrote: »

i work from 5am to 6pm every day, 7 days a week. sometimes i work through to 10pm

however ive got no problem doing it and the end result is a six figure salary

And on the other end of the scale i also work from 5am until 4pm five/six days a week but unlike you I am on salary and it works out to be less than minimum wage. Desperate times and so on. I had a great job the company went bust I have a mortgage to pay and this was the only job available.. But it doesn't matter what our wages are the 4am wake up calls are a killer:)

stevejr

When talking about Employment Agencies, this thread is an eyeopener;

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055011993

As one of the posters says, some of them are as dodgy as used car salesmen.

Bens

Helix wrote: »

i work from 5am to 6pm every day, 7 days a week. sometimes i work through to 10pm

however ive got no problem doing it and the end result is a six figure salary

I worked 8 hours a day , 5 days a week for a six figure salary, but doubled it for a 7 hour day by moving job to London. And I never would have even thought of moving had it not been for the pension grab. Thankyou Mr Noonan.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

The Left Hand Of God

Veles wrote: »

Some are and will continue to do so unless workers actually stick up for themselves

Well said.

The other side of the coin is some young workers were used to living in their own heads when jobs were plenty and don't actually still understand that in some places the hours of work that they signed up to are actually the hours of work. Not 15 minutes late and leaving 10 minutes earlier "'cos that's the way the buses run"

namurt

It's all well and good telling people they should stand up for their employment rights but when you feel you have to "put up and shut up" or risk losing your job it can be very difficult. Unfortunately employers know that people can't risk losing their jobs so they'll get them to put up with as much crap as possible.

Love the idea of a Primetime show, would definitely have somewhere for them to check out.

Noreen1

Bens wrote: »

Its not my company, but from experience anywhere ive ever worked, talk about unions gets beaten down very quickley. So obviously its not as easy as you think.
If it was every company would have a union. Starting with Ryanair.

I'm not under any illusions about it being easy.
Having said that - employers who refuse to accept union membership are actually denying their employees their constitutional rights, as per Article 40.6.1.iii of the Irish Constitution.

The key thing is whether all the employees are willing to stand together, since employers can refuse to negotiate with unions (and invariably do refuse, initially).

If every employee refers them to a union rep., eventually they tend to negotiate.
Having said that - it's not unheard of for employers to dismiss employees in a fit of pique - which of course, leaves them wide open for a case of unfair dismissal.
Where only one or two employees join a union, obviously employers feel they can harass those employees, since they have less support, and the employer may feel that it is worth the cost of the unfair dismissal case.

EarlERizer

Veles wrote: »

Some are and will continue to do so unless workers actually stick up for themselves

That was all well and good when it happened en masse via unions,however unions aren't as strong as before (nor above question).

The Irish worker of today is practically 'fending for themselves' and are disposable if deemed 'troublesome' 'ackward' 'stubborn' 'uncooperative' etc etc

Can anyone remember the days when we'd poke fun at the guys working in the fast food joints, the local garage/service station, the local newsagents or supermarkets - oh we wouldnt be seen dead offering "fries with that" ..... one place even ran an ad campaign with it as its theme ..... bet there's a fair few unemployed today who'd walk to work to be doing those jobs now.......but can't remember the last time I heard an Irish accent in any of them,nor the local supermarket,garage,shop for that matter ...... where are they all gone?

It would seem to me that until Irish workers learn to fall in line,put up and shut up,not question, work ridiculous hours for low wage and chop and change shift at the drop of a hat,jump through hoops and do whatever else is asked of them to suit the demands made by employers,they will remain at the bottom of the "suitable candidate" list ........... I was actually told more or less the same thing (in more PC terms) by an aquaintence of mine who works in a senior role for a recruitment agency.

EarlERizer

RussellTuring wrote: »

Any idea why the managers don't just cut out the agency and either hire themselves or even just pay a once-off fee for each new employee? It sounds like it would still be somewhat exploitative if you don't have that many rights, but they could pay the staff more and still save themselves money.

I'm baffled by it to tell the truth, I can only guess at it having to do with insurance,workers entitlements (force majeure,holiday pay,overtime rates, etc) either that or figures in the background high up the food chain have conspired between themselves & concluded that it's the best option i.e. benefical to those involved.

I've found out through a little research that the top dog of where I am 'placed' earns on average €8000 more per week than an agency placement makes in a year!! or to put it another way, his annual earning could keep an agency recruit in work for atleast 52 years (based on the weekly earning of a recruit)

On a side note, It's unbelievable how prominent recruitment agencies have become in recent years,there was a time when they were only used to fill short term, absences, quick fix,stop gap roles.

mikedone

As a returned emigrant I've read through this thread in fascination at the fact that nothing seems to have changed in Ireland since I started working a summer job as a fifteen year old over thirty years ago as a glass gatherer in a bar. We were only paid overtime if we worked more than 160 hours in a month.

ArtSmart

ilovesleep wrote: »

I feel I am being exoloited and taken advantage of at work. I used to have a 10 hour working day, which is long enough but that has increased without warning to 11/12 hours a day and sometimes longer 13/14/15 hours a day sometimes.

www.citizenadvice.ie have good info on employment law.

ArtSmart

Sweatynutsack wrote: »

I started a 4 week trial period for a new position after being unemployed for nearly two years. I took the position knowing i would not get any form of wage for the first month. Yesterday the boss calls me in and tells me he is delighted with my performance and that he would like to extend my position for another 3 months (without pay lol) I told him where to stick it in a polite way . I am hard pushed to find suitable employment to be honest but i ain't working for free. I have held the same position in my previous job for 10 solid years and had been paid well yet this guy wants to rate my performance for a further 12 weeks and wants me to do it for nothing......i dont think so

sigh. report him. he's breaking the law. check out above site for details.

EarlERizer

mikedone wrote: »

As a returned emigrant I've read through this thread in fascination at the fact that nothing seems to have changed in Ireland since I started working a summer job as a fifteen year old over thirty years ago as a glass gatherer in a bar. We were only paid overtime if we worked more than 160 hours in a month.

There seems to be a few that are hitting the 160 hour mark coming into week 3, I thought the laws on employment (in regard to basic hrs v ot hrs) stipulated that a working week should consist of no more than 48 hrs? although the norm would be more like 40hrs , anything after is considered overtime, atleast thats the way it's worked in the jobs I've worked over the past 21 years.

Myself I've 'worked' from the tender age of 10 , paper rounds at weekends and through summer holidays, then worked as a 'helper' with a friend of the family who had a bread round (up at 4am Thurs-Sat all through summer),then as a cleaner/binman in the old town centre (pre-square days) and then as a forecourt attendant/car washer in the local shell garage before my first 'real' job as an apprentice baker when i left school .

... remember that exploitation? apprenticeships and the payscale ....my first year I was earning £58.75 pw for 6am-2pm Mon-Sat ,less than £1.50 per hour , I had 'friends' getting £68 pw on the dole!!

back on thread .... the place i'm in now pays agency recruits (or the agency pays us) overtime (if ever your lucky to be forced to do it during peak times) at flat rate, my first experience been the last couple of bh weekends and been told it wasn't a day off as the company work that day (with only recruitment staff that is).

They don't even have the decency to use a lubricant!!! :eek:

Bens

A little trick if you are placed on a contract via an agency.
If you are working overtime and not getting paid, make sure you put it on your timesheets anyway.
When you ring up the agent and tell them the company isnt giving you overtime the agent will just say "tough".
The secret here is that the agency is actually invoicing the company and collecting your overtime, without giving you a cut.
So just say to the agent "well if im not getting paid for it im not bothering putting it on my timesheet". Watch the agent back peddle and pay you for overtime worked.

fat__tony

Helix wrote: »

i work from 5am to 6pm every day, 7 days a week. sometimes i work through to 10pm

however ive got no problem doing it and the end result is a six figure salary

Whats the point in working all these hours and you don't have time to enjoy yourself?

Congratulations.

You officially have no life.

Locker10a

Yes some* employers are really exploiting workers! Its terrible! They use "the economic climate " and " you are lucky to have a job" cards all the time. Ive heard horrible stories of conditions and threats to staff in some companies! Hotels seem to be the worst offenders!

IzzyWizzy

Definitely and can you blame them, with all the idiots around who tell employees they're lucky to have a job? I get one 15 minute lunch break in my whole teaching day (which is really 5 minutes by the time I get to the staff room and heat up my lunch) and am not even supposed to go to the toilet outside that lunch break and people still like to tell me how lucky I am. I do enjoy my job, but conditions like that are not acceptable, IMO.

I do blame those people who jump through hoops to please the boss, no matter how unfair or demanding the request. My current job is becoming intolerable, with all the little 'extra' things we're supposed to do. It started with some admin work that wasn't part of the job description and now it's turned into reams of paperwork to be filled in every day, completely unpaid. All stuff that should be done by the receptionist or data entry people. If you leave when your working hours ends (which is what I do), the other employees decide you're 'not a team player', so some people finish teaching at 6 and are in the staff room until half 7, before going home and doing their (unpaid) preparation for the next day. So basically they're working for 11-12 hours a day and have no life at all outside work. The boss also e-mails at insane times of the day and night and expects immediate replies. Those kind of hours and conditions are fine for high flying, well paid executives, but for a badly paid (and hourly paid) teaching job? Feck that.

Bens

Similar to IzzyWizzys story.
Ive worked in a place where I worked 9 or 10 hours out of the goodness of my heart.
Then a few nights I had to finish at 6 (5 was my official finish time, but I used to stay til at least 8 every night).

When I finished at 6 I was approached by the boss and asked why I was leaving early the last few days. I said its not early, its actually an hour overtime. He didnt see it at all, as he had got used to me working til 8pm every night for him.
I left a few weeks after.

Or the people who see you going home at 5 and say "half day today". Even though you were in hours before they were.

In another company I worked through lunch a lot. One day I came in 10 mins late, didnt have a lunch break and went home at the normal time. The boss told me the next day that when I come in late I had to stay and make up the time. I explained about all the working lunch times he got from me and that he wouldnt be getting anymore, after that little ungrateful episode.

Never give more time than your contract says.
You will only look like you are taking the p if you leave at your normal time after that.
If the boss wants to give out to you for working less time for him or if he makes you clock in and out, then dont work more time for him.

Helix

fat__tony wrote: »

Whats the point in working all these hours and you don't have time to enjoy yourself?

Congratulations.

You officially have no life.

how do you make that out? i finish at 6pm most days, and since i dont need to commute im finished and at home at 6 on the dot, unlike plenty of people i know

sure i get up a bit earlier, but all im missing out on there is sleep

bnt

mikedone wrote: »

As a returned emigrant I've read through this thread in fascination at the fact that nothing seems to have changed in Ireland since I started working a summer job as a fifteen year old over thirty years ago as a glass gatherer in a bar. We were only paid overtime if we worked more than 160 hours in a month.

That doesn't sound too bad. 160 hours a month = less than 40 hours a week = less than 8 hours a day in a 5-day week. That's pretty standard for office work.

Amhran Nua

What a mess.

First of all, unions. Unless you're in the public sector, the big boys don't want to know. I've heard of unions turning down applications because the contributions for the numbers of staff working in the place weren't profitable enough. If you're in the public sector however you can threaten to close the country down in exchange for a year's extension plus interest on your salary.

Second of all, Irish middle management. This shower of yahoos are for the most part labouring under the impression that they will somehow better themselves by explicitly riding roughshod over the workforce, having watched Wall Street and thinking they are aspiring Gordon Geckos. The reality is that they are just as disposable as normal workers, maybe more so, and all the abuse ladled out only serves to make them less employable. Still, at least you know how their minds work now.

Third, if you are being abused in your workplace, consult the many resources linked in this thread, then consult a solicitor. There are plenty of them who will take cases on a no win no fee basis, but they aren't allowed to advertise as such so ask. Nobody likes to be the odd man out, and be ready for hassle from people who should know better, but you've only got one life. One, so just damn well do it.

And last, if you think that the unpaid internship schemes are fun now, wait till IBEC convinces the blueshirts, never far divorced from their corporatist roots, that welfare allowances should be dependent on taking internships if offered. At that point you have a state sanctioned slave caste of the extremely poor who will never make it out from under poverty.

Think it couldn't happen? We're already 90% of the way there, and you can bet that such a move will be cheered on by the self congratulatory crowd of wasters who live off the rent from the house they inherited from their mammies.

This is a shambles, and the opposition government turned ministerial pensioners hasn't the ability or skillset to improve the situation.

Noreen1

Amhran Nua wrote: »

What a mess.

First of all, unions. Unless you're in the public sector, the big boys don't want to know. I've heard of unions turning down applications because the contributions for the numbers of staff working in the place weren't profitable enough. If you're in the public sector however you can threaten to close the country down in exchange for a year's extension plus interest on your salary.

Seriously?

wrote:

Second of all, Irish middle management. This shower of yahoos are for the most part labouring under the impression that they will somehow better themselves by explicitly riding roughshod over the workforce, having watched Wall Street and thinking they are aspiring Gordon Geckos. The reality is that they are just as disposable as normal workers, maybe more so, and all the abuse ladled out only serves to make them less employable. Still, at least you know how their minds work now.

I hate to say it, but I've come across too much of this type of "management" in my time.
However, I think it's important to note that not all Irish middle management (mis)manage in this way, and that serious questions need to be asked of the senior management/HR personnel who hired/promoted them in the first place.

wrote:

Third, if you are being abused in your workplace, consult the many resources linked in this thread, then consult a solicitor. There are plenty of them who will take cases on a no win no fee basis, but they aren't allowed to advertise as such so ask. Nobody likes to be the odd man out, and be ready for hassle from people who should know better, but you've only got one life. One, so just damn well do it.

Good advice.

wrote:

And last, if you think that the unpaid internship schemes are fun now, wait till IBEC convinces the blueshirts, never far divorced from their corporatist roots, that welfare allowances should be dependent on taking internships if offered. At that point you have a state sanctioned slave caste of the extremely poor who will never make it out from under poverty.

Think it couldn't happen? We're already 90% of the way there, and you can bet that such a move will be cheered on by the self congratulatory crowd of wasters who live off the rent from the house they inherited from their mammies.

This is a shambles, and the opposition government turned ministerial pensioners hasn't the ability or skillset to improve the situation.

+1

Amhran Nua

Noreen1 wrote: »

Seriously?

Yes, seriously.

Noreen1 wrote: »

However, I think it's important to note that not all Irish middle management (mis)manage in this way, and that serious questions need to be asked of the senior management/HR personnel who hired/promoted them in the first place.

There's plenty of blame to go round. A country doesn't get this messed up without lots of diligent hard work.

ArtSmart

Amhran Nua wrote: »

What a mess.

First of all, unions. Unless you're in the public sector, the big boys don't want to know. I've heard of unions turning down applications because the contributions for the numbers of staff working in the place weren't profitable enough. If you're in the public sector however you can threaten to close the country down in exchange for a year's extension plus interest on your salary.

now now A N. You're posts are usually pretty good, but that's just bogus.



Second of all, Irish middle management. This shower of yahoos are for the most part labouring under the impression that they will somehow better themselves by explicitly riding roughshod over the workforce, having watched Wall Street and thinking they are aspiring Gordon Geckos. The reality is that they are just as disposable as normal workers, maybe more so, and all the abuse ladled out only serves to make them less employable. Still, at least you know how their minds work now.

yup. especially in sales n marketing work place.

Third, if you are being abused in your workplace, consult the many resources linked in this thread, then consult a solicitor. There are plenty of them who will take cases on a no win no fee basis, but they aren't allowed to advertise as such so ask. Nobody likes to be the odd man out, and be ready for hassle from people who should know better, but you've only got one life. One, so just damn well do it.

There are mechanisms which dont require a solicitor or any expense - Rights Commissioners and others, info is out there. esp citizen adv.




And last, if you think that the unpaid internship schemes are fun now, wait till IBEC convinces the blueshirts, never far divorced from their corporatist roots, that welfare allowances should be dependent on taking internships if offered. At that point you have a state sanctioned slave caste of the extremely poor who will never make it out from under poverty.

Think it couldn't happen? We're already 90% of the way there, and you can bet that such a move will be cheered on by the self congratulatory crowd of wasters who live off the rent from the house they inherited from their mammies.

This is a shambles, and the opposition government turned ministerial pensioners hasn't the ability or skillset to improve the situation.

as for the rest, maybe, but Labour would have to dissolve as a party if that happened.

Noreen1

Amhran Nua wrote: »

There's plenty of blame to go round. A country doesn't get this messed up without lots of diligent hard work.

Yes and no.:D Any manager who mistreats his/her staff in this manner hasn't done enough hard work in the area of employment legislation, researching training costs, lost production etc.

I think it's also fair to state that certain Business owners have also failed - utterly - to consider the overall effect of the so-called "employment
initiative" on the economy, and, therefore, on their customers.

It's hardly rocket science to work out that more people, with reduced income, equals less disposable "earnings" to spend on their product.
Yet they're merrily grabbing the free labour, and failing to understand that the business next door using free labour is why people cannot afford their services.

Management? Stupid, incompetent, mismanagement is a better description.... or maybe we should just rename management. "Lemmings" springs to mind, strangely enough.

The debacle that is "Education", and the damage to the economy in the future that will be caused by current policy might be better left for another thread.

Amhran Nua

ArtSmart wrote: »

now now A N. You're posts are usually pretty good, but that's just bogus.

I genuinely wish it was. I think a lot of people are going to have their rose coloured glasses dislodged over the coming years with regard to the unions.

The equation is simple - if the risk of industrial action is higher than the probable income from that shop, the unions don't get involved. From the point of view of a union accountant it makes perfect sense - why would you want to support some people who are only calling on the unions in their hour of need, costing lots of money without having done the "time" first? I know that gives the lie to the posturing about worker solidarity, but this is how it works.

Noreen1 wrote: »

Management? Stupid, incompetent, mismanagement is a better description.... or maybe we should just rename management. "Lemmings" springs to mind, strangely enough.

The sad part is, it's not the business managers' job to think about the wider economy, that's a bit above their pay grade, although that doesn't excuse much. It's the job of the politicians to show a tiny bit of cop on and deal with the bigger picture. Either they are getting bad advice from the people in the civil service or they are disregarding said advice in favour of IBEC's kool aid, I'm guessing a healthy mix.

I mean think about it, we have a selection of teachers, solicitors and publicans whose leader never received a paycheque that wasn't signed by the Irish taxpayer, trying to come up with ways to create jobs. The first people they blindly grope towards for guidance are those who employ low skilled workers. The idea that the success of minor businesses and the success of the wider economy might just be different things never occurs to them.

This will not end well.