Sociopathy

metrovelvet

Velvety wrote: »

Perhaps it does. I'm not commenting on it's worth. I'm providing evidence that people diagnosed as psychopaths are different in some way to people not diagnosed as psychopaths.

You cant really talk about pure objectivity though. Plus you havent supplied any info about the study.

If you take 20 kids and make them play video games for 10 hours and them compare them with 20 kids who didnt play video games for 10 hours, they are going to respond differently to different stimuli, one being more sensitive than the other.

If you take 30 people who just got out of prison they will respond differently to those who who just came back from the bahamas.

If you are a calm person to begin with or a Native New Yorker used to a lot of noise it would take alot to startle you, like 911 for example.

So the whole diagnosis would depend on the sample and how the experiments are run.

The more I read about the DSM the more skeptical I am of diagnosis.

Plus there is a spectrum for sociopathy, from mild to worse, and intelligence, as well as biological factors have to be taken into account too. The smart ones know how to stay out of jail, the stupid ones dont.

People like to think of the violent serial killers. But then think of the Enron guy who was not himself violent, but did cause a number of people to kill themselves.

Velvety

You cant really talk about pure objectivity though. Plus you havent supplied any info about the study.

I've provided a link to the study and described it.

If you take 20 kids and make them play video games for 10 hours and them compare them with 20 kids who didnt play video games for 10 hours, they are going to respond differently to different stimuli, one being more sensitive than the other. If you take 30 people who just got out of prison they will respond differently to those who who just came back from the bahamas. If you are a calm person to begin with or a Native New Yorker used to a lot of noise it would take alot to startle you, like 911 for example.

I doubt the paper would have been accepted for publication if the authors didn't have a basic understanding of statistical significance.

Plus there is a spectrum for sociopathy, from mild to worse, and intelligence, as well as biological factors have to be taken into account too. The smart ones know how to stay out of jail, the stupid ones dont.

People like to think of the violent serial killers. But then think of the Enron guy who was not himself violent, but did cause a number of people to kill themselves.

I don't know who you're arguing with here. Naikon said there was no evidence that psycopaths exist. He compared calling someone a psychopath to calling someone a witch in the 16th century. All I'm doing here is providing some evidence that people diagnosed as psychopaths are in some way different to those who aren't.

Odysseus

Well for those saying there is no such thing, they certainly exist, spend any time in a clinical situation and you will see people who fit the critiera. My concern is the popual view that being a psychopath= someone out of criminal minds.

Does anyone who works in a forensic or even semi-forensic position have an opinion on the condition we call psychopathy.

metrovelvet

Odysseus wrote: »

Well for those saying there is no such thing, they certainly exist, spend any time in a clinical situation and you will see people who fit the critiera. My concern is the popual view that being a psychopath= someone out of criminal minds.

Does anyone who works in a forensic or even semi-forensic position have an opinion on the condition we call psychopathy.

Odessues-

Question for you? Do you eventually get bored of dealing with these ciphers?

Also, do you find it hard to have empathy for them?

From what I have read is they are impossible to take through therapy for a number of reasons.

What are your feelings about that?

hotspur

This Jon Ronson book which came out last month might interest some of you, there are some extremely interesting interactions with psychopaths:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Psychopath-Test-Jon-Ronson/dp/0330492268

Odysseus

metrovelvet wrote: »

Odessues-

Question for you? Do you eventually get bored of dealing with these ciphers?

Also, do you find it hard to have empathy for them?

From what I have read is they are impossible to take through therapy for a number of reasons.

What are your feelings about that?

I'm just on a qiuck break so I'll anwer your stuff later. Can I ask what you mean by ciphers and could you expand abit more on your last question so I can give you a better answer.

metrovelvet

Well doesnt it get boring working with people who have a shallow emotional aspect and is it hard to be empathetic to those who have no empathy themselves and no conscience?

Odysseus

metrovelvet wrote: »

Well doesnt it get boring working with people who have a shallow emotional aspect and is it hard to be empathetic to those who have no empathy themselves and no conscience?

Cheers, could you tell me what you mean by ciper though. I have clients now so I'll get back to you later.

metrovelvet

Odysseus wrote: »

Cheers, could you tell me what you mean by ciper though. I have clients now so I'll get back to you later.

Empty vessel.

Odysseus

metrovelvet wrote: »

Empty vessel.

One of the things I like about my service is the vast array of presentations I get to work with; it's not just addiction I work with. A lot of services use us as a dumping ground once the client states they use drugs. I don't know why if you are psychologically trained to a good standard you should be able to treat it from a psychological aspect. I always hated the term addiction counsellor as it implies we only deal with addiction, we get the whole range of co-morbid disorders, the usual histories of abuse etc, and so I was delighted that we drop the term addiction from our title.

Anyway that's just my way of saying I'm lucky to work with a wide range of clients and conditions. Sorry for the waffle.

As you know I'm a psychoanalyst we don't really have a lot of time for the concept of empathy. The transference would be the most important thing for us with therapy. I think that the term psychopath is often misused or just mixed up with ASPD or dissocial personality disorder. A lot of my guys and girls engage in some very violent acts, and I think this coupled with a perceived lack of remorse is seen a being a psychopath. I think denial is a stronger factor than a lack of remorse in some cases, the implications of those acts are blocked out at an unconscious level, as it would the be too painful to take on board the impact of the act. Often this only comes to light when the person is clean and looking hard at their lives. This is why the traditional approach to treating addiction focuses so much on denial; because if a person took on board the full implications of all the acts the did to themselves and others it mean they would stop using. This of course only relates to a small number of clients who are just written off as being psychopathic.

I find doctors referring "psychopaths" to me who once you engage them and they trust you they clearly show remorse. I'm surprised the since there is a difference between it and dissocial personality disorder that's it not in the ICD-10 or DSM.

There is no incentive for those who do attend me their is little incentive like court reports etc as I am very minimal in what I write in reports. From a psychoanalytic viewpoint the true psychopath would be seen as having a psychotic structure and psychoanalytic treatment for psychotics is very different to treating neurotics or perverts. So I would not see them as an empty vessel, just a story that is difficult to articulate.

For those who have no conscience or empathy, I don’t find it particularly difficult, I also have no problem listening to the disturbing acts of violence of fantasies of it that they speak off, I can understand the violence as part of the human condition, not the lack or remorse now; however, I just see that as part of their condition and work with it. It is unusual to get these guys into therapy, and the view was expressed at a clinical meeting today by another therapist that you can’t work psychotherapeutically with these guys and it’s a very popular opinion.

I hope I didn’t waffle too much, but does that answer your question?

metrovelvet

I'm not sure if you answered it or not.

As far as I am aware, sociopathy and psychopathy are both dsm iv categories axis II. [in the dsm V narcisism will be absorbed into aspd also].

Secondly, from what you describe, it sounds like they may not be truly psychopathic, that the drugs could be masking the remorse, and I do think you have a point too about both remorse and empathy in that to be in touch with someone can put you straight back in touch with your own, and that is the last thind addicts want to do, which is why they use drugs in the first place, that and maybe boredom.

You have doctors sending you 'psychopaths'. Who are these doctors? GPs? This is why I am skeptical of diagnosis.

Ive read up on therapists who deal with sociopaths, non violent, non addicts, but cold liquid nitrogen, highly devious, manipulative people, and these people might show remorse, but its only to gain pity, and hook you into a game.

sambuka41

Odysseus wrote: »

For those who have no conscience or empathy, I don’t find it particularly difficult, I also have no problem listening to the disturbing acts of violence of fantasies of it that they speak off, I can understand the violence as part of the human condition

I would imagine that when dealing with people with ASPD, or psychopathy and discussing violence psychoanalysis is well suited!! Just an observation. I done a short thesis recently on aggressivity and the mirror stage, and I see better now how 'built in' aggression is.

I've worked young people who can't be diagnosed with any personality disorder (as they were under 18) but some of their reports have all but diagnosed them as ASPD,BPD ect. Some very,very cold people, but I have to say empty vessel wouldn't be how I would describe them, or anyone, theres a lot going on with them.
It always amazes me just how different their logic is, they describe committing violent acts without a flicker of emotion, it just appears completely rational to them. I think it's important to be aware of our own perceptions, everyone's moral compass is different (not that you would condone behaviour)

Odysseus

metrovelvet wrote: »

I'm not sure if you answered it or not.

As far as I am aware, sociopathy and psychopathy are both dsm iv categories axis II. [in the dsm V narcisism will be absorbed into aspd also].

Secondly, from what you describe, it sounds like they may not be truly psychopathic, that the drugs could be masking the remorse, and I do think you have a point too about both remorse and empathy in that to be in touch with someone can put you straight back in touch with your own, and that is the last thind addicts want to do, which is why they use drugs in the first place, that and maybe boredom.

You have doctors sending you 'psychopaths'. Who are these doctors? GPs? This is why I am skeptical of diagnosis.

Ive read up on therapists who deal with sociopaths, non violent, non addicts, but cold liquid nitrogen, highly devious, manipulative people, and these people might show remorse, but its only to gain pity, and hook you into a game.

Yeah mostly Gp's within my own clinic, most of the medical stuff is done by GP's in the Addiction Services, we get a visiting psych once a week for our dual diagnosis clinic.

You seem to be referring to the "smiling" psychopath, they can mimic it, but it's false of course. I would need to check the DSM again, it's not in the ICD-10, it's mentioned as an old name for disocial PD, but that is a different comdition.

Odysseus

sambuka41 wrote: »

I would imagine that when dealing with people with ASPD, or psychopathy and discussing violence psychoanalysis is well suited!! Just an observation. I done a short thesis recently on aggressivity and the mirror stage, and I see better now how 'built in' aggression is.

I've worked young people who can't be diagnosed with any personality disorder (as they were under 18) but some of their reports have all but diagnosed them as ASPD,BPD ect. Some very,very cold people, but I have to say empty vessel wouldn't be how I would describe them, or anyone, theres a lot going on with them.
It always amazes me just how different their logic is, they describe committing violent acts without a flicker of emotion, it just appears completely rational to them. I think it's important to be aware of our own perceptions, everyone's moral compass is different (not that you would condone behaviour)

Can I ask where you where studying and what course. Also would it be possible to have a read of it. Feel free to say no if you not happy about it, but I would be interested in having a look at it if you didn't mind.

sambuka41

Odysseus wrote: »

Can I ask where you where studying and what course. Also would it be possible to have a read of it. Feel free to say no if you not happy about it, but I would be interested in having a look at it if you didn't mind.

Studied it in UCD,H Dip psychotherapy studies, I'll send on a pm

elfan

Hi everyone I am a trainee forensic psychologist in a forensic mental health hospital in the UK. I work in the adolescent service (13-18 year olds) and we do not attach diagnoses such as psychopathy onto individuals below the age of 18 due to the stigmatising effects. Psychologists in the service do use the PCL-R but I have not used it myself. In the service we talk about “emerging personality disorder”. Now while many studies particularly around brain imaging have shown a genetic link to psychopathy what I would say is that I believe it to be a biological and environmental condition. For example I could be born with a propensity to a certain genetic condition but my life choices determine whether or not I develop it. In the adolescent service the main risk assessment utilised is the SAVRY (structured assessment of violence risk in youth) and lack of empathy/remorse is one of the criteria used for assessing risk. I will say from doing a number of these though it is amazing how people who score low in this criterion almost always seem to have a history of attachment difficulties. As to whether empathy as a skill can be learned, exercises around perspective taking are always very interesting and the research on therapeutic communities in HMP Grendon suggest that people can improve in this regard. Many of these people have empathy they just choose not to use it as they have found that they have been let down when they have trusted people in the past. I think something like empathy is on a continuum and not simply something you have or do not have but certainly some people have higher levels of emotional intelligence than others. I think people need to steer away from a reductionist approach and recognise that something like psychopathy is multi-faceted and indeed most of the people I work with usually have comorbidity of diagnoses too.

metrovelvet

^ The whole empathy faction of this is fascinating and confusing.

For one thing, dont people with aspergers also lack empathy? Yet they are not sociopathic.

And the other thing about empathy is that it ebbs and flows, if you are angry or tired they drop to minimals right. So how do you know they are sociopathic or just very very angry?

Baron-Cohen ties in the lack of empathy with his new books on the science of evil. Havent read them yet, just read a few articles.

hotspur

metrovelvet wrote: »

As far as I am aware, sociopathy and psychopathy are both dsm iv categories axis II. [in the dsm V narcisism will be absorbed into aspd also].

Neither sociopathy nor psychopathy are in the DSM, it is APD there. The reason it is not psychopathy anymore is partly political because there are those unhappy with Robert Hare's demonising of psychopaths. But I think the term is going to come back with DSM5.

metrovelvet

hotspur wrote: »

Neither sociopathy nor psychopathy are in the DSM, it is APD there. The reason it is not psychopathy anymore is partly political because there are those unhappy with Robert Hare's demonising of psychopaths. But I think the term is going to come back with DSM5.

Really. I thought in dsm v they were all getting lumped into APD, narcisism too. All the same spectrum anyhow.

Naikon

elfan wrote: »

Hi everyone I am a trainee forensic psychologist in a forensic mental health hospital in the UK. I work in the adolescent service (13-18 year olds) and we do not attach diagnoses such as psychopathy onto individuals below the age of 18 due to the stigmatising effects. Psychologists in the service do use the PCL-R but I have not used it myself. In the service we talk about “emerging personality disorder”. Now while many studies particularly around brain imaging have shown a genetic link to psychopathy what I would say is that I believe it to be a biological and environmental condition. For example I could be born with a propensity to a certain genetic condition but my life choices determine whether or not I develop it. In the adolescent service the main risk assessment utilised is the SAVRY (structured assessment of violence risk in youth) and lack of empathy/remorse is one of the criteria used for assessing risk. I will say from doing a number of these though it is amazing how people who score low in this criterion almost always seem to have a history of attachment difficulties. As to whether empathy as a skill can be learned, exercises around perspective taking are always very interesting and the research on therapeutic communities in HMP Grendon suggest that people can improve in this regard. Many of these people have empathy they just choose not to use it as they have found that they have been let down when they have trusted people in the past. I think something like empathy is on a continuum and not simply something you have or do not have but certainly some people have higher levels of emotional intelligence than others. I think people need to steer away from a reductionist approach and recognise that something like psychopathy is multi-faceted and indeed most of the people I work with usually have comorbidity of diagnoses too.

The biological processes that lead to these symptoms are not clearly defined. If you can't reduce these disorders to non composite parts, who is to say these "disorders" are nothing but a figmant of our emotionally driven minds?

JuliusCaesar

Naikon wrote: »

If they can't find a biological basis for these "disorders", who has the authority to say that they actually exist?

The biological processes that lead to these symptoms are not clearly defined. If you can't reduce these disorders to non composite parts, who is to say these "disorders" are nothing but a figmant of our emotionally driven minds?

i'm not sure what you are trying to get at - maybe you are trying to say that the "disorder" of "sociopathy/psychopathy" doesn't exist?

Don't forget that the DSMs are not about providing diagnoses which are exactly similar to medical diagnoses of physical disorders. The function of the DSM is to provide groupings or categories for the purposes of research.

symptoms were clustered and labelled through the power of persuasion and vote, in frank contradiction with scientific evidence indicating that neither a categorical system nor the particular symptom clusters identified, represented the nature of human problems

Beutler et al 1996, talking about the DSM IV, in the supplement to the Journal of Consulting & Clinical Psychology which is the 'gold standard' journal. The supplement contained

a series of articles in the Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology that represent a theoretically organized challenge to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM; e.g., 4th ed.; American Psychiatric Association, 1994). A criticism of the DSM is offered on the basis that a taxonomy based on inadequately explicated theory has not been and cannot be a successful basis for a scientific research program.

Naikon

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

The function of the DSM is to provide groupings or categories for the purposes of research.

Or more realistically, shady justifications for prescribing labels to differences in human beings for the purpose of generating revenue. The DSM reads more like a religious text, than an actual scientifically valid body of research.

The majority of the "disorders" presented in the DSM have little grounding in reality as actual medical problems, as opposed to mere differences in functioning. Where are the biomarkers to differentiate normal individuals from say, the "sick" ones? They aren't any. I am very skeptical when it comes to the DSM-IV.

What next? WIll the DSM label people who like indie rock as sick in a potential future revision? I would not rule out that possibility if their current standards are anything to go by.

CiaranMT

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

i'm not sure what you are trying to get at - maybe you are trying to say that the "disorder" of "sociopathy/psychopathy" doesn't exist?

Naikon has had his soapbox in CT closed. Throughout the previous debate in which I was involved, he repeatedly conflated disorder with disease, which I pointed out numerous times. He seems to have forgotten about that distinction again.

Naikon wrote: »

Or more realistically, shady justifications for prescribing labels to differences in human beings for the purpose of generating revenue. The DSM reads more like a religious text, than an actual scientifically valid body of research.


The majority of the "disorders" presented in the DSM have little grounding in reality as actual medical problems, as opposed to mere differences in functioning. Where are the biomarkers to differentiate normal individuals from say, the "sick" ones? They aren't any. I am very skeptical when it comes to the DSM-IV.

If that really is your opinion, then there is no point in you continuing to debate these type of topics. To flatly rebuke a journal which is the collation of decades of work, carried out by thousands upon thousands of psychologists, psychiatrists etc, automatically undermines your own position.

And, as if you couldn't undermine yourself any more, you come up with this beauty...

What next? WIll the DSM label people who like indie rock as sick in a potential future revision? I would not rule out that possibility if their current standards are anything to go by.

hotspur

Why are people feeding the troll?

War Machine 539

Mods as the OP of this thread, I request it be locked.

Thank you so much to all posters concerning this.

Phil


Done! JC