Sociopathy

War Machine 539

I have a question and I cant find an answer anywhere. Is there a correlation with sociopathy and child parental bereavement? To be more specific, subject is an orphan with a history of mental and and physical abuse. I'm not looking for any sort of diagnosis, just knowledge of possible links.

Odysseus

No as far as I understand the concept, it is much more complex than that. I will post a more detailed response later when I have a few minutes. We can discuss the concept in general, we cannot discuss it in relation to labeling another person.

War Machine 539

Thank you. Of course.

Odysseus

Didn't get time tonight sorry, but I'll get back to you tomorrow.

War Machine 539

No problem, I'm not an acedemic, or even involved in psychology, it is an interest of mine however, and I would like a deeper understanding of this particular condition! Thank you!

War Machine 539

Still awaiting a response . . . . . .

WesternNight

Have you had a look at some other online resources at all in the meantime? Even Wikipedia would have some reasonable information as regards theories of causality for psychopathy (or sociopathy). If you want to have a look at some academic journal articles you can browse through PubMed http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/

I'm not very well-up on this area, but research seems to point towards a fairly strong genetic component, so it seems to be something that a person is born with rather than something that's acquired later on.

Also, correlation does not necessarily imply causation

Naikon

WesternNight wrote: »

but research seems to point towards a fairly strong genetic component

Bulls4it

War Machine 539

Naikon wrote: »

Bulls4it

Thanks for the input . . . . . . . . would you like to give us your theory?

Naikon

War Machine 539 wrote: »

Thanks for the input . . . . . . . . would you like to give us your theory?

There are no proven biological markers that distinguish a normal individual from "the sociopath". It's such a broad wishy washy classification, anybody could potentially be labelled a sociopath given the right context. If I called you a sociopath. Would you accept my proposition without proof?

metrovelvet

There have been suppositions that there is a genetic component. Robert Hare writes about it in his book "Without Conscience" and it's also talked about in a book called "Just Like His Father." There have also been criticisms of this theory though, as it smacks of late 19th century phrenology.

I am positive that empathy can be beaten out of someone, so it would be no surprise to me that someone treated with cruelty would become sociopathic.

It also is suspiciously gendered much the same way women get smacked with a borderline diagnosis the anti social disorders get smacked on the men. Saying that an intersting writer on the topic, Baron Cohen, has written about testosterone inhibiting empathy levels. How scientific is this? I dont know. But then I dont think psychology is scientific in the first place, as much as it likes to aspire to that authority.

With that if you look at the title of that very well known book "Just Like His Father" it is very male focused, attributing a genetic destiny throught he patrilinear line.

I am not a psychiatrist btw or a psychologist either, have just read a lot about it.

Odysseus

War Machine 539 wrote: »

Still awaiting a response . . . . . .

Sorry for the delay mate, my mother bike was stolen, so I' away form my text books which are at home. I wanted to re-check them before I answered your question. I should have something for you tonight. Though I would trust Metro/V's responses, she may not be a psych be she has done a fair bit of academic study in the area.

Odysseus

OP I was just looking through some texts now; can I ask do you mean sociopath specifically or psychpath? Though they are different terms some people use them to designate the same condition; and I don't want to be giving youthe incorrect info. Could you clarify that for me please? Some people even use it the same as ASPD or disocial personal personality disorder.

Velvety

There are no proven biological markers that distinguish a normal individual from "the sociopath".

If we're using sociopath and psychopath interchangeably, yes there are:

http://www.usc.edu/uscnews/stories/9861.html

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/164/9/1418

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=inside-the-mind-of-a-psychopath

It's such a broad wishy washy classification, anybody could potentially be labelled a sociopath given the right context.

No it isn't:

http://www.minddisorders.com/Flu-Inv/Hare-Psychopathy-Checklist.html

If I called you a sociopath. Would you accept my proposition without proof?

What does that have to do with anything?

Naikon

Velvety wrote: »

If we're using sociopath and psychopath interchangeably, yes there are:

http://www.usc.edu/uscnews/stories/9861.html

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/164/9/1418

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=inside-the-mind-of-a-psychopath




No it isn't:

http://www.minddisorders.com/Flu-Inv/Hare-Psychopathy-Checklist.html



What does that have to do with anything?

These articles don't prove anything of the sort. The APA published "research" is basically untrustworthy, whereas the other links are non conclusive. Any better research? I believe you suffer from Velvetypathy. I say this despite hard diagnostic evidence to back up my claim.

Naikon

From the Regional Cortical Thinning article: The neural substrates that underlie violent behavior specifically and their structural analogs, however, remain poorly understood. Nor is it known whether a common biological basis exists for aggressive, impulsive, and violent behavior across these clinical populations.

If they can't find a biological basis for these "disorders", who has the authority to say that they actually exist?

metrovelvet

You have to be really careful when you talk about biology and destiny, and this is one of the flaws with American psychiatry imo.

Experience can change your biology. In other words, they have found that abuse victims have had their neuro pathes and chemicals and even brain structures changed by their experiences. This has been long well known.

So, I am very skeptical of these so called genetic carries of things like ASPD, because how to they know that the brains they have been scanning or the neuro diverse subjects haven't had their biology altered by their experiences rahter than carrying a sociopathic gene.

On the other hand, knowing that experience and environment can change and alter biology is a positive sign, because it means you can turn it the other way too.

War Machine 539

I think that the topic is deviating slightly . . . . . . Can anyone answer my original query as to whether known links between sociopathy/psychopathy and external trauma in the forms of bereavement and abuse exist? Naikon with all respect this thread wasn't set up to debate the existence of sociopathy and as grateful as I am for your input, I still believe it exists.

So may I take this juncture to steer the thread back on course?

Odysseus

I just wanted to clarify if you where asking about sociopath’s of one of the other disorders that are often lumped in with it. I will stick with the term psychopath if that is alright. R Hare is often considered to the top man in the area if you want to read more. There are different type of psychopaths, the criminal one, not all psychopaths are the type you seen on criminal minds. Then there is the secondary psychopath and them dyssocial, not to confused with ASPB or dissocial personal personality disorder.

I'm not a forensic psych I'm a psychoanalyst but my work brings me into contact with a lot of severe criminals just to clear that up. In my diagnostic framework the true or criminal psychopath would b the considered a psychotic. From that view point the father would be very important but not from an abusive perspective, and from any other viewpoint I have studied bereavement would not be a factor.

There are studies suggesting a low genetic influence, some studies rate it higher. If you are interested I found Bartol & Bartol's criminal behaviour A Psychological Approach a good introductory core text. Like all core texts it just gives you a good over-view of the various conditions; but it's the best I have found so far.

Can I ask you to expand on your ideas on why abuse and bereavement would be factors in the development of this condition?

Anyway does that answer your question to some degree? It's not really my area but due to working with guys like that I tried to study up on it over the years, as they can be very interesting people to work with. There are a few forensic psychs that pop in and out of here that maybe able to answer your questions better that I can. Also sorry for the delay in getting back to you but my motor bike being stolen messed things up a bit.

Odysseus

Naikon wrote: »

These articles don't prove anything of the sort. The APA published "research" is basically untrustworthy, whereas the other links are non conclusive. Any better research? I believe you suffer from Velvetypathy. I say this despite hard diagnostic evidence to back up my claim.

Mod Warning. This is not the place for name calling, please keep your responses respectful. This is not AH

metrovelvet

Yes, empathy can be destroyed out of a person and high levels of dissociation can be destroyed into a person.

http://sociopathic.net/?p=92

Social Causes and Sociopathy

A person’s environment can contribute to sociopathic behavior as easily as brain damage or a mental problem. Infants and children who experience rejection or neglect by their parents, physical or sexual abuse, harsh discipline such as frequent or extreme beatings and punishments, poor supervision, institutionalized living in an orphanage or hospital ward, frequent changes of caregivers, association with delinquents or psychotic family members may perceive others to be more hostile or threatening than they actually are and, in turn, become more aggressive themselves or develop conduct disorder. Nonaggressive conduct–such as destroying property, disobedience, theft, deceit, skipping school or running away–is another form of conduct disorder. A repetitive, persistent pattern of this kind in adulthood generally becomes antisocial behavior or a sociopath who will break any law, disregard any person and his rights, lie, manipulate, deceive and even commit violence to satisfy his wants and needs, with no remorse or sympathy.

War Machine 539

Thank you! That has answered my question!

Naikon

What about the biological markers for Sociopathy? The pathophysiology isn't there from what I can see. Most diseases can be verified through hard diagnostic procedures. Sociopathy cannot.

Velvety

Criminals convicted of sexual offences, diagnosed as psychopaths, are significantly less likely to have a startle reaction when presented with unpleasant images (such as pictures of mutilations) than criminals convicted of sexual offences, diagnosed as non-psychopaths.

http://dionysus.psych.wisc.edu/CourseWebsites/Psy804/Readings%5Cpatrick93.pdf

Does that satisfy you that there is a difference between people termed psychopaths and those who aren't?

- I'm not saying the lack of startle reaction is the cause of them being psychopaths
- I'm not saying that every part of the diagnostic criteria for terming someone a psychopath has strong evidence to support it.

But surely there is something going on beyond blind luck that this particular group of criminals who have been diagnosed as psychopaths have a unique physical reaction to shocking unpleasant images, compared to other criminals convicted of the same type of crimes but diagnosed as non-psychopaths.

Naikon

Velvety wrote: »

Criminals convicted of sexual offences, diagnosed as psychopaths, are significantly less likely to have a startle reaction when presented with unpleasant images (such as pictures of mutilations) than criminals convicted of sexual offences, diagnosed as non-psychopaths.

http://dionysus.psych.wisc.edu/CourseWebsites/Psy804/Readings%5Cpatrick93.pdf

Does that satisfy you that there is a difference between people termed psychopaths and those who aren't?

- I'm not saying the lack of startle reaction is the cause of them being psychopaths
- I'm not saying that every part of the diagnostic criteria for terming someone a psychopath has strong evidence to support it.

But surely there is something going on beyond blind luck that this particular group of criminals who have been diagnosed as psychopaths have a unique physical reaction to shocking unpleasant images, compared to other criminals convicted of the same type of crimes but diagnosed as non-psychopaths.

Sorry but that link does nothing to verify sociopathy as a disease of the mind. Emotional response is mostly subjective. Are there any neurobiological markers for the identification of sociopathy? If not, aren't these labels simply the modern day equivalent of Witch Hunters labelling the non followers as Heretics?

Velvety

It shows there's an objective difference between people classed as psychopaths and the general population.

Naikon

Velvety wrote: »

It shows there's an objective difference between people classed as psychopaths and the general population.

I am convinced.

Odysseus

Naikon wrote: »

Sorry but that link does nothing to verify sociopathy as a disease of the mind. Emotional response is mostly subjective. Are there any neurobiological markers for the identification of sociopathy? If not, aren't these labels simply the modern day equivalent of Witch Hunters labelling the non followers as Heretics?

I don't think it equals witch hunting. I don't know if this is what you want but try reading Morgan& Lilienfeod 2000, Vien & Beech 2006 they have research these marker in psychopathy. But it's not something that would interest me so I can't comment on the quality.

Velvety

I am convinced.

That study showed that people termed psychopaths are far less likely to be startled or have an aversive physical reaction to seeing deeply unpleasant, violent imagery.

That is an objective difference. If you can't concede that much, I don't know what else to say.

metrovelvet

Velvety wrote: »

That study showed that people termed psychopaths are far less likely to be startled or have an aversive physical reaction to seeing deeply unpleasant, violent imagery.

That is an objective difference. If you can't concede that much, I don't know what else to say.

Perhaps this makes them good surgeons or ER room doctors, soldiers, coroners.

Velvety

Perhaps this makes them good surgeons or ER room doctors, soldiers, coroners.

Perhaps it does. I'm not commenting on it's worth. I'm providing evidence that people diagnosed as psychopaths are different in some way to people not diagnosed as psychopaths.

metrovelvet

Velvety wrote: »

Perhaps it does. I'm not commenting on it's worth. I'm providing evidence that people diagnosed as psychopaths are different in some way to people not diagnosed as psychopaths.

You cant really talk about pure objectivity though. Plus you havent supplied any info about the study.

If you take 20 kids and make them play video games for 10 hours and them compare them with 20 kids who didnt play video games for 10 hours, they are going to respond differently to different stimuli, one being more sensitive than the other.

If you take 30 people who just got out of prison they will respond differently to those who who just came back from the bahamas.

If you are a calm person to begin with or a Native New Yorker used to a lot of noise it would take alot to startle you, like 911 for example.

So the whole diagnosis would depend on the sample and how the experiments are run.

The more I read about the DSM the more skeptical I am of diagnosis.

Plus there is a spectrum for sociopathy, from mild to worse, and intelligence, as well as biological factors have to be taken into account too. The smart ones know how to stay out of jail, the stupid ones dont.

People like to think of the violent serial killers. But then think of the Enron guy who was not himself violent, but did cause a number of people to kill themselves.

Velvety

You cant really talk about pure objectivity though. Plus you havent supplied any info about the study.

I've provided a link to the study and described it.

If you take 20 kids and make them play video games for 10 hours and them compare them with 20 kids who didnt play video games for 10 hours, they are going to respond differently to different stimuli, one being more sensitive than the other. If you take 30 people who just got out of prison they will respond differently to those who who just came back from the bahamas. If you are a calm person to begin with or a Native New Yorker used to a lot of noise it would take alot to startle you, like 911 for example.

I doubt the paper would have been accepted for publication if the authors didn't have a basic understanding of statistical significance.

Plus there is a spectrum for sociopathy, from mild to worse, and intelligence, as well as biological factors have to be taken into account too. The smart ones know how to stay out of jail, the stupid ones dont.

People like to think of the violent serial killers. But then think of the Enron guy who was not himself violent, but did cause a number of people to kill themselves.

I don't know who you're arguing with here. Naikon said there was no evidence that psycopaths exist. He compared calling someone a psychopath to calling someone a witch in the 16th century. All I'm doing here is providing some evidence that people diagnosed as psychopaths are in some way different to those who aren't.

Odysseus

Well for those saying there is no such thing, they certainly exist, spend any time in a clinical situation and you will see people who fit the critiera. My concern is the popual view that being a psychopath= someone out of criminal minds.

Does anyone who works in a forensic or even semi-forensic position have an opinion on the condition we call psychopathy.

metrovelvet

Odysseus wrote: »

Well for those saying there is no such thing, they certainly exist, spend any time in a clinical situation and you will see people who fit the critiera. My concern is the popual view that being a psychopath= someone out of criminal minds.

Does anyone who works in a forensic or even semi-forensic position have an opinion on the condition we call psychopathy.

Odessues-

Question for you? Do you eventually get bored of dealing with these ciphers?

Also, do you find it hard to have empathy for them?

From what I have read is they are impossible to take through therapy for a number of reasons.

What are your feelings about that?

hotspur

This Jon Ronson book which came out last month might interest some of you, there are some extremely interesting interactions with psychopaths:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Psychopath-Test-Jon-Ronson/dp/0330492268

Odysseus

metrovelvet wrote: »

Odessues-

Question for you? Do you eventually get bored of dealing with these ciphers?

Also, do you find it hard to have empathy for them?

From what I have read is they are impossible to take through therapy for a number of reasons.

What are your feelings about that?

I'm just on a qiuck break so I'll anwer your stuff later. Can I ask what you mean by ciphers and could you expand abit more on your last question so I can give you a better answer.

metrovelvet

Well doesnt it get boring working with people who have a shallow emotional aspect and is it hard to be empathetic to those who have no empathy themselves and no conscience?

Odysseus

metrovelvet wrote: »

Well doesnt it get boring working with people who have a shallow emotional aspect and is it hard to be empathetic to those who have no empathy themselves and no conscience?

Cheers, could you tell me what you mean by ciper though. I have clients now so I'll get back to you later.

metrovelvet

Odysseus wrote: »

Cheers, could you tell me what you mean by ciper though. I have clients now so I'll get back to you later.

Empty vessel.

Odysseus

metrovelvet wrote: »

Empty vessel.

One of the things I like about my service is the vast array of presentations I get to work with; it's not just addiction I work with. A lot of services use us as a dumping ground once the client states they use drugs. I don't know why if you are psychologically trained to a good standard you should be able to treat it from a psychological aspect. I always hated the term addiction counsellor as it implies we only deal with addiction, we get the whole range of co-morbid disorders, the usual histories of abuse etc, and so I was delighted that we drop the term addiction from our title.

Anyway that's just my way of saying I'm lucky to work with a wide range of clients and conditions. Sorry for the waffle.

As you know I'm a psychoanalyst we don't really have a lot of time for the concept of empathy. The transference would be the most important thing for us with therapy. I think that the term psychopath is often misused or just mixed up with ASPD or dissocial personality disorder. A lot of my guys and girls engage in some very violent acts, and I think this coupled with a perceived lack of remorse is seen a being a psychopath. I think denial is a stronger factor than a lack of remorse in some cases, the implications of those acts are blocked out at an unconscious level, as it would the be too painful to take on board the impact of the act. Often this only comes to light when the person is clean and looking hard at their lives. This is why the traditional approach to treating addiction focuses so much on denial; because if a person took on board the full implications of all the acts the did to themselves and others it mean they would stop using. This of course only relates to a small number of clients who are just written off as being psychopathic.

I find doctors referring "psychopaths" to me who once you engage them and they trust you they clearly show remorse. I'm surprised the since there is a difference between it and dissocial personality disorder that's it not in the ICD-10 or DSM.

There is no incentive for those who do attend me their is little incentive like court reports etc as I am very minimal in what I write in reports. From a psychoanalytic viewpoint the true psychopath would be seen as having a psychotic structure and psychoanalytic treatment for psychotics is very different to treating neurotics or perverts. So I would not see them as an empty vessel, just a story that is difficult to articulate.

For those who have no conscience or empathy, I don’t find it particularly difficult, I also have no problem listening to the disturbing acts of violence of fantasies of it that they speak off, I can understand the violence as part of the human condition, not the lack or remorse now; however, I just see that as part of their condition and work with it. It is unusual to get these guys into therapy, and the view was expressed at a clinical meeting today by another therapist that you can’t work psychotherapeutically with these guys and it’s a very popular opinion.

I hope I didn’t waffle too much, but does that answer your question?

metrovelvet

I'm not sure if you answered it or not.

As far as I am aware, sociopathy and psychopathy are both dsm iv categories axis II. [in the dsm V narcisism will be absorbed into aspd also].

Secondly, from what you describe, it sounds like they may not be truly psychopathic, that the drugs could be masking the remorse, and I do think you have a point too about both remorse and empathy in that to be in touch with someone can put you straight back in touch with your own, and that is the last thind addicts want to do, which is why they use drugs in the first place, that and maybe boredom.

You have doctors sending you 'psychopaths'. Who are these doctors? GPs? This is why I am skeptical of diagnosis.

Ive read up on therapists who deal with sociopaths, non violent, non addicts, but cold liquid nitrogen, highly devious, manipulative people, and these people might show remorse, but its only to gain pity, and hook you into a game.

sambuka41

Odysseus wrote: »

For those who have no conscience or empathy, I don’t find it particularly difficult, I also have no problem listening to the disturbing acts of violence of fantasies of it that they speak off, I can understand the violence as part of the human condition

I would imagine that when dealing with people with ASPD, or psychopathy and discussing violence psychoanalysis is well suited!! Just an observation. I done a short thesis recently on aggressivity and the mirror stage, and I see better now how 'built in' aggression is.

I've worked young people who can't be diagnosed with any personality disorder (as they were under 18) but some of their reports have all but diagnosed them as ASPD,BPD ect. Some very,very cold people, but I have to say empty vessel wouldn't be how I would describe them, or anyone, theres a lot going on with them.
It always amazes me just how different their logic is, they describe committing violent acts without a flicker of emotion, it just appears completely rational to them. I think it's important to be aware of our own perceptions, everyone's moral compass is different (not that you would condone behaviour)

Odysseus

metrovelvet wrote: »

I'm not sure if you answered it or not.

As far as I am aware, sociopathy and psychopathy are both dsm iv categories axis II. [in the dsm V narcisism will be absorbed into aspd also].

Secondly, from what you describe, it sounds like they may not be truly psychopathic, that the drugs could be masking the remorse, and I do think you have a point too about both remorse and empathy in that to be in touch with someone can put you straight back in touch with your own, and that is the last thind addicts want to do, which is why they use drugs in the first place, that and maybe boredom.

You have doctors sending you 'psychopaths'. Who are these doctors? GPs? This is why I am skeptical of diagnosis.

Ive read up on therapists who deal with sociopaths, non violent, non addicts, but cold liquid nitrogen, highly devious, manipulative people, and these people might show remorse, but its only to gain pity, and hook you into a game.

Yeah mostly Gp's within my own clinic, most of the medical stuff is done by GP's in the Addiction Services, we get a visiting psych once a week for our dual diagnosis clinic.

You seem to be referring to the "smiling" psychopath, they can mimic it, but it's false of course. I would need to check the DSM again, it's not in the ICD-10, it's mentioned as an old name for disocial PD, but that is a different comdition.

Odysseus

sambuka41 wrote: »

I would imagine that when dealing with people with ASPD, or psychopathy and discussing violence psychoanalysis is well suited!! Just an observation. I done a short thesis recently on aggressivity and the mirror stage, and I see better now how 'built in' aggression is.

I've worked young people who can't be diagnosed with any personality disorder (as they were under 18) but some of their reports have all but diagnosed them as ASPD,BPD ect. Some very,very cold people, but I have to say empty vessel wouldn't be how I would describe them, or anyone, theres a lot going on with them.
It always amazes me just how different their logic is, they describe committing violent acts without a flicker of emotion, it just appears completely rational to them. I think it's important to be aware of our own perceptions, everyone's moral compass is different (not that you would condone behaviour)

Can I ask where you where studying and what course. Also would it be possible to have a read of it. Feel free to say no if you not happy about it, but I would be interested in having a look at it if you didn't mind.

sambuka41

Odysseus wrote: »

Can I ask where you where studying and what course. Also would it be possible to have a read of it. Feel free to say no if you not happy about it, but I would be interested in having a look at it if you didn't mind.

Studied it in UCD,H Dip psychotherapy studies, I'll send on a pm

elfan

Hi everyone I am a trainee forensic psychologist in a forensic mental health hospital in the UK. I work in the adolescent service (13-18 year olds) and we do not attach diagnoses such as psychopathy onto individuals below the age of 18 due to the stigmatising effects. Psychologists in the service do use the PCL-R but I have not used it myself. In the service we talk about “emerging personality disorder”. Now while many studies particularly around brain imaging have shown a genetic link to psychopathy what I would say is that I believe it to be a biological and environmental condition. For example I could be born with a propensity to a certain genetic condition but my life choices determine whether or not I develop it. In the adolescent service the main risk assessment utilised is the SAVRY (structured assessment of violence risk in youth) and lack of empathy/remorse is one of the criteria used for assessing risk. I will say from doing a number of these though it is amazing how people who score low in this criterion almost always seem to have a history of attachment difficulties. As to whether empathy as a skill can be learned, exercises around perspective taking are always very interesting and the research on therapeutic communities in HMP Grendon suggest that people can improve in this regard. Many of these people have empathy they just choose not to use it as they have found that they have been let down when they have trusted people in the past. I think something like empathy is on a continuum and not simply something you have or do not have but certainly some people have higher levels of emotional intelligence than others. I think people need to steer away from a reductionist approach and recognise that something like psychopathy is multi-faceted and indeed most of the people I work with usually have comorbidity of diagnoses too.

metrovelvet

^ The whole empathy faction of this is fascinating and confusing.

For one thing, dont people with aspergers also lack empathy? Yet they are not sociopathic.

And the other thing about empathy is that it ebbs and flows, if you are angry or tired they drop to minimals right. So how do you know they are sociopathic or just very very angry?

Baron-Cohen ties in the lack of empathy with his new books on the science of evil. Havent read them yet, just read a few articles.

hotspur

metrovelvet wrote: »

As far as I am aware, sociopathy and psychopathy are both dsm iv categories axis II. [in the dsm V narcisism will be absorbed into aspd also].

Neither sociopathy nor psychopathy are in the DSM, it is APD there. The reason it is not psychopathy anymore is partly political because there are those unhappy with Robert Hare's demonising of psychopaths. But I think the term is going to come back with DSM5.

metrovelvet

hotspur wrote: »

Neither sociopathy nor psychopathy are in the DSM, it is APD there. The reason it is not psychopathy anymore is partly political because there are those unhappy with Robert Hare's demonising of psychopaths. But I think the term is going to come back with DSM5.

Really. I thought in dsm v they were all getting lumped into APD, narcisism too. All the same spectrum anyhow.

Naikon

elfan wrote: »

Hi everyone I am a trainee forensic psychologist in a forensic mental health hospital in the UK. I work in the adolescent service (13-18 year olds) and we do not attach diagnoses such as psychopathy onto individuals below the age of 18 due to the stigmatising effects. Psychologists in the service do use the PCL-R but I have not used it myself. In the service we talk about “emerging personality disorder”. Now while many studies particularly around brain imaging have shown a genetic link to psychopathy what I would say is that I believe it to be a biological and environmental condition. For example I could be born with a propensity to a certain genetic condition but my life choices determine whether or not I develop it. In the adolescent service the main risk assessment utilised is the SAVRY (structured assessment of violence risk in youth) and lack of empathy/remorse is one of the criteria used for assessing risk. I will say from doing a number of these though it is amazing how people who score low in this criterion almost always seem to have a history of attachment difficulties. As to whether empathy as a skill can be learned, exercises around perspective taking are always very interesting and the research on therapeutic communities in HMP Grendon suggest that people can improve in this regard. Many of these people have empathy they just choose not to use it as they have found that they have been let down when they have trusted people in the past. I think something like empathy is on a continuum and not simply something you have or do not have but certainly some people have higher levels of emotional intelligence than others. I think people need to steer away from a reductionist approach and recognise that something like psychopathy is multi-faceted and indeed most of the people I work with usually have comorbidity of diagnoses too.

The biological processes that lead to these symptoms are not clearly defined. If you can't reduce these disorders to non composite parts, who is to say these "disorders" are nothing but a figmant of our emotionally driven minds?