Sociopathy

War Machine 539

I have a question and I cant find an answer anywhere. Is there a correlation with sociopathy and child parental bereavement? To be more specific, subject is an orphan with a history of mental and and physical abuse. I'm not looking for any sort of diagnosis, just knowledge of possible links.

Odysseus

No as far as I understand the concept, it is much more complex than that. I will post a more detailed response later when I have a few minutes. We can discuss the concept in general, we cannot discuss it in relation to labeling another person.

War Machine 539

Thank you. Of course.

Odysseus

Didn't get time tonight sorry, but I'll get back to you tomorrow.

War Machine 539

No problem, I'm not an acedemic, or even involved in psychology, it is an interest of mine however, and I would like a deeper understanding of this particular condition! Thank you!

War Machine 539

Still awaiting a response . . . . . .

WesternNight

Have you had a look at some other online resources at all in the meantime? Even Wikipedia would have some reasonable information as regards theories of causality for psychopathy (or sociopathy). If you want to have a look at some academic journal articles you can browse through PubMed http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/

I'm not very well-up on this area, but research seems to point towards a fairly strong genetic component, so it seems to be something that a person is born with rather than something that's acquired later on.

Also, correlation does not necessarily imply causation

Naikon

WesternNight wrote: »

but research seems to point towards a fairly strong genetic component

Bulls4it

War Machine 539

Naikon wrote: »

Bulls4it

Thanks for the input . . . . . . . . would you like to give us your theory?

Naikon

War Machine 539 wrote: »

Thanks for the input . . . . . . . . would you like to give us your theory?

There are no proven biological markers that distinguish a normal individual from "the sociopath". It's such a broad wishy washy classification, anybody could potentially be labelled a sociopath given the right context. If I called you a sociopath. Would you accept my proposition without proof?

metrovelvet

There have been suppositions that there is a genetic component. Robert Hare writes about it in his book "Without Conscience" and it's also talked about in a book called "Just Like His Father." There have also been criticisms of this theory though, as it smacks of late 19th century phrenology.

I am positive that empathy can be beaten out of someone, so it would be no surprise to me that someone treated with cruelty would become sociopathic.

It also is suspiciously gendered much the same way women get smacked with a borderline diagnosis the anti social disorders get smacked on the men. Saying that an intersting writer on the topic, Baron Cohen, has written about testosterone inhibiting empathy levels. How scientific is this? I dont know. But then I dont think psychology is scientific in the first place, as much as it likes to aspire to that authority.

With that if you look at the title of that very well known book "Just Like His Father" it is very male focused, attributing a genetic destiny throught he patrilinear line.

I am not a psychiatrist btw or a psychologist either, have just read a lot about it.

Odysseus

War Machine 539 wrote: »

Still awaiting a response . . . . . .

Sorry for the delay mate, my mother bike was stolen, so I' away form my text books which are at home. I wanted to re-check them before I answered your question. I should have something for you tonight. Though I would trust Metro/V's responses, she may not be a psych be she has done a fair bit of academic study in the area.

Odysseus

OP I was just looking through some texts now; can I ask do you mean sociopath specifically or psychpath? Though they are different terms some people use them to designate the same condition; and I don't want to be giving youthe incorrect info. Could you clarify that for me please? Some people even use it the same as ASPD or disocial personal personality disorder.

Velvety

There are no proven biological markers that distinguish a normal individual from "the sociopath".

If we're using sociopath and psychopath interchangeably, yes there are:

http://www.usc.edu/uscnews/stories/9861.html

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/164/9/1418

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=inside-the-mind-of-a-psychopath

It's such a broad wishy washy classification, anybody could potentially be labelled a sociopath given the right context.

No it isn't:

http://www.minddisorders.com/Flu-Inv/Hare-Psychopathy-Checklist.html

If I called you a sociopath. Would you accept my proposition without proof?

What does that have to do with anything?

Naikon

Velvety wrote: »

If we're using sociopath and psychopath interchangeably, yes there are:

http://www.usc.edu/uscnews/stories/9861.html

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/164/9/1418

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=inside-the-mind-of-a-psychopath




No it isn't:

http://www.minddisorders.com/Flu-Inv/Hare-Psychopathy-Checklist.html



What does that have to do with anything?

These articles don't prove anything of the sort. The APA published "research" is basically untrustworthy, whereas the other links are non conclusive. Any better research? I believe you suffer from Velvetypathy. I say this despite hard diagnostic evidence to back up my claim.

Naikon

From the Regional Cortical Thinning article: The neural substrates that underlie violent behavior specifically and their structural analogs, however, remain poorly understood. Nor is it known whether a common biological basis exists for aggressive, impulsive, and violent behavior across these clinical populations.

If they can't find a biological basis for these "disorders", who has the authority to say that they actually exist?

metrovelvet

You have to be really careful when you talk about biology and destiny, and this is one of the flaws with American psychiatry imo.

Experience can change your biology. In other words, they have found that abuse victims have had their neuro pathes and chemicals and even brain structures changed by their experiences. This has been long well known.

So, I am very skeptical of these so called genetic carries of things like ASPD, because how to they know that the brains they have been scanning or the neuro diverse subjects haven't had their biology altered by their experiences rahter than carrying a sociopathic gene.

On the other hand, knowing that experience and environment can change and alter biology is a positive sign, because it means you can turn it the other way too.

War Machine 539

I think that the topic is deviating slightly . . . . . . Can anyone answer my original query as to whether known links between sociopathy/psychopathy and external trauma in the forms of bereavement and abuse exist? Naikon with all respect this thread wasn't set up to debate the existence of sociopathy and as grateful as I am for your input, I still believe it exists.

So may I take this juncture to steer the thread back on course?

Odysseus

I just wanted to clarify if you where asking about sociopath’s of one of the other disorders that are often lumped in with it. I will stick with the term psychopath if that is alright. R Hare is often considered to the top man in the area if you want to read more. There are different type of psychopaths, the criminal one, not all psychopaths are the type you seen on criminal minds. Then there is the secondary psychopath and them dyssocial, not to confused with ASPB or dissocial personal personality disorder.

I'm not a forensic psych I'm a psychoanalyst but my work brings me into contact with a lot of severe criminals just to clear that up. In my diagnostic framework the true or criminal psychopath would b the considered a psychotic. From that view point the father would be very important but not from an abusive perspective, and from any other viewpoint I have studied bereavement would not be a factor.

There are studies suggesting a low genetic influence, some studies rate it higher. If you are interested I found Bartol & Bartol's criminal behaviour A Psychological Approach a good introductory core text. Like all core texts it just gives you a good over-view of the various conditions; but it's the best I have found so far.

Can I ask you to expand on your ideas on why abuse and bereavement would be factors in the development of this condition?

Anyway does that answer your question to some degree? It's not really my area but due to working with guys like that I tried to study up on it over the years, as they can be very interesting people to work with. There are a few forensic psychs that pop in and out of here that maybe able to answer your questions better that I can. Also sorry for the delay in getting back to you but my motor bike being stolen messed things up a bit.

Odysseus

Naikon wrote: »

These articles don't prove anything of the sort. The APA published "research" is basically untrustworthy, whereas the other links are non conclusive. Any better research? I believe you suffer from Velvetypathy. I say this despite hard diagnostic evidence to back up my claim.

Mod Warning. This is not the place for name calling, please keep your responses respectful. This is not AH

metrovelvet

Yes, empathy can be destroyed out of a person and high levels of dissociation can be destroyed into a person.

http://sociopathic.net/?p=92

Social Causes and Sociopathy

A person’s environment can contribute to sociopathic behavior as easily as brain damage or a mental problem. Infants and children who experience rejection or neglect by their parents, physical or sexual abuse, harsh discipline such as frequent or extreme beatings and punishments, poor supervision, institutionalized living in an orphanage or hospital ward, frequent changes of caregivers, association with delinquents or psychotic family members may perceive others to be more hostile or threatening than they actually are and, in turn, become more aggressive themselves or develop conduct disorder. Nonaggressive conduct–such as destroying property, disobedience, theft, deceit, skipping school or running away–is another form of conduct disorder. A repetitive, persistent pattern of this kind in adulthood generally becomes antisocial behavior or a sociopath who will break any law, disregard any person and his rights, lie, manipulate, deceive and even commit violence to satisfy his wants and needs, with no remorse or sympathy.

War Machine 539

Thank you! That has answered my question!

Naikon

What about the biological markers for Sociopathy? The pathophysiology isn't there from what I can see. Most diseases can be verified through hard diagnostic procedures. Sociopathy cannot.

Velvety

Criminals convicted of sexual offences, diagnosed as psychopaths, are significantly less likely to have a startle reaction when presented with unpleasant images (such as pictures of mutilations) than criminals convicted of sexual offences, diagnosed as non-psychopaths.

http://dionysus.psych.wisc.edu/CourseWebsites/Psy804/Readings%5Cpatrick93.pdf

Does that satisfy you that there is a difference between people termed psychopaths and those who aren't?

- I'm not saying the lack of startle reaction is the cause of them being psychopaths
- I'm not saying that every part of the diagnostic criteria for terming someone a psychopath has strong evidence to support it.

But surely there is something going on beyond blind luck that this particular group of criminals who have been diagnosed as psychopaths have a unique physical reaction to shocking unpleasant images, compared to other criminals convicted of the same type of crimes but diagnosed as non-psychopaths.

Naikon

Velvety wrote: »

Criminals convicted of sexual offences, diagnosed as psychopaths, are significantly less likely to have a startle reaction when presented with unpleasant images (such as pictures of mutilations) than criminals convicted of sexual offences, diagnosed as non-psychopaths.

http://dionysus.psych.wisc.edu/CourseWebsites/Psy804/Readings%5Cpatrick93.pdf

Does that satisfy you that there is a difference between people termed psychopaths and those who aren't?

- I'm not saying the lack of startle reaction is the cause of them being psychopaths
- I'm not saying that every part of the diagnostic criteria for terming someone a psychopath has strong evidence to support it.

But surely there is something going on beyond blind luck that this particular group of criminals who have been diagnosed as psychopaths have a unique physical reaction to shocking unpleasant images, compared to other criminals convicted of the same type of crimes but diagnosed as non-psychopaths.

Sorry but that link does nothing to verify sociopathy as a disease of the mind. Emotional response is mostly subjective. Are there any neurobiological markers for the identification of sociopathy? If not, aren't these labels simply the modern day equivalent of Witch Hunters labelling the non followers as Heretics?

Velvety

It shows there's an objective difference between people classed as psychopaths and the general population.

Naikon

Velvety wrote: »

It shows there's an objective difference between people classed as psychopaths and the general population.

I am convinced.

Odysseus

Naikon wrote: »

Sorry but that link does nothing to verify sociopathy as a disease of the mind. Emotional response is mostly subjective. Are there any neurobiological markers for the identification of sociopathy? If not, aren't these labels simply the modern day equivalent of Witch Hunters labelling the non followers as Heretics?

I don't think it equals witch hunting. I don't know if this is what you want but try reading Morgan& Lilienfeod 2000, Vien & Beech 2006 they have research these marker in psychopathy. But it's not something that would interest me so I can't comment on the quality.

Velvety

I am convinced.

That study showed that people termed psychopaths are far less likely to be startled or have an aversive physical reaction to seeing deeply unpleasant, violent imagery.

That is an objective difference. If you can't concede that much, I don't know what else to say.

metrovelvet

Velvety wrote: »

That study showed that people termed psychopaths are far less likely to be startled or have an aversive physical reaction to seeing deeply unpleasant, violent imagery.

That is an objective difference. If you can't concede that much, I don't know what else to say.

Perhaps this makes them good surgeons or ER room doctors, soldiers, coroners.

Velvety

Perhaps this makes them good surgeons or ER room doctors, soldiers, coroners.

Perhaps it does. I'm not commenting on it's worth. I'm providing evidence that people diagnosed as psychopaths are different in some way to people not diagnosed as psychopaths.