This AH poster deserves a bollicking- any takers?

EuropeanSon

Edit: I was tempted to edit all of this out, but I'm leaving it here as a reminder of the difference between a person's attitude after just hearing of a percieved wrongdoing and the person calming down later. Suffice to say, this first post was put up soon after I first read EuropeanSon's story.


Just read this on this thread in After Hours. While I understand his motives, I have to say that as a fellow Civil Defence member, I am *Livid*.

If you were in my unit EuropeanSon, I'd kick you out! The *very* *first* principle, the *first* thing you learn coming in the door, the thing that *completely invalidates ---everything--- you do if you forget it at an exercise or competition, and you *deliberately* disobey it. That was a *GROSS* abuse of your uniform, a *DANGEROUS* situation to get into, and a *TERRIBLE* reflection on your unit, and the wider Civil Defence organisation, for a member to go looking for fights *IN UNIFORM!!!!!!!*

You deserve at the very least a bollicking from your leaders, if not your uniform stripped and you kicked out!!!!


ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS

ALWAYS!!!

YOUR PRIORITIES ARE-
ONE: YOU

TWO: YOUR TEAM MEMBERS

THREE: THE CASUALTY UNDER YOUR CARE

I'm sorry for making a big deal out of this, but what you did was a *major* breach of discipline.

EuropeanSon wrote: »

I did, kind of, though I didn't injure any of them.
I was working as a volunteer with the Civil Defence at a local summer fair, when I got a call from a friend of mine who was at the event. My friend is an Irish citizen of Turkish descent, and he was being threatened and racially abused (I think, I wasn't there when this part was happening so I don't really know, but definitely he was being threatened) by a bunch of drunk "scumbags", to use the OP's term. I went over, in uniform, and tried to calm the situation down.

That didn't work. After failing to calm them down, I threatened to call the police (who were at the event). Big mistake. The de facto "leader" of the gang (he was the biggest, the stupidest, the drunkest and the ugliest, so I assume he was the leader, though insights into scumbag hierarchies aren't my particular area of expertise) proceeded to try to punch me. Being big, drunk and slow, he missed several times, but he kept trying to punch me, and so I had to do something. Bearing in mind that I was in a Civil Defence uniform, I didn't want to be seen brawling with drunken louts, and definitely didn't want to injure one, as it wouldn't look good, but I had no choice but to react. So I caught one of his more ponderous punches, turned his arm into an arm lock, and shoved him to the ground, where I restrained him until the situation had been handled (surprisingly, by one of the more responsible of the gang of drunks, who calmed his cohorts down and told them to run away before the police got there). While I was restraining the leader, I was hit several times by the others in the back of the head and the side of the jaw, leaving me with some impressive bruises, but no major injuries.

tl;dr- Yeah, once, kind of.

EuropeanSon

Here's what I PMed you, just so others can read it.

I wouldn't be too worried tbh, I spoke to the Civil Defence officer in charge at the scene on the day, he knew what happened. I also went to the police. There was no disciplinary action taken against me, and why would there be? I defended myself, and also stopped a racially motivated assault from taking place. Last time I checked, preventing people from potentially being hospitalised was a good thing.

When you are done being silly, perhaps you can focus your energies on more important (as in slightly important, rather than trivial) matters?

As I said in my post, I was initially trying to calm the situation, then when I was assaulted I refrained from fighting back, and just restrained the guy who was assaulting me.

Hooch

Little* bit of an OTT thread???

I dont think this is a big deal.....infact, fair play for not standing by EuropeanSon





(*and when I say little I mean HUGELY)




I'll allow this to stay open as a discussion. and more big font and its closed.

PatientBear

I have to say, the original post reminds me of some of the NCO guys in the FCA years ago who were always ready to bark orders at you but weren't to be seen when you had a serious issue that you needed their help with. Basically, a little power trip at the recruits expense.

That guy stepped into to prevent a racist assault and took a few knocks while he was doing it, and you go at him hammer and tongs about protocol? Get a grip...

Dave0301

SeaSlacker, what would you have done? Not defend yourself and take the punches or use reasonable force in self defense?

SheFiend

Here, here. What would you say, if you were being assaulted and EuropeanSon stood watching you, ignoring your need for assistance, because of the clothes he was wearing?

I imagine something along the same lines as the opening post.

NGA

NGA wrote: »

I'll allow this to stay open as a discussion. and more big font and its closed.[/B]

I do beg pardon for the rage size, and I commend EourSon for his aims and the results, but the fact is he walked into a dangerous situation by himself in uniform. That's where my big issue is.

Considering his leader has already spoke on he matter to him, it's pretty much closed as far as a disciplinary matter. This had huge potential to go wrong, and the OP was wrong not to look to other options before going in alone in uniform.

Dave0301 wrote: »

SeaSlacker, what would you have done? Not defend yourself and take the punches or use reasonable force in self defense?

Run. Call a Priority Three on the radio. Look for backup. Call 112 saying emergency personnel are in danger. At the very very very least, have a second CD member with you. We're not paid for this, we can't overstep our role.

If you're walking over in uniform, then you don't threaten to call the cops, you call the cops before you head over. Better off looking at a cop saying "it's grand, but thanks," than lying on the ground getting the sh*t kicked out of you with no one aware what you're doing.

Scene Safety is the *very* first consideration, drilled into us from the very beginning. It could so easily have become two missing CD members, and the rest of the CD team would have had to abandon the duty and look for them.

To be clear ES, I've no issue with you deciding to act, or what happened once they started swinging at you, you did what you had to do to defend yourself. It's the fact you went over by yourself, without having guards on the way or even a second CD volunteer with you into a situation that you knew was about to become dangerous.

I suppose the important thing is that you did speak with both your leaders and the cops about it in the end, so it's water under the bridge at this stage.

EuropeanSon

I accept that in hindsight, the better option would have been to call the guards, but I didn't quite think quickly enough at the time, and didn't think of their presence until I was already involved in the situation.

This isn't to say that the CD officer at the scene was very happy with me. He did tell me I should have done differently, but didn't think it called for disciplinary action against me.

To the suggestion that I should have brought another CD member with me to the situation, I didn't do so on the grounds that (i)being much smeller than me and female, the 3 other members who I was patrolling with wouldn't be much help and putting them in harm's way wasn't something I wanted to do, and (ii) the other members at the event were at the other side of the event, several fields away (it was a country fair sort of thing, as I've said). My friend was there, and he ran to get the police when I told him to, as soon as the guy threw the first punch. The police, alas, arrived after the perpetrators had dispersed.

dlofnep

Europeanson, what you did was brave and right. The OP is OTT.

Shield

dlofnep wrote: »

The OP is OTT.

Attack the post, not the poster.

Owen

Is that not what he's doing? To some people OP means Original Post, to other's it's Original Poster.

EL_Loco

kept a cool head,
used restraint and control,
took a few slaps while doing it,
and defended a civilian.

you're right, not the type of chap for the civil defence at all at all.

tiernanobrien

So what you'd just leave a mate there knowing he was at risk of being hurt? Some friend you are. Also, I seriously doubt if you were in his boots you'd just let people try punch you... you'd react. If a scumbag swung at gardai he would be knocked around with a baton and commended. If you claim to be part of the 'civil defence' you should think more closely as to what that actually means. Fair play EuropeanSon

Shield

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Is that not what he's doing? To some people OP means Original Post, to other's it's Original Poster.

The people who think OP means Original Post need to read boards' helpful wiki on the abbreviation.

Now please, don't discuss moderator instructions on-thread again.

miju

Dave0301 wrote: »

SeaSlacker, what would you have done? Not defend yourself and take the punches or use reasonable force in self defense?

Not gotten into the situation in the first place using simple de-escalation techniques and worse comes to worst simple break away techniques when punches are thrown NOT get into a brawl type situation.

Now am not in the CD but I thought this was fairly basic training in all the voluntary orgs. I'd be genuinely curious also as an outsider if anyone could tell me where in the Civil Defence Act or elsewhere it gives CD vols permission to intervene in what was essentially a public order issue in the first place which is obv the role of AGS.

EuropeanSon

miju wrote: »

Not gotten into the situation in the first place using simple de-escalation techniques and worse comes to worst simple break away techniques when punches are thrown NOT get into a brawl type situation.

Now am not in the CD but I thought this was fairly basic training in all the voluntary orgs. I'd be genuinely curious also as an outsider if anyone could tell me where in the Civil Defence Act or elsewhere it gives CD vols permission to intervene in what was essentially a public order issue in the first place which is obv the role of AGS.

Clearly, it doesn't, and I didn't. I was just talking to a person in a field until said person assaulted me without provocation. I didn't do anything until I acted in self defence to stop someone assaulting me, which I assume anyone is allowed to do, and is not an offence of any description.

fenris

Get a grip Seaslacker it is the CD, not AGS, there is no expectation in the eyes of the public of anything beyond incorrect directions to the entrance/exit/toilet. While it is great that you have read some of the rules and regs, the actual result on the day was probably a bit more important or is there a merit badge for being beaten to a pulp in a manner likely to promote peace and goodwill for all?

Shield

fenris wrote: »

Get a grip Seaslacker...

People are entitled to their opinions. No flaming. First and only warning.

FRIENDO

@EuropeanSon, From reading your post I find that you are very lucky to survive without serious injuruy or worse.
If this was to happen again I think it might be better for you if you escorted your friend from the danger area and reported the matter to the Gardai or better report the matter to the Gardai before going to aid your friend.

Well EuroSon, you say that you already told your commander and he wishes you did it a different way. That's grand. Fact is, it happened, you and your friend got the other side of it unscathed and hopefully you've learned from it. I was tempted to edit out my first response, but I'll leave it as an example of the explosion of anger that happens when someone sees what they perceive to be a major breach of protocol. Suffice to say I've calmed down (as big shouters do if you give them time )

I'd hate to think that our protocols prevent us from doing the right thing, but they are there for a reason. The main reason why we never act alone in CD is because, God forbid something happened to you alone, there would be no way of alerting your team that one of their members is injured. It might be hours before control twigs that "hang on, if he's not with you.....and he's not over with you.........then where is he?" and in that time who knows what could have happened to you?

You do deserve to be commended for acting when others would not have, but I do hope the experience was a lesson learned!

As another boardsie (guy called "sam") puts it:
"Protect yourself, so you can protect others. You are worth it, and so are they."

randylonghorn

We all learn from experience; not just from experience of being in the CD or VES organisations, but from experience of life. Theroretical training is both necessary and good, but often it's not until we are put into a particular situation, especially one like this which is to do with interaction with people and events rather than technical, and either get it right or wrong or somewhere in between, and *reflect* on that experience, that the whole thing falls properly into place and gets internalised.

EuropeanSon is quite young; as he has already pointed out in Post no. 8, he has learned from this experience.

EuropeanSon

FRIENDO wrote: »

@EuropeanSon, From reading your post I find that you are very lucky to survive without serious injury or worse.
If this was to happen again I think it might be better for you if you escorted your friend from the danger area and reported the matter to the Gardai or better report the matter to the Gardai before going to aid your friend.

I don't really feel that the former was an option, though the latter was obviously the best solution, in hindsight. Once I arrived on scene, it would not have been possible to escort my friend from their presence without first calming things down, I think.

CaptainSkidmark

A bit OTT by OP but European son should have called Control and reported it straight away and stayed clear of it.

discus

Deleted User wrote: »

As another boardsie (guy called "sam") puts it:
"Protect yourself, so you can protect others. You are worth it, and so are they."

It was only a few punches. If you think that leaving a friend behind in any situation is fine, well....

Deleted User wrote: »

You do deserve to be commended for acting when others would not have, but I do hope the experience was a lesson learned!

Lesson learned by EuropeanSon - do what is right and just, and the majority will see you treated fairly, as witnessed in this thread.

searescue

Deleted User wrote: »

Run. Call a Priority Three on the radio. Look for backup. Call 112 saying emergency personnel are in danger. At the very very very least, have a second CD member with you. We're not paid for this, we can't overstep our role.

If you're walking over in uniform, then you don't threaten to call the cops, you call the cops before you head over. Better off looking at a cop saying "it's grand, but thanks," than lying on the ground getting the sh*t kicked out of you with no one aware what you're doing.

Scene Safety is the *very* first consideration, drilled into us from the very beginning. It could so easily have become two missing CD members, and the rest of the CD team would have had to abandon the duty and look for them.

To be clear ES, I've no issue with you deciding to act, or what happened once they started swinging at you, you did what you had to do to defend yourself. It's the fact you went over by yourself, without having guards on the way or even a second CD volunteer with you into a situation that you knew was about to become dangerous.

I suppose the important thing is that you did speak with both your leaders and the cops about it in the end, so it's water under the bridge at this stage.

:rolleyes: