Government intends to ban the sale of raw milk in Ireland

Red Cortina

I'm a member of the WAPF and got the email posted below today. Now I'm not really a milk drinker as it just doesn't agree with me. But I just thought I'd post this up for any of you raw milk drinkers out there...

Government Intends to ban the sale of Raw Milk in Ireland

Legislation has been drafted without Public Consultation and it could become law in autumn 2011

OUR POSITION
We in Sheridans believe that everyone has a right to drink one of Irelands best products; milk in its pure
unadulterated creamy and delicious form - raw milk.

We have been selling raw milk from David Tiernans farm in Dunleer, Co. Louth in our shops since November 2010 and have had a fantastic response from customers. We are also aware of two other producers in Ireland selling raw milk. Darina Allen; at her Ballymaloe farm shop in Cork and Aidan Harney from his farm in Ballymore Eustace, Co. Kildare.

Exercise your right to choose and try it while you still can.

The choice is the key point here...

We want to ensure that we have an open and public debate about the issue and that the government conducts themselves in a transparent manner. It should be noted that request made under the freedom of information act in relation to the drafting of legislation to Ban Raw Milk have been recently denied. By banning raw milk we are sending the message to the world that we dont trust our regulators, we dont
trust our farmers and we dont trust our milk.

We would welcome and encourage regulations on the sale of raw milk... As with any other food proper
regulation is necessary and correct.

At present the sale of raw milk is legal because of a 2007 EU directiveii. Four years later the FSAI have not introduced guidelines or imposed regulations on the sale of raw milk. Yet it is by no means desirable that every dairy farm in Ireland be permitted to sell raw milk. The solution that the FSAI have come up with is an outright ban, whereas for other foods produced, where there is a potential risk to public health; regulations, rather than bans have been imposed. Examples are Shellfish, Raw milk cheese, Beef, Chicken, Eggs

PUBLIC CONSULTATION
In 2008 a public consultation was undertaken regarding the sale of raw goats and sheeps milk. 17
submissions were received. Requests made under the freedom of information act in relation to these
submissions in relation to the drafting of legislation to Ban Raw Milk have been recently denied.iii
The odd and confusing contradictions about the ban: From a scientific stand point risk analysis is a key
term there does not appear to us to be a difference in the results of risk analysis performed for soft raw
milk cheese which is sold young and for liquid milk, yet the government (thankfully) does not propose a
ban on raw milk cheese - instead producers are heavily regulated.

The government is not proposing a ban on raw milk butter, citing as their reason, the addition of saltiv, yet
there is also no legislation being drafted to cover unsalted butter and - in any event, addition of salt is not a substitution for destroying pathogens as happens with Pasteurisation (heat treatment to 72C for 15-20
seconds) A Missed Small Business opportunity?

Raw milk production is a very real and viable business model for small farmers, servicing their local
communities who could modify existing facilities and put a single refrigerated delivery vehicle on the road with only a relatively modest investment and would be more than happy to operate under fair regulations.

Currently farmers selling milk to Co-ops get .33c-.35c per litrev. Raw milk is being sold direct from the
farmer at a retail price of approximately 1.50 - 2.00 per litre. The average price of a litre of pasteurised
homogenised commercially processed milk in supermarkets is from about 1.20 - 1.60vi.

It is not simply about cutting out the middlemen, consumers recognise economies of scale for these small
farmers and as such are prepared to pay a premium probably even well above current raw milk prices.

In Short...Our desired outcome is that regulations on the sale of raw liquid milk in Ireland are imposed. The aim of this is to allow consumers the freedom to make an informed choice whilst also minimising and managing potential risks.

WHAT YOU CAN DO
Contact the following, preferably by email and by post:
Your local Politicians (click the below link to find contact details for TDs in your area)
http://www.oireachtas.ie/members-hist/default.asp?housetype=0&HouseNum=31&disp=mem#tabs-3
The Minister for Agriculture Fisheries & Food Simon Coveney
Minister Simon Coveney
Dail Eireann,
Leinster House,
Dublin 2
01 6183753
simon.coveney@oir.ie

Emails and letters can also be addressed directly to the Department:
Head Office
Department of Agriculture Fisheries and Food
Agriculture House,
Kildare St.
Dublin 2.
info@agriculture.gov.ie

Other Organisations:
If you are a member of a farming or agriculture organisation such as Macra Na Feirme, IFA or ICSA or
indeed any other relevant organisation, ask them to lobby on your behalf.

Letters and emails should include:
Your full name and address and contact details
Sample Text as Follows:
I am very concerned to hear that legislation has been drafted to ban the sale of raw milk in Ireland. I also strongly object to the fact that there has been no public consultation process. I want to continue to have the choice to drink raw milk I am asking that you take a balanced approach and impose regulations on the industry and not an outright ban of the sale of raw milk.

FURTHER READING
It is worth bearing in mind that there has obviously been a lot more money and time available to the antiraw milk campaign in that it is supported by large business worldwide.
There are also plenty of emotive statements made on both sides not backed up by scientific fact.

So read and research, but as ever read with caution!
http://www.realmilk.com/
http://www.seedsofhealth.co.uk/articles/index_dairy.shtml
http://www.campaignforrealmilk.co.uk/
http://cowluck.blogspot.com/2011/06/unpasteurised-milk-raw-issue.html
http://www.fsai.ie/search-results.html?searchString=unpasteurised milk
http://www.food.gov.uk/foodindustry/guidancenotes/hygguid/rawmilkcream
http://www.fda.gov/Food/ResourcesForYou/Consumers/ucm079516.htm

i Article by Ella McSweeney in The Examiner, Farming Supplement 23rd June 2011
ii Under EU law (2007) EC 178/2002, it is legal for a farmer to sell raw milk. This rescinded Irish law (1997) which
banned the sale of raw milk.
iii Article by Ella McSweeney in The Examiner, Farming Supplement 23rd June 2011
iv Article by Ella McSweeney in The Examiner, Farming Supplement 23rd June 2011
v Irish Creameries Milk Suppliers Association Press Release 28th May 2011
vi Tesco Ireland Website

Mellor

I was under the impression that it was already banned, or at least restricted.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Fair play. Like the rare burgers, people should have the option to consume these things if they wish

Red Cortina

Mellor wrote: »

I was under the impression that it was already banned, or at least restricted.

I thought so too! I don't really know anything about raw milk though. Thought it would be of interest to folks who are milk drinkers

El_Dangeroso

Mellor wrote: »

I was under the impression that it was already banned, or at least restricted.

Me too, if not where the hell was it on sale?

Red Cortina

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Me too, if not where the hell was it on sale?

A couple of months ago I bought a litre of raw milk in Cavistons in Dublin. I had just joined the WAPF and thought 'Milk doesn't really agree with me but maybe that's because it is pasteurised. Let me try this raw milk instead.'

And for my trouble I ended up with about 6 mini white-head pimpley things all across my face. Not. Nice. Dunno why that happened but it was enough to put me off milk, raw or otherwise...

Mellor

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Fair play. Like the rare burgers, people should have the option to consume these things if they wish

Disagree slightly.

Eating raw mince is bad. For obvious reasons. There needs to be control on restuarants in this regard. Simply allowing them to serve as they like is not good.
I don'r agree with a blanket ban. If restaurants wish to cater for those food choices, they have to do it right. Freshly minced, steak tartare style.

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Me too, if not where the hell was it on sale?

I've heard of people buying it direct from dairys, but was under the impression this was very low key

El_Dangeroso

Mellor wrote: »

Disagree slightly.

Eating raw mince is bad. For obvious reasons. There needs to be control on restuarants in this regard. Simply allowing them to serve as they like is not good.
I don'r agree with a blanket ban. If restaurants wish to cater for those food choices, they have to do it right. Freshly minced, steak tartare style.

I've heard of people buying it direct from dairys, but was under the impression this was very low key

That's true, even with raw milk I'm in two minds. The quality has to be beyond reproach and there should be standards imposed upon this.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Mellor wrote: »

Disagree slightly.

Eating raw mince is bad. For obvious reasons. There needs to be control on restuarants in this regard. Simply allowing them to serve as they like is not good.
I don'r agree with a blanket ban. If restaurants wish to cater for those food choices, they have to do it right. Freshly minced, steak tartare style.

Can understand what you mean. However I feel this could be catered for with a warning, ie not suitable for those with potentially compromised immune systems. As most people will have no ill-effects from a rare burger.

In the ambulance chasing world we live in you are probably right, and my suggestion isn't practical. I just wish society could be more mature about it.

Mellor

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Can understand what you mean. However I feel this could be catered for with a warning, ie not suitable for those with potentially compromised immune systems. As most people will have no ill-effects from a rare burger.

In the ambulance chasing world we live in you are probably right, and my suggestion isn't practical. I just wish society could be more mature about it.

I still disagree.
A rare burger cooked properly, with fresh mince, won't cause anyone paticular problems, unless they have a weak immune system.

But meat that's a few days only isn't going to be as safe. Bacteria level will we way higher and this needs to be cooked through to kill them. Once cooked through its fine.
But having a warning as the only requirement doesn't stop places serving these burgers rare if requested. Which is why there needs to be tight controls in place.

And i agree with El Dangeroso above, the exact same applies to the issue of raw milk

whelan1

any chance this could be moved to farming and forestry ?

corkcomp

Its very easy for some unsavoury substances to end up in milk on farms and I've seen it happen several times, cluster falls off a cow and maybe sucks in some excrement etc.. sorry for the graphic nature of this post but trust me it happens. personally id be in favour of a ban on (public) selling of raw milk.. if anyone wants to drink it, go find a farmer who will give you some from his / her tank.

Bullseye1

The rest of Europe are laughing at Ireland and its food laws. The EU may propose laws for food and hygiene but it appears only Ireland actually implements them. Just look at all of those travel programs including cookery programs and see the cheeses and breads being made the same way they have been for +500 years in France, Spain and Italy.

El_Dangeroso

corkcomp wrote: »

Its very easy for some unsavoury substances to end up in milk on farms and I've seen it happen several times, cluster falls off a cow and maybe sucks in some excrement etc.. sorry for the graphic nature of this post but trust me it happens. personally id be in favour of a ban on (public) selling of raw milk.. if anyone wants to drink it, go find a farmer who will give you some from his / her tank.

On the same principle would you be an advocate of banning raw cheese too?

Same risks apply.

corkcomp

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

On the same principle would you be an advocate of banning raw cheese too?

Same risks apply.

I dont have an opinion on raw cheese. In any event the consumption of milk per person / day is far greater. Personally I wouldnt consume raw dairy products, period.

Animord

corkcomp wrote: »

Its very easy for some unsavoury substances to end up in milk on farms and I've seen it happen several times, cluster falls off a cow and maybe sucks in some excrement etc.. sorry for the graphic nature of this post but trust me it happens. personally id be in favour of a ban on (public) selling of raw milk.. if anyone wants to drink it, go find a farmer who will give you some from his / her tank.

That's why milk is extensively tested and the production of it highly controlled.

I was brought up on a diary farm we drank it all the time. Clearly you can't have inept farmers producing it, but if it is well regulated and people know the risks then we should be able to buy it.

corkcomp

Animord wrote: »

That's why milk is extensively tested and the production of it highly controlled.

I was brought up on a diary farm we drank it all the time. Clearly you can't have inept farmers producing it, but if it is well regulated and people know the risks then we should be able to buy it.

Yes, and pasteurisation is there as a final safeguard.

Definately, but those are two very big IF's. I wouldnt be in favour of people being allowed to see raw milk in farmers markets and other uncontrolled environments as there really arent any safe guards in place.

El_Dangeroso

corkcomp wrote: »

I dont have an opinion on raw cheese. In any event the consumption of milk per person / day is far greater. Personally I wouldnt consume raw dairy products, period.

I'd also want regulation and a high degree of quality assurance if you're going to sell raw but an outright ban is draconian in my opinion.

Some raw french cheeses have an unbelievable taste that would be totally ruined by pastuerisation.

You take a risk when crossing the street so it should be up to the individual whether they want to consume raw dairy products as long as a basic level of quality is assured.

If you've never tried Roquefort cheese you haven't lived!

Rakish

Well done for posting this. Raw milk is a fantastic product.

IR

corkcomp wrote: »

Yes, and pasteurisation is there as a final safeguard.

Definately, but those are two very big IF's. I wouldnt be in favour of people being allowed to see raw milk in farmers markets and other uncontrolled environments as there really arent any safe guards in place.

Hi There,

That's really the point though... for the last 4 years the sale of raw milk in Ireland has been legal without ANY regulations - however not many people or even producers were aware of this. It was only really in 2010 that anyone started publicly selling raw milk.
Those of us who wish to see raw milk remain legally available also call for regulations to be implemented.
It is by no means appropriate for all dairy farms to be allowed to sell raw milk. It would however be a disgrace if the proposed outright ban goes ahead.

Anyone in favour should as well as taking the action outlined in the initial post - got to Slow Food ireland website to read more info and sign the petition.

Cheers

whelan1

corkcomp wrote: »

Its very easy for some unsavoury substances to end up in milk on farms and I've seen it happen several times, cluster falls off a cow and maybe sucks in some excrement etc.. sorry for the graphic nature of this post but trust me it happens. personally id be in favour of a ban on (public) selling of raw milk.. if anyone wants to drink it, go find a farmer who will give you some from his / her tank.

the milk is filtered before entering the tank- on EVERY dairy farm... what is cow pooh only grass, these farmers are cutting out the processor thats all

corkcomp

whelan1 wrote: »

the milk is filtered before entering the tank- on EVERY dairy farm... what is cow pooh only grass, these farmers are cutting out the processor thats all

the "sock" filter at the end of the line filters physical matter only, it wont stop bacteria or any other nasties, as im sure you are aware. Im sure most people would rather stay well clear of cow faeces, grass or not;)

IR

corkcomp wrote: »

the "sock" filter at the end of the line filters physical matter only, it wont stop bacteria or any other nasties, as im sure you are aware. Im sure most people would rather stay well clear of cow faeces, grass or not;)

I'd have to agree with this. Fecal matter should not be allowed to enter the milk, filter or not filter! - Best practices need to be observed and extra measures should be taken during milking of cows where milk is intended to be sold raw to consumers. This should be part of the regulations introduced for raw milk producers.

Producers of raw milk are highly conscious of potential risks and do everything possible to ensure clean milk. Any good producer will welcome fair regulations.
But why should we ban it out of hand.
Many, indeed most foods have risks associated but aren't banned - instead they are regulated...

Usertaken

Hello Mr Coveney,

I’m writing to you today in regards to the proposed non-public consultation on the banning of raw milk. The Milk you buy in shops is dead…. It’s not a food it’s something to put in cereal and tea etc etc.
Raw Milk as follows offers the following below. To be fair we live in Ireland…. Probably more Cows than dogs which would be hard ! To ban raw milk for the sake of some over trumped non-scientific facts is as silly as it is intruding on people’ choice. Would they prefer perhaps I take up drinking alcohol ?

---

1) It is a LIVE food. That means it has live enzymes. One enzyme in particular, lactase, allows you to digest it. I have friends who are lactose intolerant, and every single one of them can drink it and get the benefits...there are other enzymes such as phosphatase, which allows you to absorb calcium. Ever wonder why we have more osteoporosis then ever, despite the fact we drink tons of milk..simple...pasteurization destroys this enzyme...it also has lipase and protease by the way...
1b) It is a live food. This means that has live beneficial bacteria. This helps strengthen your digestive and immune system. Good bacteria in your gut is a KEY to vitality.
When milk is pasteurized - in addition to enzymes being destroyed...the good bacteria is killed off too. Actually the bacteria changes its shape, and many people suffer allergic or histamine reactions from the weird new bacteria that is damaged.
2) Raw milk is never homogenized. Homogenization is nothing more than a process done to mix the cream in the milk so it doesn't rise to the top. There is no useful reason for this other than cosmetic reasons. The bad thing is that the fats are damaged by this process.
3) For those of you who have kids - there are MANY studies that show children fed raw milk have stronger immune systems, more resistant to certain diseases...etc. The Mayo clinic (Dr J.E. Crewe was very well known), used to use raw milk treat all kinds of things like kidney disease, high blood pressure, and on and on.
This really isn't all that surprizing as the butterfat in raw milk contains alot of short and mediun chain fatty acids, which are well known for their immune system strengthening, and protection against disease.

Feel free to post this to your member, offers a bit more advice. Govt intruding on my ability to be healthy GREAT.

itsallaboutheL

Mellor wrote: »

I was under the impression that it was already banned, or at least restricted.

So was I. Interesting.

whelan1 wrote: »

the milk is filtered before entering the tank- on EVERY dairy farm...l

Um.. no it's not.

IR

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

(in agreement to previous post - "I was under the impression that it was already banned")
So was I. Interesting.

It was banned in ireland in 1996 - but this ban was superseded by a 2007 EU directive, though I think lots of people only really discovered this fact properly last year..

Effectively selling raw milk in ireland has been legal and subject to no extra regulations for the last five years.

the department of Ag's stance is that by banning it now they are simply maintaining the ban as it was in 1996.

tribesman44

i drank raw milk all the time when i was in america. if it comes from a reputable source is it perfectly safe. any food can make you sick if its not handled/reared properly. if people have the choice to drink alcohol and smoke fags, they should have the option to drink raw milk. also, raw cheese can be found all over ireland. it makes no sense. im sure the dairy industries are in bed with the food board of ireland or something. raw milk is infinitely healthier.

LostCovey

tribesman44 wrote: »

i drank raw milk all the time when i was in america. if it comes from a reputable source is it perfectly safe. any food can make you sick if its not handled/reared properly. if people have the choice to drink alcohol and smoke fags, they should have the option to drink raw milk. also, raw cheese can be found all over ireland. it makes no sense. im sure the dairy industries are in bed with the food board of ireland or something. raw milk is infinitely healthier.

Can anybody explain why raw milk costs 1.50 a litre, if the farmer is getting less than 30 cents a litre from the co-op for raw milk. At least the co-op selling pasteurised milk can plead processing costs.

This campaign against the ban on raw milk sales seems to be largely driven by commercial interests who flog raw milk to people who think it is safe, or worse, who think it has 'special properties'.

It's very cynical, but very instructive to look at the amount of threads that have been whipped up on boards.ie by people like IR - out of all proportion to the number of people actually affected by the vital public health measure that is proposed.

It has been a very effective lobby in getting media time too, despite the fact that all the science, including some papers they have quoted, provides strong evidence for the value of a ban.

LC

tribesman44

don't even bother responding to lost covey. its pointless. i am unsubscribing to the thread because he/she is even in here.

whelan1

tribesman44 wrote: »

don't even bother responding to lost covey. its pointless. i am unsubscribing to the thread because he/she is even in here.

just put him on your ignore list works a treat... and you're not getting annoyed by reading the replies:D then you can read the sensible ones

nice_guy80

you can be guaranteed this is being pushed by the dairy industry. and their lobbyists.

just like the 'a pint of milk helps your bones' campaign
which has not been proved by science


in fact, our bodies cannot extract most of the calcium in milk and it passes straight through our body.
you'd be better off eating broccolli

and the food pyramid - 'eat dairy once a day' bullshít.

LostCovey

nice_guy80 wrote: »

you can be guaranteed this is being pushed by the dairy industry. and their lobbyists.

just like the 'a pint of milk helps your bones' campaign
which has not been proved by science


in fact, our bodies cannot extract most of the calcium in milk and it passes straight through our body.
you'd be better off eating broccolli

and the food pyramid - 'eat dairy once a day' bullshít.

I am sure that you are quite correct in your assertion that this is being pushed by the dairy industry, but the reason they are pushing it (in my opinion) is fear of a large scale/high profile disease outbreak resulting from the consumption of raw milk, and the resultant disproportionate damage that will do to our biggest indigenous industry.

You might have a point about the calcium, maybe most is lost, but not all. However the other side of the coin is that most people will drink several portions of milk per day, in cereal, tea, coffee, butter. Broccoli simply does not have that potential for most of us.

LostCovey

LostCovey

whelan1 wrote: »

the milk is filtered before entering the tank- on EVERY dairy farm... what is cow pooh only grass, these farmers are cutting out the processor thats all

These filters just remove large foreign matter, they do not remove bacteria or viruses - that is the problem.

whelan1 wrote: »

what is cow pooh only grass

Well, I don't think that is true, as cattle faeces contains many nasties, and has been shown to carry E. coli 0157 which is the big fear. However Salmonella, TB are also potential risks from raw milk, hence the impetus to restore this safety measure.

LC

nice_guy80

LostCovey wrote: »

I am sure that you are quite correct in your assertion that this is being pushed by the dairy industry, but the reason they are pushing it (in my opinion) is fear of a large scale/high profile disease outbreak resulting from the consumption of raw milk, and the resultant disproportionate damage that will do to our biggest indigenous industry.

You might have a point about the calcium, maybe most is lost, but not all. However the other side of the coin is that most people will drink several portions of milk per day, in cereal, tea, coffee, butter. Broccoli simply does not have that potential for most of us.

LostCovey

why consume all that milk and dairy? its not good for you

El_Dangeroso

Wow this thread went from a discussion on consumer choice to soapboxing and misinformation pretty quick huh.

LostCovey

nice_guy80 wrote: »

why consume all that milk and dairy? its not good for you

Hey, nice guy 80, you have a point in that there are fat & cholesterol to think about, but in moderation i think its not so bad. I am arguing against those who want its inherent health issues, such as they are, augmented with a whole load of others (pathogens).

LC

metamorphosis

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Wow this thread went from a discussion on consumer choice to soapboxing and misinformation pretty quick huh.

You sound surprised!

LostCovey wrote: »

Hey, nice guy 80, you have a point in that there are fat & cholesterol to think about, but in moderation i think its not so bad. I am arguing against those who want its inherent health issues, such as they are, augmented with a whole load of others (pathogens).

LC

But the fat in milk is one of its more 'redeeming' qualities no? It has a good bit of CLA. And that cholesterol thing - binned a while back.

El_Dangeroso

metamorphosis wrote: »

You sound surprised!

I'm just surprised I wasn't involved in a degeneration of a thread for once.:pac:

LostCovey

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

I'm just surprised I wasn't involved in a degeneration of a thread for once.:pac:

To be honest, it wasn't exactly a unique & special thread. Some people have been going around the forums trying to stir up a groundswell of opposition against the measure.

Their the lack of any logical arguments, and the small percentage of people who object to pasteurisation has somewhat deflated the campaign, but on they go.

So I won't be accused of dragging it downmarket, it was pretty tawdry to start with.

LC

El_Dangeroso

LostCovey wrote: »

To be honest, it wasn't exactly a unique & special thread. Some people have been going around the forums trying to stir up a groundswell of opposition against the measure.

Their the lack of any logical arguments, and the small percentage of people who object to pasteurisation has somewhat deflated the campaign, but on they go.

So I won't be accused of dragging it downmarket, it was pretty tawdry to start with.

LC

lol

nice_guy80

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Wow this thread went from a discussion on consumer choice to soapboxing and misinformation pretty quick huh.

where is the misinformation?

nice_guy80

LostCovey wrote: »

Hey, nice guy 80, you have a point in that there are fat & cholesterol to think about, but in moderation i think its not so bad. I am arguing against those who want its inherent health issues, such as they are, augmented with a whole load of others (pathogens).

LC

well, nearly all the goodness in milk is killed during pasteurisation

No, I'd be more concerned at the links of cancer to dairy consumption

terradactyl84

who cares if it's good bad or lethal for you? Let you decide what you want to do with your own body. Why do we always look to big brother in the nanny govt for guidanceand to be told what to do? pathetic

El_Dangeroso

nice_guy80 wrote: »

well, nearly all the goodness in milk is killed during pasteurisation

No, I'd be more concerned at the links of cancer to dairy consumption

I think I'm gonna have to do a big long post I can link to debunking the cancer dairy thing. But basically an association proves nothing, and the association isn't actually consistent, for example dairy has been shown to be protective of breast cancer. I think there could be problems with low fat dairy though (due to the calcium being separated from the fat soluble vitamin K2), but full fat dairy has nourished generations of healthy people.

nice_guy80

You see, thats where personal reading comes in. an ability to make up your own mind. (it can be a dangerous thing).

You believe one thing, whereas I believe another.

And I don't need to put up a silly picture to get a point across

El_Dangeroso

nice_guy80 wrote: »

You see, thats where personal reading comes in. an ability to make up your own mind. (it can be a dangerous thing).

You believe one thing, whereas I believe another.

And I don't need to put up a silly picture to get a point across

Apologies, you may have not gotten the reference but if you do a search there's loads of threads debating this to death.

For me it's not about belief, it's about evidence.

Aoi

Lads, I was gonna post something relevant to the topic but I won't bother now,



it adds nothing but an unrealistic picture, I mean nobody's gonna want raw milk if the dog is in charge

LostCovey

terradactyl84 wrote: »

who cares if it's good bad or lethal for you? Let you decide what you want to do with your own body. Why do we always look to big brother in the nanny govt for guidanceand to be told what to do? pathetic

The argument that this is nanny state control freakery a valid viewpoint, but it is a minority one.

Most people expect the state to take a role in food safety, and to ensure the safety of the food chain. We expect them to check takeaway kitchens for rodents & cockroaches, we expect them to ensure that filling station deli's cook their sausages and burgers fully, and that raw milk is properly pasteurised.

So that is the food safety argument. A related argument is that people have the right to take risks and buy chancy food if they want, but the state has an obligation to protect children, who may not have all the information to make a decision that could cause them severe illness or worse.

The other argument is a nakedly economic one.

This country has to find a foreign customer for 90+% of our national dairy output. Even in boom times this was our biggest indigenous industry, and its actual and relative importance to the economy has greatly increased since. We can't afford a major food poisoning outbreak from raw milk, say with deaths - it would wipe the sector out.

And finally, raw milk is not being banned, just its commercial sale, and this whole dust-up is the sound of relatively small, but well connected commercial interests squealing for attention.

LostCovey

LostCovey

....and on the subject of commercial interests, I see Domini Kemp in yesterday's Irish times advising readers to go to http://www.rawmilkireland.com/

for "information. Neglected to mention this site was set up with the sole purpose of lobbying for one side of the debate, and is associated with Sheridan's Cheesemongers, who appear to be driving this whole campaign.

LostCovey

PS Sheridan's sell raw milk, forgot to mention that.

El_Dangeroso

Well of course a enterprise will try to protect its commercial interests. That's not a conspiracy theory, its good business sense.

They also wouldn't be making a fuss if there wasn't a demand for raw milk from consumers in the first place.

I get the point about food industry regulation but the risks can be mitigated with good regulation without an outright ban. For example the risks of trans fats are greater and far more established but there's no word of them being banned.

You don't have to accept any of the benefits claimed by raw milk proponents to know that people should be allowed to purchase it. In my opinion the risks are seriously overblown as long as a high level of quality control is in place. Regulation, not banning is what's needed here.

LostCovey

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Well of course a enterprise will try to protect its commercial interests. That's not a conspiracy theory, its good business sense.

They also wouldn't be making a fuss if there wasn't a demand for raw milk from consumers in the first place.

I get the point about food industry regulation but the risks can be mitigated with good regulation without an outright ban. For example the risks of trans fats are greater and far more established but there's no word of them being banned.

You don't have to accept any of the benefits claimed by raw milk proponents to know that people should be allowed to purchase it. In my opinion the risks are seriously overblown as long as a high level of quality control is in place. Regulation, not banning is what's needed here.

That assumes that the risks from raw milk are associated with quality issues - this is only partly true. Poor quality production exacerbates the risk - good quality production can reduce them, but they are still there.

There is no getting away from the fact that milk is a body fluid extracted from another species.

There is no getting away from the fact that all milk has a somatic cell count (white blood cells, as found in pus).

No matter how much quality control there is, animals will get sick, and pick up infections (many of which are asymptomatic). There is also no escaping the proximity of the udder to the are where dung comes from, to be blunt, so faecal contamination is an ever present risk in even the best run parlours.

Unless each batch is going to be tested before consumption for a wide range of pathogens, there is a risk. That level of testing is impractical (because devotees also like it fresh!) and would be economical, even though the product is currently retailing at a price that is approximately 5 times what the farmer is paid by the creamery (I accept that they may be paying a premium, but this product is still being marked up at least 3 times what it costs - that price would go even further through the roof it it had to support the level of testing that would be required.

I am not saying the risk is huge, but the consequences are very severe for anyone affected. And I expect that is the basis of the risk assessment that was done before this legislation was proposed - a low risk of food-borne contamination, but horrendous consequences when it occurs.

LostCovey