[2011-2012] What really happened to Madeleine McCann?

MapForJ

lugha wrote: »

But many (most?) people posting here do not believe that Madeleine was abducted, rather than she died in some manner of unfortunate accident that may have been prevented had the McCanns provided a better (indeed many would say, basic) level of supervision for their children.

It is with respect to this scenario that I argue that there is no real difference between having a house or garden party where you cannot hear your children and one where you may be a considerable distance from your home.

oh i see. not sure whatv i think of that and not sure i believe she died accidently. Where is the body?

lugha

MapForJ wrote: »

oh i see. not sure whatv i think of that and not sure i believe she died accidently. Where is the body?

You had better put that question to one of the many people who do believe she died accidentally. And while I accept that it is certainly a possible explanation, for me the abduction is still a better (though not perfect) explanation. So I am not one of them.

The exact extent to which the McCanns were negligent in the care of their children is largely a side issue with respect to the central question; i.e. what happened to Madeleine. Some would say it warranted them being prosecuted. I would not go so far but I do think their standard of care fell short of what I would recommend. But as I say, a side issue.

MapForJ

lugha wrote: »

You had better put that question to one of the many people who do believe she died accidentally. And while I accept that it is certainly a possible explanation, for me the abduction is still a better (though not perfect) explanation. So I am not one of them.

The exact extent to which the McCanns were negligent in the care of their children is largely a side issue with respect to the central question; i.e. what happened to Madeleine. Some would say it warranted them being prosecuted. I would not go so far but I do think their standard of care fell short of what I would recommend. But as I say, a side issue.

they can see it here;) as i say where is the body. Where would you hide a body in a place ypu do not know geographically well. Bodies of people killed by people who live near the area have been found let alone a strange place, in the midst of an investigation

thebullkf

MapForJ wrote: »

they can see it here;) as i say where is the body. Where would you hide a body in a place ypu do not know geographically well. Bodies of people killed by people who live near the area have been found let alone a strange place, in the midst of an investigation

the sea?

communal dumpster?.{..iirc bins were collected that morning}

lots of brush and undergrowth in that area also (not syaing she'd be undiscovered but you never know...)

Also wasn't there talk of a fridge being replaced by Gerry mcCann in the apartment....

Also according to the other thread nobody confirms seeing Madeline from 12.30 that day.....

MapForJ

thebullkf wrote: »

the sea?

communal dumpster?.{..iirc bins were collected that morning}

lots of brush and undergrowth in that area also (not syaing she'd be undiscovered but you never know...)

Also wasn't there talk of a fridge being replaced by Gerry mcCann in the apartment....

Also according to the other thread nobody confirms seeing Madeline from 12.30 that day.....

all these places were searched to my knowledge. where do you thionk he put the fridge or how did he get to the sea amidstb the search

thebullkf

MapForJ wrote: »

all these places were searched to my knowledge. where do you thionk he put the fridge or how did he get to the sea amidstb the search

the only timeline available is one given by the mc canns....based on their testimony, it seems impossible...who knows?

Didn't he recycle the fridge

what do you think happened?

MapForJ

thebullkf wrote: »

the only timeline available is one given by the mc canns....based on their testimony, it seems impossible...who knows?

is there not a timeline in the book by the detective, the truth of the lie? it is free to read online

Didn't he recycle the fridge

not heard that before. Did the police track and test it?

what do you think happened?

i do not know but i find it difficult to believe one could hide a body in that short time in a strange area. The bodies of the two girls Holly and Jessica were found pretty quick as was that of Robert Holohan in Cork. This was despite the killers being from the general area and prob had more time before the alarm was raised.

Abduction is possible I think, by person/persons who were watching the mcanns and had time to plan ahead. i do not think it was opportunistic because they would have had to plan a getaway within a very short space of time


I do not pay much attention to the dog evidence, there is a vid on youtube where the dog guy has the dog and he keeps calling the dog back to the mcanns car when the dog was not interested. i do not believe the dog is never wrong

goat2

MapForJ wrote: »

is there not a timeline in the book by the detective, the truth of the lie? it is free to read online
not heard that before. Did the police track and test it?

i do not know but i find it difficult to believe one could hide a body in that short time in a strange area. The bodies of the two girls Holly and Jessica were found pretty quick as was that of Robert Holohan in Cork. This was despite the killers being from the general area and prob had more time before the alarm was raised.

Abduction is possible I think, by person/persons who were watching the mcanns and had time to plan ahead. i do not think it was opportunistic because they would have had to plan a getaway within a very short space of time


I do not pay much attention to the dog evidence, there is a vid on youtube where the dog guy has the dog and he keeps calling the dog back to the mcanns car when the dog was not interested. i do not believe the dog is never wrong

i did not hear that quote before, recycling the fridge, where did that show up, i had heard nothing of the fridge

MapForJ

goat2 wrote: »

i did not hear that quote before, recycling the fridge, where did that show up, i had heard nothing of the fridge

see
http://aconservatives.blogspot.com/2007/09/how-mccanns-killed-madeleine.html

and google gerry mcann recycle the fridge

thebullkf

MapForJ wrote: »

is there not a timeline in the book by the detective, the truth of the lie? it is free to read online

Haven't read it- did you:)

not heard that before. Did the police track and test it?

AFAIk gerry never mentioned it--- twas only afterwards that he admitted to replacing it, cos someone told on him.

i do not know but i find it difficult to believe one could hide a body in that short time in a strange area.

Depends on the timeline you believe...

The bodies of the two girls Holly and Jessica were found pretty quick as was that of Robert Holohan in Cork. This was despite the killers being from the general area and prob had more time before the alarm was raised.

not really comparable to be fair.

Holohans phone was triangulated.

Abduction is possible I think, by person/persons who were watching the mcanns and had time to plan ahead. i do not think it was opportunistic because they would have had to plan a getaway within a very short space of time

assuming the others timeline.

I do not pay much attention to the dog evidence,

more reliable than a lie-detector test...that the McCanns initially refused to take

there is a vid on youtube where the dog guy has the dog and he keeps calling the dog back to the mcanns car when the dog was not interested. i do not believe the dog is never wrong

is it safe to assume that you believe the McCanns versiion then?

MapForJ

thebullkf wrote: »

Haven't read it- did you:)

yes why did you not since you seem to read a lot which agrees with your theory. you should read it anyway

AFAIk gerry never mentioned it--- twas only afterwards that he admitted to replacing it, cos someone told on him.

do not know

Depends on the timeline you believe...

do not necessarily belive any timeline never heard till today she may havebeen dead earlier in the day

not really comparable to be fair.

i think it is . if they could not hide a body where they know the area how could you hode when you do not

Holohans phone was triangulated.

correct but i beieve he would have been found eventually andthe killer knew the area

assuming the others timeline.

??

more reliable than a lie-detector test...that the McCanns initially refused to take

i do not believe the dogs are reliable, certainly not 100% and think Grimes is a know all/egotist. he was clearly calling the dogs back to the car he knew was the mcanns

is it safe to assume that you believe the McCanns versiion then?

assume makes an ass out of u and me:D
No i do not necessarily believe them. i do not know what happened but do not know where the body could be hidden unless you had help

LizT

I honestly believe that if either parent had anything to do with it, they would have broken by now.

Instead, they've hired private investigators to go over every detail of the case under a microscope. Why would they do that if they had any involvement with her dissapperance?

MapForJ

lizt wrote: »

I honestly believe that if either parent had anything to do with it, they would have broken by now.

Instead, they've hired private investigators to go over every detail of the case under a microscope. Why would they do that if they had any involvement with her dissapperance?

always it comes back to the body. it could not be possible to hide a body and clean all traces of it except for Grimes alleged scent which i do not trust.

angwd

MapForJ wrote: »

always it comes back to the body. it could not be possible to hide a body and clean all traces of it except for Grimes alleged scent which i do not trust.

All successful murders result in a well hidden body. The evidence is right there in the PJ files. The blood was found under some very well scrubbed tiles, very well scrubbed walls and freshly laundered curtains. That's a lot of cleaning for holidaymakers. There is also the matter of a missing blue tennis bag.

goat2

MapForJ wrote: »

all these places were searched to my knowledge. where do you thionk he put the fridge or how did he get to the sea amidstb the search

this fridge you mention, is this true that he changed fridge, and if so has the old fridge been found, did he not tell them the whereabouts of the old one, or is the fridge story, just a story without basis

angwd

goat2 wrote: »

this fridge you mention, is this true that he changed fridge, and if so has the old fridge been found, did he not tell them the whereabouts of the old one, or is the fridge story, just a story without basis

I think the fridge story originated from the evidence in the hire car. Gonçalo Amaral states that as the car was only hired 25 days after Madeleine's disappearance so the only way the evidence could have appeared in the car was if she was stored in a freezer. That's what he believes. There were a lot of stories going around about Gerry blogging about dumping a fridge belonging to the apartment. His blogs have been removed but there is a full copy of the originals on the web and there is no mention that I can find of a fridge.

MapForJ

angwd wrote: »

All successful murders result in a well hidden body.

they ae not successful murders with a well hidden body. need a found body

The evidence is right there in the PJ files.

what is that
the book written by the investigator is based on these?

The blood was found under some very well scrubbed tiles, very well scrubbed walls and freshly laundered curtains

are you talking of the dogs.

There is also the matter of a missing blue tennis bag.

the body is in that?

angwd

MapForJ wrote: »

they ae not successful murders with a well hidden body. need a found body

Once a body is found the evidence leads to the Murderer. A successful murder is one where no body is found.

MapForJ wrote: »

what is that
the book written by the investigator is based on these?

No, it was the forensic evidence that was made public by the portuguese police, it's available on the web

MapForJ wrote: »

are you talking of the dogs.

Not really talking about the dogs, they did signal that blood was there and subsequently the police dug up the tiles and found the blood under them

MapForJ wrote: »

the body is in that?

It's claimed that it is. All I know is that the PJ's took photos on the night that Madeleine disappeared. In one of the photos you can clearly see a tennis bag. The bag subsequently disappeared everybody has denied its existence.

MapForJ

angwd wrote: »

Once a body is found the evidence leads to the Murderer. A successful murder is one where no body is found.

No, it was the forensic evidence that was made public by the portuguese police, it's available on the web

Not really talking about the dogs, they did signal that blood was there and subsequently the police dug up the tiles and found the blood under them

It's claimed that it is. All I know is that the PJ's took photos on the night that Madeleine disappeared. In one of the photos you can clearly see a tennis bag. The bag subsequently disappeared everybody has denied its existence.

Did not know about the tennis bag but still say where is the body/tennis bag.

A successful murder is one where no body is found.

as is a successful abduction

Not really talking about the dogs, they did signal that blood was there and subsequently the police dug up the tiles and found the blood under them

was the blood linked to Maddie?

It's claimed that it is

i bet someone else claims it isn't. Being claimed does not prove anything

If the PJs took pics of the bag the night she disappeared and the tennis bag was in them then, if her body was hidden in it, the body would have had to be disposed of when the search/investigation was in full swing

I do not see how they could have disposed of the body, tennis bag or not, so quick and so it was not found while the investigation was in full swing

MapForJ

what about this
some of them cannot even spell and expect to be taken seriously

Do you think Madeleine Mc Cann could be still alive? I too suspect that her parents are involved in her disappearance. I believe that the whole week was a set up, including leaving the children alone every night. Is it possible that Madeleine could be a human clone? This would explain why there are so many Doctors and medical people involved. Is it possible that the parents staged the room and left the DNA there themselves. You would have to check with experts to see if Madeleine’s DNA could have been mixed with fluid from a dead person. Also if there were other embryos left over from Madeleine’s conception that could have been used for this purpose. Kates eggs could have been used without her ever giving birth to Madeleine. I believe the Freemasons and the church are also involved. There is a lot of politics behind this and there has to be a very good reason! If Madeleine comes back they will have made a lot of people look stupid including the portuguese police. They may want to make it look like it is a miracle if she comes back. This would be another reason why her parents have not shown the normal emotions that we would expect to see of normal parents. Gerry has been very arrogant from the start and is smiling in a lot of photos, it is like he is putting on a show for certain people to see. This could be the reason why he didn’t care about making her eye defect public and why he has taunted us all with find the body if they killed her, because they have known who has her all along. They could have been making visits to her while they have been visiting all these countries, the pope and other leaders. Maybe this is why they won’t show Madeleine’s medical records. It would have been very easy for them to forge documents when she was born, due to the amount of people they know in medicine and the government and especially if the government sanctioned this experiment. Please don’t print my email address or give it to anyone. I admire you for doing something productive in bringing her parents to justice. Keep up the good work.

goat2

MapForJ wrote: »

Did not know about the tennis bag but still say where is the body/tennis bag. as is a successful abduction
was the blood linked to Maddie?
i bet someone else claims it isn't. Being claimed does not prove anything

If the PJs took pics of the bag the night she disappeared and the tennis bag was in them then, if her body was hidden in it, the body would have had to be disposed of when the search/investigation was in full swing

I do not see how they could have disposed of the body, tennis bag or not, so quick and so it was not found while the investigation was in full swing

i have followed this case from start, and this is the first time i have heard of a fridge or a blue bag, also it is the first time i have heard of a spring cleaned house, all of which i dont beleive, i also did not hear of maddies blood being found, and anyway if there were blood found, how is it that we hear nothing of proof of who it belonged to or what it belonged to, and i dont beleive for one minuit that the parents had anything to do with their daughters disappearance, people cannot keep up an act that long in public with all eyes on them, they would have cracked long time ago,.

angwd

MapForJ wrote: »

Did not know about the tennis bag but still say where is the body/tennis bag. as is a successful abduction was the blood linked to Maddie? i bet someone else claims it isn't. Being claimed does not prove anything If the PJs took pics of the bag the night she disappeared and the tennis bag was in them then, if her body was hidden in it, the body would have had to be disposed of when the search/investigation was in full swing I do not see how they could have disposed of the body, tennis bag or not, so quick and so it was not found while the investigation was in full swing

MapForJ, you are saying exactly what I said 2 months ago. Since then I read Kate's book and argued this exact point with others and then went through the evidence with an independent mind to prove that anything other than abduction was impossible. But evidence doesn't lie. The tennis bag and forensic evidence are only a very small part of the overall inconsistencies. I think that there is a lot more to this case than meets the eye.

angwd

goat2 wrote: »

i have followed this case from start, and this is the first time i have heard of a fridge or a blue bag, also it is the first time i have heard of a spring cleaned house, all of which i dont beleive, i also did not hear of maddies blood being found, and anyway if there were blood found, how is it that we hear nothing of proof of who it belonged to or what it belonged to, and i dont beleive for one minuit that the parents had anything to do with their daughters disappearance, people cannot keep up an act that long in public with all eyes on them, they would have cracked long time ago,.

Goat 2, the apartment was cleaned to such an extent that there wasn't a trace of Madeleine's DNA anywhere in it, Not a toothbrush, not a hairbrush, not a single hair or trace on the bed clothes despite the fact that Madeleine stayed there for 5 days. Gerry had to fly home to Rothley to get a DNA sample for the PJ's and on the second occasion when they needed more DNA a relative had to go to the house to pick up samples of her hair.

MapForJ

angwd wrote: »

Goat 2, the apartment was cleaned to such an extent that there wasn't a trace of Madeleine's DNA anywhere in it, Not a toothbrush, not a hairbrush, not a single hair or trace on the bed clothes despite the fact that Madeleine stayed there for 5 days. Gerry had to fly home to Rothley to get a DNA sample for the PJ's and on the second occasion when they needed more DNA a relative had to go to the house to pick up samples of her hair.

none at all or not enough to make match?
Flat was not made crime scene immediately

goat2

angwd wrote: »

Goat 2, the apartment was cleaned to such an extent that there wasn't a trace of Madeleine's DNA anywhere in it, Not a toothbrush, not a hairbrush, not a single hair or trace on the bed clothes despite the fact that Madeleine stayed there for 5 days. Gerry had to fly home to Rothley to get a DNA sample for the PJ's and on the second occasion when they needed more DNA a relative had to go to the house to pick up samples of her hair.

it was two months after the disappearance of maddie that the apartment was made a crime scene, and it had been rented out to others in the meantime, of course there would be no traces of maddie, as this apartment was rented out week to week, being completely cleaned down b y the cleaners, how could it be made a crime scene at stage, should have been shut off and locked as soon as maddie went missing.

jargon buster

Once a body is found the evidence leads to the Murderer. A successful murder is one where no body is found.

I beg to differ, a successful murder is one you dont get caught doing, people have been convicted without a body.

Tomk1

alanc2003 wrote: »

But were the doors unlocked? The mccanns only came up with that story after the police found no evidence of a kidnapper climbing in or out of the bedroom window

From reading one of the links sofar, the doors were locked every night except wed/thur, lucky break for the theory of the abuctor, must have been wacthing 24-7 or checking the doors every night without being seen, would of been easier to sign her out of day-care.
Also why only on these two nights was someone other than the parents allowed to check on the kids, (but neither actually checked that M was there) the theory that wed the 2nd was the day M died would fit in here,(and body moved that night/morning) If someone other than the parents found that M was missing while the parents were together in the cafe does almost make a perfect alibi.

lizt wrote: »

I honestly believe that if either parent had anything to do with it, they would have broken by now.

Instead, they've hired private investigators to go over every detail of the case under a microscope. Why would they do that if they had any involvement with her dissapperance?

Was the purpose of the PI to investigate the parents or to find anything at all that would sideline the case away from the McCanns, from watching criminal minds the perps often involve themselves in the case, and attempt to throw the investigation, and find out what the investigators know, the McCanns went to the British press complaining they were not getting information from an ongoing case, to the extent that it got political, getting the British police involved in a case in a foreign country, if it all happened in the UK, they would have been charged with interfering in an ongoing investigation.

The drugs;
How can we believe what drugs they said they had, he's a surgeon so has access to whatever drugs they use to put patients under, she's a GP, last time I was in a GPs he had a draw full of drugs and gave me something straight away. I think KM gave the kids something to sleep and then GM gave something as well to M, both would have a lot to lose, their jobs (after years of study) their new house, never mind jail for giving minors un-prescribed medicine.

Why get rid of the body? if she fell then there’s no point, if abducted and murdered with all that media attention -fast disposal, but if an overdose or reaction from two different medicines then the body is evidence that would lead to an end of their way of life, and losing their other two children, to me seems like the most plausible reason for no body.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned here is the spike in the steel works. I never heard of the fridge but in order for the car to have dead-scent/blood, something would had to be carried in the car.

There is no doubt that they have manipulated the media and the whole course of the investigation from the very start.

There is something that really gets me, right from the very start which makes me think of Shakespeare’s Hamlet.
“The lady doth protest too much, methinks”

dark crystal

Tomk1 wrote: »

There is no doubt that they have manipulated the media and the whole course of the investigation from the very start.

There is something that really gets me, right from the very start which makes me think of Shakespeare’s Hamlet.
“The lady doth protest too much, methinks”

I would protest too if my daughter had been abducted and I was being accused of killing and disposing of her - wouldn't you??

I can't imagine the absolute hell that family have gone through this last four years.

As I've said before, I wouldn't be so quick to judge someone on how they act compared to how you think they should act. Lindy Chamberlain was treated the same way by the public and the media after her daughter was taken, even though she was perfectly innocent. That public conception had her spat on, insulted and slandered and she was convicted of a crime she was later fully exhonerated of.

Tomk1

dark crystal wrote: »

I would protest too if my daughter had been abducted and I was being accused of killing and disposing of her - wouldn't you??

I can't imagine the absolute hell that family have gone through this last four years.

As I've said before, I wouldn't be so quick to judge someone on how they act compared to how you think they should act. Lindy Chamberlain was treated the same way by the public and the media after her daughter was taken, even though she was perfectly innocent. That public conception had her spat on, insulted and slandered and she was convicted of a crime she was later fully exhonerated of.

Don't worry she has 4 of the top lawyers to censor anyone who mentions "they did it", of course none of which are paid for from the charity donations, that money is being used for the search, you know the ads on TV looking for information, also the reconstruction to jog people’s memories, talking about jogging, they could take another jog along the beach just like the last one while they're searching again.

BTW please look up the "quote" from hamlet to fully understand it, especially the fact that it was said by the queen, I wouldn't like to be misinterpreted'

"protest" of the lady is not a protest in the modern sense of the word, but an affirmation or avowal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_lady_doth_protest_too_much,_methinks

dark crystal

Tomk1 wrote: »

Don't worry she has 4 of the top lawyers to censor anyone who mentions "they did it"

Good, because anyone who mentions "they did it" are guilty of defamation, so lawyers would most definitely be the way to go there alright.