Rate the race: Round 08 - European Grand Prix

VW 1

1

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Id love to see Schumacher in that RedBull car.

I'd definitely like to see this, although if he still had his pace and hadn't lost his edge, would he not have earned the seat by now considering that Weber is hardly setting the world alight as the number 2 for RB?

amacachi wrote: »

Probably, though it's still damn hard to tell tbh. He was pretty much just cruising yesterday such is the superiority of the car and I'm fairly sure he hasn't pushed too hard for most of his wins.

I'm probably Sebastian's biggest fan and have been since he was in the Torro Rosso team, but the one time he was pushed and run close this year he messed up and lost it on the last lap. It may have been coincidental that he made the mistake when he happened to have been getting pushed by Button, but it did make me stop and wonder.

amacachi

2

VW 1 wrote: »

I'm probably Sebastian's biggest fan and have been since he was in the Torro Rosso team, but the one time he was pushed and run close this year he messed up and lost it on the last lap. It may have been coincidental that he made the mistake when he happened to have been getting pushed by Button, but it did make me stop and wonder.

Aye, people will point to Monaco and how he held up under pressure there but it was the same all through the field and always is the same there. Unless the lead car is 4-5 seconds off the pace then they shouldn't feel any pressure. I was annoyed at Vettel for spinning in Canada because it would've been brilliant to see a last-corner pass for the win. :pac:

decisions

2

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Id love to see Schumacher in that RedBull car.

That might shut up the BBC and there Shumacher bashing.

Glico Man

2

decisions wrote: »

That might shut up the BBC and there Shumacher bashing.

They've kind of let off a bit now though. DC and MB were both cheering him on in Canada. DC said something quite funny during the Valencia GP when Schumi got his front wing knocked off by saying something like "I remember he was faster than me when he had no front wing and only 3 wheels".

Myrddin

VW 1 wrote: »

through the obvious superiority of the car, does anyone disagree that Vettel is the best driver on the circuit at the moment?

I wouldn't rate him any higher than Alonso or Hamilton tbh (not that thats a bad thing). In fact for me, those two are better 'racers' than Vettel. People will raise the Asian wet race some time ago for TR (which was a super feat) but he never races for wins, Vettels race is on Saturdays. Until I actually see him on a proper charge (not just blue flag overtakes, I'm talking 4/5/6/7 proper overtakes not not the usual 1) & take hold of a race by the scruff of the next & win it...I'll reserve his position in the top five. Anyone who denies he's a top five driver is mad, but I can't & won't place him until I see him doing what Alonso can do...

amacachi wrote: »

Probably, though it's still damn hard to tell tbh. He was pretty much just cruising yesterday such is the superiority of the car and I'm fairly sure he hasn't pushed too hard for most of his wins.

Agreed, in fairness most races are like that for him. Once he's on pole the advantage is his, plus he has a super team for strategy calls & always think outside the box.

VW 1 wrote: »

I'd definitely like to see this, although if he still had his pace and hadn't lost his edge, would he not have earned the seat by now considering that Weber is hardly setting the world alight as the number 2 for RB?

I'm probably Sebastian's biggest fan and have been since he was in the Torro Rosso team, but the one time he was pushed and run close this year he messed up and lost it on the last lap. It may have been coincidental that he made the mistake when he happened to have been getting pushed by Button, but it did make me stop and wonder.

Couldn't see Schui in a RB car, he's too old, doesn't suit their image & will likely be retiring this season, possibly one more. Why bother from an RB perspective when there are fast younger drivers out there who would gladly be a no.2 driver. I don't think he's lost his edge at all, & was robbed of a podium in Canada because of the go faster button. This reflects what I'm saying above, its easy to shine in a fast car...but even proven legends have a tough time shining in midrange cars.

decisions wrote: »

That might shut up the BBC and there Shumacher bashing.

I always get the impression Brundle doesn't tolerate Schui's attitude, but at the same time still respects him for his accomplishments. Can't argue with that. DC on the other hand, comes across all giddy & childlike when Schui gets outta shape...let it go DC, your a complete Sunday driver...its not Schui's fault Joking, but yeah...they have eased up a bit.

amacachi

2

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I get that impression too, although I have never seen anything in print about it though. Brundle was always a fair racer and never resorted to some of the *cough techniques that Schumacher has done in the past :pac:

I think there might be a little bitterness in Brundle about Schumacher as well. Looking back at Brundle's early career he seemed to compete well with Senna but when he got to F1 he didn't get the same opportunities as Senna. By the time he got a half decent car (at 33) he had a young Schumacher as a teammate and started the season with 4 retirements which isn't exactly ideal. :pac:


EDIT: I also look forward to seeing just how good a racer Hamilton turns out to be for the rest of his career now that people have stopped ****ting themselves everytime he makes a lunge.

Myrddin

amacachi wrote: »

EDIT: I also look forward to seeing just how good a racer Hamilton turns out to be for the rest of his career now that people have stopped ****ting themselves everytime he makes a lunge.

I'm sure he's boiling over at this stage. Well out of the rookie phase, he's in his 5th year in F1. He's won one championship, almost two, with a competetive car. The last three seasons have seen the rise of RB, & the relegation of McL & Ferrari from front runners.

He's gone from "I'll never leave McLaren, they're my family & I've been here since I was two months old" etc etc

to..

"As long as the car is competetive, there's no reason to look elsewhere..."

Now while I can understand he probably feels time is slipping away, & is being let down by development...his hot headedness has certainly changed my perspective of him. That being said, F1 drivers are blokes too, they have passions, emotions, & ambition...when things don't go right they are as falible as the rest of us. It's lucky I don't have to speak to reporters every time I f##k up, I'd be imprisoned

He's good enough to be in a better car, but he's immature...I couldn't see him working well beside Vettel...RB will want a clear no.1 & no.2, Hamilton isn't gonna want that.

Autosport

1

I personally couldnt see Hamilton as a no2 driver

VW 1

1

EnterNow wrote: »

I'm sure he's boiling over at this stage. Well out of the rookie phase, he's in his 5th year in F1. He's won one championship, almost two, with a competetive car. The last three seasons have seen the rise of RB, & the relegation of McL & Ferrari from front runners.

He's gone from "I'll never leave McLaren, they're my family & I've been here since I was two months old" etc etc

to..

"As long as the car is competetive, there's no reason to look elsewhere..."

Now while I can understand he probably feels time is slipping away, & is being let down by development...his hot headedness has certainly changed my perspective of him. That being said, F1 drivers are blokes too, they have passions, emotions, & ambition...when things don't go right they are as falible as the rest of us. It's lucky I don't have to speak to reporters every time I f##k up, I'd be imprisoned

He's good enough to be in a better car, but he's immature...I couldn't see him working well beside Vettel...RB will want a clear no.1 & no.2, Hamilton isn't gonna want that.

Some great discussion above lads fair play. I agree that I dont think we would ever see Hamilton as a team mate for Vettel, I'm pretty sure it would end up in a Senna/Prost situation. The pair would be far too competitive and I dont think that Hamilton would have the mentality not to be top dog in the team if it came down to that.

But you cant blame him if he looked for a move to a more competitive team, if someone gets close the RBs.

FWIW of all the drivers on the grid I would rate Alonso as the best racer with Vettel and Hamilton close behind, I think Vettel may just shade it on his ability to race, but Hamilton on his ability/willingness to overtake and take risks if that makes sense.

Myrddin

VW 1 wrote: »

FWIW of all the drivers on the grid I would rate Alonso as the best racer

Agreed, like Hamilton, it must be so tough at times to know your better than what the car can offer you. Alonso for me has it all, he's a winner, he's fast. & he can race. Vettel is a winner, no doubting his speed...but can he race? Maybe he doesn't need to, but I inclined to hold off on comparisons until he takes the 'bull by its horns' so to speak & has to charge through the field for a win. We've seen Alonso do it many times, Hamilton, Button...never seen Vettel do it except that wet race, I need more from him than just Saturday speed. I want to see him racing & mixing it up with the best of them.

VW wrote:

with Vettel and Hamilton close behind, I think Vettel may just shade it on his ability to race, but Hamilton on his ability/willingness to overtake and take risks if that makes sense.

I know what you mean & I agree. But for me, racing is more than setting a pole lap & then only blueflag overtaking. Yes Vettel occasionally has to overtake one, maybe two cars that are not lapped. Normally if its a high profile driver they will be on differing strategies & won't put up a much of a fight. I wan't to see Vettel go from third or fourth after all the stops are done & battle his way through the top drivers. I'm not 100% on his overtaking ability yet.

Myrddin

LIGHTNING wrote: »

In regard to Hamiltons overtaking ability I personally think he can be quite clumsy at times. I think in the past people used to give him far too much room but not any more, hence why he has had a number of incidents lately.

I'd say the wrecklessness is more born out of frustration & temper rather than other drivers. The Monaco race was a display in pure desperation, anger & bad judgement.

Alonso is as aggresive as they come, but I've never seen it cloud his judgement in the way it does Hamilton. Alonso seems to channel it better, it shows in his racing/overtaking.

jonnysimples

2

I gave it a three; like others have said the Alonso/Webber action provided some intrigue as did some of the mid-field action, but i have to confess i did catch myself dozing off at one point! I think Valencia needs to looked at for future F1 events; it seems to repeatedly produce processional races (I read on the beeb that there was one overtake in 2009!).

To the point a couple of people have made about GP2 showing the potential of the track, aren't all of the cars pretty much identical? Meaning it's more or less purely down to driver skill and they'll have an action packed race on just about any track...

Myrddin

14 people so far have given this race a five or over...good few Vettel fans amongst us it seems

amacachi

2

EnterNow wrote: »

I'd say the wrecklessness is more born out of frustration & temper rather than other drivers. The Monaco race was a display in pure desperation, anger & bad judgement.

Alonso is as aggresive as they come, but I've never seen it cloud his judgement in the way it does Hamilton. Alonso seems to channel it better, it shows in his racing/overtaking.

TBH Hamilton has always been rash. As myself and LIGHTNING have been saying for the last few GPs since he got into F1 he's just been launching down the inside of people knowing they wouldn't turn it. I almost think that so an extent maybe most of the frontrunners over the last decade or so got into a habit of of not needing to worry about getting overtaken unless they completely screwed up and kind of lost the will/inclination to turn into a corner with someone inside them. Hamilton should've learned last year from Monza and Singapore (the latter not completely his fault) that maybe people wouldn't move over for him but he doesn't seem to have taken that possibility on board yet. I'm actually struggling to think of many times when Hamilton had to set up a pass or a kinda "skilful" pass that wasn't just getting in a draft and jumping out.

Also the standard of driving in GP2 and below is so hit and miss it's unbelievable. Loads of sending it down the inside with tyre smoke everywhere and a 50/50 as to whether or not the one getting overtaken turns in or not.

Myrddin

amacachi wrote: »

TBH Hamilton has always been rash. As myself and LIGHTNING have been saying for the last few GPs since he got into F1 he's just been launching down the inside of people knowing they wouldn't turn it. I almost think that so an extent maybe most of the frontrunners over the last decade or so got into a habit of of not needing to worry about getting overtaken unless they completely screwed up and kind of lost the will/inclination to turn into a corner with someone inside them. Hamilton should've learned last year from Monza and Singapore (the latter not completely his fault) that maybe people wouldn't move over for him but he doesn't seem to have taken that possibility on board yet. I'm actually struggling to think of many times when Hamilton had to set up a pass or a kinda "skilful" pass that wasn't just getting in a draft and jumping out.

Also the standard of driving in GP2 and below is so hit and miss it's unbelievable. Loads of sending it down the inside with tyre smoke everywhere and a 50/50 as to whether or not the one getting overtaken turns in or not.

I don't see how he's been given any less room than he was in his rookie year(s)...his mentality is what the difference is for me. There's no flow to his driving any more, he's clutching at gaps that he previously wouldn't have, clearly frustrated in himself & the team. I'm not making excuses for him, Alonso is able to drive under pressure, Hamilton can't lately.

amacachi

2

EnterNow wrote: »

I don't see how he's been given any less room than he was in his rookie year(s)...his mentality is what the difference is for me. There's no flow to his driving any more, he's clutching at gaps that he previously wouldn't have, clearly frustrated in himself & the team. I'm not making excuses for him, Alonso is able to drive under pressure, Hamilton can't lately.

Think it was one of the Brazilian GPs when just about everyone let him pop down the inside in turn one. Like I said, I can't think of any tactical kind of passes he's made at all. Also he made less passes in the past compared to this season and last. Looking at Monza last year it was just idiotic what he did. Off the top of my head he hadn't lost a spot and yet still put himself into a bad position and paid the price. I'd actually love to know if Massa just didn't see him because he isn't always the hardest racer. Hamilton generally puts in a position where the guy he's overtaking almost should turn into him to teach him for being cheeky. Though I'll admit that the one in Canada that actually put him out was more 50/50 but once again Hamilton seemed to feel entitled to the racing line for as long as possible. The replay shows Button checking his mirror for a good bit. Assuming he could actually see anything he could see Hamilton hadn't gone off the racing line so he decided to stay on it and as soon as he looked ahead Hamilton then pulled out.

Also there's the fact that he's having to do more overtaking lately. :pac:

decisions

2

Another point about Lewis. When he got his fresh tyres on and then set a fastest lap and the team told him to slow down and look after his tyres and he replied 'I cant go any slower' and a couple of laps later his tyres were shot and the team asked for a hurry up he 'cant go any faster' also shows how is judgement is clouded when he is frustrated.

Myrddin

amacachi wrote: »

Like I said, I can't think of any tactical kind of passes he's made at all.

So in your eyes, every overtake Hamilton does is purely the other driver being lax? Can't say I agree with that sentiment, he does more overtaking, so naturally there's more incidents. This season though is obviously different, its just wrecklessness.

amacachi wrote:

Also he made less passes in the past compared to this season and last.

To me that reflects his frame of mind, I would imagine he's getting frustrated seeing championships slipping away since 2008. The McLaren has not developed at the rate McL & Ferrari have either lately, with Ferrari now about level with McL. Pure frustration creeping in.

amacachi wrote:

Looking at Monza last year it was just idiotic what he did. Off the top of my head he hadn't lost a spot and yet still put himself into a bad position and paid the price.

You could descibe any F1 driver in that sentence in varying tracks though...

amacachi wrote:

Hamilton generally puts in a position where the guy he's overtaking almost should turn into him to teach him for being cheeky.

Didn't Martin Brundle tell Jeremy Clarkson that when racing Senna, it was Senna who put the other driver with the decision of crashing or not? I'm not saying Hamilton is anything like Senna, but its funny how different era's look at the same technique differently.

amacachi wrote:

Though I'll admit that the one in Canada that actually put him out was more 50/50 but once again Hamilton seemed to feel entitled to the racing line for as long as possible.

I don't see it that way with Canada, I do with for the Monaco race though. Again, pure desperation to me rather than red carpet.

amacachi wrote:

The replay shows Button checking his mirror for a good bit. Assuming he could actually see anything he could see Hamilton hadn't gone off the racing line so he decided to stay on it and as soon as he looked ahead Hamilton then pulled out.

Pretty big assumption in those conditions.

amacachi wrote:

Also there's the fact that he's having to do more overtaking lately. :pac:

Agreed. But his frame of mind is all wrong. He needs to approach things differently. This year a kid who drives for a drinks company will be a double world champion, Hamilton needs to let this season go & look at his objectives again.

decisions wrote: »

Another point about Lewis. When he got his fresh tyres on and then set a fastest lap and the team told him to slow down and look after his tyres and he replied 'I cant go any slower' and a couple of laps later his tyres were shot and the team asked for a hurry up he 'cant go any faster' also shows how is judgement is clouded when he is frustrated.

Agreed, things are quite clearly not good in the McL camp at the moment. The trouble is there's only one other team Hamilton can look at for success, & that's not going to happen. If it does, expect serious issues.

amacachi

2

EnterNow wrote: »

So in your eyes, every overtake Hamilton does is purely the other driver being lax? Can't say I agree with that sentiment, he does more overtaking, so naturally there's more incidents. This season though is obviously different, its just wrecklessness.

At first lax, then just not realising that they should turn in on him. Now they know it's coming and that they should turn into him.

To me that reflects his frame of mind, I would imagine he's getting frustrated seeing championships slipping away since 2008. The McLaren has not developed at the rate McL & Ferrari have either lately, with Ferrari now about level with McL. Pure frustration creeping in.

Just about pace. The first two years he was never far enough down the grid to need to overtake anyone.

You could descibe any F1 driver in that sentence in varying tracks though...

Yep but we're talking about his amazing overtaking. Seriously, the only difference now is that some people have started turning in on him and he still hasn't learned. Maybe he has now but hadn't by Canada.

Didn't Martin Brundle tell Jeremy Clarkson that when racing Senna, it was Senna who put the other driver with the decision of crashing or not? I'm not saying Hamilton is anything like Senna, but its funny how different era's look at the same technique differently.

We have to get pretty specific here unfortunately. Senna would have been right behind people he wanted to overtake. Comparing now with then in terms of braking distances etc. is apples and oranges.

I don't see it that way with Canada, I do with for the Monaco race though. Again, pure desperation to me rather than red carpet.

How exactly do you view Canada? With Webber Webber just said to himself "I'll give him just enough space" which came back to haunt Webber. The Button incident was unfortunate but it's pretty obvious that Button knew Hamilton had a run on him but Hamilton got greedy with the draft.

Pretty big assumption in those conditions.

True but the timing is perfect for such a situation.

Agreed. But his frame of mind is all wrong. He needs to approach things differently. This year a kid who drives for a drinks company will be a double world champion, Hamilton needs to let this season go & look at his objectives again.

It's down to driving style IMO. On the odd track with certain tyres Button can't get temperature into them and Hamilton dominates but most of the time Hamilton needs the extra pitstop. Hell look at the last race, the difference between them at the end was pretty much exactly the amount of time that Button lost from lack of KERS. Button lost 15 seconds at the start through traffic and Hamilton lost it later because he couldn't look after the tyres.

Agreed, things are quite clearly not good in the McL camp at the moment. The trouble is there's only one other team Hamilton can look at for success, & that's not going to happen. If it does, expect serious issues.

Hard to know what the solution is tbh. Hamilton needs to be number 1. If the regs weren't changing soon I'd say that a couple of years investment in Button would be the best plan but the turbos will completely change that.

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I personally thought Button was the one who was going to have all the trouble. Shows how much I know :pac:

Ah how I remember 18 months ago when everyone but me said Button was stupid for joining the same team as Hamilton because he'd get embarrassed. :pac: