Motorway Tractor-Watch

L1011

Aidan1 wrote: »

You don't 'repeal' a definition in primary legislation, you merely replace it. Therefore a definition from the 1950s cannot 'trump' a more recent one merely by its superior vintage (or greater specificity). The application of the excise rules are subject to the conditions of the Finance Act that are in place at any given time - given that the Act is effectively rolled over year on year, the last use of any definition is the one that counts.

If you check the definitions in the document that Roosterman posted, you will see that the definition of 'Agricultural Tractor' that Revenue use is the same as the one I posted from the 1999 Finance Act. This means that the same definition is used in national law and in the administrative rules; there is no grey area here (unless you can find an even more recent definition that has that specificity re-introduced?).

In reality, all of this should have been resolved years ago - tractors shouldn't be allowed on Motorways, regardless of speed, and they shouldn't be allowed use MGO for the range of non-agricultural activities that many presently do, but both of the above will require legislative change.

The definition in the 1999 Finance Act relates only to the schedule in that act on mineral oil, nothing else... it doesn't change that there is a design speed limit on an agricultural tractor, which is 50km/h from the 1991 Finance Act.

The restriction most certainly still exists. If you can't VRT a tractor as an agricultural tractor you can't use marked diesel in it.


The RSAs knowledge of the laws of this country is fairly poor; and anyway, it needs something they don't need Customs to enforce.

sdanseo

Regardless of the circles that this argument about the validity of the law is going around in, tractors on a motorway - even at 50km/h+ - are a terrible idea. Travelling at 120km/h+ and coming upon one of these things doing the legal minimum speed is still risking an accident.

Cycling on a motorway is just as stupid, but at least they're well in to the left side of the hard shoulder. Tractors take up the whole shoulder, or worse travel in Lane 1 which is totally mental.

Aidan1

definition in the 1999 Finance Act relates only to the schedule in that act on mineral oil, nothing else

Just to clarify then, we are agreed that the Finance Acts do set the conditions on the use of MGO, and do not put a design speed limit on what is or is not an "agricultural tractor", ergo there is no reason, as per the Finance Acts, or the administrative rules around the use of MGO, that it cannot be used in a tractor with a 50km/h box.

Of course, as you have helpfully pointed out, as per Article 75(4) of the Finance Act 1991, they are not subject to VRT either (again, the figure in the 1991 Act is 50km/h, not 40km/h as you suggested previously), so they escape that too.

I'm glad we've cleared that up.

L1011

Aidan1 wrote: »

Of course, as you have helpfully pointed out, as per Article 75(4) of the Finance Act 1991, they are not subject to VRT either (again, the figure in the 1991 Act is 50km/h, not 40km/h as you suggested previously), so they escape that too.
.

...all of which means that a vehicle which is capable of going over 50km/h is not an agricultural tractor. If its been VRTed as a commercial vehicle (Cat C, >50km/h) it cannot be considered as designed primarily or constructed for agricultural purposes one under the MGO rulings - which is why there is no mention of speed limitations here

I originally said 50km/h and then "corrected" myself to the 25mph figure as given in the 1970s exemptions. 50km/h was correct all along. Tractors that do more than this are not allowed use MGO on the roads, as has always been the case.

Aidan1

Nicely nuanced. But to clarify, if a vehicle has been VRT'd as an ag vehicle, despite the fact that it has a 50km/h box (again, 75(4) of 1991 says 'exceeding a speed of 50km/h), but it can reach 50 km/h, it can both use MGO (as we have covered) and use the motorway (the rules for which say 'at least 50km/h'). This would be why 50km/h tractors are VRT'd as 'tractors' in this country, and why they can't presently be stopped from using the motorway while running on MGO. As has already been explained. I'm not sure where 65-80km/h tractors fall - legally they shouldn't qualify, but I suspect they probably creep through on grounds of ignorance.

In a way, you were very close here;

An "agricultural tractor" cannot have a >50km/h gearbox fitted or else it is no longer an agricultural tractor, it is a road tractor. An agricultural tractor by definition has a <50km/h gearbox.

As we have found, the only issue with the above is the 'less than 50km/h' bit. Had you said "less than or equal to", you would have been correct.

L1011

All you've done is show that tractors which are capable of exactly 50km/h and no more can use motorways on MGO.

Despite the fact that I doubt there's been a tractor sold with that exact specification, ever.

Don't you feel you've wasted rather a lot of your (and my) time while proving nothing of note? As a general rule, a tractor that exists in the real world rather than the hypothetical cannot use MGO on a motorway.

Aidan1

As a general rule, a tractor that exists in the real world rather than the hypothetical cannot use MGO on a motorway.

I'm sorry if you feel I've wasted your time. However, I've just explained to you that your blanket assertion (and slapdown of Roosterman) was incorrect, and shown you, through the legislation, that it remains perfectly possible for a 50km/h tractor to drive on Motorways using MGO, something I'm glad to see you now accept.

As to 'real world', well, I've a project for you. Take a walk down the queue of tractors hauling grain into any intake in the country. Have a look for some new looking ones, 30 series Deeres, 700 and 800 series Fendts, T7000 series New Hollands (your looking for tractors with front suspension, fixed rims etc). Then, have a look at the tax disc. You will find that they are all taxed as agricultural tractors, regardless of the gearbox.

Of course, I've only ever had the pleasure of operating 10-11 tractors with 50km/h boxes (all of which were taxed as agricultural tractors) - it is possible that, as a "general rule", these were the exception. But I doubt it.

L1011

Aidan1 wrote: »

You will find that they are all taxed as agricultural tractors, regardless of the gearbox.

Illegally, if they can go over 50km/h.

My "slapdown" of roosterman was due to him aggressively refusing the actual fact of the matter. A real world tractor cannot legally use MGO on a public road. You claiming that people have incorrectly taxed tractors does not make them legal, or make your utterly pedantic digging out of an oversight of 1km/h in two different laws written at different times any more valid to the real world.

Put it simply - a tractor cannot be using MGO on a motorway legally. This has been the case all along and it has never changed.

-Corkie-

MYOB wrote: »

Illegally, if they can go over 50km/h.

My "slapdown" of roosterman was due to him aggressively refusing the actual fact of the matter. A real world tractor cannot legally use MGO on a public road. You claiming that people have incorrectly taxed tractors does not make them legal, or make your utterly pedantic digging out of an oversight of 1km/h in two different laws written at different times any more valid to the real world.

Put it simply - a tractor cannot be using MGO on a motorway legally. This has been the case all along and it has never changed.

A big plus 1 on that post. I have a load of pics from another forum of tractors on Motorways with dangerous loads. Its frightening..:eek:

Amtmann

-Corkie- wrote: »

A big plus 1 on that post. I have a load of pics from another forum of tractors on Motorways with dangerous loads. Its frightening..:eek:

Link please

-Corkie-

Tremelo wrote: »

Link please

http://www.irishrigs.com/t4300-madness-the-epic-tractors-on-the-motorway-thread

You will need to register first Tremelo to view the forum but its quite good if you like trucks and things like that..:)

Carawaystick

sdeire wrote: »

Travelling at 120km/h+ and coming upon one of these things doing the legal minimum speed is still risking an accident.

The legal minimum speed on a motorway is 0
That's why there is still barrier tolling and traffic lights on the motorways here.

You just have to be driving a vehicle capable of going 50kmh

sdanseo

Carawaystick wrote: »

The legal minimum speed on a motorway is 0
That's why there is still barrier tolling and traffic lights on the motorways here.

You just have to be driving a vehicle capable of going 50kmh

Spot on, but you know what I meant :rolleyes:

Aidan1

You claiming that people have incorrectly taxed tractors does not make them legal, or make your utterly pedantic digging out of an oversight of 1km/h in two different laws written at different times any more valid to the real world.

I see where you're coming from, I really do, and I fully understand the legal point you are trying to make. But you are still wrong, in the real world, due precisely to the lacuna in the legislation that I have shown you.

When agricultural tractors are registered, if the question of speed even comes up at all, they are registered as per their nominal maximum speed (40km/h/50km/h etc). So they are VRT'd as ag tractors - in nearly every case (there have been a few few Fastracs in the past running on white and VRT'd as a truck). As far as the law is concerned (or at least as far as it is applied), every 50km/h tractor falls into the category I have described - able to do 50km/h, but no more. And so, once VRT'd as such, there is no limit on it's use of MGO, and no limit on it's ability to use motorways. Which is the point I've been making all along - that 1km/h difference opens the door. If the Motorway regs had said 51km/h, or the VRT rules 49km/h, none of this would apply.

This is neither pedantry or a theoretical construct, it's the reason why the Gardai cannot stop someone with a 50km/h tractor from using the Motorway network, regardless of what fuel they are using. In effect, what has happened here is that the legislative process has fallen behind commercial developments - both in terms of the use of Ag diesel and in terms of road safety. Logically, what needs to happen is that 40km/h+ tractors are allowed use MGO when on agriculture related work, are made subject to more strict regulations on braking, lighting and driver training, and are formally, explicitly, banned from using Motorways.

L1011

What tractors on the market here have a design speed of exactly 50km/h and no more then?

And what % of total tractors would they be?

Seeing as most tractors on motorways are either 30 year old units crawling in the H/S or doing significantly more than 50km/h I suspect the answer for my questions are "very few" and "very very small".

Mc Love

Tractor and trailer spotted on M7 (limerick) near the newport roundabout. Not the first time I have seen one here either - travelling very slow :eek:

Aidan1

Sub 50k tractors don't get away with being on the Motorway - they can be and are stopped fairly regularly (just as well, most tractors of a 1980s vintage will have a max speed of the order of 25-30km/h).

What tractors on the market here have a design speed of exactly 50km/h and no more then?

That's the point - they're sold as '50km/h', no more, no less. In reality, the max speed of tractors, even of the same make and model, can vary by a km/h or two depending on tyre size, pressures, and even the settings on the ECU (100rpm here or there is all it takes), so unless Revenue were to test each one, individually, there's no way of knowing. Most models will max at around the 50km/h mark, but some are significantly faster. But as far as VRT is concerned, they are all 'Agricultural Tractors', possibly because of the variances, out of ignorance, or out of 'thats the way we've always done it'.

By manufacturer, in my limited experience, several New Hollands I've driven max out at exactly 50km/h (but others were actually slower), 7030 series Deeres at 52-54km/h, 700 series Fendts at 55km/h, but all registered as tractors. Again, the law here is completely outdated and mismatched, and it has been a well known issue for several years, but nothing has ever been done about it.

L1011

Revenue cocking up doesn't mean they aren't VRTed incorrectly and hence not legal.

Aidan1

It doesn't mean that they are either - the issue here is that the law is completely out of date and effectively uninforceable as it stands. To be fair, I don't really blame Revenue either (and I'm generally more than happy to) - this is an issue for the Department of Transport and the Department of Finance. The Gardai have been dealing with 50km/h tractors on the Motorways for over a decade, but the law still hasn't been amended to allow them keep tractors off.

glineli

Tractor spotted Sunday evening going northbound on the M18, just past Barefield.

hi5

It was only a matter of time.

Tractor crash on the M9.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0316/breaking56.html

L1011

Aidan1 wrote: »

It doesn't mean that they are either - the issue here is that the law is completely out of date and effectively uninforceable as it stands. To be fair, I don't really blame Revenue either (and I'm generally more than happy to) - this is an issue for the Department of Transport and the Department of Finance. The Gardai have been dealing with 50km/h tractors on the Motorways for over a decade, but the law still hasn't been amended to allow them keep tractors off.

The Gardai don't appear to "deal" with them at all.

The law already allows them to - your desperate attempt to find an edge case doesn't actually include any real world vehicles - but they don't.

johnbk

The whole issue of tractors on motorways will probably be sorted out now, but why does some one have to be killed first?

It is so sad to think that people here have been discussing this issue for years and the people with the authority and the power to do something about this crazy issue do nothing. It makes me so angry.

Anyway even with the 50kph rule the Garda should be stopping all tractors anyway. Even the largest tractor is not powerful enough to maintain 50kph when fully loaded - the slightest incline will half the tractors speed.

Also how many trailers meet braking requirements?

Crazy, crazy, crazy.

dubhthach

hi5 wrote: »

It was only a matter of time.

Tractor crash on the M9.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0316/breaking56.html

Will the tractor driver be prosecuted I wonder.

Bards

dubhthach wrote: »

Will the tractor driver be prosecuted I wonder.

Driving without due care and attention, dangerous driving causing death, driving a vehicle in a place not permitted are some of the laws he could be prosecuted under

Bagenal

I have a point to make in relation to tractors etc on motorways which may be a bit long winded but bear with me please.
If a HGV whose maximum legally allowed speed limit is 80km/h comes up behind a tractor travelling at 50km/h on a motorway, is the HGV allowed pass the tractor?
In my opinion the answer is no because it is an offence for the driver of a HGV to use the outside lane of a motorway and carries 1 penalty point + a fixed fine for the driver, so in theory there could be miles of trucks etc behind said tractor.
Here's the penalty points list to back up the idea http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Licensed%20Drivers/Penalty%20Points%20Chart1.pdf
In my opinion the ban on use of the outside lane of a motorway is stupid in regard to a two lane motorway, I can understand such a ban on the outside lane of a three lane motorway. Any views on the tractor/truck scenario above?

-Corkie-

Bagenal wrote: »

I have a point to make in relation to tractors etc on motorways which may be a bit long winded but bear with me please.
If a HGV whose maximum legally allowed speed limit is 80km/h comes up behind a tractor travelling at 50km/h on a motorway, is the HGV allowed pass the tractor?
In my opinion the answer is no because it is an offence for the driver of a HGV to use the outside lane of a motorway and carries 1 penalty point + a fixed fine for the driver, so in theory there could be miles of trucks etc behind said tractor.
Here's the penalty points list to back up the idea http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Licensed%20Drivers/Penalty%20Points%20Chart1.pdf
In my opinion the ban on use of the outside lane of a motorway is stupid in regard to a two lane motorway, I can understand such a ban on the outside lane of a three lane motorway. Any views on the tractor/truck scenario above?

Most do overtake tractors for obvious reasons. I know a driver whilst travelling on the M8 around Thurles came upon a tractor. The overtaking lane was busy so he was waiting to pass, he seen a break in the cars and passed the tractor only to hear sirens behind him. It was the cops so they pulled him over and booked him for it.

The tractor drove on and when thd truck driver asked the guard why didnt he stop the tractor he went mental...

betistuc

Maybe a complete ban on Agricultural vehicles on motorways as they do in the UK is the best way to get rid of those 50 km/h tractors.

Also I was looking at that penalty points list- can't believe 2 points are the maximum on the spot for driving the wrong way down a motorway!! Surely this should be arrest and outright ban for 3 years minimum at least

fryup

Mc Love wrote: »

Tractor and trailer spotted on M7 (limerick) near the newport roundabout. Not the first time I have seen one here either - travelling very slow :eek:

must have been the same one i saw

philstar

ah will ya leave the poor ol'farmers alone

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsLZ8C8aIRc