Motorway Tractor-Watch

serfboard

I know there's already a thread about bizarre things on Motorways, but I'm wondering if there's many takers for a tractor-on-Motorway-watch? If not, obviously it'll wither and die. The only rule is that the road in question must be a motorway (so e.g. Athlone bypass is not included).

Anyway, to kick it off, my spot was two weeks ago, June 4th on the M18 between Junctions 14 and 12 heading south. Tried to see if there was a number plate on it, but there wasn't (on the back, at any rate - wondering if this is illegal too?). I reckoned by the time I'd have stopped to call the Guards and they'd have investigated the tractor would have long ago turned off.

(PS. If anyone wants to post cyclists on motorways they'd be welcome too, and I'll rename the thread).

jimmynokia

rename the thread

Things on motorway that should not be.:D


here are the rules.

http://www.drivingschoolireland.com/motorway.html

veryangryman

In fairness to the farmers, it doesnt get done so much now that most Motorways are long stretches. Most farmers arent going >20 miles so usually they use the local roads.

Athlone bypass, legal or not, is becoming a death trap day by day with the remaining on it. Being legal doesnt make it right

roosterman71

Was the tractor you seen doing less than 50km/h? If not, its perfectly entitled to be there

Empire o de Sun

It isn't if it's not a registered road vehicle.

veryangryman

roosterman71 wrote: »

Was the tractor you seen doing less than 50km/h? If not, its perfectly entitled to be there

It could go 5km/h and still be legal. I could also sleep in a pothole and itd be legal. It just wouldnt be right and would be downright dangerous.

"The law" and "common sense" are not the same thing.

flazio

Could someone explain why letting tractors on the Athlone bypass is a death waiting to happen? You have an overtaking lane to pass the tractor on, you are only supposed to drive at a speed that allows you to stop safely in an emergency, you should never drive at high speeds and just expect the road ahead to be clear regardless of what class of road you're driving on. You have plenty of vision of an upcoming slow vehicle, and if you don't, you're the one driving too fast.

veryangryman

flazio wrote: »

Could someone explain why letting tractors on the Athlone bypass is a death waiting to happen? You have an overtaking lane to pass the tractor on, you are only supposed to drive at a speed that allows you to stop safely in an emergency, you should never drive at high speeds and just expect the road ahead to be clear regardless of what class of road you're driving on. You have plenty of vision of an upcoming slow vehicle, and if you don't, you're the one driving too fast.

1. Motorway to the east and west side would make for quite a shock to long distance travellers when encountering such a vehicle. In situations where say..

Junctions 8-9 westbound (Garycastle/Blyry Exit) with poor sightlines, driver might encounter...

Tractor doing 50kph
Overtaking lorry doing 80-90kph

2. Tourists who are going long distance and dont know the roads. Say they were driving across Europe. Ever done the M4 from London to Wales? Can rip it up with few if any parts to slow for may be in for quite a shock also.

Im not saying that the tractors on their own cause the accidents. Im saying that they are one ingredient in a "perfect storm" situation. Why cant they go through town? I mean really. How do Tractors get around Naas for instance? Is there really any benefit to a slow vehicle going a longer distance and taking more time for themselves? Its arrogance like this from the farmers that makes me feel like its Karma that the Tescos of this world are sticking it to them

The sooner this is redesignated a motorway (and enforced) the better.

Cookie_Monster

wheeled digger spotted coming off the M11 southbound at Fassaroe yesterday.

something like this
http://catexcavatorss.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Wheeled-Excavator.jpg

can't imagine that he was doing more than about 25-30

D.L.R.

Sure what do you expect when our police force is a bunch of would be farmers themselves? They allow this shyte.

AugustusMinimus

For every tractor I've seen on a motorway, I've seen 5 cyclists.

veryangryman

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

For every tractor I've seen on a motorway, I've seen 5 cyclists.

Really? Ive never seen a cyclist on a Motorway in this country. Not even one. DCs yes, Motorways no.

Zubeneschamali

A dog ran across the M6 in front of me the other day. Jumped over the centre divider into my lane.

Must be a law against it. Penalty points on his dog license. Harumph.

AugustusMinimus

veryangryman wrote: »

Really? Ive never seen a cyclist on a Motorway in this country. Not even one. DCs yes, Motorways no.

At a guess, I've seen a tractor twice on a motorway.

On the other hand, I often drive on the M8 between Mitchelstown and Cork and often see cyclists on it, especially between Watergrasshill and Cork. Wether it's the same cyclists I don't know.

mayo23

veryangryman wrote: »

It could go 5km/h and still be legal. I could also sleep in a pothole and itd be legal. It just wouldnt be right and would be downright dangerous.

"The law" and "common sense" are not the same thing.

Any vehicle capable of a speed of at least 50 km/h may use a motorway, even if its a tractor. However, I'm not sure many people realise that there is a de facto minimum speed limit on the motorways of 50 km/h.

Learner drivers aren't allowed on motorways and recieve no training on how to behave on them once they pass the test, so its no wonder there are a lot of idiots using them.:mad:

veryangryman

mayo23 wrote: »

Any vehicle capable of a speed of at least 50 km/h may use a motorway, even if its a tractor. However, I'm not sure many people realise that there is a de facto minimum speed limit on the motorways of 50 km/h.

Learner drivers aren't allowed on motorways and recieve no training on how to behave on them once they pass the test, so its no wonder there are a lot of idiots using them.:mad:

Agree - but my point you quoted was on the Athlone bypass, which sadly is not a motorway. Im founding a bounty hunters club this week to nuke any tractors on the bypass. PM for membership. :cool:

L1011

mayo23 wrote: »

Any vehicle capable of a speed of at least 50 km/h may use a motorway, even if its a tractor. However, I'm not sure many people realise that there is a de facto minimum speed limit on the motorways of 50 km/h.

A tractor capable of doing 50km/h isn't allowed use agri diesel and they aren't allowed use the h/s no matter what. 99% of tractors on motorways are doing both.

roosterman71

MYOB wrote: »

A tractor capable of doing 50km/h isn't allowed use agri diesel

Where does it say that?

And nothing is allowed to drive on the hard shoulder.

veryangryman

roosterman71 wrote: »

Where does it say that?

From wiki...

Similarly, "untaxed" diesel (sometimes called "off-road diesel") is available in some countries for use primarily in agricultural applications, such as fuel for tractors, recreational and utility vehicles or other noncommercial vehicles that do not use public roads. Additionally, this fuel may have sulphur levels that exceed the limits for road use in some countries (e.g. USA).


Now get off the road ya maniac!

L1011

roosterman71 wrote: »

Where does it say that?

The fuel duty rules. Look them up yourself.

Tractors are only allowed use marked diesel on public roads if they have a <50km/h gearbox fitted.

You can use all the agri diesel you want in a JCB Fastrak assuming its not taken on public roads.

roosterman71

MYOB wrote: »

The fuel duty rules. Look them up yourself.

Tractors are only allowed use marked diesel on public roads if they have a <50km/h gearbox fitted.

You can use all the agri diesel you want in a JCB Fastrak assuming its not taken on public roads.

Bull

Marked Gas Oil (MGO)

This is diesel which has benefited from a reduced rate of Mineral Oil Tax, granted on the basis that it may not be used in motor vehicles. This oil is infused with both a chemical dye (Ireland’s national fiscal marker) and a solvent (a fiscal marker common to all EU Member States called the “Euromarker”) for identification purposes to deter use of the oil in motor vehicles and assist detection of such misuse. The marked oil has a greenish colour and is colloquially known as “green-diesel”.




Principal uses of Marked Gas Oil


MGO may not be used as a propellant for a motor vehicle. The term “motor vehicle” does not include agricultural tractors, road rollers, off-road dumpers, mobile cranes, mobile well-drilling equipment, mobile concrete pumping equipment and vehicles not designed, constructed or modified for use on roads. Therefore these excluded vehicles may legitimately use MGO as fuel including for use as a propellant. With the exception of “road roller” (a term that is self-explanatory) each of the specifically excluded vehicles is defined. (See Appendix 1 for definitions)

Marked Gas Oil may also be legitimately used for heating purposes (domestic & commercial/industrial) and for stationary motors such as air-compressor machines, electricity generators, and other machinery.

See attached document I received from the RSA

L1011

roosterman71 wrote: »

Bull



See attached document I received from the RSA

An "agricultural tractor" cannot have a >50km/h gearbox fitted or else it is no longer an agricultural tractor, it is a road tractor. An agricultural tractor by definition has a <50km/h gearbox.

Don't call bull when you're ill informed.

L1011

Actually seems that the limit for being an "agricultural tractor" from an excise perspective is 40.3km/h (25mph) maximum design speed, going on a 1973 Excise amendment to the 1952 Finance Act.

Either way, a tractor on agri CANNOT be used on a motorway by virtue of this.

david4791

REMEMBER THE JCB "FASTTRACK" IS ALLOWED ON MOTORWAYS AS IT TRAVELS AT 80KPH, NOT A TRACTOR AS WE KNOW IT BOSS

L1011

david4791 wrote: »

REMEMBER THE JCB "FASTTRACK" IS ALLOWED ON MOTORWAYS AS IT TRAVELS AT 80KPH, NOT A TRACTOR AS WE KNOW IT BOSS

...again, only if its running on road diesel.

roosterman71

Not once in here does it say anything about <50km/h not been allowed use MGO

So where is this definition that an agricultural tractor must be fitted with a gearbox of less than 50km/h?

L1011

i already told you what statutory instruments defined it. Read my posts rather than calling bull when you're in the wrong.

Random documents from people who have nothing to do with fuel excise do not constitute 'proof', nor does their omission of info mean your incorrect position becomes correct

Aidan1

Actually MYOB, the Dept of Transport recently admitted that there was nothing to stop a tractor capable of doing 50km/h from using Motorways - there is an amendment to the Road Traffic Acts pending to deal with this lacuna*.

As for your legal basis, the Finance Act of 1973 (not an S.I.) does contain a speed limited definition for 'agricultural tractor', however this definition has been repeatedly superceded by a less specific definition - here's the one from the Finance Act, 1999, for example;

“agricultural tractor” means a mechanically propelled vehicle which is designed or constructed primarily for use for agricultural purposes;
Taking the two together, 50kmh tractors can use the motorway, and can use 'green diesel' on the public road.

And it's 'Fastrac' btw.

Here's a reference from the RSA, posted previously on Boards.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67559445&postcount=51

L1011

I don't see any repeal of that specific section in the Finance Act 1999.

My point is that there is clearly nothing to stop a tractor that can do 50km/h using the motorway - once it is registered, obeying lane disciplne, correctly lit and using road diesel - but that customs & excise rules (not Trasnport or RSA related) forbid the use of marked gas oil in vehicles above a certain design speed. This is a customs issue so its not for the Guards to be dealing with and definitely nothing the RSA care about.

That most tractors I see on motorways have no reg plates, are in the H/S and are badly lit gives three things the Guards can go after without needing customs involved.

Aidan1

I don't see any repeal of that specific section in the Finance Act 1999.

You don't 'repeal' a definition in primary legislation, you merely replace it. Therefore a definition from the 1950s cannot 'trump' a more recent one merely by its superior vintage (or greater specificity). The application of the excise rules are subject to the conditions of the Finance Act that are in place at any given time - given that the Act is effectively rolled over year on year, the last use of any definition is the one that counts.

If you check the definitions in the document that Roosterman posted, you will see that the definition of 'Agricultural Tractor' that Revenue use is the same as the one I posted from the 1999 Finance Act. This means that the same definition is used in national law and in the administrative rules; there is no grey area here (unless you can find an even more recent definition that has that specificity re-introduced?).

In reality, all of this should have been resolved years ago - tractors shouldn't be allowed on Motorways, regardless of speed, and they shouldn't be allowed use MGO for the range of non-agricultural activities that many presently do, but both of the above will require legislative change.

hi5

I once saw a tractor and silage trailer filling up at a filling station,it looked really odd queing up with the micras and Focus's:) I'd presumed he had run out.

L1011

Aidan1 wrote: »

You don't 'repeal' a definition in primary legislation, you merely replace it. Therefore a definition from the 1950s cannot 'trump' a more recent one merely by its superior vintage (or greater specificity). The application of the excise rules are subject to the conditions of the Finance Act that are in place at any given time - given that the Act is effectively rolled over year on year, the last use of any definition is the one that counts.

If you check the definitions in the document that Roosterman posted, you will see that the definition of 'Agricultural Tractor' that Revenue use is the same as the one I posted from the 1999 Finance Act. This means that the same definition is used in national law and in the administrative rules; there is no grey area here (unless you can find an even more recent definition that has that specificity re-introduced?).

In reality, all of this should have been resolved years ago - tractors shouldn't be allowed on Motorways, regardless of speed, and they shouldn't be allowed use MGO for the range of non-agricultural activities that many presently do, but both of the above will require legislative change.

The definition in the 1999 Finance Act relates only to the schedule in that act on mineral oil, nothing else... it doesn't change that there is a design speed limit on an agricultural tractor, which is 50km/h from the 1991 Finance Act.

The restriction most certainly still exists. If you can't VRT a tractor as an agricultural tractor you can't use marked diesel in it.


The RSAs knowledge of the laws of this country is fairly poor; and anyway, it needs something they don't need Customs to enforce.

sdanseo

Regardless of the circles that this argument about the validity of the law is going around in, tractors on a motorway - even at 50km/h+ - are a terrible idea. Travelling at 120km/h+ and coming upon one of these things doing the legal minimum speed is still risking an accident.

Cycling on a motorway is just as stupid, but at least they're well in to the left side of the hard shoulder. Tractors take up the whole shoulder, or worse travel in Lane 1 which is totally mental.

Aidan1

definition in the 1999 Finance Act relates only to the schedule in that act on mineral oil, nothing else

Just to clarify then, we are agreed that the Finance Acts do set the conditions on the use of MGO, and do not put a design speed limit on what is or is not an "agricultural tractor", ergo there is no reason, as per the Finance Acts, or the administrative rules around the use of MGO, that it cannot be used in a tractor with a 50km/h box.

Of course, as you have helpfully pointed out, as per Article 75(4) of the Finance Act 1991, they are not subject to VRT either (again, the figure in the 1991 Act is 50km/h, not 40km/h as you suggested previously), so they escape that too.

I'm glad we've cleared that up.

L1011

Aidan1 wrote: »

Of course, as you have helpfully pointed out, as per Article 75(4) of the Finance Act 1991, they are not subject to VRT either (again, the figure in the 1991 Act is 50km/h, not 40km/h as you suggested previously), so they escape that too.
.

...all of which means that a vehicle which is capable of going over 50km/h is not an agricultural tractor. If its been VRTed as a commercial vehicle (Cat C, >50km/h) it cannot be considered as designed primarily or constructed for agricultural purposes one under the MGO rulings - which is why there is no mention of speed limitations here

I originally said 50km/h and then "corrected" myself to the 25mph figure as given in the 1970s exemptions. 50km/h was correct all along. Tractors that do more than this are not allowed use MGO on the roads, as has always been the case.

Aidan1

Nicely nuanced. But to clarify, if a vehicle has been VRT'd as an ag vehicle, despite the fact that it has a 50km/h box (again, 75(4) of 1991 says 'exceeding a speed of 50km/h), but it can reach 50 km/h, it can both use MGO (as we have covered) and use the motorway (the rules for which say 'at least 50km/h'). This would be why 50km/h tractors are VRT'd as 'tractors' in this country, and why they can't presently be stopped from using the motorway while running on MGO. As has already been explained. I'm not sure where 65-80km/h tractors fall - legally they shouldn't qualify, but I suspect they probably creep through on grounds of ignorance.

In a way, you were very close here;

An "agricultural tractor" cannot have a >50km/h gearbox fitted or else it is no longer an agricultural tractor, it is a road tractor. An agricultural tractor by definition has a <50km/h gearbox.

As we have found, the only issue with the above is the 'less than 50km/h' bit. Had you said "less than or equal to", you would have been correct.

L1011

All you've done is show that tractors which are capable of exactly 50km/h and no more can use motorways on MGO.

Despite the fact that I doubt there's been a tractor sold with that exact specification, ever.

Don't you feel you've wasted rather a lot of your (and my) time while proving nothing of note? As a general rule, a tractor that exists in the real world rather than the hypothetical cannot use MGO on a motorway.

Aidan1

As a general rule, a tractor that exists in the real world rather than the hypothetical cannot use MGO on a motorway.

I'm sorry if you feel I've wasted your time. However, I've just explained to you that your blanket assertion (and slapdown of Roosterman) was incorrect, and shown you, through the legislation, that it remains perfectly possible for a 50km/h tractor to drive on Motorways using MGO, something I'm glad to see you now accept.

As to 'real world', well, I've a project for you. Take a walk down the queue of tractors hauling grain into any intake in the country. Have a look for some new looking ones, 30 series Deeres, 700 and 800 series Fendts, T7000 series New Hollands (your looking for tractors with front suspension, fixed rims etc). Then, have a look at the tax disc. You will find that they are all taxed as agricultural tractors, regardless of the gearbox.

Of course, I've only ever had the pleasure of operating 10-11 tractors with 50km/h boxes (all of which were taxed as agricultural tractors) - it is possible that, as a "general rule", these were the exception. But I doubt it.

L1011

Aidan1 wrote: »

You will find that they are all taxed as agricultural tractors, regardless of the gearbox.

Illegally, if they can go over 50km/h.

My "slapdown" of roosterman was due to him aggressively refusing the actual fact of the matter. A real world tractor cannot legally use MGO on a public road. You claiming that people have incorrectly taxed tractors does not make them legal, or make your utterly pedantic digging out of an oversight of 1km/h in two different laws written at different times any more valid to the real world.

Put it simply - a tractor cannot be using MGO on a motorway legally. This has been the case all along and it has never changed.

-Corkie-

MYOB wrote: »

Illegally, if they can go over 50km/h.

My "slapdown" of roosterman was due to him aggressively refusing the actual fact of the matter. A real world tractor cannot legally use MGO on a public road. You claiming that people have incorrectly taxed tractors does not make them legal, or make your utterly pedantic digging out of an oversight of 1km/h in two different laws written at different times any more valid to the real world.

Put it simply - a tractor cannot be using MGO on a motorway legally. This has been the case all along and it has never changed.

A big plus 1 on that post. I have a load of pics from another forum of tractors on Motorways with dangerous loads. Its frightening..:eek:

Amtmann

-Corkie- wrote: »

A big plus 1 on that post. I have a load of pics from another forum of tractors on Motorways with dangerous loads. Its frightening..:eek:

Link please

-Corkie-

Tremelo wrote: »

Link please

http://www.irishrigs.com/t4300-madness-the-epic-tractors-on-the-motorway-thread

You will need to register first Tremelo to view the forum but its quite good if you like trucks and things like that..:)

Carawaystick

sdeire wrote: »

Travelling at 120km/h+ and coming upon one of these things doing the legal minimum speed is still risking an accident.

The legal minimum speed on a motorway is 0
That's why there is still barrier tolling and traffic lights on the motorways here.

You just have to be driving a vehicle capable of going 50kmh

sdanseo

Carawaystick wrote: »

The legal minimum speed on a motorway is 0
That's why there is still barrier tolling and traffic lights on the motorways here.

You just have to be driving a vehicle capable of going 50kmh

Spot on, but you know what I meant :rolleyes:

Aidan1

You claiming that people have incorrectly taxed tractors does not make them legal, or make your utterly pedantic digging out of an oversight of 1km/h in two different laws written at different times any more valid to the real world.

I see where you're coming from, I really do, and I fully understand the legal point you are trying to make. But you are still wrong, in the real world, due precisely to the lacuna in the legislation that I have shown you.

When agricultural tractors are registered, if the question of speed even comes up at all, they are registered as per their nominal maximum speed (40km/h/50km/h etc). So they are VRT'd as ag tractors - in nearly every case (there have been a few few Fastracs in the past running on white and VRT'd as a truck). As far as the law is concerned (or at least as far as it is applied), every 50km/h tractor falls into the category I have described - able to do 50km/h, but no more. And so, once VRT'd as such, there is no limit on it's use of MGO, and no limit on it's ability to use motorways. Which is the point I've been making all along - that 1km/h difference opens the door. If the Motorway regs had said 51km/h, or the VRT rules 49km/h, none of this would apply.

This is neither pedantry or a theoretical construct, it's the reason why the Gardai cannot stop someone with a 50km/h tractor from using the Motorway network, regardless of what fuel they are using. In effect, what has happened here is that the legislative process has fallen behind commercial developments - both in terms of the use of Ag diesel and in terms of road safety. Logically, what needs to happen is that 40km/h+ tractors are allowed use MGO when on agriculture related work, are made subject to more strict regulations on braking, lighting and driver training, and are formally, explicitly, banned from using Motorways.

L1011

What tractors on the market here have a design speed of exactly 50km/h and no more then?

And what % of total tractors would they be?

Seeing as most tractors on motorways are either 30 year old units crawling in the H/S or doing significantly more than 50km/h I suspect the answer for my questions are "very few" and "very very small".

Mc Love

Tractor and trailer spotted on M7 (limerick) near the newport roundabout. Not the first time I have seen one here either - travelling very slow :eek:

Aidan1

Sub 50k tractors don't get away with being on the Motorway - they can be and are stopped fairly regularly (just as well, most tractors of a 1980s vintage will have a max speed of the order of 25-30km/h).

What tractors on the market here have a design speed of exactly 50km/h and no more then?

That's the point - they're sold as '50km/h', no more, no less. In reality, the max speed of tractors, even of the same make and model, can vary by a km/h or two depending on tyre size, pressures, and even the settings on the ECU (100rpm here or there is all it takes), so unless Revenue were to test each one, individually, there's no way of knowing. Most models will max at around the 50km/h mark, but some are significantly faster. But as far as VRT is concerned, they are all 'Agricultural Tractors', possibly because of the variances, out of ignorance, or out of 'thats the way we've always done it'.

By manufacturer, in my limited experience, several New Hollands I've driven max out at exactly 50km/h (but others were actually slower), 7030 series Deeres at 52-54km/h, 700 series Fendts at 55km/h, but all registered as tractors. Again, the law here is completely outdated and mismatched, and it has been a well known issue for several years, but nothing has ever been done about it.

L1011

Revenue cocking up doesn't mean they aren't VRTed incorrectly and hence not legal.

Aidan1

It doesn't mean that they are either - the issue here is that the law is completely out of date and effectively uninforceable as it stands. To be fair, I don't really blame Revenue either (and I'm generally more than happy to) - this is an issue for the Department of Transport and the Department of Finance. The Gardai have been dealing with 50km/h tractors on the Motorways for over a decade, but the law still hasn't been amended to allow them keep tractors off.

glineli

Tractor spotted Sunday evening going northbound on the M18, just past Barefield.