The Runway

camlinhall

Any opinions about what actually happened at Mallow racecourse in 1983?

Blue Punto

Why is there underlining stuff about what happened

As far as i know a G2B made an emergency landing and used the racecourse as the runway.
At the time it was cheaper to build a runway on the course so the aircraft coulsd take off again.
Dont forget it wasnt that old when it happened


Enlighten me

camlinhall

But what happened? The press reported he ran too low on fuel to make Cork, having spent all the fuel he needed to get to Cork in circling Shannon for a break in the weather. That's an aviation no-no. But then he struts his stuff around Mallow for a few glorious weeks codding everyone and forgetting to mention Lawlor in Shannon ATC who saved his skin. Even the National papers fell for it. Now that the event is back in the news, can anyone explain how we were all made to look like jackasses?

CaptainSkidmark

The story as it says itself on the poster is "kind of based on a true story"

Basically he couldnt land anywhere so he put down in Mallow and lived the life for a few weeks and courted many a woman, they built the runway and off he went. he did a low pass after and got in big trouble for it.

The jet itself a gulfstream later crashed a few years after taking off from san fran or LA into a pylon in thick fog.

He want flying it but as as far as i know he himself has passed on.


The runway was used by people learning to drive for years after until they refurbished the racecourse as at the time it was just a stand with a metal roof and the runway is long gone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1AVTVegjkI


PLUS, its a kids movie/comedy. I dont think anyone was set out to look like a jackass

camlinhall

"The Runway" is a comedy that has very little to do with the actual event, you're right. I'm only referring to it here because it has revived the memory of what actually happened, and I'm surprised at how few people know that the pilot nearly caused a disaster through flaunting the most fundamental of aviation rules, lauded as a hero in the press, and denied the person who saved the day (in Shannon ATC, now retired) the credit for averting a major crash.

Growler!!!

camlinhall wrote: »

Any opinions about what actually happened at Mallow racecourse in 1983?

Looking at your profile - I see you've found the aviation forum:). I'd be very interested in your opinions as to what happened.

You were flying a DC8 into Snn on the same day. Was the Wx as bad as reported in the press? Did the fog clear soon after the mexican diverted? Cant find any details about how long he held over Snn or how many approaches he made. Can you shed any light?

Pic below for any interested parties:

CaptainSkidmark

camlinhall wrote: »

"The Runway" is a comedy that has very little to do with the actual event, you're right. I'm only referring to it here because it has revived the memory of what actually happened, and I'm surprised at how few people know that the pilot nearly caused a disaster through flaunting the most fundamental of aviation rules, lauded as a hero in the press, and denied the person who saved the day (in Shannon ATC, now retired) the credit for averting a major crash.

Sounds like someone has a chip on their shoulder

Blue Punto

Should have added in my earlier post
The pilot Captain Ocana died in 2009 after many more years of flying and as mentioned the aircraft in question (XA-FOU)was destroyed on 22/11/04 as N85VT at Houston Hobby Airport

squonk

What was the disaster that was averted? Could someone fill this bit in please? I'm too young to remember it but I did see it on Reeling In The Years

Lapin

Was the runway at Mallow racecourse ever used again ?

CaptainSkidmark

Lapin wrote: »

Was the runway at Mallow racecourse ever used again ?

They had to dig it up again pretty quick as MOL was eyeing it up


No it was never used again for aircraft. there might be a small bit of it left ill have to walk over next week and have a look.

Kumsheen

You also have to remember this was nearly 30 years ago and regulation was a lot looser back then. A lot of things went on that would not be allowed these days.

CaptainSkidmark

Kumsheen wrote: »

You also have to remember this was nearly 30 years ago and regulation was a lot looser back then. A lot of things went on that would not be allowed these days.

Landing in racecourse for one lol

Lapin

CaptainSkidmark wrote: »

They had to dig it up again pretty quick as MOL was eyeing it up


No it was never used again for aircraft. there might be a small bit of it left ill have to walk over next week and have a look.

Unfortunatly the images on Google Earth and Bing Maps are too blurred to make anything out.

However on the Ordanance Survey Mapviewer it would appear that the eastern end is still there as part of the racecourse car park. Although this image is at least 6 years old now.

CaptainSkidmark

Honestly dont think thats the runway. the ground is a lot higher than what used be at the old racecourse

camlinhall

Growler!!! wrote: »

Looking at your profile - I see you've found the aviation forum:). I'd be very interested in your opinions as to what happened.

You were flying a DC8 into Snn on the same day. Was the Wx as bad as reported in the press? Did the fog clear soon after the mexican diverted? Cant find any details about how long he held over Snn or how many approaches he made. Can you shed any light?

Pic below for any interested parties:

It was fog alright, it had cleared later on when we got there. He spent over half an hour waiting for the vis to pick up, that stuck in our minds at the time, we'd all been in that situation at one time or another, and getting caught out for fuel is just something you can hardly bear to think about. I remember what it's like, though. He hadn't been here before, he didn't know Cork either, and he was probably dead tired (he left the US the night before). You just want to get it down. Right there where you are. We'll never know if there was another factor like misbehaving fuel gauges, but when you're low you never rely on them by themselves anyway.

camlinhall

squonk wrote: »

What was the disaster that was averted? Could someone fill this bit in please? I'm too young to remember it but I did see it on Reeling In The Years

When the captain of the Gulfstream jet decided to fly to Cork airport the fuel was dangerously low. He was later blamed by the company he worked for: they said he should have diverted to Cork much sooner rather than hang around overhead Shannon airport in hopes of better landing weather. The captain hadn't much control anymore of where he was coming down, and God help anyone who happened to be there! But Shannon air traffic control saved the day, and guided him to Mallow racecourse. At that time the technology available to air traffic controllers was relatively primitive, and guiding the Gulfstream to Mallow racecourse was regarded as fine work by any pilots I spoke to at the time. The actual landing itself was straightforward enough, as long as the ground wasn't too soft, no great problem, the aircraft was certainly relatively light, approach speed relatively low.

Blue Punto

[HTML]The actual landing itself was straightforward enough[/HTML]

I find that statement insulting to any pilot who has had to put an aircraft down in an area that he was not expecting

When flying you dont know the conditions of an area that your gonna use in an emergency and this increases the tension and pressure on a flight crew

It was bloody good visual flying

camlinhall

Blue Punto wrote: »

[HTML]The actual landing itself was straightforward enough[/HTML]

I find that statement insulting to any pilot who has had to put an aircraft down in an area that he was not expecting

When flying you dont know the conditions of an area that your gonna use in an emergency and this increases the tension and pressure on a flight crew

It was bloody good visual flying

I agree. But nowhere near in comparison to the achievement of the ATC controller, who got no recognition. That's the point.

CaptainSkidmark

camlinhall wrote: »

I agree. But nowhere near in comparison to the achievement of the ATC controller, who got no recognition. That's the point.

Are you the ATC chap? every post your trying to put the pilot down and promote the ATC controller.

camlinhall

CaptainSkidmark wrote: »

Are you the ATC chap? every post your trying to put the pilot down and promote the ATC controller.

He wasn't even an acquaintance of mine. I just think something went badly wrong and people have a right to know what it was. Remember, I was there that day, working at the coalface of that industry, and I felt let down as did the other professionals, that the man to whom a lot is owed gets no recognition.

CaptainSkidmark

camlinhall wrote: »

He wasn't even an acquaintance of mine. I just think something went badly wrong and people have a right to know what it was. Remember, I was there that day, working at the coalface of that industry, and I felt let down as did the other professionals, that the man to whom a lot is owed gets no recognition.

Let it all out.

camlinhall

Thanks. I DO feel better now...

sh1tstirrer

CaptainSkidmark wrote: »

Honestly dont think thats the runway. the ground is a lot higher than what used be at the old racecourse

The start of the runway is still there and used as a car park, the rest is gone as the new building is built over it.

mickdw

I guess this is what remained when building works were done. Is it still like that?

sh1tstirrer

mickdw wrote: »

I guess this is what remained when building works were done. Is it still like that?

Yes it still like that.

easygoing39

I remember going to Mallow racecourse in the mid '90's to see motorcycle dragracing.They used the runway to form a 1/8 mile dragstrip.

pclancy

Never heard of this story before. In the photo is it the grass strip to the right of the aircraft that it landed on?

Delancey

camlinhall wrote: »

I agree. But nowhere near in comparison to the achievement of the ATC controller, who got no recognition. That's the point.

This is simply not the case . I recall the incident and I remember the Controller got plenty of publicity / recognition for his efforts in the Irish media - I can't comment on the international media.

camlinhall

Delancey wrote: »

This is simply not the case . I recall the incident and I remember the Controller got plenty of publicity / recognition for his efforts in the Irish media - I can't comment on the international media.

I disagree. The press lauded and praised the pilot, I've read the articles, and quite clearly they didn't understand the incident at all, and couldn't have appreciated what Lawlor managed to do that day in Cork. But what articles did you see? For God's sake prove me wrong, I'd prefer the happy clappy story.

CaptainSkidmark

pclancy wrote: »

Never heard of this story before. In the photo is it the grass strip to the right of the aircraft that it landed on?

no no, thats where the horses run, doubt that would be very smooth

Stinicker

I wonder who paid for the Runway? Another question that springs to mind was would the wings not have been removeable and load it onto a huge lorry and transport it to either Farranfore or Cork to allow it to depart. Also the road by there is quite wide now, could they not have closed the road and used it as a runway? I wonder what would happen nowadays if a learjet or 737 had to make an emergency landing down there?

One thing I feel we should have done whilst building our Motorway networks was to build stretches of Motorway as runways like they did in Germany, throughout Germany many stretches of the Autobahn have Highway landing strips integrated into them. The autobahn runs in a straight line and is strengthened to runway specifications and rather than the concrete barrier like we have they have easily removable metal barriers.

The aim in constructing these were to allow for backup military airbases in the event of a Soviet invasion which would target airforce bases, and they could use the Autobahn landing strips as backup for a counter attack.

*Kol*

Stinicker wrote: »

I wonder who paid for the Runway? Another question that springs to mind was would the wings not have been removeable and load it onto a huge lorry and transport it to either Farranfore or Cork to allow it to depart. Also the road by there is quite wide now, could they not have closed the road and used it as a runway? I wonder what would happen nowadays if a learjet or 737 had to make an emergency landing down there?

It would be cheaper and quicker to put down the runway. It only took them a few weeks to do it. Those wings are not made to be taken off. If you did manage to get them off it would be next to impossible to get them back on.

Delancey

camlinhall wrote: »

I disagree. The press lauded and praised the pilot, I've read the articles, and quite clearly they didn't understand the incident at all, and couldn't have appreciated what Lawlor managed to do that day in Cork. But what articles did you see? For God's sake prove me wrong, I'd prefer the happy clappy story.

Alas I cannot recall the newspapers but I do remember the controllers photo in at least one article plus a radio interview on RTE with him.
My memory was that the media very much presented this as a ' team effort ' of a good pilot and a good controller who used his local knowledge to great effect.

Interestingly enough the runway was built following a tender process by none other than the Irish Sugar Company which had a big operation at the time in Mallow. The aircraft insurers coughed up the cost AFAIK.

camlinhall

That's what I remember as well.
It was an eyeopener to me how the media could effectively pronounce on an event that only professional pilots could properly comment on, and have everyone to this day going around with the wrong idea. Lawlor couldn't have made a professional comment on the fuel aspect, outside his remit, but he would have known what it meant to fly in circles on low fuel.
No-one on this thread has addressed that aspect, and all the rest is speculation.
Any commercial pilots that were around at the time?

Blue Punto

camlinhall

What is it exactly you are looking for

Your own words are "for Gods sake prove me wrong"

Delancey has stated that he remembers the contriller getting priase in the the press and Itoo remember him being interviewedomn RTE Radio 1(cause my dad called me into the kitchen to listen to it),but this does not seem to be good enough for you.

Now your looking for commercial pilots that may have been around at that time to comment on the topic

Do fire/EMS crews get lots of tv coverage for the great work they do everyday of the year ....NO


I dont know what your looking for but get over it as you have managed to make this topic boring at this stage

You even have this posted elsewhere on Boards
"Hardly anyone knows the real story anyway. The captain was no hero, and pretended Shannon ATC didn't save his skin for him. "

SO TELL THE REAL STORY YOU KNOW

If not
MOVE ON
MOVE ON

camlinhall

Sorry Blue, you missed it.
This isn't going away, even if I do. I wouldn't be here at all if "The Runway" hadn't been made. But now the whole country has started talking about what happened. For as long as it's doing the rounds, I'm telling it straight: planes don't keep coming down any old place, and everyone was conned.

Blue Punto

camlinhall wrote: »

Sorry Blue, you missed it.
This isn't going away, even if I do. I wouldn't be here at all if "The Runway" hadn't been made. But now the whole country has started talking about what happened. For as long as it's doing the rounds, I'm telling it straight: planes don't keep coming down any old place, and everyone was conned.

I didnt miss anything

In fact I travelled to Mallow to see XA-FOU
Why bother asking for peoples opinions and then just dismissing them


As said already it was a great Team effort that got the aircraft down,what more do you want
I think a letter from Glen Miller/Buddy Holly is outta the question

As I said MOVE ON


YAWN

camlinhall

How do you know what kind of an effort it was? Are you a professional working in the industry, or does that matter?

Blue Punto

camlinhall wrote: »

How do you know what kind of an effort it was? Are you a professional working in the industry, or does that matter?

Well if I am you you must know more anyway.:rolleyes:

camlinhall

Fair enough. So having worked in the industry as you say, what were the professionals you worked with saying?

Blue Punto

this happened before my time in the industry
(which I have since left)
And as with any incident a good outcome is the most important factor and its what anyone in the aviation industry would want

This incident had one thanks to the ATC and pilot skill

Again I dont know what your looking for as you wont say but you do say
YOU KNOW THE REAL STORY

So give it and get it off your chest

Im just going to avoid this topic from now as its just repeditive and boring

Best of luck

camlinhall

OK Blue, thanks
Actually I've previously explained the point of starting this thread, but obviously explained so badly that I'm the only one who gets it. Fair enough so.
But one more thing: forums like this might be plagued with bores like me, but it's worth it if it means everything is now out in the open.
Merry Christmas one and all.

*Kol*

camlinhall wrote: »

Sorry Blue, you missed it.
This isn't going away, even if I do. I wouldn't be here at all if "The Runway" hadn't been made. But now the whole country has started talking about what happened. For as long as it's doing the rounds, I'm telling it straight: planes don't keep coming down any old place, and everyone was conned.

I have missed something. What was the con?

It's a nice story. Plane lands on racecourse. Runway built. Plane takes off again. Nobody died in the process. Maybe the ATC guy deserved more credit for what he did. After all these years does it really matter?

camlinhall

I think it does: we do better being informed of the way in which aircraft are operated safely, and when they're not. This is more relevant than ever, there's far more of them overhead than in 1983. But take it on trust that all is well, and maybe it is....
Anyway, it's obvious that the contributors to this thread consider the finer points of fuel management a bit pedantic.
I hate pedants, but I love to go on and on.

cyrusdvirus

is it just me or does anyone else think that camlinhall knows this 'Lawlor' chap (i assume he was the ATC on duty on the day)

And I also think that your posts are not making a whole pile of sense.

Blue has invited you to say your say from your point of view and you haven't.

camlinhall

I tried and failed miserably.

cyrusdvirus

camlinhall wrote: »

I tried and failed miserably.

Where did you try?

I only see a series of posts by you saying that the pilot was an idiot, and that the ATC guy deserves tons of credit, but the media at the time got it arseways and gave the pilot credit while totally overlooking the ATC guy.

Yet Delancey and Blue both remember the incident in question and that the ATC guy DID in fact get credit for the part he played.

have i missed something? Should we take this thread to the C.T. forum? Was it all an IRA plot to get Shergar out of the country?

Are you just posting for the sake of posting? Am i?

camlinhall

Look here, Gatecrash. There's only room for one bore on this thread, and that's me.
But seeing as you ask, quite reasonably:
My point is just this...
If you're down to your diversion fuel but you're not diverting to the airport with good weather, which is what happened, you're not doing a great job, and if it was me having that bad day (imagine), I'd have lost my license. (I've heard, but can't verify that Ocana, the pilot, suffered that fate ultimately).
But apparently I'm making no sense here. Sorry about that.

cyrusdvirus

camlinhall wrote: »

Look here, Gatecrash. There's only room for one bore on this thread, and that's me.
But seeing as you ask, quite reasonably:
My point is just this...
If you're down to your diversion fuel but you're not diverting to the airport with good weather, which is what happened, you're not doing a great job, and if it was me having that bad day (imagine), I'd have lost my license. (I've heard, but can't verify that Ocana, the pilot, suffered that fate ultimately).
But apparently I'm making no sense here. Sorry about that.

But he was in the process of diverting. He wasn't still circling Shannon when he had to land in Mallow, he was already on his way to Cork.

Ok, he had to perform an emergency landing due to fuel starvation, and that shows that he spent too long in the Shannon hold.

You seem to have a genuine gripe about this, in the 3rd post you wrote

camlinhall wrote:

But what happened? The press reported he ran too low on fuel to make Cork, having spent all the fuel he needed to get to Cork in circling Shannon for a break in the weather. That's an aviation no-no. But then he struts his stuff around Mallow for a few glorious weeks codding everyone and forgetting to mention Lawlor in Shannon ATC who saved his skin. Even the National papers fell for it. Now that the event is back in the news, can anyone explain how we were all made to look like jackasses?

Are you annoyed about the publicity that this is getting because you were one of people 'made look like jackasses'?

Was this pilot your hero, and he's the one who made you get interested in aviation? And you subsequently found out that he wasn't the greatest pilot who ever strapped a plane to his back (an honour reserved for Chuck Yeager imho) and that's why you are so full of annoyance about this?

I honestly don't understand your reasons for posting here??

Yeah, there is a film out, and from what i can gather there appears to be a good deal of 'tweeeee' about it, but the film is only loosely based on the actual events.

camlinhall

OK so!