"To fight is to live"

southsiderosie

While visiting a friend in Madrid, we came across posters advertising a corrida - a bullfighting festival. The tickets were actually pretty cheap, and we discussed going. On the one hand, I thought it would be interesting to see something that is so deeply rooted in Spanish history, and to see all of the pageantry. On the other hand, I feel like there is something deeply grotesque about the whole thing. Apparently many Spaniards feel the same way; signs in the Metro which read "Torear es vivir" ("To bullfight is to live") have been scribbled over with "Torear es matar" (To bullfight is to kill").

Have you ever been to a bullfight? If so, how did you feel about it afterwards?

If not, would you ever go to one if given the chance? Why or why not?

In the end, I didn't go; my friend had to work, and I was kind of uncomfortable with the whole thing.

Elmidena

Couldn't go to one myself, don't agree with it at all. I'm a big softie at heart

Red Hand

Never been to a bullfight. I wouldn't feel comfortable going to one cause it's using an animal's pain for people's enjoyment...

But then again, I eat meat from animals which have been brought up in sh*te conditions, so I'm a hypocrite.

bc dub

they treat the bulls like kings pre fight. if the bullfighter is seen to be causing pain to the bull, he's boo'd by the crowd and is technically a bad bullfighter.

it will be banned eventually though.

Chuck Stone

Bull fighting is anything but a bull fight.

It's animal torture.

krudler

I root for the bull

The King of Moo

Bullfighting is cruel, prolonged animal torture.
I wouldn't mind bullfighting so much if the matadors/toreadors were unarmed, but I don't think they'd go for that.
People argue that it's justified as the bulls are so well treated before they're killed. But wouldn't it be even better to treat them like kings and then not kill them?
It's like arguing that you can beat your wife because you treat her so well 90% of the time.

stevejr

To Fight is to live???

You've got it wrong mate. Stop what you're doing, look around you at your friends and neighbours. Everyone's struggling....


Eire 2011. To live is to fight!

Riamfada

The King of Moo wrote: »

It's like arguing that you can beat your wife because you treat her so well 90% of the time.

95%

Johro

'Many prominent former bullfighters report that the bull is intentionally debilitated with tranquilizers and laxatives, beatings to the
kidneys, petroleum jelly rubbed into their eyes to blur vision, heavy weights hung around their neck for weeks before the fight, and
confinement in darkness for hours before being released into the bright arena.
A well-known bullfight veterinarian, Dr. Manuel Sanz, reports that in 1987 more than 90 percent of bulls killed in fights had their
horns "shaved" before the fight. Horn shaving involves sawing off several inches of the horns so the bull misses his thrusts at the
altered angle.
The matador, two picadors on horses, and three men on foot stab the bull repeatedly when he enters the ring. After the bull has been
completely weakened by fear, blood loss, and exhaustion, the matador attemp ts to make a clean kill with a sword to the heart.
Unfortunately for the suffering bull, the matador rarely succeeds and must make several thrusts, often missing the bull's heart and
piercing his lungs instead. Often a dagger must be used to cut the spinal cord and spare the audience the sight of a defenseless animal
in the throes of death. The bull may still be fully conscious but paralyzed when his ears and tail are cut off as the final show of
"victory.'' '
(World Animal Foundation)

seanybiker

I love when the bull catches the little fookers in their gay suits and bates them around a bit

Red Hand

stevejr wrote: »

To Fight is to live???

You've got it wrong mate. Stop what you're doing, look around you at your friends and neighbours. Everyone's struggling....


Eire 2011. To live is to fight!

Do you write songs for The Script?:pac:

Wolfe Tone

Never been, I would go though.

southsiderosie

seanybiker wrote: »

I love when the bull catches the little fookers in their gay suits and bates them around a bit

Aw...I like the suits and the horses and the ladies all dressed up. Plus some matadors are smokin' hot. I don't particularly like the idea of the stabbing part though.

The King of Moo

southsiderosie wrote: »

Aw...I like the suits and the horses and the ladies all dressed up. Plus some matadors are smokin' hot. I don't particularly like the idea of the stabbing part though.

You can have the suits and dressing up and horses without the intentional killing of animals:

horse racing.

The King of Moo

Riamfada wrote: »

95%

Too generous.
Whipped! *fwatish!*

Red Hand

Why do they use small breeds of bulls? Admittedly, the head is big and the horns are long, but they just make the bull look disproportionate.

http://www.weirdthings.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/look-at-the-bull-his-horn-is-up-the-spanish-guys-ass-serves-him-right.jpg

Compare the above spanish bull to a typical bull you'd see in Ireland:

http://thewordin365.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/bull_oostvaardersplassen_2.jpg

It looks like they pick bulls with large heads and wide horns so that that part of the bull is the widest part that the matador will encounter. So once they don't clash with the head/horns, they'll be ok. Whereas a typical large beef breed would knock over a matador as the bull's body is wider than the head/horns.

ball

Johro wrote: »

'Many prominent former bullfighters report that the bull is intentionally debilitated with tranquilizers and laxatives, beatings to the
kidneys, petroleum jelly rubbed into their eyes to blur vision, heavy weights hung around their neck for weeks before the fight, and
confinement in darkness for hours before being released into the bright arena.
A well-known bullfight veterinarian, Dr. Manuel Sanz, reports that in 1987 more than 90 percent of bulls killed in fights had their
horns "shaved" before the fight. Horn shaving involves sawing off several inches of the horns so the bull misses his thrusts at the
altered angle.

If this is true, it's definitely unfair, and should be stopped.

I would go to a bullfight though, and I'd enjoy it too.
Sure, a bull gets killed. But at least he gets a fight instead of being sent straight to the slaughterhouse.

Da Shins Kelly

No, I'd never go. I know the festival you are talking about though, I was living in Madrid for a while too. I could never bring myself to go to one. I was actually living very near a farm that raises bulls for the sole purpose of ending up in the arena, and I used to go for walks up around it sometimes. They have a great quality of life (on this farm anyway) up until the fight, and it is a form of livlihood for some people in Spain. There's also the cultural and historical significance of it, but it doesn't stop me from feeling as though there's something inherently wrong about it, especially today. I suppose most cultures have something barbaric about them though..You can also compare the Spanish brand of bull fighting to the Portugese brand - in Spain the bull is eventually killed, in Portugal it isn't. In Portugal it's all about the spectacle and the torero's skill in staying out of harm's way, but the animal is not slaughtered in the arena. I don't know why this can't be introduced in Spain too.

A lot of Spanish people seem to feel as though it's quite cruel too though, and it has already been banned in Catalonia, so I feel as though its day will be done soon anyway.

southsiderosie

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Why do they use small breeds of bulls? Admittedly, the head is big and the horns are long, but they just make the bull look disproportionate.

http://www.weirdthings.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/look-at-the-bull-his-horn-is-up-the-spanish-guys-ass-serves-him-right.jpg

What exactly is that from? I think bulls for big events look something more like this.

Misty Chaos

I went to one when I was a school tour to Spain, it was interesting to say the least. Cruel? Perhaps. Different and entertaining? Yeah it was, the arena we were at also had a resturant on side so it's not like the bull went to waste, too bad I couldn't stay, would definately eaten some.

Would I go again, yeah I would. It's a different culture to our own and I'm open to exploring it. As for the whole animal cruelty aspect, there are people who have being or have being treated worse than any bull ever was so sort out the whole human rights issue first before you come talking to me about animal rights. It's not that I don't care about animals I just feel there is no point in animals ending up having more rights than people do in some parts of the world!

ball

southsiderosie wrote: »

What exactly is that from? I think bulls for big events look something more like this.

That's the same bull from a different angle

Senna

Wouldn't go and see a bull fight, should and hopefully will be banned. But I think they should bring a Pamplona style bull run (without the cruelty at the end) to Ireland. Its like ethic moron cleansing, if your stupid enough to be there, it can only benefit mankind if you get killed.

Red Hand

southsiderosie wrote: »

What exactly is that from? I think bulls for big events look something more like this.

OK, my pic was probably of a bullock (or it looks small cause your man is impaled above him!), but even in the above pic there, the horns are wider than the shoulders.

I'd love to see a matador take on a big beef bull.

southsiderosie

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

OK, my pic was probably of a bullock (or it looks small cause your man is impaled above him!), but even in the above pic there, the horns are wider than the shoulders.

I'd love to see a matador take on a big beef bull.

I know nothing about livestock, but would fighting bulls be bred to be quicker versus a big (relatively slow?) animal for meat?

The King of Moo

Misty Chaos wrote: »

I went to one when I was a school tour to Spain, it was interesting to say the least. Cruel? Perhaps. Different and entertaining? Yeah it was, the arena we were at also had a resturant on side so it's not like the bull went to waste, too bad I couldn't stay, would definately eaten some.

Would I go again, yeah I would. It's a different culture to our own and I'm open to exploring it. As for the whole animal cruelty aspect, there are people who have being or have being treated worse than any bull ever was so sort out the whole human rights issue first before you come talking to me about animal rights. It's not that I don't care about animals I just feel there is no point in animals ending up having more rights than people do in some parts of the world!

I don't get the argument that it's traditional and part of Spanish culture. Lots of places still maintain genital mutilation, racism, sexism or homophobia as traditional parts of their culture, but it doesn't mean that I have to respect those things.

And why should we have to solve all human rights issues before we can move on to animal rights?
Can't we do both simultaneously?
You could certainly make a convincing case that a person's life is more valuable than the lives of other animals, and therefore human rights are more important, but that doesn't mean that animal rights should be completely disregarded.

Da Shins Kelly

ball wrote: »

If this is true, it's definitely unfair, and should be stopped.

I would go to a bullfight though, and I'd enjoy it too.
Sure, a bull gets killed. But at least he gets a fight instead of being sent straight to the slaughterhouse.

You say "he gets a fight" as if he somehow enjoys it or wants it. Man, I've seen some of these fights on television and they are truly horrific. I don't really understand how anyone enjoys them at all. There's just copious amounts of blood everywhere, and the creature is so visibly distressed by everything that's happening, that its actually upsetting. It's a bloodsport in reality, not "art", like a lot of its advocates try to claim.

Misty Chaos wrote: »

Would I go again, yeah I would. It's a different culture to our own and I'm open to exploring it. As for the whole animal cruelty aspect, there are people who have being or have being treated worse than any bull ever was so sort out the whole human rights issue first before you come talking to me about animal rights. It's not that I don't care about animals I just feel there is no point in animals ending up having more rights than people do in some parts of the world!

It's a cultural thing that the majority of Spaniards have very little interest in. It's not this big, wonderful celebration of Spanish culture that people seem to think it is. Spanish people I socialised with either couldn't care less about it, or completely disagreed with it.
And also, Spain is in the developed world, it's not as though human rights abuses are rife over there. Yes, other parts of the world need to get their sh*t together with regards to the value they place on human life before getting into animal rights, but Spain isn't one of those places, so maybe they should focus some attention on how they treat animals.

Red Hand

southsiderosie wrote: »

I know nothing about livestock, but would fighting bulls be bred to be quicker versus a big (relatively slow?) animal for meat?

I dunno about that, but I was charged by a charlais once and were it not for someone managing to distract him midway, I'd have been a goner.

southsiderosie

The King of Moo wrote: »

I don't get the argument that it's traditional and part of Spanish culture. Lots of places still maintain genital mutilation, racism, sexism or homophobia as traditional parts of their culture, but it doesn't mean that I have to respect those things.

True, but a lot of people do not put human rights issues on the same scale as animal rights issues. I don't think bullfighting is comparable to FGM, but rather other blood sports (like bear baiting, for example). For some reason though, I find cockfighting and in particular dogfighting far more distasteful (in theory) than bullfighting.

The King of Moo

southsiderosie wrote: »

True, but a lot of people do not put human rights issues on the same scale as animal rights issues. I don't think bullfighting is comparable to FGM, but rather other blood sports (like bear baiting, for example). For some reason though, I find cockfighting and in particular dogfighting far more distasteful (in theory) than bullfighting.

People do tend to put either human rights above animal rights and vice versa (usually the former) but I simply hate any cruelty to any creature, human or otherwise. If I had to choose between ending all human rights abuses or animal rights abuses I'd probably pick the former, but of course I'd never be in such a situation and I can choose to hate both forms of abuse.

It's interesting you find some bloodsports more distasteful than others, I think we all do that. Maybe you find cockfighting and dogfighting more distasteful because the animals are made to fight each other.
It might also be because we tend to instinctively find certain animals more sympathetic, either because of their appearance or because they're often kept as pets. I think Spain would face trade embargoes from every nation on Earth if they indulged in puppy fighting instead of bull fighting.

Dangerous Man

My Spanish teacher in secondary school was a nun. She said one day that she felt guilty about it - but still enjoyed going to the bullfights. I'd expected better from a nun. Ah well.

ball

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

You say "he gets a fight" as if he somehow enjoys it or wants it. Man, I've seen some of these fights on television and they are truly horrific. I don't really understand how anyone enjoys them at all. There's just copious amounts of blood everywhere, and the creature is so visibly distressed by everything that's happening, that its actually upsetting. It's a bloodsport in reality, not "art", like a lot of its advocates try to claim.

I'm sure he doesn't want to fight. I'm sure cows don't want to go to the slaughterhouse either.
PERSONALLY, I find it entertaining. I can see why people are against it. I'd imagine most who are are against eating meat too?

The King of Moo

ball wrote: »

I'm sure he doesn't want to fight. I'm sure cows don't want to go to the slaughterhouse either.
PERSONALLY, I find it entertaining. I can see why people are against it. I'd imagine most who are are against eating meat too?

You can be ok with eating meat and not ok with bullfighting. I don't like how many animals who're slaughtered are treated, but at least there's a practical benefit for those who eat the meat. There's a reason the animal is killed, and it can be killed quickly and humanely (though I wish such treatment was more widespread).
But with bullfighting, the bull's death is often drawn out and agonising, and it's purely for the entertainment of people who somehow enjoy it. Even if they cooked the dead bull there and then and ate the whole damn thing, there's no reason for its torture.

It's the same reason I don't like hunting for sport: it's a pointless and often cruel killing of an innocent creature which no-one benefits from.

Da Shins Kelly

ball wrote: »

I'm sure he doesn't want to fight. I'm sure cows don't want to go to the slaughterhouse either.
PERSONALLY, I find it entertaining. I can see why people are against it. I'd imagine most who are are against eating meat too?

I'm sure some are. However, there's a big difference between killing an animal for the purpose of food, and killing an animal for the purpose of entertainment. Revelling in the prolonged torture and death of an animal, and broadcasting it in front of thousands of people, both in the arena and on television, is a very different situation to bringing an animal to a slaughterhouse to provide food. And just because one isn't a hardcore vegan/vegetarian doesn't mean that they are immediately excluded from expressing any opinion on the mistreatment of animals. Being a vegetarian doesn't makes someone an automatic authority on the issue of animal cruelty, and I really resent this line of thought too.

minidazzler

I have no sympathy for any man who steps into the ring with a bull and gets gored. At the end of the day if the man lives he fights another day, if the bull lives he will be killed anyway. I honestly do root for the bull. It's not a fair fight and it's an animal that is not eaten. It's as grotesque as watching two people literally fight to the death where one is a slave and the other doing it for sport of fame.

Spread

Torture. No other explanation.

Turpentine

ball wrote: »

I'm sure he doesn't want to fight. I'm sure cows don't want to go to the slaughterhouse either.
PERSONALLY, I find it entertaining. I can see why people are against it. I'd imagine most who are are against eating meat too?

If the bull wasn't already exhausted/drugged and the matador got to use only his fists, that would be a fight worth watching.

Son Of A Vidic

Dangerous Man wrote: »

My Spanish teacher in secondary school was a nun. She said one day that she felt guilty about it - but still enjoyed going to the bullfights. I'd expected better from a nun. Ah well.

I'd expect nothing less from a nun actually.

Rented Mule

I'm going to guess that you could probably get a nice steak after a bullfight.

Dancor

Have been to one in Portugal, didn't like it though. It was great when the bull got the junior matadors though.

southsiderosie

The King of Moo wrote: »

It's the same reason I don't like hunting for sport: it's a pointless and often cruel killing of an innocent creature which no-one benefits from.

I don't think that hunting generally goes in the same category as bullfighting. The animals aren't primes beforehand, and the point of hunting for sport is to make a clean kill. In parts of the US, there are also major public benefits from hunting for sport, as the deer population has exploded and presents a serious risk to drivers.

Most of my father's family own guns and are avid hunters, so although I have the opportunity, I don't go hunting. I don't have a problem with it though. And everyone in my family who hunts eats the meat or gives it away, so it isn't wasteful.

Guill

Was in Valencia a few years back, there is a nice Bull ring beside the train station. There were fights on every night but we could not get tickets, there were ALL sold out.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

I think I would go.

Culture is a touchy subject. Would you like the Spaniards imposing rules to restrict our culture?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

southsiderosie wrote: »

I don't think that hunting generally goes in the same category as bullfighting. The animals aren't primes beforehand, and the point of hunting for sport is to make a clean kill. In parts of the US, there are also major public benefits from hunting for sport, as the deer population has exploded and presents a serious risk to drivers.

Most of my father's family own guns and are avid hunters, so although I have the opportunity, I don't go hunting. I don't have a problem with it though. And everyone in my family who hunts eats the meat or gives it away, so it isn't wasteful.

He said hunting for sport, there is a difference.

southsiderosie

Rhea Red Granola wrote: »

He said hunting for sport, there is a difference.

But they see it as hunting for sport. They just don't waste what they kill. I don't think the two are necessarily mutually exclusive.

Scanlas The 2nd

I have no problem with it from a logical point of view but it does bother me a bit emotionally when I think about it.

If you ban bullfighting then it only makes sense really that you should ban killing animals to eat as well. In both cases we kill for our own pleasure. We don't need to eat meat. However I love my meat too much to be moral about the issue.

stovelid

If some jumped up morris dancer wants to have a fight a bull, let them jump in and have a go at the bull with no weapons.

Fair is fair and all that.

g'em

I went to a bullfight when I was in Spain a few years back. It was curiosity more than anything else, and I can't say I enjoyed it per se, but it's a hell of a spectacle. It's very difficult not to get caught up in the excitement of it all even though your sense of ethics is telling you not to.

stovelid wrote:

If some jumped up morris dancer wants to have a fight a bull, let them jump in and have a go at the bull with no weapons.

There's a similar sport - bull leaping - that's still practiced in parts of Spain and France whereby the Recortadores are unarmed and do exactly as it says on the tin, they goad the cow (young cows are used for their smaller size, not bulls) into charging and leap over it when it gets near. The most athletic performance "wins" and guys are regularly injured badly doing it. To the best of my knowledge the cow doesn't get killed at the end of it. This kind of sport - while arguably still exploiting the animal - would be something that I'd have a lot fewer issues with.

Latchy

All those people letting a bull chase after them on the streets of Pamplona ,well your only asking or trouble .Have they no homes to go to or wah ?

Da Shins Kelly

Rhea Red Granola wrote: »

I think I would go.

Culture is a touchy subject. Would you like the Spaniards imposing rules to restrict our culture?

Culture isn't above criticism though, every country has its unsavoury aspects and just because we don't agree with them doesn't mean that we're trying impose rules on them. No one is trying to do that, we're just criticising it, which we're well within our rights to do. The Spanish know full well what the majority of outsiders think of the practice anyway, and the fact is the majority of Spaniards don't care about bullfighting or don't agree with it. It's a rapidly dying form of entertainment, and thus a significantly less important part of their culture. Spanish culture has a lot more going for it than bullfighting. People seem to associate Spain with bullfighting, and see it as am essential part of their identity. However, ask any young Spanish person about it and they will either look at you funny or express either distaste or lack of interest. Bullfighting is a practice that is quickly becoming associated with the older generations, an old fashioned sport. Bullfighting isn't inextricably linked to a Spanish identity.

Of course when it comes to referendums on the issue then it's up to the Spanish to vote on it themselves, and no one is going to force them to do anything obviously. We can criticise it from a distance, no one says we have to tip-toe around anything, especially something like this that the vast majority can recognise as wrong.

TheChevron

I don't think the treatment of the bull is any worse that what you would find in a Halal abattoir tbh.

I would definitely go to a bull fight if I got the chance.