"To fight is to live"

southsiderosie · 15-06-2011 12:40AM #1

While visiting a friend in Madrid, we came across posters advertising a corrida - a bullfighting festival. The tickets were actually pretty cheap, and we discussed going. On the one hand, I thought it would be interesting to see something that is so deeply rooted in Spanish history, and to see all of the pageantry. On the other hand, I feel like there is something deeply grotesque about the whole thing. Apparently many Spaniards feel the same way; signs in the Metro which read "Torear es vivir" ("To bullfight is to live") have been scribbled over with "Torear es matar" (To bullfight is to kill").

Have you ever been to a bullfight? If so, how did you feel about it afterwards?

If not, would you ever go to one if given the chance? Why or why not?

In the end, I didn't go; my friend had to work, and I was kind of uncomfortable with the whole thing.

Elmidena · 15-06-2011 12:42AM

Couldn't go to one myself, don't agree with it at all. I'm a big softie at heart

Red Hand · 15-06-2011 12:44AM

Never been to a bullfight. I wouldn't feel comfortable going to one cause it's using an animal's pain for people's enjoyment...

But then again, I eat meat from animals which have been brought up in sh*te conditions, so I'm a hypocrite.

bc dub · 15-06-2011 12:47AM

they treat the bulls like kings pre fight. if the bullfighter is seen to be causing pain to the bull, he's boo'd by the crowd and is technically a bad bullfighter.

it will be banned eventually though.

Chuck Stone · 15-06-2011 12:55AM

Bull fighting is anything but a bull fight.

It's animal torture.

krudler · 15-06-2011 12:59AM

I root for the bull

The King of Moo · 15-06-2011 01:00AM

Bullfighting is cruel, prolonged animal torture.
I wouldn't mind bullfighting so much if the matadors/toreadors were unarmed, but I don't think they'd go for that.
People argue that it's justified as the bulls are so well treated before they're killed. But wouldn't it be even better to treat them like kings and then not kill them?
It's like arguing that you can beat your wife because you treat her so well 90% of the time.

stevejr · 15-06-2011 01:01AM

To Fight is to live???

You've got it wrong mate. Stop what you're doing, look around you at your friends and neighbours. Everyone's struggling....

Eire 2011. To live is to fight!

Riamfada · 15-06-2011 01:02AM

The King of Moo wrote: »

It's like arguing that you can beat your wife because you treat her so well 90% of the time.

95%

Johro · 15-06-2011 01:04AM

'Many prominent former bullfighters report that the bull is intentionally debilitated with tranquilizers and laxatives, beatings to the
kidneys, petroleum jelly rubbed into their eyes to blur vision, heavy weights hung around their neck for weeks before the fight, and
confinement in darkness for hours before being released into the bright arena.
A well-known bullfight veterinarian, Dr. Manuel Sanz, reports that in 1987 more than 90 percent of bulls killed in fights had their
horns "shaved" before the fight. Horn shaving involves sawing off several inches of the horns so the bull misses his thrusts at the
altered angle.
The matador, two picadors on horses, and three men on foot stab the bull repeatedly when he enters the ring. After the bull has been
completely weakened by fear, blood loss, and exhaustion, the matador attemp ts to make a clean kill with a sword to the heart.
Unfortunately for the suffering bull, the matador rarely succeeds and must make several thrusts, often missing the bull's heart and
piercing his lungs instead. Often a dagger must be used to cut the spinal cord and spare the audience the sight of a defenseless animal
in the throes of death. The bull may still be fully conscious but paralyzed when his ears and tail are cut off as the final show of
"victory.'' '
(World Animal Foundation)

seanybiker · 15-06-2011 01:05AM

I love when the bull catches the little fookers in their gay suits and bates them around a bit

Red Hand · 15-06-2011 01:06AM

stevejr wrote: »

To Fight is to live???

You've got it wrong mate. Stop what you're doing, look around you at your friends and neighbours. Everyone's struggling....

Eire 2011. To live is to fight!

Do you write songs for The Script?:pac:

Wolfe Tone · 15-06-2011 01:08AM

Never been, I would go though.

southsiderosie · 15-06-2011 01:14AM

seanybiker wrote: »

I love when the bull catches the little fookers in their gay suits and bates them around a bit

Aw...I like the suits and the horses and the ladies all dressed up. Plus some matadors are smokin' hot. I don't particularly like the idea of the stabbing part though.

The King of Moo · 15-06-2011 01:17AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

Aw...I like the suits and the horses and the ladies all dressed up. Plus some matadors are smokin' hot. I don't particularly like the idea of the stabbing part though.

You can have the suits and dressing up and horses without the intentional killing of animals:

horse racing.

The King of Moo · 15-06-2011 01:18AM

Riamfada wrote: »

95%

Too generous.
Whipped! *fwatish!*

Red Hand · 15-06-2011 01:25AM

Why do they use small breeds of bulls? Admittedly, the head is big and the horns are long, but they just make the bull look disproportionate.

http://www.weirdthings.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/look-at-the-bull-his-horn-is-up-the-spanish-guys-ass-serves-him-right.jpg

Compare the above spanish bull to a typical bull you'd see in Ireland:

http://thewordin365.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/bull_oostvaardersplassen_2.jpg

It looks like they pick bulls with large heads and wide horns so that that part of the bull is the widest part that the matador will encounter. So once they don't clash with the head/horns, they'll be ok. Whereas a typical large beef breed would knock over a matador as the bull's body is wider than the head/horns.

ball · 15-06-2011 01:30AM

Johro wrote: »

'Many prominent former bullfighters report that the bull is intentionally debilitated with tranquilizers and laxatives, beatings to the
kidneys, petroleum jelly rubbed into their eyes to blur vision, heavy weights hung around their neck for weeks before the fight, and
confinement in darkness for hours before being released into the bright arena.
A well-known bullfight veterinarian, Dr. Manuel Sanz, reports that in 1987 more than 90 percent of bulls killed in fights had their
horns "shaved" before the fight. Horn shaving involves sawing off several inches of the horns so the bull misses his thrusts at the
altered angle.

If this is true, it's definitely unfair, and should be stopped.

I would go to a bullfight though, and I'd enjoy it too.
Sure, a bull gets killed. But at least he gets a fight instead of being sent straight to the slaughterhouse.

Da Shins Kelly · 15-06-2011 01:30AM

No, I'd never go. I know the festival you are talking about though, I was living in Madrid for a while too. I could never bring myself to go to one. I was actually living very near a farm that raises bulls for the sole purpose of ending up in the arena, and I used to go for walks up around it sometimes. They have a great quality of life (on this farm anyway) up until the fight, and it is a form of livlihood for some people in Spain. There's also the cultural and historical significance of it, but it doesn't stop me from feeling as though there's something inherently wrong about it, especially today. I suppose most cultures have something barbaric about them though..You can also compare the Spanish brand of bull fighting to the Portugese brand - in Spain the bull is eventually killed, in Portugal it isn't. In Portugal it's all about the spectacle and the torero's skill in staying out of harm's way, but the animal is not slaughtered in the arena. I don't know why this can't be introduced in Spain too.

A lot of Spanish people seem to feel as though it's quite cruel too though, and it has already been banned in Catalonia, so I feel as though its day will be done soon anyway.

southsiderosie · 15-06-2011 01:31AM

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Why do they use small breeds of bulls? Admittedly, the head is big and the horns are long, but they just make the bull look disproportionate.

http://www.weirdthings.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/look-at-the-bull-his-horn-is-up-the-spanish-guys-ass-serves-him-right.jpg

What exactly is that from? I think bulls for big events look something more like this.

Misty Chaos · 15-06-2011 01:34AM

I went to one when I was a school tour to Spain, it was interesting to say the least. Cruel? Perhaps. Different and entertaining? Yeah it was, the arena we were at also had a resturant on side so it's not like the bull went to waste, too bad I couldn't stay, would definately eaten some.

Would I go again, yeah I would. It's a different culture to our own and I'm open to exploring it. As for the whole animal cruelty aspect, there are people who have being or have being treated worse than any bull ever was so sort out the whole human rights issue first before you come talking to me about animal rights. It's not that I don't care about animals I just feel there is no point in animals ending up having more rights than people do in some parts of the world!

ball · 15-06-2011 01:35AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

What exactly is that from? I think bulls for big events look something more like this.

That's the same bull from a different angle

Senna · 15-06-2011 01:37AM

Wouldn't go and see a bull fight, should and hopefully will be banned. But I think they should bring a Pamplona style bull run (without the cruelty at the end) to Ireland. Its like ethic moron cleansing, if your stupid enough to be there, it can only benefit mankind if you get killed.

Red Hand · 15-06-2011 01:38AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

What exactly is that from? I think bulls for big events look something more like this.

OK, my pic was probably of a bullock (or it looks small cause your man is impaled above him!), but even in the above pic there, the horns are wider than the shoulders.

I'd love to see a matador take on a big beef bull.

southsiderosie · 15-06-2011 01:40AM

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

OK, my pic was probably of a bullock (or it looks small cause your man is impaled above him!), but even in the above pic there, the horns are wider than the shoulders.

I'd love to see a matador take on a big beef bull.

I know nothing about livestock, but would fighting bulls be bred to be quicker versus a big (relatively slow?) animal for meat?

The King of Moo · 15-06-2011 01:41AM

Misty Chaos wrote: »

I went to one when I was a school tour to Spain, it was interesting to say the least. Cruel? Perhaps. Different and entertaining? Yeah it was, the arena we were at also had a resturant on side so it's not like the bull went to waste, too bad I couldn't stay, would definately eaten some.

Would I go again, yeah I would. It's a different culture to our own and I'm open to exploring it. As for the whole animal cruelty aspect, there are people who have being or have being treated worse than any bull ever was so sort out the whole human rights issue first before you come talking to me about animal rights. It's not that I don't care about animals I just feel there is no point in animals ending up having more rights than people do in some parts of the world!

I don't get the argument that it's traditional and part of Spanish culture. Lots of places still maintain genital mutilation, racism, sexism or homophobia as traditional parts of their culture, but it doesn't mean that I have to respect those things.

And why should we have to solve all human rights issues before we can move on to animal rights?
Can't we do both simultaneously?
You could certainly make a convincing case that a person's life is more valuable than the lives of other animals, and therefore human rights are more important, but that doesn't mean that animal rights should be completely disregarded.

Da Shins Kelly · 15-06-2011 01:43AM

ball wrote: »

If this is true, it's definitely unfair, and should be stopped.

I would go to a bullfight though, and I'd enjoy it too.
Sure, a bull gets killed. But at least he gets a fight instead of being sent straight to the slaughterhouse.

You say "he gets a fight" as if he somehow enjoys it or wants it. Man, I've seen some of these fights on television and they are truly horrific. I don't really understand how anyone enjoys them at all. There's just copious amounts of blood everywhere, and the creature is so visibly distressed by everything that's happening, that its actually upsetting. It's a bloodsport in reality, not "art", like a lot of its advocates try to claim.

Misty Chaos wrote: »

Would I go again, yeah I would. It's a different culture to our own and I'm open to exploring it. As for the whole animal cruelty aspect, there are people who have being or have being treated worse than any bull ever was so sort out the whole human rights issue first before you come talking to me about animal rights. It's not that I don't care about animals I just feel there is no point in animals ending up having more rights than people do in some parts of the world!

It's a cultural thing that the majority of Spaniards have very little interest in. It's not this big, wonderful celebration of Spanish culture that people seem to think it is. Spanish people I socialised with either couldn't care less about it, or completely disagreed with it.
And also, Spain is in the developed world, it's not as though human rights abuses are rife over there. Yes, other parts of the world need to get their sh*t together with regards to the value they place on human life before getting into animal rights, but Spain isn't one of those places, so maybe they should focus some attention on how they treat animals.

Red Hand · 15-06-2011 01:44AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

I know nothing about livestock, but would fighting bulls be bred to be quicker versus a big (relatively slow?) animal for meat?

I dunno about that, but I was charged by a charlais once and were it not for someone managing to distract him midway, I'd have been a goner.

southsiderosie · 15-06-2011 01:46AM

The King of Moo wrote: »

I don't get the argument that it's traditional and part of Spanish culture. Lots of places still maintain genital mutilation, racism, sexism or homophobia as traditional parts of their culture, but it doesn't mean that I have to respect those things.

True, but a lot of people do not put human rights issues on the same scale as animal rights issues. I don't think bullfighting is comparable to FGM, but rather other blood sports (like bear baiting, for example). For some reason though, I find cockfighting and in particular dogfighting far more distasteful (in theory) than bullfighting.

The King of Moo · 15-06-2011 01:56AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

True, but a lot of people do not put human rights issues on the same scale as animal rights issues. I don't think bullfighting is comparable to FGM, but rather other blood sports (like bear baiting, for example). For some reason though, I find cockfighting and in particular dogfighting far more distasteful (in theory) than bullfighting.

People do tend to put either human rights above animal rights and vice versa (usually the former) but I simply hate any cruelty to any creature, human or otherwise. If I had to choose between ending all human rights abuses or animal rights abuses I'd probably pick the former, but of course I'd never be in such a situation and I can choose to hate both forms of abuse.

It's interesting you find some bloodsports more distasteful than others, I think we all do that. Maybe you find cockfighting and dogfighting more distasteful because the animals are made to fight each other.
It might also be because we tend to instinctively find certain animals more sympathetic, either because of their appearance or because they're often kept as pets. I think Spain would face trade embargoes from every nation on Earth if they indulged in puppy fighting instead of bull fighting.

Dangerous Man · 15-06-2011 01:56AM

My Spanish teacher in secondary school was a nun. She said one day that she felt guilty about it - but still enjoyed going to the bullfights. I'd expected better from a nun. Ah well.

"To fight is to live"

Have you been to a bullfight? Would you ever go? 102 votes

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