The Irish kick in the face to the EU is disgusting

CommuterIE

They helped us along the way since the 70's to prosperity... the structural funds given to this country were unreal, hell they bailed us out now... yet you have a lot of inept and dam right stupid people now blaming the EU for our ills...

This is 125% bull****... the Irish got themselves into this mess by electing an incompetent government time and time again....

I think it is about time people in Ireland relise who is paying the ****ing bills right now! And shame on anybody who blames the EU for this mess... we had autonomy and we failed...

godtabh

CommuterIE wrote: »

They helped us along the way since the 70's to prosperity... the structural funds given to this country were unreal, hell they bailed us out now... yet you have a lot of inept and dam right stupid people now blaming the EU for our ills...

This is 125% bull****... the Irish got themselves into this mess by electing an incompetent government time and time again....

I think it is about time people in Ireland relise who is paying the ****ing bills right now! And shame on anybody who blames the EU for this mess... we had autonomy and we failed...

There is a difference between sovereign debt and private debt. It's just a pity they are classed together.

I don't think we had autonomy. Werent we an independent state?

CommuterIE

godtabh wrote: »

There is a difference between sovereign debt and private debt. It's just a pity they are classed together.

I don't think we had autonomy. Werent we an independent state?

We were in control of our destiny, guess what we failed... generations will suffer as a result, and it is not the EU's fault who find themselves in a position to bail us out... morons like Bertie Ahern were allowed to run this country into the ground,,, Brian Lenihan I really liked because he displayed a side to Irish politics that is largely absent... an actual intelligent person! and god bless his soul, may he RIP

charlemont

O.P. Is right, We got a taste of wealth and lost the run of ourselves, Our political system is a joke and still is. We should be aiming to be like a western EU state rather than just copying Britain or America.

ahal

The E.U. has done very well out of Ireland ... I read somewhere that for every €1 we got, they fished €7 out of our waters.

later12

OP i think you just summed up the exasperation of many continental Europeans (and non-EU third parties) on the issue.

That is not to say it is necessarily the whole picture. Apart from guaranteeing our borrowings - and they are our borrowings - I do not think that the EU member states are still, to this day, continuing in a helpful tradition towards the peripherals or the community as a whole.

However, this does not at all detract from the fact that this mess was of Irelands making. The EU and the Eurozone has only ever given us opportunity, and we have squandered the lot.

later12

ahal wrote: »

The E.U. has done very well out of Ireland ... I read somewhere that for every €1 we got, they fished €7 out of our waters.

Where was somewhere?

CommuterIE

ahal wrote: »

The E.U. has done very well out of Ireland ... I read somewhere that for every €1 we got, they fished €7 out of our waters.

This is also retarded to the extreme... the EU has funded this country previoulsy to the tune of billions... and can you provide a source to this stupid fact?

srsly78

ahal wrote: »

The E.U. has done very well out of Ireland ... I read somewhere that for every €1 we got, they fished €7 out of our waters.

1/10 too obvious

michael999999

I wish people would stop calling it a bail out,its a bloody loan!

later12

michael999999 wrote: »

I wish people would stop calling it a bail out,its a bloody loan!

It is a loan, and we are the borrowers, but the money could possibly not have been raised by us at all, and certainly could not have been raised at the rate at which it has been raised and is being raised.

So it is a loan, but it is also a bailout.

Einhard

CommuterIE wrote: »

They helped us along the way since the 70's to prosperity... the structural funds given to this country were unreal, hell they bailed us out now... yet you have a lot of inept and dam right stupid people now blaming the EU for our ills...

This is 125% bull****... the Irish got themselves into this mess by electing an incompetent government time and time again....

I think it is about time people in Ireland relise who is paying the ****ing bills right now! And shame on anybody who blames the EU for this mess... we had autonomy and we failed...

I agree that we have to shoulder the burden for our own difficulties, and that the EU cannot be blamed for the property bubble, or the financial crisis. We had plenty of warning and opportunity to avoid the twin crashes, but we did nothing to remedy a clearly unsustainable situation.

Having said that however, I am angy with how this is being dealt with by Brussels, and more specifically, by the ECB in Frankfurt. The Irish government made what looks to have been a disastarous decision to guarantee bank bonds. That was their mistake. At the time, there was a furious reaction from some of our European partners, because it was feared that that would trigger a flight of capital from their banks to Irish ones.

Now however, the situation is reversed. The Irish government would, IMO, dearly love to burn the bankholders, and renege on the guarantee. It's clearly in the best interests of the country to do so. Europe though, won't countenance such a scenario, and they won't for purely selfish reasons. Jean Claude Trichet is taking a hard line because he is afraid of
"contamination" and the risk to the Euro project, a fear held in other nations too, but compounded by the fact that so many European banks hold so much private Irish debt. Germany and France won't countenance a default on this private debt, because it will hit their own institutions most.

This is clearly a deeply unfair situation. Ireland is being made to carry a vastly disproportionate share of the burden for saving the Euro project. We are being forced to shoulder massive private debts for the gain of other European nations. What's worse though, its that we're being treated as freeloading pariahs into the bargain. Thus, the French are demanding we raise our Corporation Tax rates in return for their "generosity", when it is they who are the prime beneficeries of our guarantees. They are enforcing a hugely inequitable system to safeguard their own institutions (and the Euro), and then penalising us on the double for doing so. It's remarkably brazen, and I'm surprised more people are not remarking on it.

In conclusion then, I don't blame the EU for causing our banking and financial crisis (although European banks, and the ECB hardly convered themselves in glory prior to the crash). However, the actions of Brussels, and in particular the ECB and the French does leave a bitter taste in my mouth. We are the ones suffering to plug the breaches in the Euro dam, and we're getting nothing but abuse for doing so.

ahal

CommuterIE wrote: »

This is also retarded to the extreme... the EU has funded this country previoulsy to the tune of billions... and can you provide a source to this stupid fact?

I don't see much point ... clearly you're on a rant and just want people to agree with you.

KINGVictor

CommuterIE wrote: »

They helped us along the way since the 70's to prosperity... the structural funds given to this country were unreal, hell they bailed us out now... yet you have a lot of inept and dam right stupid people now blaming the EU for our ills...

This is 125% bull****... the Irish got themselves into this mess by electing an incompetent government time and time again....

I think it is about time people in Ireland relise who is paying the ****ing bills right now! And shame on anybody who blames the EU for this mess... we had autonomy and we failed...

You have a valid point commuter! Ireland has recieved the most structural funds per capita and yes they are bailing out Ireland as you put it. You are also correct when you say that majority of the blame should go to Irish politicians that sqaundered the opportunity to better the lives of the Irish people in the long run.

My problem however is the way the EU is going about solving the current economic impasse which incidentally is not just only Ireland's problem, essentially, It affects every EU member country directly or indirectly.

My main concern (and I assume majority of people you were referring to) is the manner the German/Franco axis seems to be imposing itself on other member countries.

Agreed, Ireland etc messed up and have found themselves in dire straights and the ECB lent money (( that has to be repaid by the way)) to help them so that there can be some restoration of normalcy and help save the Euro! but yet insist that Ireland increase its corporation tax- the same mechanism that helps sustain her economy...isnt that kind of counter-intuitive and destructive?

In my opinion, the EU reminds me of the Animal Farm- all are equal but some are more equal than others!

ahal

later10 wrote: »

Where was somewhere?

Financial Times.

later12

ahal wrote: »

Financial Times.

That narrows it down - link?

I have a sub and not seeing anything relevant in the search.

ahal

€100 billion I believe was the figure. I'm not going to disrespect retardedness further. Night night.

later12

ahal wrote: »

€100 billion I believe was the figure. I'm not going to disrespect retardedness further. Night night.

What, no link? Cannot remember which section it appeared under? Cannot remember the writers name?

No idea why it might not be appearing in the search function on the FT archive?

ahal

I'm sure you'll find it. It's actually a widely reported fact. Actually you don't have to go as far as FT: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056129701

dsmythy

michael999999 wrote: »

I wish people would stop calling it a bail out,its a bloody loan!

That's what they think.....

Scofflaw

ahal wrote: »

I'm sure you'll find it. It's actually a widely reported fact. Actually you don't have to go as far as FT: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056129701

To save the effort of copying and pasting previous debunkings of this "widely reported fact" - and the derailment of the thread - let's just point out that if you can't back it with facts, you shouldn't post it. If you want facts, go here:

http://www.seaaroundus.org/eez/372/14.aspx

Click on the "Show Tabular Data" button at the bottom, and do the sums. Those are real figures, with a detailed methodology, done by a scientific research establishment with no stake in our political debate. The other figures have been made up by journalists, lobbyists, and politicians at various points for various reasons.

You should also look at the UK's EEZ, because we fish in their waters under the CFP:

http://www.seaaroundus.org/eez/826.aspx

cordially,
Scofflaw

Jesus Wept

125%?

The Orb

CommuterIE wrote: »

They helped us along the way since the 70's to prosperity... the structural funds given to this country were unreal, hell they bailed us out now... yet you have a lot of inept and dam right stupid people now blaming the EU for our ills...

This is 125% bull****... the Irish got themselves into this mess by electing an incompetent government time and time again....

I think it is about time people in Ireland relise who is paying the ****ing bills right now! And shame on anybody who blames the EU for this mess... we had autonomy and we failed...

Very simplistic view, totally ignores the fact that the Irish taxpayers are being strangled so that German and French banks don't pay the price for their own reckless lending. So much for democracy and a sense of "Union". We are a small nation and are expendable, that's how Europe views us. Fu*k the EU is what I say.

Scofflaw

The Orb wrote: »

Very simplistic view, totally ignores the fact that the Irish taxpayers are being strangled so that German and French banks don't pay the price for their own reckless lending. So much for democracy and a sense of "Union". We are a small nation and are expendable, that's how Europe views us. Fu*k the EU is what I say.

And you're also welcome to post some relevant evidence that the "Irish taxpayers are being strangled so that German and French banks don't pay the price for their own reckless lending". I won't hold my breath, though, because nobody has yet done so.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The Orb

Scofflaw wrote: »

And you're also welcome to post some relevant evidence that the "Irish taxpayers are being strangled so that German and French banks don't pay the price for their own reckless lending". I won't hold my breath, though, because nobody has yet done so.

cordially,
Scofflaw

It is a commonly held fact that we are being screwed to protect French and Germans, a few articles below will articulate that.

http://www.mcavoy.ie/ezine.php?content=151

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2011/03/07/claim-the-moral-high-ground
http://www.eurointelligence.com/index.php?id=581&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=3002&tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=901&cHash=c374cd2038

Just read the above links.
Of course the Irish banking system was reckless in the extreme, but this recklessness was aided and abetted by European banks.

You if course are welcome to post your evidence that French and Ferman banks were in no way complicit in funding reckless Irish practices.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

cavedave

We can argue about how people should have acted and act now. It is a bit like demanding that gravity be changed though. You can only go against the laws of economics for so long.

If our interest rate was too low inorder to accomodate the slower growing economies of German, France and central Europe. This would mean money was too cheap. If something is too cheap you will buy too much of it. So you can blame Irish people borrowed too much. We did. But saying this was not inevitable denies economics.

Blaming Irish people for borrowing too much when money was too cheap is like blaming Americans for eating too much when subsidised syrup is put into most of their food. You are not wrong but you are also being Canut like.

PatsytheNazi

godtabh wrote: »

There is a difference between sovereign debt and private debt. It's just a pity they are classed together.

I don't think we had autonomy. Werent we an independent state?

That's the biggest problem in this state, their's a total delusion that 26 out of Ireland's 32 counties became indepedent in 1922. All that was created was a Gombeen/puppet state whose ideology is that if their the best boy in the class and say yes to everything, Britain/the EU since 1973 will look down kindly at them and throw they a few scraps. Hence Lenihan's yes to bailing out private gambling debt's of the European bankers.

It's a pity Ireland didn't become an independent Republic :rolleyes:

Scofflaw

The Orb wrote: »

It is a commonly held fact that we are being screwed to protect French and Germans, a few articles below will articulate that.

http://www.mcavoy.ie/ezine.php?content=151

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2011/03/07/claim-the-moral-high-ground
http://www.eurointelligence.com/index.php?id=581&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=3002&tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=901&cHash=c374cd2038

Just read the above links.
Of course the Irish banking system was reckless in the extreme, but this recklessness was aided and abetted by European banks.

You if course are welcome to post your evidence that French and Ferman banks were in no way complicit in funding reckless Irish practices.

Sure, here you go: http://www.centralbank.ie/data/site/cmbs/ie_table_a.4.2_covered_institutions_-_aggregate_balance_sheet.xls

That's the aggregate balance sheets of the bailed out banks from 2003, and as per the fish, you can do the sums yourself, rather than relying on the say-so of others (who appear not to have done the sums). You'll note that the securities and deposits from the eurozone are a small fraction of the money involved, and the securities haven't been paid down particularly - they've only dropped by about €7bn since 2007.

Again, that this is a commonly held view doesn't make it a fact.

cordially,
Scofflaw

southsiderosie

cavedave wrote: »

We can argue about how people should have acted and act now. It is a bit like demanding that gravity be changed though. You can only go against the laws of economics for so long.

If our interest rate was too low inorder to accomodate the slower growing economies of German, France and central Europe. This would mean money was too cheap. If something is too cheap you will buy too much of it. So you can blame Irish people borrowed too much. We did. But saying this was not inevitable denies economics.

Blaming Irish people for borrowing too much when money was too cheap is like blaming Americans for eating too much when subsidised syrup is put into most of their food. You are not wrong but you are also being Canut like.

But the cost of borrowing and the cost of goods are two different things. Because Ireland couldn't control interest rates, it needed to use fiscal policy to cool the economy, the property sector in particular. But nobody wanted to talk about raising taxes or transaction costs, or engaging in wage or spending constraints. The convergence process acted as a golden straitjacket on the government, and as soon as Ireland entered the eurozone, everyone in Leinster House seemingly forgot how Ireland got where it was in the first place.

Son Of A Vidic

CommuterIE wrote: »

hell they bailed us out now... yet you have a lot of inept and dam right stupid people now blaming the EU for our ills...

That's a nomination for funniest post of the year surely......."hell they bailed us out."...bailed us out you say? How do some people just not get it? They actually bailed themselves and their Euro currency out, not us.

ahal

Scofflaw wrote: »

To save the effort of copying and pasting previous debunkings of this "widely reported fact" - and the derailment of the thread - let's just point out that if you can't back it with facts, you shouldn't post it. If you want facts, go here:

http://www.seaaroundus.org/eez/372/14.aspx

Hi Scofflaw,

Firstly re: derailing threads, I wasn't the one who began using insults as a way of furthering my arguement, though I would like to see the original sweeping statement backed up with some 'facts' as you mention it. I hope you don't ban me for pointing this out.

Facts are pretty fluid things anyway, as we've found out in the most obvious way. The 'fact' was that the Irish economy couldn't falter etc! I quoted something which has been reported over the years in several respected publications. I think opinion has to enter it at some point ... what people believe based on their own research ... because facts can and are juggled a million different ways. The figure quoted may be calculated in a mischevious way - I don't know - but suffice to say it a lot.

Scofflaw wrote: »

If you want facts, go here:

Because I don't agree with your version that means I don't want the facts? - a bit personal that. Attack the post, not the poster?

PatsytheNazi

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

That's a nomination for funniest post of the year surely......."hell they bailed us out."...bailed us out you say? How do some people just not get it? They actually bailed themselves and their Euro currency out, not us.

Just as funny as Britain's loan that has to be repaid back in full at 5% was a 'free gift' to an "old friend in trouble". Paddy has never been an easier push over :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

"The point that I would make is this - the only money that Britain has lent directly is to the Republic of Ireland, and I think it is actually in our national interest and, I would say, in the interests of Northern Ireland, that we do not see a collapse in the economy in the Republic," Mr Cameron said during Prime Minister's Questions.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/business-news/republic-using-loan-to-snatch-investment-15154716.html?r=RSS#ixzz1Nw7cR0Zs

digme

op you are not that educated in the matters of currency creation it would seem.....

cavedave

southsiderosie

But the cost of borrowing and the cost of goods are two different things. Because Ireland couldn't control interest rates, it needed to use fiscal policy to cool the economy, the property sector in particular. But nobody wanted to talk about raising taxes or transaction costs, or engaging in wage or spending constraints. The convergence process acted as a golden straitjacket on the government, and as soon as Ireland entered the eurozone, everyone in Leinster House seemingly forgot how Ireland got where it was in the first place.

Ok so we agree that people should not have borrowed when money was too cheap denies fundamental principles of supply and demand. That is a pretty big shibboleth gotten over.

So then next issue is should adult supervision have upped the cost of borrowing? Yes and that adult supervision was both in Ireland and in Europe. Both the banks that lent our banks the money and our banks that lent us the
money didn't do their jobs.

Our politicians and central bank and regulator did not do their jobs. The Irish central bank could have increased reserve requirements for example. The central bankers job has been described as having to take away the punchbowl just as the party is getting good. Because politicians won't do this independent central banks are regarded as better.

Politicians will not contract an economy that is overheated. That is why we have independent central banks. So giving out to politicians for not doing what no one expects them to do seems naive.

PatsytheNazi

cavedave wrote: »

Ok so we agree that people should not have borrowed when money was too cheap denies fundamental principles of supply and demand. That is a pretty big shibboleth gotten over.

So then next issue is should adult supervision have upped the cost of borrowing? Yes and that adult supervision was both in Ireland and in Europe. Both the banks that lent our banks the money and our banks that lent us the
money didn't do their jobs.

Our politicians and central bank and regulator did not do their jobs. The Irish central bank could have increased reserve requirements for example. The central bankers job has been described as having to take away the punchbowl just as the party is getting good. Because politicians won't do this independent central banks are regarded as better.

Politicians will not contract an economy that is overheated. That is why we have independent central banks. So giving out to politicians for not doing what no one expects them to do seems naive.

Yes, but those on the central bank and the regulator's are just yes men. They are appointed by the Govt. As a Dutch economist said on Primetime, if a Govt says tight regulation then it's tight regulation, if a Govt says light regulation then it's light regulation, their civil servants that's their job. I'm not making excuses for Neary etc, as I said their just yes men and cronies of FF etc

One important point about the Central Bank, was that on the board running it, two trade union members have to be appointed to it and get all the wages, perks etc with it as well as their Trade Union handouts. One of them was David Begg of ICTU during the whole madcap era 2000 -. And then this 'comrade' had the neck to do the 'Workers Unite ' bit down at the GPO before Xmas and where he was rightly booed out of it :mad:

Scofflaw

ahal wrote: »

Hi Scofflaw,

Firstly re: derailing threads, I wasn't the one who began using insults as a way of furthering my arguement, though I would like to see the original sweeping statement backed up with some 'facts' as you mention it. I hope you don't ban me for pointing this out.

Facts are pretty fluid things anyway, as we've found out in the most obvious way. The 'fact' was that the Irish economy couldn't falter etc! I quoted something which has been reported over the years in several respected publications. I think opinion has to enter it at some point ... what people believe based on their own research ... because facts can and are juggled a million different ways. The figure quoted may be calculated in a mischevious way - I don't know - but suffice to say it a lot.

Because I don't agree with your version that means I don't want the facts? - a bit personal that. Attack the post, not the poster?

Unfortunately, though, you haven't put forward any facts. What you've done is referenced other people's opinions on what those facts might be - and, in turn, those people have been unable to provide facts to back their opinion.

There is no research that shows that EU countries have taken €100bn in fish out of Irish waters. None. Nobody has the figures that show how the €100bn figure is reached, because those figures don't exist. They, like you, are simply taking other people's word for it.

If you can find a set of catch figures broken down like Pew's, and showing approximately 10 times the catch shown in Pew's, I'd be very interested to see them. Until you can do so, I have to point out that you have no facts to support your case, and I do. Mine are available to you, and you can check them yourself. I didn't create those figures, I found them by dint of phoning around BIM and other fisheries bodies asking for accurate and complete figures on catches from Irish waters by year and country until somebody kindly referred me to them.

You could perhaps do the same with your €100bn figure - phone around the people claiming it until somebody points you to the figures the conclusion is based on. Until you do, I'll rest my case - and I won't hold my breath, either, because I'm afraid you won't find any such figures.

Here's some questions for you, though - why, given there is no data backing that €100bn figure, and given that it therefore could just have been plucked out of the air for all you know, do you accept it? And why do you think the Pew figures disagree so strongly with it? Are you going to change your mind, now that you know, at the least, that there are figures, published by a highly reputable research body with no political stake in the debate, which disagree totally with the figure you had accepted?

cordially,
Scofflaw

irishh_bob

michael999999 wrote: »

I wish people would stop calling it a bail out,its a bloody loan!

thier was a bailout too , the irish tax payer took one in the gut for german , french and british banks

irishh_bob

Einhard wrote: »

I agree that we have to shoulder the burden for our own difficulties, and that the EU cannot be blamed for the property bubble, or the financial crisis. We had plenty of warning and opportunity to avoid the twin crashes, but we did nothing to remedy a clearly unsustainable situation.

Having said that however, I am angy with how this is being dealt with by Brussels, and more specifically, by the ECB in Frankfurt. The Irish government made what looks to have been a disastarous decision to guarantee bank bonds. That was their mistake. At the time, there was a furious reaction from some of our European partners, because it was feared that that would trigger a flight of capital from their banks to Irish ones.

Now however, the situation is reversed. The Irish government would, IMO, dearly love to burn the bankholders, and renege on the guarantee. It's clearly in the best interests of the country to do so. Europe though, won't countenance such a scenario, and they won't for purely selfish reasons. Jean Claude Trichet is taking a hard line because he is afraid of
"contamination" and the risk to the Euro project, a fear held in other nations too, but compounded by the fact that so many European banks hold so much private Irish debt. Germany and France won't countenance a default on this private debt, because it will hit their own institutions most.

This is clearly a deeply unfair situation. Ireland is being made to carry a vastly disproportionate share of the burden for saving the Euro project. We are being forced to shoulder massive private debts for the gain of other European nations. What's worse though, its that we're being treated as freeloading pariahs into the bargain. Thus, the French are demanding we raise our Corporation Tax rates in return for their "generosity", when it is they who are the prime beneficeries of our guarantees. They are enforcing a hugely inequitable system to safeguard their own institutions (and the Euro), and then penalising us on the double for doing so. It's remarkably brazen, and I'm surprised more people are not remarking on it.

In conclusion then, I don't blame the EU for causing our banking and financial crisis (although European banks, and the ECB hardly convered themselves in glory prior to the crash). However, the actions of Brussels, and in particular the ECB and the French does leave a bitter taste in my mouth. We are the ones suffering to plug the breaches in the Euro dam, and we're getting nothing but abuse for doing so.

the irish goverment ( weak fools ) were coercied by germany and france into guarenteeing all in sundry

later12

Scofflaw wrote: »

Unfortunately, though, you haven't put forward any facts. What you've done is referenced other people's opinions on what those facts might be - and, in turn, those people have been unable to provide facts to back their opinion.

There is no research that shows that EU countries have taken €100bn in fish out of Irish waters. None. Nobody has the figures that show how the €100bn figure is reached, because those figures don't exist. They, like you, are simply taking other people's word for it.

If you can find a set of catch figures broken down like Pew's, and showing approximately 10 times the catch shown in Pew's, I'd be very interested to see them. Until you can do so, I have to point out that you have no facts to support your case, and I do. Mine are available to you, and you can check them yourself. I didn't create those figures, I found them by dint of phoning around BIM and other fisheries bodies asking for accurate and complete figures on catches from Irish waters by year and country until somebody kindly referred me to them.

You could perhaps do the same with your €100bn figure - phone around the people claiming it until somebody points you to the figures the conclusion is based on. Until you do, I'll rest my case - and I won't hold my breath, either, because I'm afraid you won't find any such figures.

Here's some questions for you, though - why, given there is no data backing that €100bn figure, and given that it therefore could just have been plucked out of the air for all you know, do you accept it? And why do you think the Pew figures disagree so strongly with it? Are you going to change your mind, now that you know, at the least, that there are figures, published by a highly reputable research body with no political stake in the debate, which disagree totally with the figure you had accepted?

cordially,
Scofflaw

irishh_bob wrote: »

the irish goverment ( weak fools ) were coercied by germany and france into guarenteeing all in sundry

This is the problem in these debates. Someone puts forward a reasonable and articulate point of view, and someone else comes along with the axe of populism and, without looking, casually knocks the lot. How can you compete with that?

Anyway, as someone who doesnt actually know a thing about the figures I appreiate the efforts of those who do know something about it. Although on that note are these address working for anybody else, or is there an alternative source?

http://www.seaaroundus.org/eez/372/14.aspx

http://www.seaaroundus.org/eez/826.aspx

ahal

The fact is I don't know the exact figure re: fish and neither does anyone else I would suspect. I would contend though that it's a lot. It may be 40 billion ... it may be 50 ... or 100. My original point - in response to the OP - was that Europe has done pretty well out of us too. Would you not agree that 30+ years of having our waters fished has been highly lucrative for Europe?

I actually agree with the OP to a point, but behind every reckless borrower there's a reckless lender. I've had it with intellectual arguements on the economy. The people who said "jump on the bandwagon" in the mid 00's have all reinvented themselves as economic diviners. Our best and brightest didn't prove themselves to be very good or bright. Despite their qualifications, a middle aged woman who cleans windows part - time from inner city Dublin could've more accruately predicted economics.

PatsytheNazi

ahal wrote: »

The fact is I don't know the exact figure re: fish and neither does anyone else I would suspect. I would contend though that it's a lot. It may be 40 billion ... it may be 50 ... or 100. My original point - in response to the OP - was that Europe has done pretty well out of us too. Would you not agree that 30+ years of having our waters fished has been highly lucrative for Europe?

I actually agree with the OP to a point, but behind every reckless borrower there's a reckless lender. I've had it with intellectual arguements on the economy. The people who said "jump on the bandwagon" in the mid 00's have all reinvented themselves as economic diviners. Our best and brightest didn't prove themselves to be very good or bright. Despite their qualifications, a middle aged woman who cleans windows part - time from inner city Dublin could've more accruately predicted economics.

You have a point to a certain extent, the EU hasn't been the Santa Claus that it has been made out to be. On a recent Primetime they quoted €40 Billion taken from Irish waters since 1973 and €60 Bn giving to us in funds. No sources or anything, probably a guesstimate.

srsly78

ahal wrote: »

I would contend though that it's a lot. It may be 40 billion ... it may be 50 ... or 100.

Still waiting for you to provide a shred of evidence for your contention.

beeftotheheels

ahal wrote: »

The fact is I don't know the exact figure re: fish and neither does anyone else I would suspect. I would contend though that it's a lot. It may be 40 billion ... it may be 50 ... or 100. My original point - in response to the OP - was that Europe has done pretty well out of us too. Would you not agree that 30+ years of having our waters fished has been highly lucrative for Europe?

I think the fish is a red herring! What their "fishing boats" were actually doing was secretly stealing the €850 bn worth of oil and gas that used to be under our seas...

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/99406

D1stant

KINGVictor wrote: »

In my opinion, the EU reminds me of the Animal Farm- all are equal but some are more equal than others!

Indeed. I guess Ireland would be Boxer?, bound for the knacker yard after dutifully delivering the treaties and taking on the cost of pig slop. Ah PIGS... how ironic

sollar

We still don't know exactly what role the EU or the ECB played in the bank guarantee of sep 08.

Scofflaw

ahal wrote: »

The fact is I don't know the exact figure re: fish and neither does anyone else I would suspect. I would contend though that it's a lot. It may be 40 billion ... it may be 50 ... or 100.

Or nothing at all, if we're going to simply not bother with evidence and make up whatever number we like.

We have figures, so in fact we do know, to within a margin of error that completely precludes the figures you're randomly throwing out there.

ahal wrote: »

My original point - in response to the OP - was that Europe has done pretty well out of us too. Would you not agree that 30+ years of having our waters fished has been highly lucrative for Europe?

On balance, no, not really, because the research shows it's been much less than "Europe" has passed over in subsidies. You'd need to look at which countries fished, and which paid into the EU funds we got as subsidies, to know who, if anyone, benefited. But then you'd need to factor in tariff-free access to European markets for Irish companies versus tariff-free access to the Irish market for European companies, and the cost of the fishery protection vessels the EU paid for, and the benefits from providing a tariff-free entry point to the EU market for US companies...

later10 wrote:

Anyway, as someone who doesnt actually know a thing about the figures I appreiate the efforts of those who do know something about it. Although on that note are these address working for anybody else, or is there an alternative source?

Sorry - did you scroll all the way down the page? The "Show Tabular Data" button is at the bottom right, but just below the fold when you open the page. Should work, even if you're getting this error message for the chart:

ErrorMessage: Invalid path / permissions: [C:\SAUP WEB\HOME\sf_images\temp] Please confirm the TempDirectory property is set to a valid path and that the anonymous web user (ASPNET/Network Service) has file level (NTFS) write permissions on this directory. If the TempDirectory property is not set, .netCHARTING will attempt to write the temp files in the same directory as the calling script.

cordially,
Scofflaw

irishh_bob

later10 wrote: »

This is the problem in these debates. Someone puts forward a reasonable and articulate point of view, and someone else comes along with the axe of populism and, without looking, casually knocks the lot. How can you compete with that?

Anyway, as someone who doesnt actually know a thing about the figures I appreiate the efforts of those who do know something about it. Although on that note are these address working for anybody else, or is there an alternative source?

http://www.seaaroundus.org/eez/372/14.aspx

http://www.seaaroundus.org/eez/826.aspx

many well respected commentators believe that the main powers in europe would have been seriously compromised in the event of an irish banking meltdown , i dont think its too much of a stretch to believe thier was considerable leaning on lennehan

Scofflaw

sollar wrote: »

We still don't know exactly what role the EU or the ECB played in the bank guarantee of sep 08.

But we do have a lot of material from the time of the decision about the people involved, right down to Lenihan's midnight garlic-munching, plus the variety of quite detailed ass-covering leaks from the DoF....and the ECB is conspicuous by its absence. None of the documents, as far as I recall, even say "we must take into account the ECB's policy of x", the very least one would expect if the driver for the decision was ECB policy.

Funnily enough, though, despite the absence of evidence for involvement, plenty of people are willing to claim that they weren't just involved, but were behind the decision. "Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence!" they cry, and go on to make suppositions with no basis at all, even though absence of evidence most definitely is absence of evidence.

(Mind you, I'd be very surprised if the EU/ECB wasn't in any way consulted on possible legal implications in advance, given their potential veto in matters of State aid, although I would expect such consultation to have been on a contingency basis and requesting legal opinions on various options.)

On balance, I think we have to accept that the guarantee decision really was the work of the government. The EU/ECB represented a potential block to the decision, and may have been consulted in that role, but the idea that they were the drivers of the decision doesn't have any evidence to support it at all.

Far better, if one is going to do it, to simply say "we still don't know exactly what role they played, hem hem", and leave it to the imagination of the listener (or reader).

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

irishh_bob wrote: »

many well respected commentators believe that the main powers in europe would have been seriously compromised in the event of an irish banking meltdown , i dont think its too much of a stretch to believe thier was considerable leaning on lennehan

The German banks themselves, however, have denied that they have or had any large exposure to Ireland - a claim which fits with the available facts. The contrary facts, demonstrating a large exposure, are once again absent.

Something that following political debates in this country has definitely cured me of is any shred of belief that "well respected commentators" are actually in possession of the facts.

cordially,
Scofflaw

ahal

Scofflaw wrote: »

Or nothing at all, if we're going to simply not bother with evidence and make up whatever number we like.

But the evidence dictated that the Irish economy couldn't fail?!