The Irish kick in the face to the EU is disgusting

CommuterIE

They helped us along the way since the 70's to prosperity... the structural funds given to this country were unreal, hell they bailed us out now... yet you have a lot of inept and dam right stupid people now blaming the EU for our ills...

This is 125% bull****... the Irish got themselves into this mess by electing an incompetent government time and time again....

I think it is about time people in Ireland relise who is paying the ****ing bills right now! And shame on anybody who blames the EU for this mess... we had autonomy and we failed...

godtabh

CommuterIE wrote: »

They helped us along the way since the 70's to prosperity... the structural funds given to this country were unreal, hell they bailed us out now... yet you have a lot of inept and dam right stupid people now blaming the EU for our ills...

This is 125% bull****... the Irish got themselves into this mess by electing an incompetent government time and time again....

I think it is about time people in Ireland relise who is paying the ****ing bills right now! And shame on anybody who blames the EU for this mess... we had autonomy and we failed...

There is a difference between sovereign debt and private debt. It's just a pity they are classed together.

I don't think we had autonomy. Werent we an independent state?

CommuterIE

godtabh wrote: »

There is a difference between sovereign debt and private debt. It's just a pity they are classed together.

I don't think we had autonomy. Werent we an independent state?

We were in control of our destiny, guess what we failed... generations will suffer as a result, and it is not the EU's fault who find themselves in a position to bail us out... morons like Bertie Ahern were allowed to run this country into the ground,,, Brian Lenihan I really liked because he displayed a side to Irish politics that is largely absent... an actual intelligent person! and god bless his soul, may he RIP

charlemont

O.P. Is right, We got a taste of wealth and lost the run of ourselves, Our political system is a joke and still is. We should be aiming to be like a western EU state rather than just copying Britain or America.

ahal

The E.U. has done very well out of Ireland ... I read somewhere that for every €1 we got, they fished €7 out of our waters.

later12

OP i think you just summed up the exasperation of many continental Europeans (and non-EU third parties) on the issue.

That is not to say it is necessarily the whole picture. Apart from guaranteeing our borrowings - and they are our borrowings - I do not think that the EU member states are still, to this day, continuing in a helpful tradition towards the peripherals or the community as a whole.

However, this does not at all detract from the fact that this mess was of Irelands making. The EU and the Eurozone has only ever given us opportunity, and we have squandered the lot.

later12

ahal wrote: »

The E.U. has done very well out of Ireland ... I read somewhere that for every €1 we got, they fished €7 out of our waters.

Where was somewhere?

CommuterIE

ahal wrote: »

The E.U. has done very well out of Ireland ... I read somewhere that for every €1 we got, they fished €7 out of our waters.

This is also retarded to the extreme... the EU has funded this country previoulsy to the tune of billions... and can you provide a source to this stupid fact?

srsly78

ahal wrote: »

The E.U. has done very well out of Ireland ... I read somewhere that for every €1 we got, they fished €7 out of our waters.

1/10 too obvious

michael999999

I wish people would stop calling it a bail out,its a bloody loan!

later12

michael999999 wrote: »

I wish people would stop calling it a bail out,its a bloody loan!

It is a loan, and we are the borrowers, but the money could possibly not have been raised by us at all, and certainly could not have been raised at the rate at which it has been raised and is being raised.

So it is a loan, but it is also a bailout.

Einhard

CommuterIE wrote: »

They helped us along the way since the 70's to prosperity... the structural funds given to this country were unreal, hell they bailed us out now... yet you have a lot of inept and dam right stupid people now blaming the EU for our ills...

This is 125% bull****... the Irish got themselves into this mess by electing an incompetent government time and time again....

I think it is about time people in Ireland relise who is paying the ****ing bills right now! And shame on anybody who blames the EU for this mess... we had autonomy and we failed...

I agree that we have to shoulder the burden for our own difficulties, and that the EU cannot be blamed for the property bubble, or the financial crisis. We had plenty of warning and opportunity to avoid the twin crashes, but we did nothing to remedy a clearly unsustainable situation.

Having said that however, I am angy with how this is being dealt with by Brussels, and more specifically, by the ECB in Frankfurt. The Irish government made what looks to have been a disastarous decision to guarantee bank bonds. That was their mistake. At the time, there was a furious reaction from some of our European partners, because it was feared that that would trigger a flight of capital from their banks to Irish ones.

Now however, the situation is reversed. The Irish government would, IMO, dearly love to burn the bankholders, and renege on the guarantee. It's clearly in the best interests of the country to do so. Europe though, won't countenance such a scenario, and they won't for purely selfish reasons. Jean Claude Trichet is taking a hard line because he is afraid of
"contamination" and the risk to the Euro project, a fear held in other nations too, but compounded by the fact that so many European banks hold so much private Irish debt. Germany and France won't countenance a default on this private debt, because it will hit their own institutions most.

This is clearly a deeply unfair situation. Ireland is being made to carry a vastly disproportionate share of the burden for saving the Euro project. We are being forced to shoulder massive private debts for the gain of other European nations. What's worse though, its that we're being treated as freeloading pariahs into the bargain. Thus, the French are demanding we raise our Corporation Tax rates in return for their "generosity", when it is they who are the prime beneficeries of our guarantees. They are enforcing a hugely inequitable system to safeguard their own institutions (and the Euro), and then penalising us on the double for doing so. It's remarkably brazen, and I'm surprised more people are not remarking on it.

In conclusion then, I don't blame the EU for causing our banking and financial crisis (although European banks, and the ECB hardly convered themselves in glory prior to the crash). However, the actions of Brussels, and in particular the ECB and the French does leave a bitter taste in my mouth. We are the ones suffering to plug the breaches in the Euro dam, and we're getting nothing but abuse for doing so.

ahal

CommuterIE wrote: »

This is also retarded to the extreme... the EU has funded this country previoulsy to the tune of billions... and can you provide a source to this stupid fact?

I don't see much point ... clearly you're on a rant and just want people to agree with you.

KINGVictor

CommuterIE wrote: »

They helped us along the way since the 70's to prosperity... the structural funds given to this country were unreal, hell they bailed us out now... yet you have a lot of inept and dam right stupid people now blaming the EU for our ills...

This is 125% bull****... the Irish got themselves into this mess by electing an incompetent government time and time again....

I think it is about time people in Ireland relise who is paying the ****ing bills right now! And shame on anybody who blames the EU for this mess... we had autonomy and we failed...

You have a valid point commuter! Ireland has recieved the most structural funds per capita and yes they are bailing out Ireland as you put it. You are also correct when you say that majority of the blame should go to Irish politicians that sqaundered the opportunity to better the lives of the Irish people in the long run.

My problem however is the way the EU is going about solving the current economic impasse which incidentally is not just only Ireland's problem, essentially, It affects every EU member country directly or indirectly.

My main concern (and I assume majority of people you were referring to) is the manner the German/Franco axis seems to be imposing itself on other member countries.

Agreed, Ireland etc messed up and have found themselves in dire straights and the ECB lent money (( that has to be repaid by the way)) to help them so that there can be some restoration of normalcy and help save the Euro! but yet insist that Ireland increase its corporation tax- the same mechanism that helps sustain her economy...isnt that kind of counter-intuitive and destructive?

In my opinion, the EU reminds me of the Animal Farm- all are equal but some are more equal than others!

ahal

later10 wrote: »

Where was somewhere?

Financial Times.

later12

ahal wrote: »

Financial Times.

That narrows it down - link?

I have a sub and not seeing anything relevant in the search.

ahal

€100 billion I believe was the figure. I'm not going to disrespect retardedness further. Night night.

later12

ahal wrote: »

€100 billion I believe was the figure. I'm not going to disrespect retardedness further. Night night.

What, no link? Cannot remember which section it appeared under? Cannot remember the writers name?

No idea why it might not be appearing in the search function on the FT archive?

ahal

I'm sure you'll find it. It's actually a widely reported fact. Actually you don't have to go as far as FT: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056129701

dsmythy

michael999999 wrote: »

I wish people would stop calling it a bail out,its a bloody loan!

That's what they think.....

Scofflaw

ahal wrote: »

I'm sure you'll find it. It's actually a widely reported fact. Actually you don't have to go as far as FT: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056129701

To save the effort of copying and pasting previous debunkings of this "widely reported fact" - and the derailment of the thread - let's just point out that if you can't back it with facts, you shouldn't post it. If you want facts, go here:

http://www.seaaroundus.org/eez/372/14.aspx

Click on the "Show Tabular Data" button at the bottom, and do the sums. Those are real figures, with a detailed methodology, done by a scientific research establishment with no stake in our political debate. The other figures have been made up by journalists, lobbyists, and politicians at various points for various reasons.

You should also look at the UK's EEZ, because we fish in their waters under the CFP:

http://www.seaaroundus.org/eez/826.aspx

cordially,
Scofflaw

Jesus Wept

125%?

The Orb

CommuterIE wrote: »

They helped us along the way since the 70's to prosperity... the structural funds given to this country were unreal, hell they bailed us out now... yet you have a lot of inept and dam right stupid people now blaming the EU for our ills...

This is 125% bull****... the Irish got themselves into this mess by electing an incompetent government time and time again....

I think it is about time people in Ireland relise who is paying the ****ing bills right now! And shame on anybody who blames the EU for this mess... we had autonomy and we failed...

Very simplistic view, totally ignores the fact that the Irish taxpayers are being strangled so that German and French banks don't pay the price for their own reckless lending. So much for democracy and a sense of "Union". We are a small nation and are expendable, that's how Europe views us. Fu*k the EU is what I say.

Scofflaw

The Orb wrote: »

Very simplistic view, totally ignores the fact that the Irish taxpayers are being strangled so that German and French banks don't pay the price for their own reckless lending. So much for democracy and a sense of "Union". We are a small nation and are expendable, that's how Europe views us. Fu*k the EU is what I say.

And you're also welcome to post some relevant evidence that the "Irish taxpayers are being strangled so that German and French banks don't pay the price for their own reckless lending". I won't hold my breath, though, because nobody has yet done so.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The Orb

Scofflaw wrote: »

And you're also welcome to post some relevant evidence that the "Irish taxpayers are being strangled so that German and French banks don't pay the price for their own reckless lending". I won't hold my breath, though, because nobody has yet done so.

cordially,
Scofflaw

It is a commonly held fact that we are being screwed to protect French and Germans, a few articles below will articulate that.

http://www.mcavoy.ie/ezine.php?content=151

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2011/03/07/claim-the-moral-high-ground
http://www.eurointelligence.com/index.php?id=581&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=3002&tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=901&cHash=c374cd2038

Just read the above links.
Of course the Irish banking system was reckless in the extreme, but this recklessness was aided and abetted by European banks.

You if course are welcome to post your evidence that French and Ferman banks were in no way complicit in funding reckless Irish practices.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

cavedave

We can argue about how people should have acted and act now. It is a bit like demanding that gravity be changed though. You can only go against the laws of economics for so long.

If our interest rate was too low inorder to accomodate the slower growing economies of German, France and central Europe. This would mean money was too cheap. If something is too cheap you will buy too much of it. So you can blame Irish people borrowed too much. We did. But saying this was not inevitable denies economics.

Blaming Irish people for borrowing too much when money was too cheap is like blaming Americans for eating too much when subsidised syrup is put into most of their food. You are not wrong but you are also being Canut like.

PatsytheNazi

godtabh wrote: »

There is a difference between sovereign debt and private debt. It's just a pity they are classed together.

I don't think we had autonomy. Werent we an independent state?

That's the biggest problem in this state, their's a total delusion that 26 out of Ireland's 32 counties became indepedent in 1922. All that was created was a Gombeen/puppet state whose ideology is that if their the best boy in the class and say yes to everything, Britain/the EU since 1973 will look down kindly at them and throw they a few scraps. Hence Lenihan's yes to bailing out private gambling debt's of the European bankers.

It's a pity Ireland didn't become an independent Republic :rolleyes:

Scofflaw

The Orb wrote: »

It is a commonly held fact that we are being screwed to protect French and Germans, a few articles below will articulate that.

http://www.mcavoy.ie/ezine.php?content=151

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2011/03/07/claim-the-moral-high-ground
http://www.eurointelligence.com/index.php?id=581&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=3002&tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=901&cHash=c374cd2038

Just read the above links.
Of course the Irish banking system was reckless in the extreme, but this recklessness was aided and abetted by European banks.

You if course are welcome to post your evidence that French and Ferman banks were in no way complicit in funding reckless Irish practices.

Sure, here you go: http://www.centralbank.ie/data/site/cmbs/ie_table_a.4.2_covered_institutions_-_aggregate_balance_sheet.xls

That's the aggregate balance sheets of the bailed out banks from 2003, and as per the fish, you can do the sums yourself, rather than relying on the say-so of others (who appear not to have done the sums). You'll note that the securities and deposits from the eurozone are a small fraction of the money involved, and the securities haven't been paid down particularly - they've only dropped by about €7bn since 2007.

Again, that this is a commonly held view doesn't make it a fact.

cordially,
Scofflaw

southsiderosie

cavedave wrote: »

We can argue about how people should have acted and act now. It is a bit like demanding that gravity be changed though. You can only go against the laws of economics for so long.

If our interest rate was too low inorder to accomodate the slower growing economies of German, France and central Europe. This would mean money was too cheap. If something is too cheap you will buy too much of it. So you can blame Irish people borrowed too much. We did. But saying this was not inevitable denies economics.

Blaming Irish people for borrowing too much when money was too cheap is like blaming Americans for eating too much when subsidised syrup is put into most of their food. You are not wrong but you are also being Canut like.

But the cost of borrowing and the cost of goods are two different things. Because Ireland couldn't control interest rates, it needed to use fiscal policy to cool the economy, the property sector in particular. But nobody wanted to talk about raising taxes or transaction costs, or engaging in wage or spending constraints. The convergence process acted as a golden straitjacket on the government, and as soon as Ireland entered the eurozone, everyone in Leinster House seemingly forgot how Ireland got where it was in the first place.

Son Of A Vidic

CommuterIE wrote: »

hell they bailed us out now... yet you have a lot of inept and dam right stupid people now blaming the EU for our ills...

That's a nomination for funniest post of the year surely......."hell they bailed us out."...bailed us out you say? How do some people just not get it? They actually bailed themselves and their Euro currency out, not us.