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When atheists go too far

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    #1082
    Ado75
    Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭Ado75


    How can atheist "go too far". I'm sure given the STATs, 99.99999% of wrong doing and violence in the world is perpetrated by believers in some kind of religion. It's not like a violent atheist would be displaying anything other than normal human behaviour.

    The more Atheists the better. Less fighting over Golden Temples, Holy Sepulchers and other religious whatnots.


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    #1083
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    philologos wrote: »
    Many people doubt that the earth is round. That's irrational skepticism as I would see it.
    Not any more!
    philologos wrote: »
    I don't believe people should assume God's existence but they should think about what reason there is for it. I believe that there are strong reasons and that's why I'm a Christian.
    Why not think about the reason for not believing? As in, absolutely zero evidence and you can live without an irrational fear.


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    #1084
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Ado75 wrote: »
    The more Atheists the better. Less fighting over Golden Temples, Holy Sepulchers and other religious whatnots.

    First dibs on those golden temples when the religious are gone.


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    #1085
    Ado75
    Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭Ado75


    dvpower wrote: »
    First dibs on those golden temples when the religious are gone.

    MMMM I'm thinking - Nightclub.


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    #1086
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    steve06 wrote: »
    Not any more!
    Click.
    steve06 wrote: »
    Why not think about the reason for not believing? As in, absolutely zero evidence and you can live without an irrational fear.

    I think there is good reason to believe in the existence of God better reason than atheism. That's why I decided to become a Christian rather than remaining agnostic.

    There's nothing irrational about it as I would see it.


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    #1087
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    philologos wrote: »
    Click.



    I think there is good reason to believe in the existence of God better reason than atheism. That's why I decided to become a Christian rather than remaining agnostic.

    There's nothing irrational about it as I would see it.

    You are still leaving a gap between theism and your particular religion


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    #1088
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    philologos wrote: »
    Click.
    Those people are called idiots, bringing them into your argument weakens your position like you wouldn't believe!
    philologos wrote: »
    I think there is good reason to believe in the existence of God better reason than atheism.
    Why the overwhelming need to preach to others about it and portray a vision of eternal hell if they don't listen?


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    #1089
    rossie1977
    Registered Users Posts: 11,341 ✭✭✭✭rossie1977


    philologos wrote: »
    Many people doubt that the earth is round

    and they would be right, its an oblate spheroid :P
    Ado75 wrote: »

    The more Atheists the better. Less fighting over Golden Temples, Holy Sepulchers and other religious whatnots.

    well we would have less witch burnings, religious inquisitions, crusades, stonings, suicide bombings thats for sure with if everyone was atheist


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    #1090
    NTMK
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,575 ✭✭✭NTMK


    philologos wrote: »
    Click.
    See they are irrational skeptics but the difference is that there is conclusive proof that the world is a round

    there is no proof of god


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    #1091
    Ado75
    Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭Ado75


    philologos wrote: »
    Click.



    I think there is good reason to believe in the existence of God better reason than atheism. That's why I decided to become a Christian rather than remaining agnostic.

    There's nothing irrational about it as I would see it.

    Two words - No evidence.


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    #1092
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Ado75 wrote: »
    Two words - No evidence.

    That's really not going to convince me to be an atheist though, because I believe that there is evidence for God's existence (evidence being that which makes God's existence more probable than not). I've linked to some reasons I gave a few years ago and I will refine these in time.
    steve06 wrote: »
    Why the overwhelming need to preach to others about it and portray a vision of eternal hell if they don't listen?

    That isn't what happened on this thread. I was asked about my beliefs on thread and I answered. Simple as.


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    #1093
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    philologos wrote: »
    I've linked to some reasons I gave a few years ago and I will refine these in time..

    And 5 out of those 7 were fundamentally flawed or completely irrelevant in terms of evidence. The other 2 weren't sourced.


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    #1094
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    philologos wrote: »
    because I believe that there is evidence for God's existence

    You believe there is, but there isn't. It's like a child believing in santa clause.


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    #1095
    dpe
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭dpe


    philologos wrote: »
    I don't believe people should assume God's existence but they should think about what reason there is for it. I believe that there are strong reasons and that's why I'm a Christian.

    What strong reasons, and why Christianity? Which you have to admit, is effectively the default choice of religion in this time and place. Even ignoring all the non-Judaic religions you still have a choice of three. Personally I don't see how anyone could choose Christianity over Judaism or Islam without proper study of all three since they all claim to be handed down from the same diety. And then you need to throw in the church of the latter day saints, 7th day adventists, 57 flavours of protestantism, three of four interpretations of Islam, kaballah, etc, etc. How did you choose? And why?


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    #1096
    Ado75
    Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭Ado75


    philologos wrote: »
    That's really not going to convince me to be an atheist though, because I believe that there is evidence for God's existence (evidence being that which makes God's existence more probable than not). I've linked to some reasons I gave a few years ago and I will refine these in time.

    I am intrigued, Seriously. Tell some of these measurable, recorded facts that lead you to see a God as being more probable.


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    #1097
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,355 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    philologos wrote: »
    It isn't for not believing in Him. It's for how we've disobeyed His standards throughout our lives. The penalty isn't because of not believing in Him, it's because of what we have done wrong. God has given us a second chance by taking away that penalty so that we can come to know Him more. It is up to you if you want to accept this.

    It's for precisely for wrongdoing.
    The wrong doing includes eating meat on a Friday. Not paying enough money to the Church for forgiveness. Using contraception in an over populated world. Not respecting his name!!! Actually having a thought but not acting on it!!!! Actually be born is wrong doing too because of original sin.

    The standards you are talking about have forever been moving and shifting depending on which version of Christianity/Judaism/Islam-ism you follow. So effectively there is no standard from this particular god you worship. It is quite obviously an amalgamation of various different gods, rules and cultural norms. Even with the roman catholic church you have "different" local teachings to fit in with the culture. You should see how McDonald match local markets and check it against how the churches have spread.


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    #1098
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    ^^ I'm a non-Catholic so not really anything to do with RCC decrees. I have no issue with the use of contraceptives. I don't think anyone needs to pay anything for forgiveness that's between man and God. I believe that we are accountable for our own sins. Hope this clarifies.


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    #1099
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    dpe wrote: »
    What strong reasons, and why Christianity? Which you have to admit, is effectively the default choice of religion in this time and place. Even ignoring all the non-Judaic religions you still have a choice of three. Personally I don't see how anyone could choose Christianity over Judaism or Islam without proper study of all three since they all claim to be handed down from the same diety. And then you need to throw in the church of the latter day saints, 7th day adventists, 57 flavours of protestantism, three of four interpretations of Islam, kaballah, etc, etc. How did you choose? And why?

    He was raised CoI(I'd bet) and went to a CoI secondary school(this is a fact).


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    #1100
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    philologos wrote: »
    I believe that we are accountable for our own sins.

    So explain original sin?


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    #1101
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    steve06 wrote: »
    So explain original sin?

    On the Christianity forum a few years ago.


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    #1102
    Ado75
    Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭Ado75


    philologos wrote: »
    ^^ I'm a non-Catholic so not really anything to do with RCC decrees. I have no issue with the use of contraceptives. I don't think anyone needs to pay anything for forgiveness that's between man and God. I believe that we are accountable for our own sins. Hope this clarifies.

    Your "current" Christian system is based on hodge-podge of stories about a man named Jesus and his relationship to the then Judaic god. Many Christian believe in the word of god as written in the bible. However, this "word" of god (new testament) is born out of the Council of Nicaea and the First Council of Constantinople and other meetings. It was groups of men deciding what was in and what was out, what was relevant to the Jesus story and what was not, who begat who, who was born of nothing or were they born of something (the divinity issue). When you read the history of the formation of early Christian texts it is really demonstrated how much of a hand Man had it the whole thing.


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    #1103
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Ado75 wrote: »
    Your "current" Christian system is based on hodge-podge of stories about a man named Jesus and his relationship to the then Judaic god. Many Christian believe in the word of god as written in the bible. However, this "word" of god (new testament) is born out of the Council of Nicaea and the First Council of Constantinople and other meetings. It was groups of men deciding what was in and what was out, what was relevant to the Jesus story and what was not, who begat who, who was born of nothing or were they born of something (the divinity issue). When you read the history of the formation of early Christian texts it is really demonstrated how much of a hand Man had it the whole thing.

    The criterion were actually quite simple:
    Texts used in churches in the first century (any other century rejected).
    Texts written in likely languages to have been used at the time.
    Texts which could be traced back to the Apostles or to the early church.

    If these criterion didn't fit they weren't included. It's not that much of a conspiracy theory really.


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    #1104
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    philologos wrote: »
    On the Christianity forum a few years ago.

    you mind explaining it rather than just linking to a thread. By looking at the first post, you don't understand it yourself.


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    #1105
    Ado75
    Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭Ado75


    philologos wrote: »
    The criterion were actually quite simple:
    Texts used in churches in the first century (any other century rejected).
    Texts written in likely languages to have been used at the time.
    Texts which could be traced back to the Apostles or to the early church.

    If these criterion didn't fit they weren't included. It's not that much of a conspiracy theory really.

    I didn't say it was a conspiracy theory. Jesus existed, thats fine and a great influence on modern thinking he was too. However, claims of divinity that are then distorted over 350 years and thrashed out in large conferences isn't exactly a verbatim record of the teachings a supreme being.


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    #1106
    Kate10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33 ✭Kate10


    philologos wrote: »
    On the Christianity forum a few years ago.

    Wow. I started reading this thread and it reminded me of reading an "in the night garden" book to my daughter ...

    "Oh look, here is the noisy ninky nonk with Macca Pacca ...and here is Upsy Daisy ..Hello Upsey Daisy! Lets all go for a ride in the noisy ninky nonk with the teeny tiny Pontipines ..blather blather blather."

    Catholics cannot seem to distinguish between personal beliefs and facts, and so an argument with someone like this is head frying. You can't argue with that stuff because reading it is like relocating to an alternate universe where logic is irrelevant and delusion is standard. Everyone who partakes of it agrees to ignore everything that contradicts their belief system. If someone embraces willful ignorance there is nothing you can do to stop them. Maybe I'm just lazy but when I am in the company of someone like that I mostly feel faintly embarrassed for them and change the subject.

    Having said that I don't see why an atheist should tip toe around crazy beliefs because they fall under a particular religious label.


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    #1107
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    philologos wrote: »
    That's really not going to convince me to be an atheist though, because I believe that there is evidence for God's existence
    I wouldn't have thought it was right to say you believe in evidence, there's either conclusive evidence or there's not.
    philologos wrote: »
    ^^ I'm a non-Catholic so not really anything to do with RCC decrees. I have no issue with the use of contraceptives. I don't think anyone needs to pay anything for forgiveness that's between man and God. I believe that we are accountable for our own sins. Hope this clarifies.
    But by not being Catholic your just following one of the many offshots that are even further removed from Jesus. I'm pretty sure the Catholic church lied about Jesus so any breakaway religion is further changing the Jesus story to conform to their own viewpoint.

    I just don't understand how people can put faith in the ancient holly books, they're clearly flawed and human centric.


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    #1108
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    philologos wrote: »
    I have no issue with the use of contraceptives.

    Want to think about that one again Jakkass.....?
    (isnt it a little surprising that you appear to have completely forgotten your stance on an issue which you consider to be no different to the killing of a born human being)


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    #1109
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,355 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    philologos wrote: »
    ^^ I'm a non-Catholic so not really anything to do with RCC decrees. I have no issue with the use of contraceptives. I don't think anyone needs to pay anything for forgiveness that's between man and God. I believe that we are accountable for our own sins. Hope this clarifies.
    But Contraception was not the only thing I mentioned plus any belief you currently have stems from a different version of the "truth". It kind of proves the point I am making that. What ever version you believe now is effectively man made and little or nothing to do with a god you claim to somehow magically know to be wrong doing.
    There really is no honest way for you to know wrong doing but you can have a belief that you know what is right and wrong which is no different from how an atheist knows right and wrong. Except you have given up responsibility for deciding yourself and left it to other people or religious text that are known to be factually incorrect.


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    #1110
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    But Contraception was not the only thing I mentioned plus any belief you currently have stems from a different version of the "truth". It kind of proves the point I am making that. What ever version you believe now is effectively man made and little or nothing to do with a god you claim to somehow magically know to be wrong doing.
    There really is no honest way for you to know wrong doing but you can have a belief that you know what is right and wrong which is no different from how an atheist knows right and wrong. Except you have given up responsibility for deciding yourself and left it to other people or religious text that are known to be factually incorrect.

    Not really. My criterion for not regarding contraception as being sinful is that it isn't mentioned in the Bible. That's my criterion for determining what is the teaching of man made institutions or what is based on the Bible which I would hold as God's inspired word.

    I don't see how one could say that there is no way to know wrongdoing. It is something that seems to be quite intrinsic to our consciences hence the healthy and normal place of guilt when we do what is wrong in order to rebuke us and to bring us to a knowledge of what is good.

    I haven't given up responsibility for deciding myself. I've decided that I want to follow Christ. That's a free decision.


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    #1111
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    drkpower wrote: »
    Want to think about that one again Jakkass.....?
    (isnt it a little surprising that you appear to have completely forgotten your stance on an issue which you consider to be no different to the killing of a born human being)

    Plenty (most I'd say) of contraceptive devices don't produce this effect in the embryo. I'm sure you know this but you're being disingenuous.
    ScumLord wrote: »
    But by not being Catholic your just following one of the many offshots that are even further removed from Jesus. I'm pretty sure the Catholic church lied about Jesus so any breakaway religion is further changing the Jesus story to conform to their own viewpoint.

    That makes no sense at all. How is it further removed from Jesus? Or rather how is the RCC closer? The RCC wasn't formed until the fourth century. The New Testament texts however are dated to the first century and it seems that these are the most useful source.
    ScumLord wrote: »
    I just don't understand how people can put faith in the ancient holly books, they're clearly flawed and human centric.

    Human centric is also a poor claim. The Bible is God's word to humankind, so of course it is going to be addressed to humankind and in terms that humans can understand. Personally I think there is a lot more to God that is beyond our comprehension.


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