Sick fish

Sleepy

A bit of background: had a common goldfish and it's tank broke, bought a 60L for him and the following week after the guy in the petshop tested my water, added a black pearl ranchu, an oranda and 5 white mountain river minnows.

I hadn't realised the tank wouldn't have fully cycled yet at this point. 4 weeks later I've lost all of the minnows and the two fancies seem to be on the way out today.

The common was showing white spots in his/her tail so after a 50% water change yesterday (treated the new water with Nutrafin Aqua Plus Water Conditioner), I treated the tank with 6ml of Oodinol 1000 (as the spots matched the image on the box in the store) and removed the active carbon from the filter as recommended by the instructions with the medication (leaving the sponges in place).

Test readings in the tank before I treated it for the were:

PH - 8 (same as our tap water)
Ammonia - 0
Nitrate - <0.025 (as low as the chart shows)
Nitrite - 5mg / 1000 (or lower, this was the lightest colour on the chart so the closest).

I'm stuck in work at the moment so have the other half doing a 33% water change now as she's been having to shake the ranchu and oranda off the filter and ornaments for the past couple of hours.

Anything else I can get her to do before I get home and can test water readings? Or are they gonners at this stage?

Guessing the Oodinol is raising copper levels too high for them or something?

Sleepy

Just got home, the ranchu keeps getting stuck on the filter... the oranda seems to have livened up a little since the water change and the poor common's tail is in tatters

I've added back in the old filter but left it a little high to create surface bubbles by cascading water down into the surface.

Pics of the three fish attached.

Will be very surprised if the Ranchu makes it through the night, keep having to swish water towards him to get him off the filter and swimming again.

Silverfish

Jaysus, they're a bit poorly alright.

I have an oranda currently in the death throes at the moment, she keeps getting caught on the filter as well and is unable to swim off it, I clipped a white filter sponge over the intake so it has less pull.

That looks like whitespot alright, I've never had it so I've never had to treat it, but I'll just go check my big book of fish diseases.

Sleepy

Still wondering how the hell it got into the tank unless it came with one of the fish from the shop... stunned at how the common's tail responded when I added the Oodinol. It was spotty before I added it but has just gone to pieces since...

Should I continue the treatment? The ranchu and oranda were both fine til I put it in the tank. If I'd a second tank, I'd separate them and treat the common but that's not an option...

Also, should I add back in the carbon filter media or not?

Just when I thought I had the water quality sorted, the fish get diseases...

Silverfish

Right, whitespot is a parasite, so it has a lifecycle.

To shorten the lifecycle, you'll need to raise the temp of your tank to 25/26 degrees (mine sits at that normally, probably why I haven't had whitespot yet)

This reduces the lifespan of the parasite, so when you medicate, you'll catch it at all it's life stages.

Going through the med press here, and what I have is the Interpet Whitespot treatment, which will work, but if the fish have already had a dose of oodinol, then I wouldn't add anything more, however oodinol is for Velvet, which is similar, but not what your fish seem to have from the pics.

The best treatments for whitespot are Interpet #6 Anti WhiteSpot Plus and eSHa Exit.

Is the oodinol a once off treatment, or is there a course?

So what I'd do if I was you is raise the tank temperature if you can in the meantime, that'll start killing off the parasites, and then see where you go from there.

Sleepy

It's 3 day's of dosage... then add back in the filter medium and change carbon filter medium after 2 more days.

Reluctant to continue treatment though as I've already had to dilute it heavily with a partial water change and it seems to have done far more damage than good to the fish.

Will get whitespot treatment tomorrow (unless anywhere is open at this hour?!) and begin heating the tank tonight.

Silverfish

Sleepy wrote: »

Still wondering how the hell it got into the tank unless it came with one of the fish from the shop... stunned at how the common's tail responded when I added the Oodinol. It was spotty before I added it but has just gone to pieces since...

Should I continue the treatment? The ranchu and oranda were both fine til I put it in the tank. If I'd a second tank, I'd separate them and treat the common but that's not an option...

Also, should I add back in the carbon filter media or not?

Just when I thought I had the water quality sorted, the fish get diseases...

Oh right, if they suddenly went like this after the treatment, yes, do a 50% water change (or 25% if you've already done 30%) and add back in the carbon, that will filter out the medication within 24 hours.

You won't need to add anything for at least another 24 hours anyway, but the bad news is sometimes medication can push a sick fish over the edge.

So do the water change, increase the temp, put in the carbon, keep the bubbles going and see how they are tomorrow.

Sleepy

OK, heater added... instructions say it'll be close to 24 hours before it's fully up to temp... will 26 degrees not hurt goldfish though?

Re-added the carbon media to filter out the Oodinol 1000 and will get new media tomorrow along with the white spot treatment.

Bubbles seem to be helping a little though the ranchu is struggling against currents still. Oranda's looking lazy at the bottom. Fed them and he seemed to fight for his share though (they were fasting yesterday). Left the light on for a bit to encourage movement.

Sleepy

Will change some more water so... O/H filled up the bottles again after earlier change so while not quite up to room temp, it shouldn't be far off. Will change that out now.

Silverfish

I'd bring it up to 25 degrees, mine live at that.

Fancy goldfish, such as orandas and ranchus, prefer warmer water, between 18 to 25 degrees, commons like it a bit colder, but to tackle the whitespot the temp raise is needed, provided it's slow and not immediate, so over 24 hrs should be grand.

I know I mentioned the Interpet treatment and eSha treatments above but there's also a King British WS3 whitespot treatment that's supposed to be pretty good.

Sleepy

Know if Petstop in Blanch have any of them? It's the only place I'll be able to get to at Lunch and everywhere will be closed by the time I get off work. Don't see any treatments for white spot on their website but would be surprised if they didn't have anything for it...

Can goldfish repair their fins when damaged? Poor Dory's tail is in an awful state

Silverfish

Sleepy wrote: »

Know if Petstop in Blanch have any of them? It's the only place I'll be able to get to at Lunch and everywhere will be closed by the time I get off work. Don't see any treatments for white spot on their website but would be surprised if they didn't have anything for it...

Can goldfish repair their fins when damaged? Poor Dory's tail is in an awful state

Yup, as long as the spines aren't damaged, they repair really fast.

Usually a while after a whitespot or other treatment, it's a good idea to treat with Pimafix and Melafix, they're nice gentle treatments to clear up any secondary infections.

Sleepy

Well, all 3 were still alive this morning which was a nice surprise. Will be this evening before I can begin treatment though so fingers crossed.

Sleepy

Got the eSHa EXIT treatment and have dosed the tank according to the guidelines. The two fancies were apparently displaying signs of swimbladder all day (having trouble swimming, floating near the surface upside-down). Haven't fed them today and going to leave them another day or two before feeding peas as you recommended before.

Was disappointed the PetStop didn't have eSHa 2000 as it's recommended as safe to dose with the EXIT and these fish are really in a bad way, the poor common has had about a quarter of his tail waste away and seems to have other skin lesions besides just the white spot.

The bottle says to treat for 3 days but everything I've seen on-line seems to suggest *much* longer treatments (i.e. 14 days or so)?

Silverfish

Sounds like there's a few things going on there.

You've started the treatment now, so do the 3 days anyway, you might need a 2nd dose later but I'd leave it at least a week between them.

Don't worry too much about the tail and skin just yet, the esha will help that and once the treatment is finished, do a water change and you can treat for that then, sounds like it's secondary to the whitespot.

Sleepy

Yep, would be great to get all this added to my posts in the pics thread as a "Why you should have a perfectly cycled tank before adding fish thread". My ignorance around this has caused some pretty cruel trial and error and I'm pretty upset about it tbh.

Silverfish

Sleepy wrote: »

Yep, would be great to get all this added to my posts in the pics thread as a "Why you should have a perfectly cycled tank before adding fish thread". My ignorance around this has caused some pretty cruel trial and error and I'm pretty upset about it tbh.

Well, I've made the same mistakes, I had to do a fish-in cycle on my big tank, both fish came through it okay but one just was never right afterwards, but he was deformed from when we got him. The other was fine and is growing huge - grew 6 inches in about 5 months.

I bought two orandas, and did everything perfectly, one keeled over dead a week after I got it, the other had nothing but problems.

I've two ranchus that are pretty much bombproof.

Every time you buy a fish, it's a lottery. Could be healthy, could be sick, could be a weak fish, could have genetic problems.

Sleepy

What's really upsetting me is the state poor Dory (the common goldfish) is in. We've had him for 3 years at this stage and out little fella is very attached to him. Especially considering the conditions he survived in when I knew absolutely nothing about fish keeping. As soon as I start him in decent conditions the new fish infect him and he's n tatters.

Silverfish

Sleepy wrote: »

What's really upsetting me is the state poor Dory (the common goldfish) is in. We've had him for 3 years at this stage and out little fella is very attached to him. Especially considering the conditions he survived in when I knew absolutely nothing about fish keeping. As soon as I start him in decent conditions the new fish infect him and he's n tatters.

Yeah, really, new fish need to be quarantined for a few weeks, because god knows what they have.
My dad has a goldfish for 8 years now, in a tiny plastic uncycled unfiltered bowl, but he's afraid to change anything in case it kills him, cos whatever he's doing is working for him.

...have you space to start digging a pond?

Sleepy

Unfortunately not with proper conditions... don't want the poor fella to go through all of this and then get eaten by a neighbourhood cat / a bird...

Silverfish

Here's a handy article on whitespot (or ich) that covers all the bases.


And some caresheets for various types of goldfish.

It also recommends heating the water to 30 degrees for whitespot, but Dory will not like that, so 20-25 degrees would be more than enough.

Sleepy

Nice articles, thanks.

Have a heater warming to 25 degrees while treating. The fish are all alive but none of them are looking good (lots of lazing at the bottom / the Ranchu keeps sticking to the filter / further fin deterioration on the common / all 3 riddled with spots).

Aerating with an old filter that I have creating a cascade into the surface.

Thinking of simply continuing treatment until all spots are gone rather than the straightforward 3 day treatment?

Sleepy

Still not looking right but a damn sight better than yesterday. Dory is opening her fins and swimming around normally, Daisy's trying to snap at Dory's tail and Marlin has been away from the filter all day.

Continued the medication and did a 17% water change. Ran the tests but would expect them to be out since the medication is altering the water colour and all the tests work off colour...

Results were as follows:

PH - 8
Ammonia - Trace
Nitrate - 5-10
Nitrite 0.2 (a little high bus assuming related to the meds)

Caved on the fish's diet and fed them a pellet each in an attempt to stop Daisy from trying to eat Dory (who's ten times her size!)

Silverfish

Some good news at least!

Did you add back in the quota of medication you would have removed with the water change?

Was reading the eSha leaflet for Exit there, it says you can do a prolonged dosage for 5 days, might be worth doing that, esp if you've the temperature raised, that should get rid of it. Also it says not to use water conditioners with it either, I found that to be a pain before, cos our water comes from the tap.
eSha themselves recommend filling the bucket / whatever with a showerhead to dissipate the chlorine.

Some medications can give false positives for tests, so you can't really trust the results with medicated water.

norrie rugger

I keep clown loaches in my community tank, which are very prone to ich.
Do not worry if the first treatment does not work. Can take a second dose.

The only thing that I do know is that you gotta raise the temp as high as you can.

Sleepy

Thought as much, though I'd expect Nitrates to rise a little due to having to remove the carbon filters...

Yup, remembered to retreat for the volume changed out. I did, however, continue to use dechlorinater for the water change... will try the shower trick for tomorrow's water change.

Planning a second treatment at least as there's clearly a complete infestation of whitespot in the tank. Trying to get get my hands on eSHA 2000 to help with other infections too...

fred funk }{

Sleepy wrote: »

Still not looking right but a damn sight better than yesterday. Dory is opening her fins and swimming around normally, Daisy's trying to snap at Dory's tail and Marlin has been away from the filter all day.

Continued the medication and did a 17% water change. Ran the tests but would expect them to be out since the medication is altering the water colour and all the tests work off colour...

Results were as follows:

PH - 8
Ammonia - Trace
Nitrate - 5-10
Nitrite 0.2 (a little high bus assuming related to the meds)

Caved on the fish's diet and fed them a pellet each in an attempt to stop Daisy from trying to eat Dory (who's ten times her size!)

Hi sleepy.

You should have 0 ammonia and 0 Nitrite, these are the bad ones that cause fish to die. I wouldn't worry about the Nitrate as this is harmless unless in high doses.

I would definitely not feed them a thing as any food you ad to the tank is making the water problem worse and remember fish aren't like humans and don't need to eat like we do. So a flake or two every three days is enough.

Alot of fish sickness is caused when fish get stressed and their immune system is down because of it. Alot of the diseases fish get are there all the time but only take hold when the fishes defenses are down.

Silverfish

Fred's completely right there, I forgot your tank was newly cycled or still cycling.

What were the results before putting the exit in?

Sleepy

Last result before EXIT was added were:

PH - 8
Ammonia - 0
Nitrate - 5
Nitrite <0.01 (lowest score on the test kit I have).

Which look pretty good to me?

fred funk }{

Sleepy wrote: »

Last result before EXIT was added were:

PH - 8
Ammonia - 0
Nitrate - 5
Nitrite <0.01 (lowest score on the test kit I have).

Which look pretty good to me?

What you're looking for is the Nitrite to drop and the nitrate to rise, this proves the tank is cycling properly. So a Nitrate rise is a good thing. Good luck.

Sleepy

All still alive but still looking quite poorly.

Oranda keeps biting bits off the common and Ranchu's tails. Getting quite aggresive, half tempted to buy a bowl as a "bold step" for it!

Continued medication and another 18% water change. Common Goldfish is getting black spots / patches... a reaction to the medication? another infection? or a "scale tan" from the 25 degree water?

Just did a google and it seems like it could be a good sign? scar tissue / healing?

Silverfish

Black spots can be a sign of ammonia poisoning usually, however, it says here

it is the sign of healing from injury caused by ammonia, rough handling, low pH, skin flukes or goldfish ick, and can appear on the skin or fins.

ick is whitespot. So maybe he's healing up, ick can leave open wounds on the skin where the spots fall off.

If the oranda is attacking the tails of the other fish, you might need to get a tank divider, some fish just take against other fish.

My fantail will attack and kill other fish, he's done in two so far, sometimes he gets aggressive with the ranchus and we have to separate them. (I use a new grill my bf bought for his barbecue)


Sometimes it's due to the fish feeling crowded, I've just bought a 300L tank to set up for mine in the hope it stops him getting territorial.

Sleepy

I'd heard before that fish will attack another fish if it's carrying a disease... the Oranda seems to be the healthiest of them and was wondering if that was what's causing it.

Sleepy

Just improvised a temporary second tank for the Oranda. Currently swimming around in a 14 inch by 8 inch 6 inch deep tupperware container with a wire cooling rack as a lid to stop her from jumping out. Took 50% of the water from the main tank and some substrate along with 50% new water which I also treated with EXIT.

Off to adverts etc. to find a second tank I think... really, really can't afford it though.

Silverfish

Sleepy wrote: »

Just improvised a temporary second tank for the Oranda. Currently swimming around in a 14 inch by 8 inch 6 inch deep tupperware container with a wire cooling rack as a lid to stop her from jumping out. Took 50% of the water from the main tank and some substrate along with 50% new water which I also treated with EXIT.

Off to adverts etc. to find a second tank I think... really, really can't afford it though.

A divider would be much, much cheaper!

Sleepy

Cool, will have a look for one tomorrow.

Sleepy

Got my hands on a second tank, only a 20l but the Oranda's still only about 1.5 inches long so it'll do until I can get something more apropriate... filled 75% with water taken out of the main tank and filter sponge from main tank squeezed in the water.

The Ranchu finally succumbed to his injuries from the Oranda this morning.

Silverfish

Aw no way. Sorry to hear that.

With the spare tank tho I'd recommend cutting a small bit of the sponge from the other tank and putting it in, sometimes a squeezing isn't enough to quick cycle the tank.

How's the common doing?

Sleepy

Looking a lot healthier, especially since I got the eSHa 2000 yesterday. scales and fins are recovering, white spots going (but not fully gone, going to continue treatment another few days).

fred funk }{

Silverfish wrote: »

Aw no way. Sorry to hear that.

With the spare tank tho I'd recommend cutting a small bit of the sponge from the other tank and putting it in, sometimes a squeezing isn't enough to quick cycle the tank.

How's the common doing?

Yes I agree. Also, remember that alot of the bacteria live in the gravel too so it would be worth while transferring some gravel as well.

Sleepy

didn't want to move gravel as they're different colours so I moved one of the ornaments into the new tank to get it going.

Sleepy

Update: White spot is all gone, the common goldfish is thriving since adding the eSHa 2000. Looking much better, fins are healing nicely and the black patches are receding or completely gone. I think the Oranda got some of the spines from the top part of her tail though, so no idea if it'll ever get back to it's former glory.

Got perfectly clear tests tonight too... well, Nitrate at 5 but that's fairly normal considering carbon media was out of filter. Added the carbon filter media back. Hoping this means the tank is cycled now.

The oranda is swimming along perfectly happy in the new tank. Doing 25% water changes on it every day til it cycles.

Silverfish

That's great news!

My nitrates are normally in the region of 20, as long as they don't go over 40 you're ok.