Politically Incorrect Gyms....

Reggy

Hi all,

I am currently a member in Ben Dunne's fine establishment in Lucan and am absolutely fed up of it. Let me say that in no way do i think it is a bad gym, the staff are really nice and helpful and the equipment is extremely well maintained.

However I am absolutely sick to death of the watch our back because of insurance issues, "you cant do that exercise in here" type attitude of these places.

What I mean is, there tends to be no insurance issue regarding the person who comes in and watches home and away on the treadmill, with their laces open but when I so much as move a matt from the designated area, do some hanging leg raises, ice cream makers or attempt to squat on a swiss ball (without weight and with a spotting partner I might add), it is deemed too dangerous.

I have a very good level of strength and fitness, and alot of my workouts involve advanced core stability techniques, explosive/functional training and sessions with my own olympic rings. Many of these exercises are frowned upon and it seems the only people catered for are bodybuilders doing single movement presses and those trying to loose a bit of weight by reading heat magazine (somebody explain the science behind that).

My question is, is there any facility in Dublin (within a reasonable distance to Lucan) where functional training is the norm? I want to train in an environment where I dont see bulbous freaks injecting themselves in the locker rooms, or others sitting on machines, taking rest periods of 5 and ten minutes between sets. www.gymjones.com (those who brought us the bodyweight 300) hit the nail on the head with their set up: "Gym Jones is not a cozy place. There are no televisions, no machines, no comfortable spot to sit (just plywood and diamond-plate), and there are no mirrors. The training is difficult. There are no shortcuts". I cant help but wonder if there is a place in dublin with a similar attitude to training? Im not looking for an over the top, hardcore inyerface environment like that, just something different.

Suggestions?

itsallaboutheL

Crossfit.

dave80

Reggy wrote: »

Hi all,

I am currently a member in Ben Dunne's fine establishment in Lucan and am absolutely fed up of it. Let me say that in no way do i think it is a bad gym, the staff are really nice and helpful and the equipment is extremely well maintained.

However I am absolutely sick to death of the watch our back because of insurance issues, "you cant do that exercise in here" type attitude of these places.

What I mean is, there tends to be no insurance issue regarding the person who comes in and watches home and away on the treadmill, with their laces open but when I so much as move a matt from the designated area, do some hanging leg raises, ice cream makers or attempt to squat on a swiss ball (without weight and with a spotting partner I might add), it is deemed too dangerous.

I have a very good level of strength and fitness, and alot of my workouts involve advanced core stability techniques, explosive/functional training and sessions with my own olympic rings. Many of these exercises are frowned upon and it seems the only people catered for are bodybuilders doing single movement presses and those trying to loose a bit of weight by reading heat magazine (somebody explain the science behind that).

My question is, is there any facility in Dublin (within a reasonable distance to Lucan) where functional training is the norm? I want to train in an environment where I dont see bulbous freaks injecting themselves in the locker rooms, or others sitting on machines, taking rest periods of 5 and ten minutes between sets. www.gymjones.com (those who brought us the bodyweight 300) hit the nail on the head with their set up: "Gym Jones is not a cozy place. There are no televisions, no machines, no comfortable spot to sit (just plywood and diamond-plate), and there are no mirrors. The training is difficult. There are no shortcuts". I cant help but wonder if there is a place in dublin with a similar attitude to training? Im not looking for an over the top, hardcore inyerface environment like that, just something different.

Suggestions?

Start ur own gym cause there not many places where you won't see some of the above

Hercs and raw prob ur best bet

Ps why squat on swiss ball?

Remmy

You make ice cream for people whille squatting on a swissball?now that sounds functional.:D

Teyla Emmagan

Do you mean 'politically correct'?!

itsallaboutheL

dave80 wrote: »

Hercs and raw prob ur best bet

Probably not.

dave80

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Probably not.

Why not, turn up at hercs and squat on swiss ball and u won't be told to stop.... laught at tho

SanoVitae

Reggy wrote: »

squat on a swiss ball (without weight and with a spotting partner I might add)

That's only functional if you are training to be a clown at a circus....

Mellor

dave80 wrote: »

Why not, turn up at hercs and squat on swiss ball and u won't be told to stop.... laught at tho

It's not near Lucan for a start

dave80

Mellor wrote: »

It's not near Lucan for a start

It's the the closest gym where he:rolleyes:'ll get away wit his crazy workouts

desertcircus

Purely on a language point: health and safety rules have nothing whatsoever to do with political correctness. One is about imperfect rules designed to minimise the risk of injury; the other is about trying not to be grossly offensive to people for no good reason.

On your question, though: it's questionable whether there's a concentrated enough market for a gym like the one you describe to be a going concern. A huge proportion of gym income is derived from people who want the features you're not interested in...

Reggy

SanoVitae wrote: »

That's only functional if you are training to be a clown at a circus....

I knew I'd get hammered for that one. as I said, I have a spotting partner and its not like Im using a barbell on top of the swiss ball. Its not for building brute strength, its more for improving concentration, balance, core stability and foot work, what harm is there in that? there seems to be more smarmy replies here than people actually willing to answer the OP? thanks to those who have........

Hanley

WTF is 'functional training'?

grimloch

Hanley wrote: »

WTF is 'functional training'?

The training protocols of smug jackasses who sneer at isolation movements.

Remmy

grimloch wrote: »

The training protocols of smug jackasses who sneer at isolation movements.

Thats 90% of what I got from the op.

Kev M

As previously said, and it's the only answer you needed, Crossfit.

And 'functional training' LOLOLOL... those 'bulbous freaks' can't even balance on the big bouncy balls. Goddamn.

Reggy

No sneering going on here guys, really. I do as much isolated movements as the next, all Im saying is that I have incorporated exercises from other disciplines like gymnastics. I get why alot of people would have a contention with the term 'functional training' and I guess that is the wrong description for what is essentially just a mixture of plyometric circuits and balance training. In terms of what functional actually means, i guess that is person dependant, for someone like me who plays gaelic football and soccer, the training I do is tailored to optimise my strength and speed and balance in those particular sports. fair enough? apologies if I came across 'sneery' or whatever, just looking for suggestions for a place to train where i wont get chastised for doing something different. nowt wrong with that is there?

Reggy

Crossfit would be great, but its a little bit far from where I live tbh....

itsallaboutheL

Reggy wrote: »

Crossfit would be great, but its a little bit far from where I live tbh....

Crossfit Ireland
Crossfit Dublin
Crossfit North Dublin/ Performance Therapy Ireland

That last place looks fucking class, i'd actually train there.

Hanley

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

That last place looks fucking class, i'd actually train there.

That's just because they have jerk boxes.

G86

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Crossfit Ireland
Crossfit Dublin
Crossfit North Dublin/ Performance Therapy Ireland

That last place looks fucking class, i'd actually train there.

So that's D4, D18, and Fingal? The OP is in Lucan.

There's the Atlas Gym in Clondalkin OP, that might be worth a look?

itsallaboutheL

G86 wrote: »

So that's D4, D18, and Fingal? The OP is in Lucan.

So he can travel a bit. I fail to see the problem.

Hanley

G86 wrote: »

So that's D4, D18, and Fingal? The OP is in Lucan.

There's the Atlas Gym in Clondalkin OP, that might be worth a look?

So you're giving out to the guy who's not from Dublin for offering suggestions as to the very few places in Dublin that would actually cater for the OPs needs?

G86

Hanley wrote: »

So you're giving out to the guy who's not from Dublin for offering suggestions as to the very few places in Dublin that would actually cater for the OPs needs?

The OP asked for locations near Lucan. I pointed out that the suggested locations aren't near Lucan.

I don't recall giving out to anyone.

Hanley

G86 wrote: »

The OP asked for locations near Lucan. I pointed out that the suggested locations aren't near Lucan.

I don't recall giving out to anyone.

Ok, well then, OP, there's nothing near Lucan. Hard luck.

d'Oracle

G86 wrote: »

So that's D4,

Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown.

G86

OP, no matter where you train you're going to run into people who have different views/opinions/directions in training and unfortunately some that are only to happy to interrupt your workout with them. TBH, it's unlikely you're going to find many places that will accomodate the kind of training you've described, at least not without a few stares thrown in your direction. I saw a guy in my gym today doing that kind of stuff, and I found myself looking at him wondering what the hell he was at, but it was more out of curiosity than anything else.

As posted, crossfit would probably work for you, but then that's class based, and you seem to have your own style of training/programming that you follow already. Also, all the boxes are a bit out of your way. I think you should just look for a smaller less commercial gym and work away on your own there, you'll get away with a lot more and generally be left to yourself in most places like that.

itsallaboutheL

G86 wrote: »

As posted, crossfit would probably work for you, but then that's class based, and you seem to have your own style of training/programming that you follow already. Also, all the boxes are a bit out of your way. I think you should just look for a smaller less commercial gym and work away on your own there, you'll get away with a lot more and generally be left to yourself in most places like that.

Crossfit North Dublin do open gym sessions.:P

Rossin

100-120e a month just to use a gym! you'd want to be doing the classes!

SanoVitae

OP - why don't you build your own garage gym ala Ross Enamait. See www.rosstraining.com.

He pitches it as "the premier site for functional strength and conditioning" so I believe it would be perfect for you and your training partner. He's an absolute beast too - so great tips to get from the site.

LightningBolt

Try Liffey Valley Fitness. It's on the Coldcut Road directly opposite B&Q in Liffey Valley Retail Park. Massive gym (haven't been in the place in over a year so can't comment on what it's currently like) but you should check it out.

Edit: Atlas Gym isn't great space wise so I doubt you'd have a lot of space required to do the exercises you're looking at.

Mellor

Reggy wrote: »

I knew I'd get hammered for that one. as I said, I have a spotting partner and its not like Im using a barbell on top of the swiss ball. Its not for building brute strength, its more for improving concentration, balance, core stability and foot work, what harm is there in that?

If that what you intentions are, then fair enough. But can you tell me how it does that?

Concentration - I don't think so. Just because you ahve to concentrate doesn't mesn it'll improve it.
Core stability - You need a pretty stable core to do 1.5x-2x BW squats. Prob a better way to improve.
Balance - I'd say it would help there.
Foot work - I imagine your feet are pretty static, something like skipping or boxing would be better.

By the way, as you using a swiss ball or a bosu ball?
Swiss ball
Bosu Ball

LightningBolt wrote: »

Try Liffey Valley Fitness. It's on the Coldcut Road directly opposite B&Q in Liffey Valley Retail Park. Massive gym (haven't been in the place in over a year so can't comment on what it's currently like) but you should check it out.

Edit: Atlas Gym isn't great space wise so I doubt you'd have a lot of space required to do the exercises you're looking at.

Liffey valley isn't a big gym, there's a big cardio area, and machine area but the free weights area is nothing out of the ordinary.
More importantly, it isn't suitable for the OP to do his kind of stuff adn is exactly the kind of gym he complained about in the OP.




If you really want to do swiss ball squats and the like, just by a swiss ball and do it at home. Keep the gym for gettign stronger

Reggy

Thanks for all suggestions folks!

Jeeze, I never thought that one exercise would create such a storm, @Mellor, I use a swiss ball. I find the exercise forces me to brace my core and thigh muscles like crazy. as regards my feet, they are positioned in the one position but with the ball shifting underneath me, my centre of gravity keeps shifting and the effort involved is here - where I must adjust myself accordingly in order to stop myself from falling off, and if I do, my training partner is in a position to stabilise me. Once I had mastered squatting on 2 balance discs, I moved on to using the swiss ball instead.

Again, whether or not you guys think its a b*llsh1t exercise is besides the point, it definitely works for me and has turned a once tall/awkward footballer, into a different player in possession of the ball.

As regards travelling, thats not a major issue, I just dont want to have to be getting myself in traffic as I train after work. Anybody use Atlas in Clondalkin? Is it any good?

The reason I want out of my current gym is that it is far too restricted, and yes you definintely get what you pay for. Its very hard to train in a place when you can only do clean and jerk's on a sunday morning because there is no designated area. Or when you do a circuit with more than two pieces of equipment, other gym users come and take your equipment without asking if u are using it. And before I get smashed again, yes my c&j form is safe and I DO NOT monopolise equipment. OH, and not to mention, you are not allowed to bring in your own equip. We have been told we can only use the equipment supplied by the gym. So what 'CRAZY' pieces of equipment were you using to prompt this Reggy? thats right, resistance bands, and steps. yes, steps.

My training partner was told that he could NOT bring in his own step, but the gym did not supply any of their own steps. we protested and steps were supplied by the gym the following week so fair play to them.

BJJRevSS

You could also check out http://www.combatworkshopdublin.com/

Its based in D6 and would seem to cater for what you have posted in this thread, but might be too far of a trek!

Timetable:
Mainstream: Mon to Thurs 7-8 / Fri 6-7 / Sat 12-1
Fundamentals: Mon & Wed 8-9
Membership ranges based on the numbers of classes you want to do, but unlimited monthly membership is €90.

Mellor

Reggy wrote: »

@Mellor, I use a swiss ball. I find the exercise forces me to brace my core and thigh muscles like crazy. as regards my feet, they are positioned in the one position but with the ball shifting underneath me, my centre of gravity keeps shifting and the effort involved is here -

Nobody is failing to understand what you suggest is happening.
But just because something is very hard, doesn't mean its of great benefit.
I'm not saying there is no benefit, you'll likely get a bit better in those areas, but training each one directly would achieve great overaqll results.

The only things that will really improve is your ability to stand on swiss balls.

Hanley

When did ‘specific adaptation to imposed demands’ become ‘conditional adaptation to something loosely related’?

Ask people what the primary improvement to come from squatting is - it’ll be you get better at squatting with partial carryover to similar movement patterns. That is, running and jumping.

What’s standing on a swiss ball achieve? You get better at standing on a swiss ball. The angles, joint mechanics and surface in no way resemble anything that would logically have a carryover effect towards football or any other sport. Plus the data isn’t there to support it when it comes to core activation or injury prevention.

Thing is tho, if you’ve convinced yourself it’s worked for you, even tho technically it hasn’t. Then it probably has helped you. Just don’t try to convince anyone that the effect is anything but mental.

Another place you could try using is Universal Warrior on the Ballyboggan Road. They’re pretty liberal in there when it comes to training methodologies and I’d imagine they’d let you bring your own gear in. Expect a few funny looks until they get used to ya. Bit of a trek too tho.

Reggy

Here is the rationale behind the exercise chaps. Can I just say, I dont personally feel that said exercise can offer anywhere near the strength gains as would squatting/compound lifts. But I certainly feel that the percieved improvements in my performance as a result of this exercise are not just in my head.

"The advantage of an unstable training environment would be based on
the importance of neuromuscular adaptations with increases in strength. Strength gains can be attributed to both increases in muscle cross-sectional area and improvements in neuromuscular coordination"

"The inherently greater instability of an unstable platform and body interface should challenge the neuromuscular system to a greater extent than under stable conditions, possibly enhancing strength gains attributed to neural adaptations. Base or platform instability can be induced by sitting, lying, kneeling, or standing on balls (i.e., Swiss balls or Physio Balls), ‘‘Dyna-Discs’’ (rubberized inflated discs), wobble and rocker boards, foam rollers, low-density mats, and other similar devices. Instability can also be produced with unstable loads, such as partially filled containers of water or sand, and flexible tubing".

There is more detail in this article and if you are interested, the article is in The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 2006, 20(3), 716–722. Certainly, the jury still remains out on this type of training and Hanley you are correct, it may not necessarily transfer itself to a particular field sport, unless the playing field is in fact a bouncy castle, but at a gangly 6'4, im willing to try anything that improves my coordination. I almost wish I hadnt brought it up!!!!:)

gymsoldier

G86 wrote: »

There's the Atlas Gym in Clondalkin OP, that might be worth a look?

Was in there once, and heard their slogan multiple times in the space of one hour: "real drugs, real bodybuilding"

Dathai

Swiss ball squats on drugs!! Sounds like an awesome idea

cc87

Reggy wrote: »

"The advantage of an unstable training environment would be based on
the importance of neuromuscular adaptations with increases in strength. Strength gains can be attributed to both increases in muscle cross-sectional area and improvements in neuromuscular coordination"

"The inherently greater instability of an unstable platform and body interface should challenge the neuromuscular system to a greater extent than under stable conditions, possibly enhancing strength gains attributed to neural adaptations. Base or platform instability can be induced by sitting, lying, kneeling, or standing on balls (i.e., Swiss balls or Physio Balls), ‘‘Dyna-Discs’’ (rubberized inflated discs), wobble and rocker boards, foam rollers, low-density mats, and other similar devices. Instability can also be produced with unstable loads, such as partially filled containers of water or sand, and flexible tubing".

There is more detail in this article and if you are interested, the article is in The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 2006, 20(3), 716–722. Certainly, the jury still remains out on this type of training and Hanley you are correct, it may not necessarily transfer itself to a particular field sport, unless the playing field is in fact a bouncy castle, but at a gangly 6'4, im willing to try anything that improves my coordination. I almost wish I hadnt brought it up!!!!:)

Not really conclusive in any way really is it
Change a few words and this could be applied to any exercise

Reggy

cc87 wrote: »

Not really conclusive in any way really is it
Change a few words and this could be applied to any exercise

Did you read the full paper? Never said it was conclusive, it certainly asks more questions than it answers but there is some data out there backing up why I personally do it. Earlier posts suggested it is only useful for smug jackasses "training to be a clown in the circus".

The study I suggested you read was a meta analysis so generally these types of studies do not attempt to prove/disprove theories, rather they are a collection of data from previous/similar research. One of the papers that the above is based on is:

ANDERSON, K., AND D.G. BEHM. Trunk muscle activity increases with unstable squat movements. Can. J. Appl. Physiol. 30:
33–45. 2005

Satanta

I remember seeing videos of Jonah Lomu doing dumbell squats on a swiss ball. I wouldn't disregard this type of training at all for developing core strength and stability. I say of it is working for you then fair play.

jive

Satanta wrote: »

I remember seeing videos of Jonah Lomu doing dumbell squats on a swiss ball. I wouldn't disregard this type of training at all for developing core strength and stability. I say of it is working for you then fair play.

Do dumbbell squats on swiss ball

become

Personally I don't think the risk of injury is worth the benefits of standing on a swiss ball like a stool pigeon. As far as football goes balance isn't all that important. I've never heard anyone being criticised for lack of balance. If you think it helps you a lot and/or has a placebo effect then go nuts. IMO I wouldn't advice anyone to get up on a swiss ball as you are running a high risk of falling off and busting yourself regardless of how good you are at it or how many spotters you have, especially if you add weights to the mixture. Like Hanley said, standing on a swiss ball simply gets you better at standing on a swiss ball. A football pitch is solid earth. If you want to help balance on a football pitch then get a few friends to run into you full pelt and try to stay on your feet :pac:

If you really want to do it and no gyms near by will allow it then I'd just suggest buying a swiss ball. Just do it at home before your workout or after your workout. I can't imagine swiss balls cost anything more than €20.

Hanley

Satanta wrote: »

I remember seeing videos of Jonah Lomu doing dumbell squats on a swiss ball. I wouldn't disregard this type of training at all for developing core strength and stability. I say of it is working for you then fair play.

You saw a snap shot of his training. It's indicative of absolutely nothing. It could have been for the camera, it could have been a laugh to see how many people would copy him etc etc...

Satanta

Hanley wrote: »

You saw a snap shot of his training. It's indicative of absolutely nothing. It could have been for the camera, it could have been a laugh to see how many people would copy him etc etc...

From http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/jonah-lomu-rugby-star-interview.htm

Q: I remember seeing a video of your training a while back where you were squatting on top of a Swiss ball with a 100lb dumbbell. Do you still do that kind of thing?
dot

A: Yea, I still do those. I actually do some exercises now with 3 Swiss balls at the same time. I do my bench presses on there, and that really helps me keep my core strong.

As you know for rugby, I don't want my core dropping out on me during a game when I have to change direction at speed.

g'em

Satanta wrote: »

From http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/jonah-lomu-rugby-star-interview.htm

As you know for rugby, I don't want my core dropping out on me during a game when I have to change direction at speed.

That... that makes no sense... I now have visions of Jonah Lomu's abs coming out of his... well a southward facing orifice.

And 3 Swiss Balls at the same time? That has to be a wind-up surely

Reggy

Just because Lomu did it doesnt mean it is correct. I think the contention here is that somewhere along the line (even though the original post was on a completely different topic) people seem to think I am suggesting this 'crazy' method of training in favour of regular compound lifting scenarios. You can bet that Jonah's training consisted mostly of heavy lifting on stable surfaces, and combined with superhuman genetics, thats the reason he is such a talented athlete. However, perhaps he engaged in the unstable training for the same reasons I do?

He said he did it for core stability. Sure, for core stability he could have done a front squat or any number of other exercises, but if these quotes are to be believed, obviously he felt there was some benefit to incorporating some unstable resistance training as well?

I have already posted this citation but I will post it again because earlier posts stated that there was little or no research backing this type of training up in terms of benefit for core stability. if you couldnt be arsed reading it, or dont have access, simply read the text in bold ANDERSON, K., AND D.G. BEHM. Trunk muscle activity increases with unstable squat movements. Can. J. Appl. Physiol. 30:33–45. 2005

Satanta said: "Personally I don't think the risk of injury is worth the benefits of standing on a swiss ball like a stool pigeon". First of, I dont just stand up on it and start flexing, I do a couple of slow, controlled bodyweight squats. and how about this: "the rehabilitation literature has reported the successful application of balance training to reduce the incidence of ankle sprains in a group of volleyball players (53). This decrease in ankle injury incidence may be related to the improved discrimination of ankle inversion movements found with wobble board training (55). (from Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 2006, 20(3), 716–722). So to take your suggestion that I get my friends to run at me on a pitch and try and stay on my feet, I think that may be slightly more crazy in terms of risk of injury. The risk of injury squatting on a swiss ball is little or none. I have no proof of that other than my own experience: I have never once even had a near miss.

"As far as football goes balance isn't all that important. I've never heard anyone being criticised for lack of balance"..... Well I have mate, maybe you havent played all that much football. In my opinion, which is clearly not worth much, I think balance is one of the most underpracticed and underrated attributes in field sports. Look at Leo Messi, he's hardly a beast of man, but yet, you cant get the ball off him. Maybe that is a bad example because he has sublime feet and speed too, but you literally have to cause GBH to get the lad on the ground.

So you might suggest I am being selective with the studies that I am using to cite my reasons for doing this, well here is one study that examines the benefits (or lack thereof) of a selection of unstable resistance training exercises: Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research: July 2008 - Volume 22 - Issue 4 - pp 1360-1370: "Not All Instability Training Devices Enhance Muscle Activation in Highly Resistance-Trained Individuals"

I dont know why I have to justify my training or be belittled for it. sure the research (like many things in strength and conditioning) is not conclusive, but it works for me. Whether you believe that or not, I really couldnt give a toss. and we'll see who's laughing when Fossett's sign me up on a bumper contract.

Hanley

He said he did it for core stability. Sure, for core stability he could have done a front squat or any number of other exercises, but if these quotes are to be believed, obviously he felt there was some benefit to incorporating some unstable resistance training as well?

The core stability developed in front squats and the likes isn’t always applicable to the type of core stability you need when you’re playing a sport. ‘Squats for core’ is one of my biggest peeves cos it displays a lack of understanding as to what is necessary for sporting performance. Anti rotation is one of the key factors and squatting has no impact on that.

I have already posted this citation but I will post it again because earlier posts stated that there was little or no research backing this type of training up in terms of benefit for core stability. if you couldnt be arsed reading it, or dont have access, simply read the text in bold ANDERSON, K., AND D.G. BEHM. Trunk muscle activity increases with unstable squat movements. Can. J. Appl. Physiol. 30:33–45. 2005

Satanta said: "Personally I don't think the risk of injury is worth the benefits of standing on a swiss ball like a stool pigeon". First of, I dont just stand up on it and start flexing, I do a couple of slow, controlled bodyweight squats. and how about this: "the rehabilitation literature has reported the successful application of balance training to reduce the incidence of ankle sprains in a group of volleyball players (53). This decrease in ankle injury incidence may be related to the improved discrimination of ankle inversion movements found with wobble board training (55). (from Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 2006, 20(3), 716–722).

Do you currently, or have had in the past, an ankle injury? Because that seems to be what the study is talking about. If you don’t, then it’s not applicable.

Did they examine mobility/strength imbalance issues around ones ability to stand on a swiss ball? Maybe it’s the case that the guys with less strength and mobility asymmetries were in the test group and not control. I assume there was a control group?

So to take your suggestion that I get my friends to run at me on a pitch and try and stay on my feet, I think that may be slightly more crazy in terms of risk of injury.

That would be pretty stupid alright!!

The risk of injury squatting on a swiss ball is little or none. I have no proof of that other than my own experience: I have never once even had a near miss.

One miss with a weighted squat on a swiss ball and you’ll potentially f*ck yourself up very badly. When you talk about things in a risk/reward context, it makes no sense to do it - especially for professional atheletes.

"As far as football goes balance isn't all that important. I've never heard anyone being criticised for lack of balance"..... Well I have mate, maybe you havent played all that much football. In my opinion, which is clearly not worth much, I think balance is one of the most underpracticed and underrated attributes in field sports. Look at Leo Messi, he's hardly a beast of man, but yet, you cant get the ball off him. Maybe that is a bad example because he has sublime feet and speed too, but you literally have to cause GBH to get the lad on the ground.

That has absolutely nothing to do with his core stability or squatting on a swiss ball. If anything it implies that it’s something that can be trained without it. Look at any underage premier soccer team and you’ll see some immensely talented youngsters who have developed the balance thru innate ability and natural gifts.

Besides, when do you turn in a football match off two feet perfectly square? People try to pass swiss ball and unstable surface training off as ‘functional’ because it’s unstable and therefore ‘specific’ but it’s not any more specific than a squat because you’re NEVER in that position on the field.

So you might suggest I am being selective with the studies that I am using to cite my reasons for doing this, well here is one study that examines the benefits (or lack thereof) of a selection of unstable resistance training exercises: Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research: July 2008 - Volume 22 - Issue 4 - pp 1360-1370: "Not All Instability Training Devices Enhance Muscle Activation in Highly Resistance-Trained Individuals"

Anything I’ve seen study wise seems to say UST works in a rehab context, but not for healthy individuals. As for its prevalence in the S&C field - you know there’s a lot of coaches doing moronic things that SOUND legit and intuitively would appear to make sense, but when you break it down and think about it, you realize it’s b*llox (eg fat makes you fat etc etc)

Satanta

Reggy wrote: »

Satanta said: "Personally .....

Should read "jive said..."

Reggy

Should read "jive said..."

apologies mate, my bad!!!!

Do you currently, or have had in the past, an ankle injury? Because that seems to be what the study is talking about. If you don’t, then it’s not applicable.

No, I have not, but I have had terrible knee problems and lower back issues. But thats not to say the benefit should be ignored. It was said in a previous post that swiss ball squatting would do nothing for injury prevention. Clerly that is not true. Not to mention it is widely used in sports rehabilitation. Thats all Im saying.

One miss with a weighted squat on a swiss ball and you’ll potentially f*ck yourself up very badly. When you talk about things in a risk/reward context, it makes no sense to do it - especially for professional atheletes.

I have in fairness repeatedly said that I use a spotter, and do NOT use anything other than my body weight. In fairness compared to what alot of other guys in my gym do, it is very safe. How is it dangerous compared to the guy who gets in under a bench press, unspotted and untrained and over estimates his 1rm? But I dont see the gym staff b1tchin' about that?

Did they examine mobility/strength imbalance issues around ones ability to stand on a swiss ball? Maybe it’s the case that the guys with less strength and mobility asymmetries were in the test group and not control. I assume there was a control group?

which study are u referring to???

The Messi example was probably a poor one, givent the fact that Im about a foot taller and significantly different in terms of body type. Any attributes he has are certainly god given (lets not go into the allegation that Barca paid for hormone treatments). Unfortunatley not all of us have similar gifts so the only way I can improve my balance is by practicing it under different conditions. Messi doesnt need to I guess? who knows..... oh an messi doesnt play on the crappy, divoted, sand covered playing surfaces that I do either.

Anything I’ve seen study wise seems to say UST works in a rehab context, but not for healthy individuals.

every single piece of research I have read on this suggests that UST varies from person to person and that more research is required. so why diss the guy who's trying to find out if it works for him? "resistance exercises performed on a Swiss ball or a wobble board (or variations of such equipment) can be used for variety and may reduce the incidence of injuries when combined with other exercise modalities such as plyometrics and running drills". For me if the exercise offers nothing more than a challenge, and an opportunity to try something different, then I feel it is worthwhile doing. If I didnt think it worked then why would I persist in doing it? For show? I have better things to be doing :pac:..... plus I always have DOMS the following couple of days after engaging in it, which suggests to me that it is indeed causing my trunk muscles to work hard.

Hanley

No, I have not, but I have had terrible knee problems and lower back issues. But thats not to say the benefit should be ignored. It was said in a previous post that swiss ball squatting would do nothing for injury prevention. Clerly that is not true. Not to mention it is widely used in sports rehabilitation. Thats all Im saying.

Here comes the mobility-stability-mobility… speech again

I know it’s used widely in a rehab context, not debating that at all. It seems to have the data to back it up like.

I have in fairness repeatedly said that I use a spotter, and do NOT use anything other than my body weight.

Yeah I know, I was talking more about the Jona Lomu example that someone else gave!!

In fairness compared to what alot of other guys in my gym do, it is very safe. How is it dangerous compared to the guy who gets in under a bench press, unspotted and untrained and over estimates his 1rm? But I dont see the gym staff b1tchin' about that?

Agree - I’ve seen a huge amount of idiotic sh*t like that too. Gym staff don’t care tho… I don’t know the legal implications but I’d imagine seeing something like someone squatting on a swiss ball and doing nothing would be deemed gross negligence. Whereas an injury during ‘normal’ training isn’t. Add to the fact that any advice given by an instructor which is subsequently acted upon by a trainee who gets injured, for whatever reason - even if unrelated to the advice, and I can understand why gym staff stay out of it!!

which study are u referring to???

It pretty much applies to all of them… but specifically to the two you mentioned which I quoted!

The Messi example was probably a poor one, givent the fact that Im about a foot taller and significantly different in terms of body type. Any attributes he has are certainly god given (lets not go into the allegation that Barca paid for hormone treatments). Unfortunatley not all of us have similar gifts so the only way I can improve my balance is by practicing it under different conditions. Messi doesnt need to I guess? who knows..... oh an messi doesnt play on the crappy, divoted, sand covered playing surfaces that I do either.

I’m gonna leave this because I don’t think we’ll agree anyway!!

every single piece of research I have read on this suggests that UST varies from person to person and that more research is required. so why diss the guy who's trying to find out if it works for him? "resistance exercises performed on a Swiss ball or a wobble board (or variations of such equipment) can be used for variety and may reduce the incidence of injuries when combined with other exercise modalities such as plyometrics and running drills".

I dunno if you’re talking specifically to me or the other people on this one…

For me if the exercise offers nothing more than a challenge, and an opportunity to try something different, then I feel it is worthwhile doing. If I didnt think it worked then why would I persist in doing it? For show? I have better things to be doing ..... plus I always have DOMS the following couple of days after engaging in it, which suggests to me that it is indeed causing my trunk muscles to work hard.

That just means you’ve asked your core to work in a pattern it hasn’t work in before. No one’s suggesting you don’t think it’s beneficial - people are questioning whether you are right to believe it or not! I could do a set of 50 curls, or walking curls, or something mad like that just to be sore the next day, but it doesn’t mean I’ve gained anything positive from it.