Water meters...and the lies.

CrazyRabbit

Just read this:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0531/water.html

Minister for the Environment Phil Hogan has said the roll out of water meters to homes across Ireland will begin early next year.

Speaking at the National Water Metering Summit at Croke Park, Mr Hogan said consultants are being appointed to examine how the new national water company will operate.
They will report back by October and the establishment of the company will follow, with the 'pay-for-water' scheme getting under way early in 2012.
The Minister said 'it was not merely a taxing measure' but a system that would protect a 'finite resource'.
The Minister also said metering meant that people would only pay for what they use.
He said the plan also provides employment opportunities and makes Ireland more attractive to foreign investors as water supply would be guaranteed.

Am I the only one to think that these 'excuses' for bring in water metering are bullshít? Last time I checked, it rains a lot in Ireland, which produces plenty of fresh water.

And how the hell can an extra tax make Ireland more attractive to investors? And finally, since when do we have water supply issues?

Lies, lies & more lies. But this will still go ahead & people will still pay.

I'm sick of this "it rains" crap.
People waste far too much water in this country. It may rain (what rain have we had in Dub since november? My umbrella is usually tucked away), but that does not translate to treated water. Pipes need maintaining, etc etc.
We should have water meters, and they should be based on use. Maybe then people will stop leaving taps running all night just in case, or taking half an hour to have a shower.

Padraig Mor

bluewolf wrote: »

I'm sick of this "it rains" crap.
People waste far too much water in this country. It may rain (what rain have we had in Dub since november? My umbrella is usually tucked away), but that does not translate to treated water. Pipes need maintaining, etc etc.
We should have water meters, and they should be based on use. Maybe then people will stop leaving taps running all night just in case, or taking half an hour to have a shower.

1. The public already pay for water treatment / infrastructure through general taxation. Separate water charges are just asking us to pay MORE.

2. It's been estimated that leaks in the system waste 50% of water before it gets to your house. Fix that maybe?

phasers

I woulld support water meters if the revenue generated was put 100% back into fixing and maintaining our ridiculous ancient water network, but it won't.

2qk4u

If we have to pay for the water will they improve the quality ? We have to buy bottled water because you cant drink the tap water where I am. We have to filter it before it goes into the kettle.

Turtyturd

Padraig Mor wrote: »

1. The public already pay for water treatment / infrastructure through general taxation. Separate water charges are just asking us to pay MORE.

2. It's been estimated that leaks in the system waste 50% of water before it gets to your house. Fix that maybe?

That kind of rational thinking aint welcome around here....the IMF said to charge for water so it has to be done.

Frank Black

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Am I the only one to think that these 'excuses' for bring in water metering are bullshít? Last time I checked, it rains a lot in Ireland, which produces plenty of fresh water.

QUOTE]


And with that simple statement the OP exposed the depth of thier knowledge on the subject.

CrazyRabbit

bluewolf wrote: »

I'm sick of this "it rains" crap.
People waste far too much water in this country. It may rain (what rain have we had in Dub since november? My umbrella is usually tucked away), but that does not translate to treated water. Pipes need maintaining, etc etc.
We should have water meters, and they should be based on use. Maybe then people will stop leaving taps running all night just in case, or taking half an hour to have a shower.

Conserving water is fine, but saying we have a shortage of water is laugable.

Padraig Mor wrote: »

1. The public already pay for water treatment / infrastructure through general taxation. Separate water charges are just asking us to pay MORE.

2. It's been estimated that leaks in the system waste 50% of water before it gets to your house. Fix that maybe?

Agreed. Fixing the pipes would save far more water than any measures people take.

phasers wrote: »

I woulld support water meters if the revenue generated was put 100% back into fixing and maintaining our ridiculous ancient water network, but it won't.

We already pay for water network maintenance through our regular taxes.

2qk4u wrote: »

If we have to pay for the water will they improve the quality ? We have to buy bottled water because you cant drink the tap water where I am. We have to filter it before it goes into the kettle.

Agreed also. The water from my tap is very hard. Somedays you can't even see through a glass because it's so cloudy. I have to filter the water to reduce the risk of kidney stones.

mikemac

We've our own pump, installed and serviced annually.
Piping goes 600 metres so that was quite a trench and of course the well had drilled for.

I'd like to see the council try to install a meter here
Will be getting out the shotgun

Ah no, but people in rural areas have been paying for water for years.
If the council want to bill these people, well they better take over the maintenance so.

CrazyRabbit

black francis wrote: »

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Am I the only one to think that these 'excuses' for bring in water metering are bullshít? Last time I checked, it rains a lot in Ireland, which produces plenty of fresh water.

And with that simple statement the OP exposed the depth of thier knowledge on the subject.

I am well aware of how water treatment works, and the costs associated. I was merely pointing out that the government is making it sound like we are going to run out of fresh water soon. Fresh water IS renewable & is not finite.

squod

I wanna see a serious report that covers fairly basic stuff first. It's likely a whole lot cheaper to increase catchment and capacity than to go around installing water meters all over the gaff.

Fixing leaks/preventing leaks etc are also a simple solution. People have already pointed out that our population will now not rise as quickly as previously estimated. (Recession emigration).

There's another cost that people won't discuss. The added red tape and bureaucracy associated with these meters. Are people seriously suggesting we should now employ a host of PS workers to look after billing and customer care? The cost of their pensions alone would make any of these schemes unaffordable.

smash

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

And how the hell can an extra tax make Ireland more attractive to investors?

Easy... like eflow etc, they'll probably outsource the metering and privatise the pipework layouts.

prinz

It's about time too. Might encourage people to cop the hell on when it comes to ridiculous usage.

hadook

mikemac wrote: »

We've our own pump, installed and serviced annually.
Piping goes 600 metres so that was quite a trench and of course the well had drilled for.

I'd like to see the council try to install a meter here
Will be getting out the shotgun

Ah no, but people in rural areas have been paying for water for years.
If the council want to bill these people, well they better take over the maintenance so.

Me to. I'll be building a porch just for my rocking chair and shotgun if anyone tries to meter the water I already pay for.

I'm all for water meters if the money goes back into maintenance/upgrade of the system. But it won't :rolleyes:

sollar

With these 2 charges coming down the line my gut reaction is... i will need to look after the pennies next year.

iPlop

We used to get our water from Kildare, which was full of lime and ruined countless washing machines and kettles.Last year they changed us over to the Dublin water supply which has no lime in it at all, bit of a no brainer as I live in Wicklow anyway.

The point is I'd have a real problem paying for water if it was full of lime and ruined my utilities at home.Are you going to be able to charge the government for your ruined washing machines, kettles and all that since you're paying for the service??!!

hacked

So will water meters be installed everywhere? Last budget cut I was told that rental properties would be excluded. I was skeptical of that, but haven't looked into it much.

breadandjam

Lets be clear here this has nothing to do with protecting the "finite" resource of water. They government aren't interested in the environment. If the government were interested in that they'd stop the leaks. This is just another tax to raise money- no TD is going to have to worry about the extra money needed to pay their water charges

breadandjam

hacked wrote: »

So will water meters be installed everywhere? Last budget cut I was told that rental properties would be excluded. I was skeptical of that, but haven't looked into it much.

Why would rental properties be excluded? Should they get free water?

JohnMarston

Remember folks, water is a finite resource, like oil and gas!

hacked

breadandjam wrote: »

Why would rental properties be excluded? Should they get free water?

That's what I had thought! I was away for last budget cut, but had a number of people tell me this questionable piece of information...

gman2k

hadook wrote: »

Me to. I'll be building a porch just for my rocking chair and shotgun if anyone tries to meter the water I already pay for.

I'm all for water meters if the money goes back into maintenance/upgrade of the system. But it won't :rolleyes:

I recently moved into the house I built and paid for.
I paid for my own well, pump, piping etc. The state has given me zero financial assistance with any of this.
No one is ever going to set foot onto my property to put a meter onto my water system. End of.
I am not going to pay any water charge.
I've no problem doing a spell in Mountjoy or wherever about this. If they attach a meter onto my system whilst I am locked up, it will be removed when I return and thrown through the window of Dail Eireann.

In a few years time, all the water providers will be privatised, and you will pay by the litre, and exorbitant cost.
Just look at Hogans press conference the other day - who was there? Reps from English water companies.

breadandjam

JohnMarston wrote: »

Remember folks, water is a finite resource, like oil and gas!

No it isn't like oil and gas

lucylu

hacked wrote: »

So will water meters be installed everywhere? Last budget cut I was told that rental properties would be excluded. I was skeptical of that, but haven't looked into it much.

no people on Private water schemes and those with private wells do not get a water meter

westies4ever

Sink The Banana wrote: »

We used to get our water from Kildare, which was full of lime and ruined countless washing machines and kettles.Last year they changed us over to the Dublin water supply which has no lime in it at all, bit of a no brainer as I live in Wicklow anyway.

The point is I'd have a real problem paying for water if it was full of lime and ruined my utilities at home.Are you going to be able to charge the government for your ruined washing machines, kettles and all that since you're paying for the service??!!

totally agree, i live in laois and our water is awful! i paid €800 6 years ago for a water softener system - no grant or help with that - its now broken and the company who fitted it have gone bust. At the minute, I cant afford to replace it.

The tap water is undrinkable, I spend money every week on descaling chemicals to clear out the shower head and kettle and bottled drinking water. I'm waiting for the washing machine to give up (2 broke in the couple of years we lived here before the softener went in). Why should I pay for a water supply which isnt up to scratch??

careca11

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Just read this:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0531/water.html



Am I the only one to think that these 'excuses' for bring in water metering are bullshít? Last time I checked, it rains a lot in Ireland, which produces plenty of fresh water.

And how the hell can an extra tax make Ireland more attractive to investors? And finally, since when do we have water supply issues?

Lies, lies & more lies. But this will still go ahead & people will still pay.

yep .............we the people on the street know that the local authorities are deep in the black .....................water charges will be going to them .......only to sure up their own pay

a tax on flushing the toilet after empting the bowels ...............another words a tax on sh1t

mgmt

gman2k wrote: »

I recently moved into the house I built and paid for.
I paid for my own well, pump, piping etc. The state has given me zero financial assistance with any of this.
No one is ever going to set foot onto my property to put a meter onto my water system. End of.
I am not going to pay any water charge.
I've no problem doing a spell in Mountjoy or wherever about this. If they attach a meter onto my system whilst I am locked up, it will be removed when I return and thrown through the window of Dail Eireann.

In a few years time, all the water providers will be privatised, and you will pay by the litre, and exorbitant cost.
Just look at Hogans press conference the other day - who was there? Reps from English water companies.

Eh, you dont use public water atm, so why do you think you'd be metered? Or do you just want to pull a hissy fit?

We have had water meters for the last two or three years as does everyone on our group water scheme.

mgmt

JohnMarston wrote: »

Remember folks, water is a finite resource, like oil and gas!

Fresh water is finite. They ran out of it in London and now treat the effluent coming out of the wasterwater plants for drinking water.

Fratton Fred

What's the alternative then? An increase in PAYE?

Nice if you are a taxi driver, farmer, builder etc who works cash in hand. Even nicer if you are unemployed or retired.

Very very nice if you sold all your assets during the boom and now spend all day counting your money whilst sat in the hot tub of one of your three properties watching the irrigation system water your garden.

iPlop

westies4ever wrote: »

totally agree, i live in laois and our water is awful! i paid €800 6 years ago for a water softener system - no grant or help with that - its now broken and the company who fitted it have gone bust. At the minute, I cant afford to replace it.

The tap water is undrinkable, I spend money every week on descaling chemicals to clear out the shower head and kettle and bottled drinking water. I'm waiting for the washing machine to give up (2 broke in the couple of years we lived here before the softener went in). Why should I pay for a water supply which isnt up to scratch??

This is the point, you should't be paying for undrinkable water, when I moved here from Dublin 9 years ago, the water was shíte, We've gone through 3 washing machines and 2 dishwashers and I was using de-scaling chemicals as well.We're just lucky that they changed us over last year.

The government should be forced to install water filters in every home outside Dublin if they're gonna charge you for it.

johnboysligo

I'm starting to think Ireland is ran by keystone cops :P

an estimated 50% of water is lost though damaged / leaking pipes so we make up for it by charging every household for what water does get though.......

Micky Dolenz

bluewolf wrote: »

I'm sick of this "it rains" crap.
People waste far too much water in this country. It may rain (what rain have we had in Dub since november? My umbrella is usually tucked away), but that does not translate to treated water. Pipes need maintaining, etc etc.
We should have water meters, and they should be based on use. Maybe then people will stop leaving taps running all night just in case, or taking half an hour to have a shower.

While that is correct, a major problem is the aging water service network
Millions of litres of water are flowing away each year in underground leaks making a tap run look like a drop in the ocean. These problems should be tackled first.

I am against water metering because installation costs are too high, spend the money on the real problem, the network. Charge house holders a flat fee instead.

prinz

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Charge house holders a flat fee instead.

In other words Paddy, conserves water whenever he can, pays the same as Mary next door who leaves the taps running 24/7? Yup that's fair. Sure we should charge a flat fee for electricity too, and gas..

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Water is finite because I have been told so by the peoples on the interwebs...

YFlyer

Simple rainwater catchment system for the toilets and for washing the car.

Note: The Danes even pay to have their used/waste water treated. Industrial at least, not sure about domestic tho.

digme

bluewolf wrote: »

I'm sick of this "it rains" crap.
People waste far too much water in this country. It may rain (what rain have we had in Dub since november? My umbrella is usually tucked away), but that does not translate to treated water. Pipes need maintaining, etc etc.
We should have water meters, and they should be based on use. Maybe then people will stop leaving taps running all night just in case, or taking half an hour to have a shower.

pure hosrsesh!t, they lose 50% of the water before it gets to your house.Perhaps if we put a water meter on at the source and another at the house we could charge them fcking eejits.

drdeadlift

prinz wrote: »

It's about time too. Might encourage people to cop the hell on when it comes to ridiculous usage.

Can you give me an example of this ridiculous usage.I dont know anyone that needs to cop on about their water usage/wastage.No one i know wastes water.Well actually i cant remember ever seeing anyone i know being ridiculous about water usage.
This government need to get their finger out!

Liam Byrne

YFlyer wrote: »

Simple rainwater catchment system for the toilets and for washing the car.

"Simple" ?

What is the cost of replumbing, etc, including re-tiling and whatever else is required ?

Where the f**k is an average household that's already being screwed supposed to find the cash for that ?

How does someone renting in an apartment block go about doing that ?

I suppose we should all go back to the dark ages flushing the loo with a bucket ?

JohnMarston

breadandjam wrote: »

No it isn't like oil and gas

:rolleyes:

dpe

So let me get this straight, the water system is running at 50% efficiency, so people are saying, "fix that before I pay for water". Fix it with what exactly? People really aren't getting this; Ireland is still one of the lowest tax per capita countries in the developed world (certainly in the EU). If you want decent water, decent services, decent healthcare, you have to pay for it. Even ignoring the financial crisis, this was true. There's barely a country in the EU that doesn't have water charges (maybe Malta?).

Every time I see threads like this I keep getting surprised by how much people are in Denial (maybe you can get your free water from there).

careca11

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What's the alternative then? An increase in PAYE?

Nice if you are a taxi driver, farmer, builder etc who works cash in hand. Even nicer if you are unemployed or retired.

Very very nice if you sold all your assets during the boom and now spend all day counting your money whilst sat in the hot tub of one of your three properties watching the irrigation system water your garden.

the althernative is to stop the Gravy train FFS
read this :
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0530/1224298059275.html

meglome

dpe wrote: »

So let me get this straight, the water system is running at 50% efficiency, so people are saying, "fix that before I pay for water". Fix it with what exactly? People really aren't getting this; Ireland is still one of the lowest tax per capita countries in the developed world (certainly in the EU). If you want decent water, decent services, decent healthcare, you have to pay for it. Even ignoring the financial crisis, this was true. There's barely a country in the EU that doesn't have water charges (maybe Malta?).

Every time I see threads like this I keep getting surprised by how much people are in Denial (maybe you can get your free water from there).

Ah some sense in the thread. The water system is in shíte because we didn't put proper money into it. We are not a high tax nation so where exactly do people think the money is coming from? Maybe we should keep to the previous system of ignoring it and hoping it'll fix itself.

What has 50% loss got to do with householders conserving water or otherwise? You think that because a load of water gets wasted already we should feel free to waste what we do get?

mgmt

Liam Byrne wrote: »

"Simple" ?

What is the cost of replumbing, etc, including re-tiling and whatever else is required ?

Where the f**k is an average household that's already being screwed supposed to find the cash for that ?

Do you drink the water from your bathroom? Treated water is piped directly to the cold tap in your kitchen. The rest of the water from your taps/toilet come from the tank in your attic. You are not supposed to drink this water atm. It wouldn't be that expensive to pump collected rainwater up to the attic tank if someone so wished.

breadandjam

meglome wrote: »

Ah some sense in the thread. The water system is in shíte because we didn't put proper money into it. We are not a high tax nation so where exactly do people think the money is coming from? Maybe we should keep to the previous system of ignoring it and hoping it'll fix itself.

And whose fault is it that money wasn't put into repairing the water system while the government miss spent our taxes on electronic voting and other crappy schemes while voting in a payrise and more expenses to themselves at every opportunity?

Do you really think it's likely that the government will use the money to repair and maintain the water supply system?

Frank Black

breadandjam wrote: »

And whose fault is it that money wasn't put into repairing the water system while the government miss spent our taxes on electronic voting and other crappy schemes while voting in a payrise and more expenses to themselves at every opportunity?

Do you really think it's likely that the government will use the money to repair and maintain the water supply system?

In terms of whose fault it is – well it’s pretty much all of our faults because we voted in the politicians in the first place – then we as a society decided that we didn’t want to pay the kind of taxes that would be necessary to repair our crumbling water infrastructure system – we decided that we’d prefer a second car or maybe a couple of extra foreign trips a year.
You can blame the politicians, but any Party prior to the elections in 1997 or 2002 who would have run on a platform of increasing taxes to provide better services would have been obliterated at the polls – because people are short-sighted and greedy.
In terms of whether it’s likely that the government will use any money generated from water-metering to pay for repairs to the system – of course not – the money will be used to service the debt that we currently owe the ECB/IMF.

Teyla Emmagan

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Charge house holders a flat fee instead.

I'm completely against a flat fee being imposed. I live alone, I don't think I should have to pay the same amount for my water as a family with six kids (or 13 people renting a house in bunk beds).

Where I live we've had real water shortages for the last 2 winters. I was 10 days without water last January (while the car washes on the Stillorgan Dual Carriageway were still running). I am SO careful with my water as a result (more for a respect for the water then because I'm going to run out of it at any given time). So I don't see why I should pay the same fee as people who leave their taps running for days at a time so they don't get frozen pipes.

I'm quite happy with the principle that I should pay for my water - though fixing the leaky existing system is the first place the money should be put into. It will be a joke otherwise.

The other thing that struck me is that the Irish Times are claiming people will get 40 free litres a day before they have to pay for it. 40 litre is about 4 flushes of the loo - it's nothing. So we'll see I guess...

DoesNotCompute

bluewolf wrote: »

I'm sick of this "it rains" crap.
People waste far too much water in this country. It may rain (what rain have we had in Dub since november? My umbrella is usually tucked away), but that does not translate to treated water.

Maybe not, but the quality of rainwater is good enough for flushing toilets, watering the garden, washing the car, cleaning around the house, etc.

Personally, when metering comes in, I am going to install a water butt out the back garden to siphon rainwater off of my gutter and use buckets of water filled from this garden butt to "flush" the toilets, clean around the house, etc. I'm only going to use treated water coming off the mains for showering, drinking, washing dishes, etc. I'm hoping that this strategy will mean I won't ever go over the free allowance that is planned.

If the govt had any foresight during the property boom, they would have made it mandatory for new builds to include rainwater filtering & recycling systems. Alternatively, if the Greens were any use, they would have done this when they were in power, or at least provided generous grants for installing such systems.

Given how much it rains in this country, why can't the government use this to their advantage, and provide some sort of secondary non-treated "greywater" feeds to homes for use in toilet flushing, car washing, gardening, etc?

I'm sorry, but for Minister Hogan to state that water is a finite resource is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, especially in a country where it rains pretty much all the time. If he's going to introduce a banker tax, at least call it so.

bluewolf wrote: »

Pipes need maintaining, etc etc.

Have they not been maintained up till now? If they have, how have the govt obtained funding to do so? What has changed such that water meters are now necessary?

bluewolf wrote: »

We should have water meters, and they should be based on use. Maybe then people will stop leaving taps running all night just in case, or taking half an hour to have a shower.

Honestly, who leaves taps "running all night"? Who showers for half an hour??

dpe

So let me get this straight, the water system is running at 50% efficiency, so people are saying, "fix that before I pay for water". Fix it with what exactly? People really aren't getting this; Ireland is still one of the lowest tax per capita countries in the developed world (certainly in the EU). If you want decent water, decent services, decent healthcare, you have to pay for it. Even ignoring the financial crisis, this was true. There's barely a country in the EU that doesn't have water charges (maybe Malta?).

Every time I see threads like this I keep getting surprised by how much people are in Denial (maybe you can get your free water from there).

Paddy De Plasterer

sollar wrote: »

With these 2 charges coming down the line my gut reaction is... i will need to look after the pennies next year.

agree. I suppose meter is fair, as why should a person living alone with a 2 bedroomed cottage pay the same as a house with 8 bedrooms and 3 bathrooms, and maybe 6 people living in it.

Only problem is some stingy people will hardly use any water, and not wash themselves properly. Older people can be prone to that.