Phoenix Park Etiquette

Rew

I got beeped twice today for cycling down the main road in the park, I was well in (basically on the yellow line) doing about 40kph. I go though there twice a day and Id normally do the Castleknock half on the road on the way in in the mornings as I find it easier and safer to be on the road for the roundabouts, then on to the cycle path to the zoo and back on to the raod for the last round about and out the main gate. I'm I wrong or am I just meeting drivers who haven't had their morning coffee?

On a brighter note did my found a slightly better route (18.5km) and got door to door faster (43:55) then the bus can get bus stop to bus stop which is a great result, im saving time and money and getting fitter by the day!!

Lumen

You are legally entitled to use the road.

QueensGael

I've given up using the cycle lanes in the park; they're full of pedestrians, dogs, buggies, joggers - none of whom think they need to get out of my way, even when I used my voice-activated warning system

Much prefer to stay on the road. And as previously stated, you're perfectly entitled to use it.

ThisRegard

You've just met a couple of ignorant drivers, I stick to the roads when on a training spin and only got beeped at once by some oul bag, the majority of drivers seem to behave within the confines of the park. I only use the cycle lanes in the mornings when on the way to work, but haven't done that in a long time.

In the evenings the cycle lane is grand as long as you're not looking to do any form of speed, it's more suited to recreational cycling.

Caroline_ie

I do see on a regular basis people on their TT bikes on the cycle lanes, in the aero position etc
wtf.

fat bloke

You know you're not allowed train in the Phoenix Park now?

mikemac

Safer on the road.
I crashed off the bike and need stitches and missed time off work swerving to avoid two power walking on the green cycle lane on the main avenue, these ladies put more energy into swinging their arms then walking.

Yeah, my fault though
I didn't expect them to walk straight out in front of me with their backs to me

They're lucky they didn't get a tyre and a 70kg cyclist into them over 20km/ph :mad:

LCRC_BAX

fat bloke wrote: »

You know you're not allowed train in the Phoenix Park now?

Unbelievably this is true - few of our lads got pulled in by park ranger during the snow - they were on xc / mtn bikes on a Sat morning doing a few laps off road - the ranger tried to tell them they were 'training' and this wasn't allowed. But you are allowed to ride your bike..... what's the difference between training & just riding & is the park not for everyone's benefit?

What a load of nonsense.

Lusk Doyle

LCRC_BAX wrote: »

Unbelievably this is true - few of our lads got pulled in by park ranger during the snow - they were on xc / mtn bikes on a Sat morning doing a few laps off road - the ranger tried to tell them they were 'training' and this wasn't allowed. But you are allowed to ride your bike..... what's the difference between training & just riding & is the park not for everyone's benefit?

What a load of nonsense.

And the runners / joggers there are doing what...??? Not training surely!!!

fat bloke

They're exercising:rolleyes:

muckwarrior

LCRC_BAX wrote: »

the ranger tried to tell them they were 'training' and this wasn't allowed.

The ranger would be better off spending his time telling all the ignorant pedestrians to get the hell off the cycle lane.

a148pro

I reckon a lot of people don't know they're cycle only lanes. I jogged there for years without copping on. They should put up some proper visible signage explaining its cyclists and cyclists only. Only a matter of time before someone is hurt. ..

Rew

Not to mention the salmon riders, I had to push in for 2 riders on road bikes in all the kit cycling side by side in the wrong direction chatting yesterday evening.

The no training in the park is a joke, who in their right mind came up with that? I do my Army fitness tests in the park every year are they going to put a stop to that? 50 soldiers in combat gear doing 10k up the main road, don't think the park rangers would dare!

mikemac

a148pro wrote: »

They should put up some proper visible signage explaining its cyclists and cyclists only.

It would make no difference

For example, the cycle lane along Clontarf is well signposted
And the walkers & joggers have two footpaths and the promenade so three options for them.

Doesn't keep some off the cycle lane though.

RTT

I prefer to use the cycle lane as until recently the road was in bits with potholes etc.
It is frustrating with joggers and walkers on the green cycle lane when they get in my way, but when I'm in my car, I admit it can be frustrating being stuck behind a cyclist on the road if they're not using the lane.

Lumen

a148pro wrote: »

I reckon a lot of people don't know they're cycle only lanes. I jogged there for years without copping on. They should put up some proper visible signage explaining its cyclists and cyclists only. Only a matter of time before someone is hurt. ..

Signage won't make it safer. If you increased the compliance rate from 25% to 99% the cyclists will just go faster and the remaining 1% will get hurt.

It's a shared amenity. Cyclists should go exercise care around pedestrians just like everywhere else.

Related to this, I almost collided with a salmoning cyclist a few weeks ago as I overtook a slower cyclist on my commute. I had checked for peds in the immediate surroundings but wasn't looking for salmon further up the track. I should have been more careful - you just cannot expect people to abide by what seem like obvious rules.

It's safer and more fun to overtake on the grass.

I don't really understand the point of training in the Park anyway. It's just not possible to sustain any sort of speed around cars, peds and leisure cyclists.

Rew

RTT wrote: »

I prefer to use the cycle lane as until recently the road was in bits with potholes etc.
It is frustrating with joggers and walkers on the green cycle lane when they get in my way, but when I'm in my car, I admit it can be frustrating being stuck behind a cyclist on the road if they're not using the lane.

I was nearly taken out of it on a cycle lane recently by a fella turning around to talk to someone he tuned onto the path with his arm out.

Was very quiet this morning they weren't stuck behind me at all, in fact they sailed by me no problem.

Oink

Rew wrote: »

[...] The no training in the park is a joke, who in their right mind came up with that? [...]

Whoever it is obviously has his own private version of the Phoenix park bye laws, because I can't find it in here:

http://www.phoenixpark.ie/about/phoenixparkbyelaws/

EDIT:

Lumen wrote: »

You are legally entitled to use the road.

OK, but some cycle lanes are compulsory, some are not. It either IS, or ISN'T.
Does anyone know what's the case in Phoenix park?

Lumen wrote: »

It's a shared amenity. Cyclists should go exercise care around pedestrians just like everywhere else.

Is it officially, legally shared? Genuine question, because my understanding is that there is one lane for pedestrians, one for cyclists, and ne'ver the twain shall meet.


And finally, I thought both lanes, on either side of the road, could be used in both directions. Was I right ot wrong? (Thanks.)

mikemac

Oink wrote: »

And finally, I thought both lanes, on either side of the road, could be used in both directions. Was I right ot wrong? (Thanks.)

I'm pretty certain the cycle lanes are marked as one way

muckwarrior

a148pro wrote: »

I reckon a lot of people don't know they're cycle only lanes. I jogged there for years without copping on. They should put up some proper visible signage explaining its cyclists and cyclists only. Only a matter of time before someone is hurt. ..

The different coloured lane with bicycles painted on it isn't enough of a clue?

Having a designated cycle lane is utterly pointless if it isn't going to be enforced. If rangers chastised people for walking on it instead of bothering cyclists for 'training' then I reckon within a couple of months a large proportion of the offenders would get the message.

Perhaps it would be a good idea for the RSA to add pedestrian/cycle lane etiquette to their awareness ads?

c0rk3r

"As much as a like looking at your ass would you mind removing it from the cycle lane. Im gonna be around in another 15minutes, i might see you again"

She will either move off the lane or stay put

"Ah! you again! Im guessing you were waiting for me to come around again. tell you what, Ill take your number and call you later, im abit busy at the moment"

This is how you pick up women in the phoenix park cycle lanes or they move off the lane thinking your a weirdo. Good fun either way

Lumen

Oink wrote: »

some cycle lanes are compulsory, some are not. It either IS, or ISN'T. Does anyone know what's the case in Phoenix park?

The national legislation on mandatory cycle lanes is dependent on precise signage, but the Phoenix Park is not governed by the same signage rules as normal public roads as it's owned by the OPW. Therefore, AIUI, legally the cycle tracks in the Park are not mandatory.

Oink wrote: »

Is it officially, legally shared? Genuine question, because my understanding is that there is one lane for pedestrians, one for cyclists, and ne'ver the twain shall meet.

This has been discussed to death before (search).

As I understand it pedestrians are not specifically restricted from the cycle tracks, but it makes little practical difference how the lanes are designated since you have a duty of care to pedestrians even when they're in the wrong place. Analogy: cyclists are not allowed on motorways. If a car driver saw a cyclist on a motorway and did not take reasonable care resulting in an accident they'd be liable to prosecution for dangerous driving. You can't just run into people because they're wrong.

In any case it is not safe for cyclists to be flying down those cycle paths since they are right next to on-road parking, and therefore there will always be used by peds. Access to the non-cycling footpath is blocked by low rails for most of the length of the Park, so people with buggies are forced to use the cycle path or the grass.

Lumen

muckwarrior wrote: »

Having a designated cycle lane is utterly pointless if it isn't going to be enforced.

Depends how you interpret the signage. One interpretation is "this path may be used by cyclists". Another is "this path may only be used by cyclists". Another is "only this path may be used by cyclists".

It's a Park, a place of leisure. Deer frolick, children play, rollerbladers and amateur tridorks show off their lack of dignity, MILFs wobble their cellulite. This is not the place for speed.

ThisRegard

Lumen wrote: »

I don't really understand the point of training in the Park anyway. It's just not possible to sustain any sort of speed around cars, peds and leisure cyclists.

You're just not doing it right ! It's easy enough if you do a loop on the Military Road side.

fat bloke

Lumen wrote: »

. This is not the place for speed.

Well....

time and a place and all that:pac:.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdM7KuTxffU

100Suns

If you are not allowed to train in the Park (no statutory/bye-law provision cited to date), yet you use your commute to work for training, in the event that you are involved in an accident, will your CI insurance coverage be void? Is there an OPW/CI conspiracy? That's how ludicrous the situation is. How does a ranger distinguish the purpose of a cyclist's trip. Will GPS tracking be mandatory for cyclists in the Park to ascertain their motives? If that's all that that ranger has to do, An Bord Snip Nua should prioritise looking at wastage in the Ranger's service in the OPW.

Lusk Doyle

100Suns wrote: »

If you are not allowed to train in the Park (no statutory/bye-law provision cited to date), yet you use your commute to work for training, in the event that you are involved in an accident, will your CI insurance coverage be void? Is there an OPW/CI conspiracy? That's how ludicrous the situation is. How does a ranger distinguish the purpose of a cyclist's trip. Will GPS tracking be mandatory for cyclists in the Park to ascertain their motives? If that's all that that ranger has to do, An Bord Snip Nua should prioritise looking at wastage in the Ranger's service in the OPW.

Average speed cameras at all entrances like they have in the UK of GB & NI. Speed above a certain kph will be understood to be training rather than merely cycling!

Caroline_ie

Maybe if you go dressed all Fredish, they won't bother you because surely, you can't be a 'discovery team' rider training.
Maybe the OPW know their freds and are actually really smart.

QueensGael

If there's a training ban, then how does one explain the various bootcamp/fitness/yoga outfits that are operating in the park?

$$$

Lusk Doyle

QueensGael wrote: »

If there's a training ban, then how does one explain the various bootcamp/fitness/yoga outfits that are operating in the park?

$$$

I would say €€€ but we all know that these aint worth much anymore so $$$ it is!

muckwarrior

Lumen wrote: »

In any case it is not safe for cyclists to be flying down those cycle paths since they are right next to on-road parking, and therefore there will always be used by peds.

I agree with you, to an extent at least. Cyclists need to be more careful than usual and expect a certain amount of pedestrians crossing their path. However, they shouldn't be forced to take to the grass every 50 metres to bypass groups of people that couldn't be bothered using the path that runs parallel only a few meters away.

Depends how you interpret the signage. One interpretation is "this path may be used by cyclists". Another is "this path may only be used by cyclists". Another is "only this path may be used by cyclists".

True, but when you have two parallel paths, one with bicycle signage and one without, would you not expect most semi intelligent/considerate people to think "Oh that one must be for cyclists, I'll walk on this one instead."?

Rew

muckwarrior wrote: »

Cyclists need to be more careful than usual and expect a certain amount of pedestrians crossing their path.

Or a horse as I had this morning

ROK ON

Last summer I was verbally assaulted by a young one fatter than I, with reams of celulite visible thru her lurid pink leggings. She said that I looked ridiculous.

I was wearing some colourful lycra on the way home from a training spin. I nearly fell off the bike on fits of laughter.

Lumen

muckwarrior wrote: »

True, but when you have two parallel paths, one with bicycle signage and one without, would you not expect most semi intelligent/considerate people to think "Oh that one must be for cyclists, I'll walk on this one instead."?

Before I started cycling again a couple of years ago I had been to the Park a few times and never noticed the bicycle signs.

The semantics of symbols painted on footpaths was of absolutely no interest to me. I saw a path, in a park, so I walked on it.

I'd never used a cycle path in my life, having not cycled since the decision to segregate cyclists on to crappy bits of glass-strewn tarmac was apparently taken.

monument

Rew wrote: »

I got beeped twice today for cycling down the main road in the park, I was well in (basically on the yellow line) doing about 40kph.

I hope they were going slower than you -- the speed limit in the park for motorists is 30km/h see http://www.phoenixpark.ie/about/phoenixparkbyelaws/

coolbeans

monument wrote: »

I hope they were going slower than you -- the speed limit in the park for motorists is 30km/h see http://www.phoenixpark.ie/about/phoenixparkbyelaws/

...and it looks like there's no speed limit for cyclists. Nice.

BTH

muckwarrior wrote: »

The ranger would be better off spending his time telling all the ignorant pedestrians to get the hell off the cycle lane.

The ranger would be better off clearing out all the knackers and their empty bulmers bottle. The amount of rubbish some people leave behind them in plain view is ridiculous. I've regularly seen empty beer and cider bottles and cans on the polo grounds.

BTH

QueensGael wrote: »

If there's a training ban, then how does one explain the various bootcamp/fitness/yoga outfits that are operating in the park?

$$$

And if there's not supposed to be any training, then whats with all the GAA/Soccer/Cricket/Polo pitchs??

Cookie_Monster

BetterThanHoyte wrote: »

I've regularly seen empty beer and cider bottles and cans on the polo grounds.

Dirty knacker horses on the piss

MadHatter

Re training - there's no blanket ban on training in the park. However, I understand that about 18 months ago the park authorities decided to clamp down on organised training sessions. If a club or commercial organisation wants to run a training session then they must apply for a permit. I suspect this is down to insurance issues - the park authorities want to ensure that adequate insurance has been put in place by the club/company organising the training.

To distinguish between casual training and organised training, they've simply specified an artibary number of people in the group - I think 4 people but not 100% - anything over that and it's considered organised training. Of course, if the guys doing the mountain biking over the winter happened to be wearing club gear this could've swung it for the ranger.

In fairness, I can see why they want to control/limit organised training. The approach to deciding something is organised may be a little crude but there's possibly no other way of doing it. However, there's certainly no ban on individuals or small groups training in the park - that would be ridiculous in the extreme.

tomasrojo

Lumen wrote: »

Access to the non-cycling footpath is blocked by low rails for most of the length of the Park, so people with buggies are forced to use the cycle path or the grass.

I noticed that today when I was wheeling my daughter in a buggy.

Stark

monument wrote: »

I hope they were going slower than you -- the speed limit in the park for motorists is 30km/h see http://www.phoenixpark.ie/about/phoenixparkbyelaws/

Is that new? I've never seen a 30km/hr sign in the Park. Although the bye-law only says "30km" rather than "30km/hr". Maybe 30km is the limit to how much cycling you can do before it counts as training.

Peetrik

fat bloke wrote: »

You know you're not allowed train in the Phoenix Park now?

I'v seen the army running through the park plenty of times. Shenanigans.

BostonB

I dunno how a cyclist can hit a pedestrian in the park. You have clear visibility for miles. I commute through it a couple of times a week, and theres hardly anyone in it in the morning. In the evening theres enough cyclists to keep any pedestrians on their toes. Maybe I've been lucky but almost all move when you ring a bell. If you are barreling past a few feet pedestrians, who aren't looking then what do you expect. My only problem has been at night, when you get ninja dog walkers, and joggers, they just appear out of the darkness as if by magic. Maybe I've been lucky, and/or not commuting enough on the bike.

Chips Lovell

The park's legal status is governed by the Phoenix Park Act of 1925, which puts the OPW in charge of it. They're allowed make by-laws. The only by-laws issued date from 1926. All they mention about cycling is:

(6) No vehicle other than a bicycle or tricycle shall be driven on or across the turf or grass in the Park except during such times and at such places as the Commissioners shall authorise and shall specify in notices exhibited at such places.


(7) No bicycle, tricycle, or other vehicle shall be ridden or driven at any time on or across any footpath in the Park.

In other words, there's nothing there about cyclists being prevented from using the roads or pedestrians being prevented from walking on the cycle paths.

Harrybelafonte

This comes up here at least a few times a year. As far as I can see the main probs are that the footpath is on the other side of the cycle path from the on street parking, so peds have to cross cyclepath to get there. Some just seem to prefer walking closer to the road.

The cycle path doesn't specifically say "No pedestrians" or some such other warning, so, as with other cyclepaths many peds view them as shared space.

There's no point in trying to do any speed on the main thoroughfare as not only will be peds, but there's always going to be cyclists coming th opposite direction, there's no signage insisting that a cyclist match the direction of traffic according to side. Plus there will always be slower cyclists there, so picking up speed is futile.

Bear in mind, it's a recreational park, it's a bit like a car speeding in a residential area.

All that in mind, peds on the cyclepath are an impediment to all cyclists trying to use them.

ThisRegard

Stark wrote: »

Is that new? I've never seen a 30km/hr sign in the Park. Although the bye-law only says "30km" rather than "30km/hr". Maybe 30km is the limit to how much cycling you can do before it counts as training.

They've been there as long as I can remember, but now I'm doubting myself thinking they're 50k signs. I'll be there later and check again.

GSF

el tonto wrote: »

The park's legal status is governed by the Phoenix Park Act of 1925, which puts the OPW in charge of it. They're allowed make by-laws. The only by-laws issued date from 1926.

good to see the OPW are keeping up with the times. Do the 1926 by-laws mention roller blading?

check_six

There's a 50km/h sign on street view in the park:

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=53.369236,-6.347558&spn=0,0.002425&z=19&layer=c&cbll=53.369165,-6.347385&panoid=wD0lhFG8ONWrPwxwW-IcFA&cbp=12,106.36,,1,10

ThisRegard

Yeah, just back from there, they're all 50km/h.

nerraw1111

The cycle lane is so badly designed and sign posted, that personally, I can't get annoyed with pedestrians walking on them.

In order to get onto the path from their car, they have to cross the cycle lane which is ridiculously dangerous.

And even then, it's not exactly clear that the nice tarmac that just stepped on with their kids is a cycle lane where some cyclist is approaching at speed, keen to demonstrate their wit by telling ppl to GTFO their cycle lane.

The design defies any logic and hence I expect to see pedestrians on the cycle lane and therefore refrain from cycling at speed. I really don't want to cream a poor pedestrian, as deep down, I'd know it would be entirely avoidable.

That said, the groups of walkers who deliberately block the cycle lane grinds my gears.

The no training rule is aimed at the boot camp groups.