AF447 fell 38,000ft in 3.5 minutes

CommuterIE

http://cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2011/05/27/exp.nr.quest.air.france.explainer.cnn

This would have been terrifying, may they rest in peace

Hopefully the lessons have been learned and the faulty pitots replaced on all affected Airbus aircraft

danniemcq

misread pitots as pilots

CommuterIE

danniemcq wrote: »

why you blame the pilots? did they hit turbulance air speed indicators froze up so they couldn't tell their speed so stalled and couldn't restart?

pilot was out of cockpit on a normal break

First of all I blamed nobody.... Secondly the two pilots were in the cockpit before the rapid descent

FlutterinBantam

Most airlines using Airbus A330s have modified their procedures regarding icing in the pitot tubes.

danniemcq

CommuterIE wrote: »

First of all I blamed nobody.... Secondly the two pilots were in the cockpit before the rapid descent

crap my bad misread your first post thought you said pilots not pitots

i take that back

bonerm

CommuterIE wrote: »

http://cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2011/05/27/exp.nr.quest.air.france.explainer.cnn

This would have been terrifying, may they rest in peace

Hopefully the lessons have been learned and the faulty pitots replaced on all affected Airbus aircraft

CNN. First with the jist of it.

FlutterinBantam

Find it strange that if the auto throttles and AP disengaged, they didn't adopt a nose down attitude to regain airspeed and come out of the stall.

but will we ever know.....................

cml387

It seems to have been a very dynamic situation,
From the start of the problem to the loss of control seems to have been less than two minutes.

For a more learned if possibly more confusing debate on this,have a look at www.pprune.org

My name is URL

Interesting video... very melodramatic news report though

CommuterIE

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Find it strange that if the auto throttles and AP disengaged, they didn't adopt a nose down attitude to regain airspeed and come out of the stall.

but will we ever know.....................

Presumably if the pitots froze the ADI's would be dead... lack of situational awareness in the dark kills

Also, it is most likely they actually had overspeed indications on their air speed indicator because of the frozen pitots

CommuterIE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXTbseOEFdQ

This is what can happen if the pitots are blocked

cml387

There's a very sad truism in aviation accidents,and that is "Blame the dead guys".

Rawhead

This is the kind of thing that scares the living dung out of me with regards flying. People always quote stats saying your more likely to die in a car crash and I don't doubt you are but, no car crash is going to last 3 minutes odd.
God rest all those souls on board and hopefully they passed out fairly quickly.

CommuterIE

Rawhead wrote: »

This is the kind of thing that scares the living dung out of me with regards flying. People always quote stats saying your more likely to die in a car crash and I don't doubt you are but, no car crash is going to last 3 minutes odd.
God rest all those souls on board and hopefully they passed out fairly quickly.

Indeed, there were also Irish citizens on the flight... whilst that doesn't negate the other losses it just makes it feel closer to home

Manic Moran

Also, it is most likely they actually had overspeed indications on their air speed indicator because of the frozen pitots

The report gives indications of what the readings were, and never states an overspeed. They were usually low, indicating a slow clog of the pitot only (or a very high AOA, which is also possible).

There's a very sad truism in aviation accidents,and that is "Blame the dead guys".

It cannot be ruled out in this case. You don't need an ASI to fly straight and level, and the consistant pulling back on the stick in a stall situation is worthy of question.

NTM

CommuterIE

Manic Moran wrote: »

The report gives indications of what the readings were, and never states an overspeed. They were usually low, indicating a slow clog of the pitot only.

NTM

This may be true, however I don't think if the pilots had the information to hand of what their aircraft was actually doing they would have pointed the nose up, which has all the indications they thought they were flying fast enough

The Left Hand Of God

I doubt anyone on the plane knew how bad it was, bar the pilots. The plane was not nose diving.

CommuterIE

The Left Hand Of God wrote: »

I doubt anyone on the plane knew how bad it was, bar the pilots. The plane was not nose diving.

Wrong!!!! To fall 38,000ft flat out in 3.5 mins would have been absolutely anyones worst nightmare.... they knew what was coming, if some didn't black out along the way down

bonerm

What's the g-force like on a drop like that?

Rawhead

The Left Hand Of God wrote: »

I doubt anyone on the plane knew how bad it was, bar the pilots. The plane was not nose diving.

No offense, but that rate of descent is close to the pace a freefall parachutist descends at. They would have been fully aware of what was happening, that's what makes it all the more terrifying.

FlutterinBantam

The Left Hand Of God wrote: »

I doubt anyone on the plane knew how bad it was, bar the pilots. The plane was not nose diving.

Not according to the report...?

Fcuker was pitched up from what i can deduce.


Ooops plane not nose diving.... yes misread that.

The Left Hand Of God

CommuterIE wrote: »

Wrong!!!! To fall 38,000ft flat out in 3.5 mins would have been absolutely anyones worst nightmare.... they knew what was coming, if some didn't black out along the way down

I was under the impression that was much the same as an emergency decent?

CommuterIE

bonerm wrote: »

What's the g-force like on a drop like that?

Not sure about the negative G, but they hit the ocean at 11,000ft per min...

CommuterIE

The Left Hand Of God wrote: »

I was under the impression that was much the same as an emergency decent?

No...

sdanseo

Manic Moran wrote: »

The report gives indications of what the readings were, and never states an overspeed. They were usually low, indicating a slow clog of the pitot only (or a very high AOA, which is also possible).



It cannot be ruled out in this case. You don't need an ASI to fly straight and level, and the consistant pulling back on the stick in a stall situation is worthy of question.

NTM

Was it in daylight or night-time that the accident occurred? If you lose your instruments over a pitch black ocean, straight and level becomes next to impossible. Spatial disorientation.

A regular descent in an A330 would be between 1500-2500fpm. An emergency descent could be two or three times that at the very most, any faster and the airframe becomes unstable.

If the aircraft was falling but pitched up, to me it would suggest total instrument failure, spatial disorientation, stall and loss of flight envelope...followed, almost inevitably, by the crash. However isn't there a standby gyroscopic ADI for these reasons which should have worked regardless?

The Left Hand Of God

CommuterIE wrote: »

No...

Well that is that is eh... that then. :rolleyes:

CommuterIE

sdonn wrote: »

Was it in daylight or night-time that the accident occurred? If you lose your instruments over a pitch black ocean, straight and level becomes next to impossible. Spatial disorientation.

A regular descent in an A330 would be between 1500-2500fpm. An emergency descent could be two or three times that at the very most, any faster and the airframe becomes unstable.

If the aircraft was falling but pitched up, to me it would suggest total instrument failure, spatial disorientation, stall and loss of flight envelope...followed, almost inevitably, by the crash. However isn't there a standby gyroscopic ADI for these reasons which should have worked regardless?

Anything more than 4,000fpm in the normal configuration would be scary for the passengers... this flight however went flat out at 11,000fpm... picture the scariest drop ever in a rollercoatser, multiply the by 100 for 3.5 mins...

The Left Hand Of God

CommuterIE wrote: »

Anything more than 4,000fpm in the normal configuration would be scary for the passengers... this flight however went flat out at 11,000fpm... picture the scariest drop ever in a rollercoatser, multiply the by 100 for 3.5 mins...

It was not a roller coaster. It was an aeroplane. Think about the science.

Or as far as I can see google all you want to find stuff to make a half assed attempt at a scientific argument.

sdanseo

In fairness commuter, this is AH not A&A...there have been worse jokes and there will be many more worse jokes.

celj...seriously notwithstanding the above, grow up.

FlutterinBantam

CommuterIE wrote: »

Just **** off, nobody wants to see any of that kind of ****e in this thread

Steady up now lads.

No need for anything like that in here.


Certainly not on this thread.


let the Mods handle things.

celj

CommuterIE wrote: »

Just **** off, nobody wants to see any of that kind of ****e in this thread

Well how very dare you indeed!


Aviation and Aircraft is that way>>>



This is After hours.

Get over it people.

Posy

God help those on board. It sounds terrifying.

sdanseo

Ah lads ffs. Posts reported. Theres a thread above dedicated to how the mods can beter handle this place, I'd hazard a guess not having babies allowed like you two might help.

Fukuyama

Big shame this. Goes to show that even in the hands of professional pilots and with highly sophisticated aeronautics engineering surrounding you; you're still in a tin can at 40,000 feet...

May all the passengers RIP.

celj

Posy wrote: »

God help those on board. It sounds terrifying.

Ah it's not too bad around here,a few drys*%tes but it's ..............

Oh you meant the plane.......

celj

CommuterIE wrote: »

Mods can you please get rid of this gob****e!

How very very dare you!!!:eek:

FlutterinBantam

celj wrote: »

How very very dare you!!!:eek:

jaysus.

where the fcuk were you since 2003:D


Seven posts a year:eek:

celj

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

jaysus.

where the fcuk were you since 2003:D


Seven posts a year:eek:

Early release!:pac:

There's been a number of crashes related to pitot tubes over the years afaik.

CommuterIE

rarnes1 wrote: »

There's been a number of crashes related to pitot tubes over the years afaik.

Yes there has, one 757 crashed because bees decided to nest in them... an Aero Peru crashed in the sea killing all on boards because selotape wasn't taken off to protect them during washing

FlutterinBantam

rarnes1 wrote: »

There's been a number of crashes related to pitot tubes over the years afaik.

Absolutely.

If those boys get frozen or blocked up is bad bad news, for sure.

turn on the heat.

cml387

The cruise phase of a long flight is very boring.
Everything is normal the controls glow comfortingly.
Then a small course deviation,nothing out of the ordinary.
A chime ,indicating an autopilot disconnection,and all hell breaks loose.
Warning messages flash up on the displays,the aircraft lurches and buckets.
Misleading readings from pilot and FO's display.
Three minutes later they're all dead.

It's a small vision of hell.

johngalway

sdonn wrote: »

Was it in daylight or night-time that the accident occurred? If you lose your instruments over a pitch black ocean, straight and level becomes next to impossible. Spatial disorientation.

My first thought about this is, is there, or if there isn't, why isn't there, some low tech gadget to keep a plane on the level at least, straight could be achieved by a compass I guess (or maybe not, what do I know).

But the level bit, some liquid inside a clear bubble, anything like that would work, just need watching.

CommuterIE

johngalway wrote: »

My first thought about this is, is there, or if there isn't, why isn't there, some low tech gadget to keep a plane on the level at least, straight could be achieved by a compass I guess (or maybe not, what do I know).

But the level bit, some liquid inside a clear bubble, anything like that would work, just need watching.

There is a free flowing compass, but how in gods name do you maintain situational awareness with that?? It doesn't tell you whether you left or right, pitching up or down...

CommuterIE

CommuterIE wrote: »

Yes there has, one 757 crashed because bees decided to nest in them... an Aero Peru crashed in the sea killing all on boards because selotape wasn't taken off to protect them during washing

Crazy that things like this could have caused such accidents. I seen a programme on the bees incident alright.

Passenger planes and selotape really shouldn't be in the same sentence together !

Wompa1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Bs7EqlLiSs

Trevor451

I thought all modern commercial aircraft have GPS that can measure airspeed?

CommuterIE

A good way to recover is to keep the engine thrust at 84% with the nose pitched up 5 degrees.... this applies to 757's and 737's... you maintain the same altitude at the same speed

lomb

CommuterIE wrote: »

Wrong!!!! To fall 38,000ft flat out in 3.5 mins would have been absolutely anyones worst nightmare.... they knew what was coming, if some didn't black out along the way down

When I went skydiving I fell 7500 foot in 40 seconds freefall, and took another 3 or 4 minutes under parachute to 'fall' the other 5500 foot.
There was no blacking out and actually I felt more alive than I ever did before...

Must have been terrifying sitting there helpless though, RIP.

johngalway

CommuterIE wrote: »

There is a free flowing compass, but how in gods name do you maintain situational awareness with that?? It doesn't tell you whether you left or right, pitching up or down...

If you think of it like being buried in an avalanche and you don't know which way is up or down, make a little space and spit on some snow, watch which way that baby hangs/drops, gravity tells you

So if you're flying at night, with no visual references, and no visible horizon, you could have an object on the (for want of a better word) dash that is clear, but has "level"

---

marked on it. This object is filled with possibly a coloured liquid. If you're turning or ascending/descending, the liquid position in relation to the level

---

mark should indicate what's happening.

Not explained terribly well, but you get the idea.

In navigation in hillwalking at night or fog/poor visibility I was taught to walk on a compass bearing. One guy watches the bearing, one watched the "level".

If nothing else, it buys you time to talk to ATC and figure out what's going on.

I haven't fully read this thread so I'm probably missing other large problems associated with the crash.

CommuterIE

lomb wrote: »

When I went skydiving I fell 7500 foot in 40 seconds freefall, and took another 3 or 4 minutes under parachute to 'fall' the other 5500 foot.
There was no blacking out and actually I felt more alive than I ever did before...

Must have been terrifying sitting there helpless though, RIP.

Agreed, the weight off the aircraft would have made them feel like a ton of bricks