Jobseeker allowance discourages people to find work?

Davekoolhill

I was interested in what people thought about yesterdays statement by the OECD, suggesting that people on certain jobseekers allowances and unemployment benefit are not encouraged to go out and find a job.

http://www.newstalk.ie/2011/news/oecds-criticism-do-you-agree/

Obviously everybody's situation is different, what do people make of it?

Im Only 71Kg

...working for nothing discourages people from going to work. i.e WPP program and CE rates nonsense.

RichardAnd

I'm not so sure that the dole really does discourage people from looking for work because I can't name anyone personally who has told me they love being on the dole.

Consider this, during the boom the dole was higher and much easier to get yet people went out and worked. It probably kept a few waster graduates and school leavers from getting off their back side but for the most part, people who could get jobs got jobs.

I also second the above poster's statement regarding internships.

syklops

Any and all of my friends who are on job seekers spend most of their time on job sites and tweaking CVs. Its not their fault few companies are hiring.

What the OECD need to do is cross reference people on Job Seekers Benefit during the boom, with the current list of recipients and put them on Work Placement schemes or stop their benefit.

podge3

The unemployment figures state that 450,000 are on the dole.

There were at least 150,000 on the dole during the boom so it would appear that 1 in 3 of the 450,000 do not want to work.

I think the entire system should be changed. Rates should be increased for those who are unemployed for a short time and reduced for those spongers who never worked.

I think the OECD said that we are one of the few countries where the dole rates do not reduce with time.

later12

podge3 wrote: »

The unemployment figures state that 450,000 are on the dole.

No, they don't. I stopped reading here.

Geuze

Unemployed, using ILO definition, = 299,000 (Oct-Dec 2010)

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/labour_market/current/qnhs.pdf


On Live Register = 440,000 (April 2011)

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/labour_market/current/lreg.pdf


In the UK, it's the other way around, there are fewer on the claimant count than actually unemployed.

sollar

I know quite a few people who are on the dole long term and seem quite happy on it. I also think that the same applies to single mothers allowance. Too many have got comfortable living of the state.

dlofnep

It might discourage some slackers, but it doesn't discourage everybody. You can't base the future of welfare, on the basis of what slackers want or don't want.

podge3

later10 wrote: »

No, they don't. I stopped reading here.

Sorry - I was wrong by 10,000 :rolleyes:.

Rubik.

podge3 wrote: »

The unemployment figures state that 450,000 are on the dole.

There were at least 150,000 on the dole during the boom so it would appear that 1 in 3 of the 450,000 do not want to work.

Even during a boom there will be time lags between losing a job and finding another one, or leaving full-time education and finding your first job. There were only around 20,000 people who would have class as long term unemployed over that period, the rest would have been on the dole for a relatively short time.

later12

podge3 wrote: »

Sorry - I was wrong by 10,000 :rolleyes:.

Multiply it. Try again...

RichardAnd

RichardAnd wrote: »

I'm not so sure that the dole really does discourage people from looking for work because I can't name anyone personally who has told me they love being on the dole

I could name quite a few who do, but that's not the point. Honestly, in the current jobs market, there is very little incentive for people at the lower end of the pay scale to work.

Based on a family of 2 adults and 2 dependent kids in a rented property, a single breadwinner would have to be paid a starting salary of close to 35k to make it even worth his/her while taking a job offer, in order to ensure no drop in living standards versus the package of 2x Dole payment, rent allowance, fuel allowance, food allowance, back to school allowance, clothes allowance, and many other possible payments that a family in that situation can qualify for, and that's not even taking into account things like cost of travel to and from a job on a daily basis, any undeclared earnings (which let's face it, are common), new pension levvies and income taxes set to come down the line, and more.

Compare that against a job on minimum wage or thereabouts, where your gross, pre-tax pay is less than 400 euros per week, and then factor in tax and costs, and take away all of the benefits outlined above which you lose if there's a breadwinner in your household, and there's just no comparison. It's not even close.

I honestly don't blame people in this situation for opting to stay on the dole. There will always be some lazy b*st*rds out there who just don't want to work, but the vast majority of people want to pay their way, as long as it's through decent, gainful employment, but people's first loyalty is to themselves and their families, not to ireland's economy. If the system has been set up to be full of loopholes and contradictions and incentivises taking the dole over going to work, then i blame the system and the lack of political will to change that, rather than blaming the most marginalised people in our society who are literally strugggling to make ends meet.

As Christy Moore sang in a song written by Paul Doran "only the very safe can talk about wrong and right".

Geuze

Excel file attached with OECD data on unemployment payments.

donkey balls

Just because someone turns a job down it should not employ that they don't want to work you have to take in the salary been offered the distance the person would need to travel tolls etc and do a CBA you could end up being cash negative.
I myself have turned down full time jobs due to the salary been less than what a burger flipper in a fast food chain would earn on a hourly basis yet my job would have alot more responsibility not to mention the costs of getting trained up €4/5k.
Put it this way one company wanted me to work for the min wage €346 per week I did two days work for another company and came out with more than what the min wage company would pay me for a weeks work go figure,I have actually seeing a large blue chip companies force paycuts of upto €20k on employees while the company post record profits in Q1 we have all taken a beating myself included by losing my job and doing temping work paying the bank charge ala USC etc but certain industries are using our current situation to exploit the normal Joe soap into working for nothing

Rubik.

Deleted User wrote: »

I could name quite a few who do, but that's not the point. Honestly, in the current jobs market, there is very little incentive for people at the lower end of the pay scale to work.

Based on a family of 2 adults and 2 dependent kids in a rented property, a single breadwinner would have to be paid a starting salary of close to 35k to make it even worth his/her while taking a job offer, in order to ensure no drop in living standards versus the package of 2x Dole payment, rent allowance, fuel allowance, food allowance, back to school allowance, clothes allowance, and many other possible payments that a family in that situation can qualify for, and that's not even taking into account things like cost of travel to and from a job on a daily basis, any undeclared earnings (which let's face it, are common), new pension levvies and income taxes set to come down the line, and more.

Compare that against a job on minimum wage or thereabouts, where your gross, pre-tax pay is less than 400 euros per week, and then factor in tax and costs, and take away all of the benefits outlined above which you lose if there's a breadwinner in your household, and there's just no comparison. It's not even close.

Only 3.4% of those on the live registor have children and are living in rental property.

Count Dooku

Im Only 71Kg wrote: »

...working for nothing discourages people from going to work. i.e WPP program and CE rates nonsense.

Main purpose of work placement program is to hide real unemployment rates

Rubik.

Rubik. wrote: »

Only 3.4% of those on the live registor have children and are living in rental property.

Accepted, but that doesn't change my point. Even based on the official figures, it is still more profitable for many people to be on the dole than in a low waged job, and that gap only increases when you factor in the realities of the situation such as non-declaration of casual earnings, registered addresses being different to actual addresses for claiming purposes, and the plethora of other loopholes in the system that there are either no resources to address, or no political will to change.

Combine that with the current tax reigime and cost of living, and it means that unless you're paid well above minimum wage, which thousands would not be, there is no real incentive to go out to work in ireland.

Furthermore, the live register figures are not an accurate representation of the real unemployment numbers in ireland. Lone parents, carers, back to education allowances, etc all affect those figures heavily to the benefit of our politicians, but that's another discussion.

Geuze

Some int'l comparisons (2007 OECD data):

NB: UI = JSB

AUSTRIA

9m of UI at 55% of former net wage, max 14750 pa

BELGIUM

UI paid with no time limit, 60 / 50% of former gross wage

No dole, as UI lasts forever

DENMARK

UI for 2yrs at 90% of former wages, max 24k pa

JSA / dole = none in Denmark

FRANCE

UI paid for 23 months at 57-75% of former wages.

JSA = 100 pw

GERMANY

UI paid for 12m at 60% of wages

JSA = 359pm = 83pw

USA

UI paid for 26-99 weeks at 50% of wages, up to 450 USD pw.

later12

Count Dooku wrote: »

Main purpose of work placement program is to hide real unemployment rates

Says who? You cannot just automatically ignore the benefit to jobseekers that improving and updating work skills and work references can provide without any basis.

smelltheglove

Voice of experience here, Mack Daddi is spot on. It is the stupid red tape in various departments that hold the hard working back. After working consistently from the age of 15 my hubbie was let go due to cut backs.

With seasonal work for me and none for him obviously we had to rely on the system during this time. (Hoping to not have to go back to that situation I tell you) Anyway, with rent allowance and jsb/a we managed to survive but whilst looking for work the only jobs he could apply for were full time min wage:eek: Working over 30 hours cuts you off from rent allowance, it does not matter if you work 29 hours and earn 500 or work 31 and earn 380 the system will not allow you to claim if you work more than 30 no matter what your earnings are. Even though he applied for many there was no response as there were so many candidates and what he had experience in he never got a look in as he did not have degrees, just been promoted up.

So put it this way, he would receive iirc around 300 a week and our rent was paid for minus the small amount we contributed (family of 4) now if he actually got a low paying job, say 400 a week, we would have had to pay full rent, in Dublin at the time 1100 out of the 1600 a month and live off 500 to pay for food, bills and whatever school costs came around... How on earth does that make sense, the system is trapping people, lift the red tape, allow rent allowance to be paid, although reduced for those on low level wage and save thousands in dole payments, possibly even increase tax income also.

Thankfully, for now, he is in a good job and money is not an issue, my work is doing quite well so fingers crossed long may it continue.

Easog

There is no incentive to work in this country. We should not be giving our tax money to those who dont earn it. Put them out on the roads picking up rubbish{God knows this country needs it}or working in hospitals.

:mad:LONG LIVE PRINCE PHILIP.

Count Dooku

later10 wrote: »

Says who? You cannot just automatically ignore the benefit to jobseekers that improving and updating work skills and work references can provide without any basis.

and discourage workers to find jobs themselves
FAS 'doing more harm than good' for job seekers
FAS recipients less likely to find work - ESRI

RichardAnd

Easog wrote: »

There is no incentive to work in this country. We should not be giving our tax money to those who dont earn it. Put them out on the roads picking up rubbish{God knows this country needs it}or working in hospitals.

:mad:LONG LIVE PRINCE PHILIP.

If you loose your job through no fault of your own, you might change your tune.

AntiRip

Easog wrote: »

There is no incentive to work in this country. We should not be giving our tax money to those who dont earn it. Put them out on the roads picking up rubbish{God knows this country needs it}or working in hospitals.

Again, another person painting 440,000 with the same brush :rolleyes:. I could say more but I'd be wasting the springs under the keys on my keyboard..

Noo

Count Dooku wrote: »

Main purpose of work placement program is to hide real unemployment rates

If you're on a WPP you're still on the live register, you get your dole every week.

Devi

RichardAnd wrote: »

If you loose your job through no fault of your own, you might change your tune.

I call this "The Other Theory of Relativity" where your opinion is relative to your place in the universe.

dan_d

Have to say, the system is definitely the problem. It works on the basis that those on it want to find work.Now admittedly, there are a small number that are on it that couldn't be a&*ed looking for work. But as of right now, the majority do want to.

I certainly think that it should reduce with time. But, again, the situation we are currently in means that some people would literally be left penniless if that happened. I myself am unemployed nearly a year. To say I have applied for everything is an understatement. I do not look at jobs in terms of "am I better off on the dole" (because in my eyes anything is better than the dole). I look at them in terms of "will they bring in enough money to pay my bills". I have concluded that I can survive on about 23k a year, absolute minimum. In the grander scheme of things, that is not a massive wage - especially not for someone with good qualifications and 5 years experience. But the number of people job hunting means that it's extremely hard to find anything. I am now applying for part-time work, minimum wage work, anything that will get me out of the house and pay me some money. And all that's coming back (assuming that people bother to reply to me) is "sorry, you don't meet our requirements". I mean, what does it take to answer a phone and file paper all day long? Or work in a shop? What requirements?:mad:

The point I am trying to make is that we have a situation whereby the system is old, creaking and very user unfriendly. And actually, this is a superb chance to reform it in a fair way, specifically because we have so many people looking for work in so many different situations. We could literally take the system apart and completely overhaul it. But it has to be an extensive process, it can't just be a "one size fits all" solution, like slashing all payments by X% or cutting people off completely. The OECD probably have a point, but I just don't think they're looking at the whole situation.And I am quite sure that there is not a politician out there with either the will or the understanding to take on the situation.

As far as I can see, FAS should be seriously downsized and cater for those with education/training/experience up to a certain level. The focus for them needs to be further education/training in computer skills/basic software etc, etc. Either the rest of FAS or a new agency needs to come on board for those who have education/training/experience above that level. One that offers practical, useful advice, more advanced training courses, possible access to 4th/5th level higher education and (if we must go the WPP route) higher skilled work placements. Preferably with a seperate section for graduates. Along with all this the SW needs to be totally reformed - reducing payments after say, 2 years (given our economic situation), everything over-hauled - rent allowance, child benefit, everything. And the SW need to take more responsibility for policing their own system, and for the love of god, would somebody with IT skills go in there and modernise what's going on???:rolleyes:

The potential for saving huge amounts of money in the long term is very large.The likelihood of any of this happening is - very small. I just don't understand why those in power can't think in straight lines and come up with practical solutions to problems, instead of going for the most complicated ones every time. I also don't understand why there is such a lack of will to just make the changes and take on the unions and the various bleeding heart societies that are out there.

later12

Count Dooku wrote: »

Originally Posted by later10
Says who? You cannot just automatically ignore the benefit to jobseekers that improving and updating work skills and work references can provide without any basis.

and discourage workers to find jobs themselves
FAS 'doing more harm than good' for job seekers
FAS recipients less likely to find work - ESRI

You clearly did not read that report, either in relation to FAS training or its micoreconometric evaluations on active employment programs, nor the recommendations of Grubb et al. outlined inside. Why do you reference the report like this? Do you think none of us have read it or something, or that we won't bother opening it?

You are confusing the NEAP engagement in itself with the training or WPP aspects. I suggest you read the report.

smelltheglove

Well said dan d!

They want to get us out of the recession and I truly believe simple changes CAN help that! Change this rent allowance issue and many more people will be able to go out and take those low paying jobs, even just to get out of the house. This will have a knock on effect..... How?

Joe gets a job in the shop in town instead of sitting at home on the dole. (Savings)
Joe spends money getting the bus / taxi to work (Money back into the system)
Joe goes to the coffee shop with all the other joes (Money back into the system)
The coffee shop needs more staff to cover demand (Jerry gets off the dole and starts working)
Being out working also helps with socialising and Joe goes to the pub for a few with all the other Joe & Jerrys)
Pub needs more staff to cope with demand (Mary gets off the dole)

Joe, Jerry and Mary could possibly still be getting rent allowance or help with their mortgage but instead of each getting 2-300 euro a week from the social welfare they are out earning it, saving the social money, paying taxes and spending money on lunch and drinks having the knock on effect of other establishments needing more workers.

Seriously, have our politicians got a clue at all...? I'm not the smartest in the world, it may not be a solution but it will certainly help the countries situation so if I can think it up why the hell can they not?

Noo

Noo wrote: »

If you're on a WPP you're still on the live register, you get your dole every week.

You're not. You have to be "actively seeking, and available for work" in order to be on the live register. Regardless of the fact that you're paid the same amount every week, they take you off the register and mark you as being busy doing something else, as if it was your choice in the first place.

That's where the beauty of these schemes are. People assume the live register figures are the total number of people who can't find a job, they're not. Government can hide you in any number of places to make sure you don't make the figures look as bad as they really are.

dan_d wrote: »

I just don't understand why those in power can't think in straight lines and come up with practical solutions to problems, instead of going for the most complicated ones every time. I also don't understand why there is such a lack of will to just make the changes and take on the unions and the various bleeding heart societies that are out there.

This is the crux of the problem, and what got us to the point where we are now as well as what has us paralysed into not being able to do anything about it. There is no political will because there are too many vested interests to appease, and our politicians are fundamentally most concerned with their long term survival, rather than effecting real change in the 4 or 5 years available to them and being unpopular for it in the circles that have their fingers in the pies. Nobody will make the hard decisions, take on the unions, put money into finding out who the genuinely hard up welfare cases are, and who the dole bludgers are and cutting benefits for those who don't work, or forcing them to work voluntarily to pay for their dole.

Everybody is acting in their own interest first. Nobody is acting primarily in the interest of the state.

If i had a choice, i would pay people their full entitlement to dole based on their PAYE stamps and previous employment history, and once that has expired, and they drop on to Unemployment Assistance they are put to work in the public sector, doing work that is suited to their level of experience (properly supervised) maybe 10-20 hours per week in order to save the state some money for it's social welfare spend. It could be road sweeping, records administration, front of house work, anything, based on a work placement suitability assessment. The longer people had spent on social welfare, the more hours per week they would have to work for the state, which creates a saving in the public sector, and does away with the option to sit on your hole and get free money all your life.

If the unions or anybody else had a problem with it-too bad.

We have to get rid of this "getting something for nothing" mentality in Ireland. It is killing us, and we need our politicians to have some balls and get moving on it NOW.

Count Dooku

later10 wrote: »

I suggest you read the report.

I suggest you check yourself for failure of WPP

ONLY one out of every 230 people on the dole is currently working under a scheme set up by the previous government to tackle joblessness among graduates and the unemployed.

The Fas work-placement scheme, which was launched in May 2009, allows graduates and the unemployed to take up an unpaid work placement while continuing to receive the dole.

Although there are currently 440,000 people on the dole, only 1,876 of these are on placements under the scheme.

Since it was launched, 3,875 people took up placements -- but many of these have since dropped off. The maximum time that can be spent on any one placement is nine months.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/fas-workplacement-scheme-finds-job-for-1-in-230-2647500.html

later12

Deleted User wrote: »

You're not. You have to be "actively seeking, and available for work" in order to be on the live register. Regardless of the fact that you're paid the same amount every week, they take you off the register and mark you as being busy doing something else, as if it was your choice in the first place.

The WPP participants are not on the register, but the above is not completely correct. The live register is an administrative count of all the relevant claimants, including those who are in work of some sort, although they may simply be underemployed, casual or seasonal workers.

later12

Count Dooku wrote: »

I suggest you check yourself for failure of WPP

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/fas-workplacement-scheme-finds-job-for-1-in-230-2647500.html

First you misread the ESRI report (or did not read it at all, which is more likely) and now you are apparently misreading this.

One in 213 means that there are 400,000 people on the dole (according to the journalist, that is not entirely accurate, but lets ignore it) and only 1876 have taken up placements.

400,000/ 1,876 = 213

All it means is that the work placement presently has a low take-up among the unemployed, not that it doesn't help find jobs or promote upskilling for the unemployed.

I seriously suggest you read your links twice before you post them.

thebman

I think we should introduce a volunteer community initiative program run entirely on a volunteer basis but initialised by the government to get it kicked off.

We all know that there are plenty of people on the dole who do not want to work. Most want to however. Such a program would give people on welfare who want to work a way of distinguishing themselves from the bums.

Simple things like street cleaning and tidy town work. It doesn't have to be in the area they are looking for a job in really but just something to show that sitting on their rear at home all day isn't their idea of a lifestyle choice.

dan_d

Deleted User wrote: »

If i had a choice, i would pay people their full entitlement to dole based on their PAYE stamps and previous employment history, and once that has expired, and they drop on to Unemployment Assistance they are put to work in the public sector, doing work that is suited to their level of experience (properly supervised) maybe 10-20 hours per week in order to save the state some money for it's social welfare spend. It could be road sweeping, records administration, front of house work, anything, based on a work placement suitability assessment. The longer people had spent on social welfare, the more hours per week they would have to work for the state, which creates a saving in the public sector, and does away with the option to sit on your hole and get free money all your life.

Have to say, as someone who is unemployed, I'd grab that with 2 hands. I've steered clear of some suggestions which do actually involve manual work and as a girl, I would question whether I'd actually be able to do some of it or not (and before I get the comments about breaking nails, and should just take what you get, I've spent the last few years on site so I'm not afraid of hard work - but there are certain things that women just won't be able to do)...but front of house secretarial work, records admin, even tidying up flowerbeds and the like at the entrances to towns - fine. Anything to get out of the house.

Why aren't we all running the country again??;)

Davekoolhill

I think that is the main problem people have. It's probably unfair to say that those that receive allowance do not try for jobs because plenty of people are in a very difficult situation and most people who are unemployed would much rather be working.

lacyfrise

im on the dole but constantly am out searching for work, ya im sure there are a few that don't get off their butt n search but the fact is it's an emplyers market, i know im always either under qualified or over qualified, and i would gladly take any kind of job if it ment getting out of the house and doing something

dan_d

dan_d wrote: »

Have to say, as someone who is unemployed, I'd grab that with 2 hands

I'm not unemployed, but I have been, and if I was in that situation again so would I, and it's refreshing to see some others who feel the same.

Aside from purely selfish motives like networking your way into paid positions or getting work experience or the like, this would give people who want to work and contribute to the society that is paying their bills a huge self confidence and morale boost, and at the same time identify and marginalize the dossers who don't want to work so the system could concentrate it's resources on them and step up the pressure on them to find a job, which has to be a good thing.