The Real Reason for NATO Attacking Libya ?

Jonny7

Daithi 1 wrote: »

And I explained that that footage is null and void, you agreed.

Al Jazeera has been compromised by the CIA.

I didn't agree.. what do you mean by "null and void" - do you mean faked?

Brown Bomber

Jonny7 wrote: »

Mistaken again or just lying?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3LU3fR5PKk

She's not the only reporter that did this, there were several from Voltaire net who were pulling the same ****.

Jonny7, were you mistaken or just lying`? I'd say mistaken.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74060096&postcount=13

You made such a song and dance about these "fake news" reports.

Jonny7 wrote: »

2500 videos that can't find a single good word about the US or Israel or the banking system.. hmm

Hey kids!

Tired of the world news not conforming to your own crazy opinions?

Well wait no longer! Make your own fake news! no real journalists, no credibility, no proper sources, no accountability, no watchdogs, no objectivity..we put it all on youtube!, other conspiracy theories will treat it like gospel!

Tired of using logic in debates or having no opinion on something you know nothing about?

well wait no longer! we give you PressTV, and Russia Today, English speaking propaganda direct from Putin and Ahmadinejad! Available on youtube and can be linked right into your internet debate without you ever having to use a single brain cell!

Remember, act today! don't think, dont check sources, just post those videos! and remember the sheeple aren't gonna wake themselves up

Sadly you were completely wrong to dismiss The Real News Network and ended up laughing out of the other side of your face. http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...-says-1.395354

The reason I bring this up again is that you seem to be doing the exact same thing again here.

Daithi 1

Jonny7

Daithi 1 wrote: »

Surely someone can back up her story that that the footage was faked?

Daithi 1

Jonny7 wrote: »

Surely someone can back up her story that that the footage was faked?

Maybe it was faked, maybe she was misinformed, maybe she got it wrong. It's easy to judge through a computer screen. I don't get the feeling she's an out and out liar.

davoxx

Jonny7 wrote: »

Surely someone can back up her story that that the footage was faked?

would you believe them if they did or just dismiss it as activist nonsense?

jackiebaron

davoxx wrote: »

would you believe them if they did or just dismiss it as activist nonsense?

Well the one thing he'd never do is admit he was wrong. :pac:

Jonny7

Daithi 1 wrote: »

Maybe it was faked, maybe she was misinformed, maybe she got it wrong. It's easy to judge through a computer screen. I don't get the feeling she's an out and out liar.

There's no "maybe" about it, it wasn't faked.

Even Press TV ran the footage.

Daithi 1

Jonny7 wrote: »

There's no "maybe" about it, it wasn't faked.

Even Press TV ran the real footage.

The footage came from Al Jazeera.

Jonny7

Daithi 1 wrote: »

The footage came from Al Jazeera.

Here is Press TV, are they fooled by fake footage here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAU48xDdCjA

That's one hell of an impressive set

davoxx

Jonny7 wrote: »

Here is Press TV, are they fooled by fake footage here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAU48xDdCjA

That's one hell of an impressive set

what is your point? it has been established that the report took place earlier to this video, and that tripoli was not captured 100% ...

i can't believe you are still trying to push her report as complete nonsense ..

Jonny7

davoxx wrote: »

what is your point? it has been established that the report took place earlier to this video, and that tripoli was not captured 100% ...

i can't believe you are still trying to push her report as complete nonsense ..

I am addressing the poster who "maybe" believes Lizzie's assumption that the Al Jazeera report from Green Square on 21st August is somehow fake and staged. Firstly the footage has to be proven to be fake, which is impossible because there is footage from other news agencies on the night, and the following days.

Here's another report from Lizzie on the night
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SifGPkmEc4I

"They don't have any popular support"
"They don't have any large numbers inside the capital"
"Doesn't look as if it will last very long"
"The army is very much ready"

In this report she's changed her tune, no direct lies, but again misreporting the situation. I was watching the whole thing live from as many diff sources as possible nonstop for most of the night.

Daithi 1

Jonny7 wrote: »

I am addressing the poster who "maybe" believes Lizzie's assumption that the Al Jazeera report from Green Square on 21st August is somehow fake and staged. Firstly the footage has to be proven to be fake, which is impossible because there is footage from other news agencies on the night, and the following days.

Here's another report from Lizzie on the night
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SifGPkmEc4I

"They don't have any popular support"
"They don't have any large numbers inside the capital"
"Doesn't look as if it will last very long"
"The army is very much ready"

In this report she's changed her tune, no direct lies, but again misreporting the situation. I was watching the whole thing live from as many diff sources as possible nonstop for most of the night.

So, a couple thousand civilians went to Green Square to celebrate, in terms of popular support, that's really not much at all. It's nothing in comparison to the 1.7 million who went there to support Gaddafi.
And how many insurgents were in the Capital ? Probably not that many. NATO had been paving the way for them, bombing the **** out of everything in their path.

I don't think there was a single reporter or civilian anywhere who wasn't surprised how quickly the Gaddafi forces fell. Why should it be any different for Lizzie Phelan ? Many might have assumed that the insurgents would have taken a good beating and it wouldn't have lasted very long.

Weren't you surprised how quickly the fell ?

Jonny7

Daithi 1 wrote: »

So, a couple thousand civilians went to Green Square to celebrate, in terms of popular support, that's really not much at all. It's nothing in comparison to the 1.7 million who went there to support Gaddafi.
And how many insurgents were in the Capital ? Probably not that many. NATO had been paving the way for them, bombing the **** out of everything in their path.

The pro-Gaddafi rallies were generally attended out of fear, although some were genuinely loyal to Gaddafi, privately most Libyans just wanted rid of him after 42 years. Esp. in the East of the country, Misrata, Benghazi, and the very West, where he was least popular, and suffered the most during the initial protests in mid-February

Of the rebels in Tripoli itself, its hard to put a figure on it, personally I would say no more than a few hundred at maximum, but weapons and intel had been smuggled to them for weeks preceding the attack as part of the plan, so that they would rise up when there was a certain signal - call to prayers, and the attack on Gaddafi's brother-in-law intelligence chief Senussi's headquarters (Lizzie's friend). Tripoli actually fell very quickly, with pockets of resistance, many sub-Saharan mercenaries were captured fighting alongside pro-Gaddafi loyalists, which initiated a prolonged period of reprisals against any black males in the country (that still continues to this day).

NATO bombing unfortunately claimed around 75 - 100 innocent lives from March until August, the most infamous of which was the strike on a Gaddafi compound, and the largest of which was probably Majer (around 30 civilians suspected killed, however authorities claimed 85), Libyan state TV would always claim much higher figures, as did the NTC (propaganda on both sides). During the early part of Western intervention (March to April) NATO took great pains to avoid civilian casualties at all costs, going for purely military targets, however with the mission becoming increasingly a stalemate, mission creep and mis-communication led to rebels being killed by NATO aircraft, and civilians being killed and injured from several airstrikes.

Summary of incidents from Wikipedia
On April 1, NATO airstrikes killed 14 rebel fighters and wounded seven more on the frontline at Brega.[25]
On April 7, news reports surfaced that NATO bombers killed 10–13 rebels and wounded 14–22 near the eastern oil town of Brega.[26]
On April 27, at least one NATO warplane accidentally attacked the Libyan rebel forces position near the besieged city of Misrata, killing 12 fighters and wounding five others.[27]
On May 13, 11 religious imams were claimed to be killed and 50 others injured when a NATO airstrike struck a large gathering in Brega praying for peace in conflict-ridden Libya.[28]
On June 19, at least nine civilians were killed in a NATO airstrike on Tripoli. Reporters saw bodies being pulled out of a destroyed building. NATO acknowledged being responsible for the civilians' deaths. [29]
On June 20, The old Libyan regime claimed that 15 civilians including three children had been killed by a NATO airstrike on Sorman.[30]
On July 25, 11 civilians were claimed killed[31] by a NATO airstrike on a medical clinic in Zliten.[32]
On July 30, 3 journalists were killed and 15 wounded in NATO attacks against the Libyan state TV Al-Jamahiriya, which continued to broadcast after the attacks.[33]
On August 9, the Libyan government claimed that 85 civilians were killed in NATO airstrikes on Majer, a village near Zliten.[34] A NATO spokesman confirmed that they bombed Zliten on August 8 and 9, [35] but said that he was unable to confirm the casualties. The Libyan government declared three days of national mourning. Reporters were later taken to a hospital where they saw at least 30 dead bodies including the bodies of at least two young children. The Libyan government claimed that the bodies of others killed in the airstrikes were taken to other hospitals.[36] Commander of the NATO military mission in Libya, Lieutenant General Charles Bouchard said "I cannot believe that 85 civilians were present when we struck in the wee hours of the morning, and given our intelligence. But I cannot assure you that there were none at all

NATO have a disgraceful track record in Afghanistan (several hundred a year directly and indirectly as a result of NATO and US strikes), they were much more cautious in dealing with Libya, restricted to air only, with some special forces on the ground mainly providing logistics, training, coordination, etc.

Civilians killed during the protests and before UN/NATO intervention, incredibly hard to gauge, a summary from Wikipedia gives the following
On February 22, the International Coalition Against War Criminals gave an estimate that 519 people had died, 3,980 were wounded and over 1,500 were missing.[5]
Human Rights Watch has estimated that at least 233 people had been killed by February 22.[6]
On February 23, Italian Minister of Foreign Affairs Franco Frattini stated that according to his information 1,000 people had died so far.[7][8]
On February 24, the IFHR said that 130 soldiers had been executed in Benghazi and Bayda, after they mutinied and sided with the protesters.[9]
On February 25, Navi Pillay, the High Commissioner for Human Rights of the United Nations, said that reports indicated that "thousands may have been killed or injured".[10]
On March 20, Abdul Hafiz Ghoga, spokesman for the National Transitional Council, stated that "more than 8,000" people are killed as a result of the uprising.

ed2hands

Reuters today:

Libya's former rebels are holding some 7,000 detainees, many of them sub-Saharan Africans, without access to due legal process after the country's civil war, U.N. chief Ban Ki-moon said in a new report.
Ban cited reports that some detainees had been tortured, that some people had been targeted because of their skin color, that women were held under male supervision without female guards and that children were being detained alongside adults.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/23/us-libya-un-idUSTRE7AM2U020111123

So why there was only a couple of thousand on the streets compared to the 1.7 million?
Most are quite terrified i'd imagine. You saw what they did to Gadaffi.

FionnK86

Yeah but whats the point in all the luxury if your leader might come to your house at night and electrocute your balls?

weisses

FionnK86 wrote: »

Yeah but whats the point in all the luxury if your leader might come to your house at night and electrocute your balls?

I know a few places in Amsterdam were you have to pay loads of money to get a treatment like that

FionnK86

weisses wrote: »

I know a few places in Amsterdam were you have to pay loads of money to get a treatment like that

Brilliant:D

Daithi 1

Jonny7 wrote: »

The pro-Gaddafi rallies were generally attended out of fear, although some were genuinely loyal to Gaddafi, privately most Libyans just wanted rid of him after 42 years. Esp. in the East of the country, Misrata, Benghazi, and the very West, where he was least popular, and suffered the most during the initial protests in mid-February

Of the rebels in Tripoli itself, its hard to put a figure on it, personally I would say no more than a few hundred at maximum, but weapons and intel had been smuggled to them for weeks preceding the attack as part of the plan, so that they would rise up when there was a certain signal - call to prayers, and the attack on Gaddafi's brother-in-law intelligence chief Senussi's headquarters (Lizzie's friend). Tripoli actually fell very quickly, with pockets of resistance, many sub-Saharan mercenaries were captured fighting alongside pro-Gaddafi loyalists, which initiated a prolonged period of reprisals against any black males in the country (that still continues to this day).

NATO bombing unfortunately claimed around 75 - 100 innocent lives from March until August, the most infamous of which was the strike on a Gaddafi compound, and the largest of which was probably Majer (around 30 civilians suspected killed, however authorities claimed 85), Libyan state TV would always claim much higher figures, as did the NTC (propaganda on both sides). During the early part of Western intervention (March to April) NATO took great pains to avoid civilian casualties at all costs, going for purely military targets, however with the mission becoming increasingly a stalemate, mission creep and mis-communication led to rebels being killed by NATO aircraft, and civilians being killed and injured from several airstrikes.

Summary of incidents from Wikipedia
On April 1, NATO airstrikes killed 14 rebel fighters and wounded seven more on the frontline at Brega.[25]
On April 7, news reports surfaced that NATO bombers killed 10–13 rebels and wounded 14–22 near the eastern oil town of Brega.[26]
On April 27, at least one NATO warplane accidentally attacked the Libyan rebel forces position near the besieged city of Misrata, killing 12 fighters and wounding five others.[27]
On May 13, 11 religious imams were claimed to be killed and 50 others injured when a NATO airstrike struck a large gathering in Brega praying for peace in conflict-ridden Libya.[28]
On June 19, at least nine civilians were killed in a NATO airstrike on Tripoli. Reporters saw bodies being pulled out of a destroyed building. NATO acknowledged being responsible for the civilians' deaths. [29]
On June 20, The old Libyan regime claimed that 15 civilians including three children had been killed by a NATO airstrike on Sorman.[30]
On July 25, 11 civilians were claimed killed[31] by a NATO airstrike on a medical clinic in Zliten.[32]
On July 30, 3 journalists were killed and 15 wounded in NATO attacks against the Libyan state TV Al-Jamahiriya, which continued to broadcast after the attacks.[33]
On August 9, the Libyan government claimed that 85 civilians were killed in NATO airstrikes on Majer, a village near Zliten.[34] A NATO spokesman confirmed that they bombed Zliten on August 8 and 9, [35] but said that he was unable to confirm the casualties. The Libyan government declared three days of national mourning. Reporters were later taken to a hospital where they saw at least 30 dead bodies including the bodies of at least two young children. The Libyan government claimed that the bodies of others killed in the airstrikes were taken to other hospitals.[36] Commander of the NATO military mission in Libya, Lieutenant General Charles Bouchard said "I cannot believe that 85 civilians were present when we struck in the wee hours of the morning, and given our intelligence. But I cannot assure you that there were none at all

NATO have a disgraceful track record in Afghanistan (several hundred a year directly and indirectly as a result of NATO and US strikes), they were much more cautious in dealing with Libya, restricted to air only, with some special forces on the ground mainly providing logistics, training, coordination, etc.

Civilians killed during the protests and before UN/NATO intervention, incredibly hard to gauge, a summary from Wikipedia gives the following
On February 22, the International Coalition Against War Criminals gave an estimate that 519 people had died, 3,980 were wounded and over 1,500 were missing.[5]
Human Rights Watch has estimated that at least 233 people had been killed by February 22.[6]
On February 23, Italian Minister of Foreign Affairs Franco Frattini stated that according to his information 1,000 people had died so far.[7][8]
On February 24, the IFHR said that 130 soldiers had been executed in Benghazi and Bayda, after they mutinied and sided with the protesters.[9]
On February 25, Navi Pillay, the High Commissioner for Human Rights of the United Nations, said that reports indicated that "thousands may have been killed or injured".[10]
On March 20, Abdul Hafiz Ghoga, spokesman for the National Transitional Council, stated that "more than 8,000" people are killed as a result of the uprising.

Hold on there for a minute. Were discussing Lizzie Phelan. I think I have said enough to clear her name and I would like some addmittance from you that you were harsh in your judgement calling her an outright liar before we move on.

And how do we know the folks in Green Square wernt there out of fear ? lol

There are no weapons being fired here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUjVjdh5kUU

davoxx

shadowninty, what's the story? any chance you could answer my point in http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75615525&postcount=572 ?

shadowninty

davoxx wrote: »

shadowninty, what's the story? any chance you could answer my point in http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75615525&postcount=572 ?

Bah, I dont plan to reply, no point discussing things tbh, look at the last page :pac:

Daithi 1

Chicken

davoxx

Jonny7 wrote: »

I am addressing the poster who "maybe" believes Lizzie's assumption that the Al Jazeera report from Green Square on 21st August is somehow fake and staged. Firstly the footage has to be proven to be fake, which is impossible because there is footage from other news agencies on the night, and the following days.

Here's another report from Lizzie on the night
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SifGPkmEc4I

"They don't have any popular support"
"They don't have any large numbers inside the capital"
"Doesn't look as if it will last very long"
"The army is very much ready"

In this report she's changed her tune, no direct lies, but again misreporting the situation. I was watching the whole thing live from as many diff sources as possible nonstop for most of the night.

which sources were these? since you watched as many different sources as possible, perhaps you could post some links to some, and not the same scenes with different commentary?

ok, i'm baffled ... you claim she is wrong, you claim she is friends with someone because she is in the background in another report, you claim she lied ...
but each time you have been proven wrong, or shown that your assumption is false and based on you prejudice against anti-nato activists ....

i do love your assertion with no facts ...

Jonny7 wrote: »

The pro-Gaddafi rallies were generally attended out of fear, although some were genuinely loyal to Gaddafi, privately most Libyans just wanted rid of him after 42 years. Esp. in the East of the country, Misrata, Benghazi, and the very West, where he was least popular, and suffered the most during the initial protests in mid-February

what was it that you claimed about Lizzie Phelan regarding bad reporting?

some facts to back up your nonsense please ...

Jonny7

Daithi 1 wrote: »

Hold on there for a minute. Were discussing Lizzie Phelan. I think I have said enough to clear her name and I would like some addmittance from you that you were harsh in your judgement calling her an outright liar before we move on.

Where were you referring to Lizzie when you said the below?

So, a couple thousand civilians went to Green Square to celebrate, in terms of popular support, that's really not much at all. It's nothing in comparison to the 1.7 million who went there to support Gaddafi.
And how many insurgents were in the Capital ? Probably not that many. NATO had been paving the way for them, bombing the **** out of everything in their path.

No, I was responding to it because its incorrect and I was just giving you proper information on the situation.

Regards Lizzie, I have pointed out her misreporting, her actual lies, her lack of objectivity, her bias, her connections to the Gaddafi regime, her past activism. If you still "believe" in this person you've probably never heard of before, then must have a soft spot for blonde reporters

And how do we know the folks in Green Square wernt there out of fear ? lol

For the same reason North Koreans go to mass rallies. They aren't forced, but its very well advised to go. In harsh oppressive regimes fear is the way it works. The Iraqi people didn't actually like Saddam, but being openly, or even passively against him was a bad idea for them and their families.

Libya wasn't as close to North Korea for that kind of control, but the internal security apparatus was huge, and there could always be consequences for any sign of dissent, even as small as not attending a rally.

davoxx

shadowninty wrote: »

Bah, I dont plan to reply, no point discussing things tbh, look at the last page :pac:

you made an insulting claim about me (and my like?) and don't even have the decency to "discuss" it? regardless of anything else, it shows an extremely poor character ...

ed2hands

Jonny7 wrote: »

...Libya wasn't as close to North Korea for that kind of control...

Quite right John.:o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17H0pG7Yxw8

davoxx

Jonny7 wrote: »

Regards Lizzie, I have pointed out her misreporting, her actual lies, her lack of objectivity, her bias, her connections to the Gaddafi regime, her past activism.

that's not exactly true now is it? you've pointed out an incorrect assumption, it was corrected, you raised her past as an activist, it was shown to be irrelevant, you then claimed she was a close personal friend of someone in the regime, when that was point out as an unfounded assumption, you present a video report with her (who is a reporter) in the background with i'd imagine other reporters ...

seems like your the master of misreporting here and are projecting your propensity to exaggerate and make false claims based on your prejudice ...

Jonny7 wrote: »

If you still "believe" in this person you've probably never heard of before, then must have a soft spot for blonde reporters

i've never heard of you before, and all you've shown is that you think all blonde reporters are liars ... why should i believe you? hint: some relevant evidence ...

Jonny7

ed2hands wrote: »

Quite right John.:o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17H0pG7Yxw8

Aahh cool video, seen it a few times before, Ed who made and edited that video?

ed2hands

Jonny7 wrote: »

Aahh cool video, seen it a few times before, Ed who made and edited that video?

Nobody you'd approve of Jonny.

Jonny7

ed2hands wrote: »

Nobody you'd approve of Jonny.

Ahh you know me too well Ed.

At least its slightly better quality than this.. just about

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqhXAVU7PMA