Gender and Unisex Toilets

ztoical

Last night I went to a presentation by Dr Mary M Talbot whose the author of several academic textbooks on Language and Gender but this talk was for her first piece of creative writing a graphic novel called Dotter of his fathers eyes written by Mary Talbot and illustrated by her husband Byran Talbot [who would be a very well known and award winning comic book artist] The book deals with the writers up bringing and relationship with her father who was a Joycean scholar and contrasted with the life of Lucia, the daughter of James Joyce.

She showed several pages from the book and one jumped out at me and made me think of a recent thread on this forum. It was dealing with her earlier years in the north of england and growing up in a large family and how she didn't become aware of the idea of gender and how the genders were segregated until she started school as at home they were all just children and not boys and girls. She had a wonderfully illustrated page of this young girl standing in front of the schools bathrooms with the giant "Boys' and 'Girls' written above two doors. It reminded me of the recent thread which was related to Transgender individuals and the use of bathrooms and there were several comments regarding places having Unisex bathrooms and there seemed to be very mixed with people if they would use a unisex bathroom or not.

So I wanted to see what the Ladies Lounge Ladies views are on firstly using Unisex bathrooms now as an adult (just to note based on earlier threads on public toilets in this forum it appears alot of people have issues using public toilet so if people could be clear if they really have an issue with unisex bathrooms or public bathrooms in general) and also when it comes to kids? At what age do people start to feel the genders should be segregated when it comes to restrooms if ever?

There is also the idea Talbot put forward regarding the idea of segregation to the genders in primary school and I'm wondering if people noticed this with their own eduction. I mean I remember my first 3 odd years in primary school which was mixed [after 1st year it was girls only] where I'd come from a playschool were everyone just played together and there was no distinction between boys and girls to starting school and suddenly having this big divide put in place - the boys sat on one side and the girls on the other,the girls had to wear skirts and boys pants and the girls did knitting while the boys got to go play football [this is the late 80's BTW not the 1950s ] Is there really that big a divide between the genders or is it more something we've created?

Mallei

Having worked as a cleaner in a boys' school and therefore seen the appalling state that the toilets were left in, I'm completely and utterly against the idea of unisex toilets.

I like my bathrooms left without graffiti scrawled across the walls and urine across the seats and floor, personally.

ztoical

Mallei wrote: »

Having worked as a cleaner in a boys' school and therefore seen the appalling state that the toilets were left in, I'm completely and utterly against the idea of unisex toilets.

I like my bathrooms left without graffiti scrawled across the walls and urine across the seats and floor, personally.

Can't comment on boys bathrooms in schools as I went to an all girls school from 1st class onwards but I found the toilets weren't overly clean [come secondary school it wasn't just urine you'd find across seats] and there was plenty of graffiti. I also find now as adult that womens loos tend to be alot worse then the mens.

What age are we talking for the boys school? I can't see small boys leaving graffiti everywhere...maybe peeing a little as they are just young kids but the girls would also have plenty of accidents. In my primary school the younger kids had different loos to the older kids with smaller loos lower to the ground but they still had boys and girls which I don't think was needed for kids who are 4/5/6.

The_Morrigan

I'm not against unisex toilets, however in some situations they are not ideal but that is due to social conventions.

For instance, I don't think it would be appropriate in mixed secondary schools, especially in the first few years when the awkwardness of puberty would just be unbearable to deal with for both sexes.

The structure of the toilets would also be important. In our building the toilets on one floor have solid walls, so less noise emissions, more privacy etc. This has good and bad consequences - less likely for bullies to peer over partitions/under doors, but harder for teachers for deal with horny teenagers going into the toilets for a quickie!

Eve_Dublin

Its very hip 'n' trendy to have unisex toilets here in Madrid and I've no problem with it at all as long as there's cubicles. I'm not the kind to spend hours in the toilet at the mirror fixing myself, so I wouldn't feel uncomfortable personally but I can imagine plenty of women would. I think that's what might turn them off the idea...men finding out what goes on behind the scenes. Women use public bathrooms as more than just a place to do your business.

I think I might have felt differently in my late teens/early 20s though (I'm thinking the toilets in a bar or club here). Going to the toilet was something of a ritual on a night out for my female friends and I. We'd go in 2s and 3s and I spent a bit more time in there than I do now. We'd bring our drinks in and have a bit of a "time out" from the madness outside and have a chat about what was going on, have a laugh and that often involved chatting about a guy you liked outside, so privacy was needed. It was our sanctuary.

I think a lot of women as adults still feel that way.

I also remember having my head stuck down a toilet getting sick from drinking too much back then :rolleyes: and I don't think I would've wanted any guy to see that.

In school...hmmm. I spent so little time in the toilet as a girl in primary that it wouldn't have made a difference. Secondary school was a different story. I'd go in there and check I looked decent and again, have chats with female friends and I spent an inordinate amount of time discussing fellas back then as far as I remember. As well as that, I think it has to be taken into account that perhaps teenagers would feel uncomfortable buying sanitary pads (Dr Whites! Massive nappy things! No tampons in my day in a Catholic school...god forbid!) in front of other boys. I also think urinals couldn't be installed into unisex toilets at that age as I'm sure the boys would feel self concious. As kids though, I don't see a problem personally. Doubt it'll ever happen though.

parker kent

Mallei wrote: »

Having worked as a cleaner in a boys' school and therefore seen the appalling state that the toilets were left in, I'm completely and utterly against the idea of unisex toilets.

I like my bathrooms left without graffiti scrawled across the walls and urine across the seats and floor, personally.

I could say the same about girls toilets having worked as a cleaner in UCD. Kids and adults of both sexes have more than enough messy behaviours.

But on topic, I think in secondary schools there are pretty of valid reasons for segregation in toilets.

Stheno

Where I work we have two single loos, well shower rooms more like, one marked for blokes, one for women, but if the guys loo is busy they use the womens, there are more mein and women. Only problem is their failure to use the air freshener after a night of Guinness

Shared loos with cubicles and urinals I'd not be so keen on.

parker kent

Stheno wrote: »

Shared loos with cubicles and urinals I'd not be so keen on.

No that just wouldn't work at all. Always feel a bit awkward if a cleaner is a woman and walks in as I'm at a urinal.

doctor evil

I prefer gendered loos myself. I have brothers and I know what state it can be afterwards. I also think that a lot of men wouldn't be too comfortable with sanitary bins etc

In primary school it was mixed and just the loos were segregrated.

Aoifey!

I don't think I'd mind mixed loos too much if it was all cubicles and no urinals, that would get a bit uncomfortable for both parties.

But I'd still rather seperate loos. I would say a lot of men would be very uncomfortable with sanitary bins. Mens toilets also tend to be much dirty than womens in my experience. They both have graffiti, but in terms of pee on/around the toilet (especially if alcohol is involved) mens seem to win hands down.

I can't see many places in Ireland making a move towards same sex toilets anytime soon.

jill_valentine

I used to work somewhere with mixed loos, and oddly enough, I think it helped keep things nice and informal. So, yeah, it's grand.

diddlybit

I'd have no problem with unisex toilets, any issues with cleanliness, men or women, probably suggests that we need a radical overhaul in toilet hygiene education. (Or just create it full stop. )

When I moved back to Ireland when I was seven, I found the gender segregation almost impossible to fathom. What suprised me more than the physical seperation, was the disdain with which boys and girls referred to one another. All of which was justifiable in young heads because they thought that the genders were so radically different to one another, like aliens from another planet. Where such ingrained ideas come from at such an early age confounds me.

I'm laughing at the ideas of "men's toilets would be filthier" considering the state of women's, and the stories from people who have cleaned up after both

syklops

In the last office I worked in there were circa 70 men and about 3 women. Conversely, the womens loos, had 4 cubicles, and the mens loos had 3 cubicles and 2 urinals.

It would have made much more sense from a logistics point of view to have a communal area with the hand basins and 7 cubicles.

That said, these cubicles, were brick and mortar cubicles with proper doors. So once inside you were perfectly concealed inside, with as much privacy as you would want.

I would not be impressed with unisex toilets if there were the paper thin cubicle things we have in the current office.

cdaly_

doctor evil wrote: »

I also think that a lot of men wouldn't be too comfortable with sanitary bins etc

Aoifey! wrote: »

I would say a lot of men would be very uncomfortable with sanitary bins.

What's to be uncomfortable with? I would see them in the wheelchair loo when I'd bring the kids in ('cos there's room in there to deal with three young kids) and they're just a blue bin with a lid...

Eve_Dublin

diddlybit wrote: »

When I moved back to Ireland when I was seven, I found the gender segregation almost impossible to fathom. What suprised me more than the physical seperation, was the disdain with which boys and girls referred to one another. All of which was justifiable in young heads because they thought that the genders were so radically different to one another, like aliens from another planet. Where such ingrained ideas come from at such an early age confounds me.

This is interesting and something never realised growing up. It just seemed perfectly normal. I think I realised only recently how this differs in other countries. I was having a discussion with one of my classes that I teach English to here in Madrid and the word, "cooties" came up (just in case you don't know, it's an Americanism for the "germs" that little girls believe little boys have when they're very young). I tried to explain the concept to them but they told me that this idea never existed when they were young and doesn't exist among their children. They're an advanced class and although they understood the idea, they couldn't relate. It was a strange moment of realisation for me when I realised how we viewed boys as kids. I thought most of them were germ-ridden, smelly and dirty and not to be associated with.

I wonder is this something we subconciously bring with us as we grow older? It might explain the insulting that goes on between the sexes on Boards....

syklops

cdaly_ wrote: »

What's to be uncomfortable with? I would see them in the wheelchair loo when I'd bring the kids in ('cos there's room in there to deal with three young kids) and they're just a blue bin with a lid...

Some men, possibly as a result of some kind of segregation as a child, who knows?, have irrational attitudes with regard to sanitary bins, towels etc. For some, even seeing the blue bin and knowing what it is for make them uncomfortable. It sounds silly, I know, but it is in fact a reality.

syklops

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

This is interesting and something never realised growing up. It just seemed perfectly normal. I think I realised only recently how this differs in other countries. I was having a discussion with one of my classes that I teach English to here in Madrid and the word, "cooties" came up (just in case you don't know, it's an Americanism for the "germs" that little girls believe little boys have when they're very young). I tried to explain the concept to them but they told me that this idea never existed when they were young and doesn't exist among their children. They're an advanced class and although they understood the idea, they couldn't relate. It was a strange moment of realisation for me when I realised how we viewed boys as kids. I thought most of them were germ-ridden, smelly and dirty and not to be associated with.

I wonder is this something we subconciously bring with us as we grow older? It might explain the insulting that goes on between the sexes on Boards....

Interesting. I wonder is there any kind of a link between how boys and girls view each other in Spain, and Spanish societies view of sex, and by extension, age of consult laws. I believe in Spain it is just 13. An age which is either seen has progressive or draconian, depending who you talk to, here in Ireland.

I'd also be interested in finding out if this clean and unclean attitude is more prevalent among people from hot countries, and the unclean attitude be more prevalent in wet, damp countries such as our own. I am ruling out religious influences because Spain is quite a religious country, with Catholicism being the front runner.

Eve_Dublin

syklops wrote: »

Interesting. I wonder is there any kind of a link between how boys and girls view each other in Spain, and Spanish societies view of sex, and by extension, age of consult laws. I believe in Spain it is just 13. An age which is either seen has progressive or draconian, depending who you talk to, here in Ireland.

I'd also be interested in finding out if this clean and unclean attitude is more prevalent among people from hot countries, and the unclean attitude be more prevalent in wet, damp countries such as our own. I am ruling out religious influences because Spain is quite a religious country, with Catholicism being the front runner.

Right then...I have the same class this afternoon. I'll ask them! That's our class for today. Do you mean clean unclean in relation to gender? And in relations to unisex toilets?

I know the Spanish are obsessively tidy within their homes...they're infamous for it. I've seen it first hand and discussed it with other Spanish people who confirmed this (I read it in a few books about them). My landlady used to come in to my flat uninvited and point out dirt to me (tiny little marks almost naked to the human eye). It was bizarre. I'd stand there speechless. Obviously I put my foot down on that one.

syklops

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Right then...I have the same class this afternoon. I'll ask them! That's our class for today. Do you mean clean unclean in relation to gender? And in relations to unisex toilets?

I know the Spanish are obsessively tidy within their homes...they're infamous for it. I've seen it first hand and discussed it with other Spanish people who confirmed this (I read it in a few books about them). My landlady used to come in to my flat uninvited and point out dirt to me (tiny little marks almost naked to the human eye). It was bizarre. I'd stand there speechless. Obviously I put my foot down on that one.

I don't know if asking them will have any purpose. As you said, they didn't understand the concept of cooties, so they might just look at you blankly.

Here, the Czech also have reasonably health attitudes to sex and genders. The age of consent is 15, but many of my friends and colleagues say they start a good bit earlier then that. They also seem to be very tidy. My soon to be former landlord likes to use the excuse of collecting the rent to give the flat an inspection. Something which would not be tolerated in Ireland, and which is a contributing factor to our desire to move.

Eve_Dublin

syklops wrote: »

I don't know if asking them will have any purpose. As you said, they didn't understand the concept of cooties, so they might just look at you blankly.

Here, the Czech also have reasonably health attitudes to sex and genders. The age of consent is 15, but many of my friends and colleagues say they start a good bit earlier then that. They also seem to be very tidy. My soon to be former landlord likes to use the excuse of collecting the rent to give the flat an inspection. Something which would not be tolerated in Ireland, and which is a contributing factor to our desire to move.

Well they understood the idea alright but it just didn't exist for them growing up. They're a clever bunch and can talk about most things. I suppose I'll ask the question posed by the OP just as an aside. I'm interested myself.

ztoical

diddlybit wrote: »

When I moved back to Ireland when I was seven, I found the gender segregation almost impossible to fathom. What suprised me more than the physical seperation, was the disdain with which boys and girls referred to one another. All of which was justifiable in young heads because they thought that the genders were so radically different to one another, like aliens from another planet. Where such ingrained ideas come from at such an early age confounds me.

This is what I found very interesting about the talk the other night as it really got me thinking of my childhood and how I grew up with alot of cousins - equal mix of male and female and we all just played together at my Grandfathers place with no seperation of boys and girls. There were no gender roles with our games then I started school and these ideas of gender was suddenly enforced. I knew my mum was a doctor before starting primary school but after starting school I came home one day and told her she was nurse because girls couldn't be doctors! I also ended up drifting apart from male cousins I had been very close to as the general school yard view was I should play only with other girls.

What ever about issues when it comes to teenagers, hormones and sexuality, is there really a need to impose an idea of gender on kids under the age of say 8? The word 'girl' originally meant all young children regardless of gender. Yesterday I read a piece about a Canadian family who've just had a baby but have refused to tell anyone what gender the child is. They've two other young kids and they let the kids pick out their own clothes from the store and their own toys regardless of which gender the clothes/toys are marketed towards. It's common for mothers and fathers to bring their kids regardless of gender in to bathrooms and changing rooms with them. So I wonder is it a good or bad thing to enforce gender roles on young children?

Morag

Those limits sadly happen around that age when girls go from wanting to be astronauts and president to wanting to be princesses and wags.

LittleBook

ztoical wrote: »

It was dealing with her earlier years in the north of england and growing up in a large family and how she didn't become aware of the idea of gender and how the genders were segregated until she started school as at home they were all just children and not boys and girls. She had a wonderfully illustrated page of this young girl standing in front of the schools bathrooms with the giant "Boys' and 'Girls' written above two doors.

diddlybit wrote: »

When I moved back to Ireland when I was seven, I found the gender segregation almost impossible to fathom. What suprised me more than the physical seperation, was the disdain with which boys and girls referred to one another. All of which was justifiable in young heads because they thought that the genders were so radically different to one another, like aliens from another planet. Where such ingrained ideas come from at such an early age confounds me.

My daughter grew up in France and always went to mixed schools, when we moved back to Ireland we were lucky enough to find a place for her in a mixed school too. I've often wondered what a shock it would have been to her system if she'd had to go suddenly go to an all-girls school.

She's always had male friends (best friend in France was a boy, one of her closest friends here is a boy). She seems genuinely comfortable with both genders and her male friends (both here and in France) have been for sleepovers many times.

There's no comparison between how comfortable she is around the opposite sex with how we were as teenagers around boys ... awkward, uncomfortable, ignorant.

ztoical wrote: »

Is there really that big a divide between the genders or is it more something we've created?

Honestly, I think the kind of divide that is forced between boys and girls in school can be extremely detrimental to inter-gender relationships both as kids and adults.

I can't think of any other two groups of people that society works so actively to segregate and segregation only leads to fear and mistrust and this ....

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I thought most of them were germ-ridden, smelly and dirty and not to be associated with.

:pac:

and this ...

ztoical wrote: »

I knew my mum was a doctor before starting primary school but after starting school I came home one day and told her she was nurse because girls couldn't be doctors!

and this ...

ztoical wrote: »

I also ended up drifting apart from male cousins I had been very close to as the general school yard view was I should play only with other girls.

Marsha McMallow

What an interesting topic!

Personally I wouldn't mind unisex toilets or changing rooms at all. People here would be uncomfortable with them because they're used to having seperate men's and women's bathrooms, but if we brought them in and waited a couple of years nobody would mind. Really I don't see the point in gender assigned toilets (besides not wanting to use a seat that's been urinated on :pac:).

I remember as a kid, the most fun games to play were the ones where everyone could get involved, like chasing, street hockey and hide and seek. I'd say some people are afraid that if they don't impose gender roles on their kids, they'll turn out clueless, or -heaven forbid- gay. There's actually a really interesting documentary on youtube somewhere about a boy whose circumcision went wrong and ended up with him losing his penis, so the mother decided to raise him as a girl, making him wear girls clothes etc. He was horribly depressed and eventually had a sex change to become a man again. I think this shows that it doesn't matter if we don't impose roles upon kids, they'll find their way.

HavingCrack

syklops wrote: »

I am ruling out religious influences because Spain is quite a religious country, with Catholicism being the front runner.

Spain isn't as necessarily as religious as many people think. Prior to tand during he Spanish Civil War much of rural Spain was an anarchist stronghold while many of the urban centres were dominated by communists with all the atheism and anti-clericalism that entailed. This was the 1930's you have to remember. Can you imagine atheist anarchist communes in rural Ireland at the time?

Anyway, Spain is actually a lot less religious than many people realise, far less than Ireland I feel.

mcmoustache

I don't like them. There's one in the Garage, Temple Bar. Guys have to queue and girls have to clean the seat after guys. It suits neither sex in my opinion.

parker kent

syklops wrote: »

I'd also be interested in finding out if this clean and unclean attitude is more prevalent among people from hot countries, and the unclean attitude be more prevalent in wet, damp countries such as our own. I am ruling out religious influences because Spain is quite a religious country, with Catholicism being the front runner.

When people say religious influences in relation to Ireland, they specifically mean Irish Catholicism.

Ambersky

A few years ago a woman was raped in the womens toilets in the George a well known gay bar in Dublin.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gay-bar-rape-expriest-held-364562.html
I was reminded of this again with the recent case of a woman raped in a public toilet in Cork.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0519/1224297286229.html
Gay and Lesbian clubs often have a bit of a mix in the toilets for various reasons.
Gender mix in the toilets didn’t cost me much thought untill I heard about that rape in the George and it really gave me the creeps thinking maybe some guy just wanted to rape a lesbian and would find it easy in a gay bar.
There can sometimes be a kind of feeling of remove about public toilets that I don’t feel safe about.
Now I know one can be raped anywhere, your own home being the most likely but I don’t like the feeling of vulnerability, loads of doors to lock and general seedyness about some public toilets.
So I kind of feel a bit safer thinking it is usually only going to be women I encounter in a public toilet.

HavingCrack

Ambersky wrote: »

A few years ago a woman was raped in the womens toilets in the George a well known gay bar in Dublin.
Then there was the recent case of a woman raped in a public toilet in Cork.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0519/1224297286229.html
Gay and Lesbian clubs often have a bit of a mix in the toilets for various reasons.
Gender mix in the toilets didn’t cost me much thought untill I heard about that rape in the George and it really gave me the creeps thinking maybe some guy just wanted to rape a lesbian and would find it easy in a gay bar.
There can sometimes be a kind of feeling of remove about public toilets that I don’t feel safe about.
Now I know one can be raped anywhere, your own home being the most likely but I don’t like the feeling of vulnerability, loads of doors to lock and general seedyness about some public toilets.
So I kind of feel a bit safer thinking it is usually only going to be women I encounter in a public toilet.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0219/1224290278692.html

Case of an Irish woman who was convicted of raping another woman in a public toilet in Australia. I get the angle you're coming from and I find it very understandable that you would 'feel' safer with just other women but it's certainly no guarantee against attack.

To be fair I find the handful of uni sex toilets I have been in nightclubs to be useless for both men and women. The men were stuck in the same queue as the women while the women had to clean down the seats constantly. It didn't work for anyone.

parker kent

Yeah in nightclubs I don't think it would work at all. Some mens aim goes on the blink with a few drinks and I'd hate to be stuck in a queue the way women seem to be in clubs.