Thoughts on Pride

Chuchoter

I'm aware that 98% of the people there are wearing normal clothes, but are they the ones that get photographed?

alexjk

But it is always the people who are perceived as looking more interesting that are going to get photographed. Which is more likely to draw your eye to a newspaper:
This


or this


The first picture is New York Pride whilst the second is Dublin Pride.

baby and crumble

It's funny, every time Pride gets mentioned, you get the same array of responses on here!

Personally, I don't like Pride marches. Like Crayola said, it's the sexualisation of it all that bothers me. I have no problem with marching for civil rights of any kind, however what Pride has become serves (I believe) no purpose. I view it a bit like St. Patricks Day Parades. A bit embarrassing, really, because I don't see why I should be 'proud' of something I had no control over, like being gay, or being Irish. Plus what I see in both parades does not reflect me, as an Irish person, or as a lesbian.

Stuff like the gay film festivals, or gay theatre festivals, or events like lesbian lives etc. are great. It shows up a side of gay life and culture that many people dont see, or get to experience. I like my fair share of sterotypical gay nights out, at Panti or the George. Ive had fantastic fun. I am not lambasting anyone for being a stereotype because I'm sure some people look at me and see a giant neon sign proclaiming "butch dyke AHHHH" It's the hypocrisy, as someone else mentioned, of wanting to be accepted as normal and no different to everyone, and then turning around and going "well actually, we ARE different, we're so sparkly!!!"

Plus it bug me that the sexualisation feeds into the shallowness of many on the scene. If you don't have a six pack (male) or look good in a wife beater (female) then the implicit message is that you're not really "one of us". Consider I have more of a keg situation goin on and I'm pretty sure I'd melt peoples eyes in a wife beater, it doesn't really make me feel accepted, at all.

alexjk

If you don't have a six pack (male) or look good in a wife beater (female) then the implicit message is that you're not really "one of us". Consider I have more of a keg situation goin on and I'm pretty sure I'd melt peoples eyes in a wife beater, it doesn't really make me feel accepted, at all.

I think people with six packs are by far the minority in Ireland in general, not even taking into account the gay scene. You would want to venture to, say France or the United States, where they can hold muscle only nights, twink only nights etc and actually make them successful. The same doesn't hold true for Ireland.

I also think people are approaching the word pride the wrong way. If you look at the history of how the parade got started in Ireland, you could definitely see why they wanted to use that word.

Kanoe

this thread scares me

hotmail.com

alexjk wrote: »

If you had ever been to Dublin Pride you would see that the vast, vast majority of people are dressed as casually as they would otherwise dress. Some people dress up a bit but it's not the images you're used to seeing from Pride marches in other countries.

I don't think the Irish gay scene puts the pressure to conform to certain body standards that are prevalent in gay scenes elsewhere (at least not to the same degree) and I think this is reflected in events like Pride.

+ 1000.

diddlybit

Kanoe wrote: »

this thread scares me

Why?

Asry

zoegh wrote: »

It's funny, every time Pride gets mentioned, you get the same array of responses on here!

Personally, I don't like Pride marches. Like Crayola said, it's the sexualisation of it all that bothers me. I have no problem with marching for civil rights of any kind, however what Pride has become serves (I believe) no purpose. I view it a bit like St. Patricks Day Parades. A bit embarrassing, really, because I don't see why I should be 'proud' of something I had no control over, like being gay, or being Irish. Plus what I see in both parades does not reflect me, as an Irish person, or as a lesbian.

Stuff like the gay film festivals, or gay theatre festivals, or events like lesbian lives etc. are great. It shows up a side of gay life and culture that many people dont see, or get to experience. I like my fair share of sterotypical gay nights out, at Panti or the George. Ive had fantastic fun. I am not lambasting anyone for being a stereotype because I'm sure some people look at me and see a giant neon sign proclaiming "butch dyke AHHHH" It's the hypocrisy, as someone else mentioned, of wanting to be accepted as normal and no different to everyone, and then turning around and going "well actually, we ARE different, we're so sparkly!!!"

Plus it bug me that the sexualisation feeds into the shallowness of many on the scene. If you don't have a six pack (male) or look good in a wife beater (female) then the implicit message is that you're not really "one of us". Consider I have more of a keg situation goin on and I'm pretty sure I'd melt peoples eyes in a wife beater, it doesn't really make me feel accepted, at all.

I absolutely 100% agree with this.

As for Irish men not having six packs as the norm, maybe just substitute the Irish version of that stereotype, which seems to be generally massively underweight and lispy. [/sarcasm]

azezil

zoegh wrote: »

Plus it bug me that the sexualisation feeds into the shallowness of many on the scene. If you don't have a six pack (male) or look good in a wife beater (female) then the implicit message is that you're not really "one of us". Consider I have more of a keg situation goin on and I'm pretty sure I'd melt peoples eyes in a wife beater, it doesn't really make me feel accepted, at all.

That's like saying you don't feel you're Irish if you don't wear a green leprechaun outfit on Paddy's day. o_Ó

Colourful loud spoken flamboyant people stand out in any crowd but they only make up a very small part of the pride parade. The vast majority are just average looking people walking in a parade celebrating diversity.

alexjk

@ Asry:
You talk about Pride perpetuating stereotypes but then you use them yourself to look down on others. I don't know what experiences you've had that make you feel out of place in the Irish gay scene but I've more often than not found it to be friendly.

BanzaiBk

Dublin Pride parade is possibly one of the most sedate parades in the world. Save for the drag acts, and some scene icons, the parade is almost completely made up of run of the mill average gay people. Please don't be scared by the thought of the dublin parade Kanoe, it really is nothing like this thread is hyping it up to be.

Annasopra

Agree with banzaibik - 97% of the people in the parade are just ordinary people who are not drag queens or butch biker lesbians or half naked people but you know what - I'm one of that 97% - I don't do drag and I'm not a butcher biker lesbian but I love that pride really represents diversity in the ordinary and in the extra ordinary. I really don't understand why people are so anti pride personally - It's almost like a rejection of anyone who doesn't act in a heteronormative or cisnormative way. I mean a lot of people are going on Im this thread being seen to be normal - I am normal but what's wrong with not being normal?

easychair

alexjk wrote: »

@ Asry:
You talk about Pride perpetuating stereotypes but then you use them yourself to look down on others. I don't know what experiences you've had that make you feel out of place in the Irish gay scene but I've more often than not found it to be friendly.

Are you "looking down" on Asry for perpetuating stereotypes? :-)

Seriously, there are lots of people who are slightly embarrassed by the need to be "proud" of being gay, and the need to march and celebrate gay culture. I've never been really sure what gay culture is, and prefer to celebrate all culture.

I just see being gay as being pretty normal nowadays, and prefer to celebrate that normalness, and celebrate that we have got to this stage. Personally, I dislike all those events which are designed to show that being gay is separate from everyone else, as they perpetuate the notion that to be gay is not to be normal.

Aard

Pride:
We're so proud as a gay couple that we only hold hands in public one day a year.


I'm still very confused as to its purpose.

deirdre_dub

Aard wrote: »

I'm still very confused as to its purpose.

The needs that marching in pride have met in me are -

1. To have fun! There is something really cool about making a ton of noise going down O'Connell Street, and watching all the passers-by with followed by looks on their faces. There are very few :rolleyes: or :eek: reactions, and fewer still or :mad:.

2. To celebrate diversity

3. To meet up with my friends (and maybe even make a few new ones) and have a day out

4. To increase the visibility of transgender people and to help normalise transgender people.

5. To make some noise about my missing human rights

Kanoe

diddlybit wrote: »

Why?

it's ok Deirdre Dub made it all better
I haven't been to any pride so wouldn't know what to expect really, would hate to go and find no reason..other than having a big street party, to be there. (thanks Banzai)

Aishae

i had a thought on this
is it really any different to people dressing up for any other parade: eg, patricks day?
the theme for pride seems to be camp (but as someone said, most dont dress that way)

i see the point that this campness is only reinforcing the way gobsh*tes view 'all gays' most educated people understand that we're all individuals.
however - while i do think its stupid that you cant have a bit of fun for the parade without getting grief - i do think, even if it is a bit twisted, we're representing the LGBT community at large and thus theres a slight onus on us for the parade. if the point of the parade is to help highlight the presence of homosexuality and seek acceptance rather than shouting 'im here, im gay, im all sparkly' when in reality you rarely wear anything sparkly (but for the parade you wanted to dress up)

thing is - that style of dressing up all camp etc. seems to prevent many gay people from taking part, yes?

alexjk

Aard wrote: »

Pride:
We're so proud as a gay couple that we only hold hands in public one day a year.


I'm still very confused as to its purpose.

But then if people still don't feel comfortable or safe just holding hands in public on a regular basis on their own, then I'm sure you can see the relevance that Pride has? One of my friends got spat on by a bystander at Pride in 2010, and he wasn't all sparkly and topless (as if that would somehow be seen as provoking it).

Pride also exposed me to parts of the gay community that I had never seen before, such as elderly gay people and gay parent families.

baby and crumble

I think a big objection I have, if I sit and think about it, is actually the naming of it. I honestly do not see anything to be proud of in being gay- that is in NO WAY to say I am ashamed of being gay. I am ashamed though, sometimes, that I am being represented by people who are not in any way like me, except that we both are attracted to our own gender. Again, I do liken it to St. Patricks Day and the ridiculous carry-on of people who find heir nationalism for a day.

When Pride started, yes, it made sense. It doens't anymore. MOst people I bump into don't give 2 ****s if you're gay- so it washes over them. Most people aren't even aware Pride is on unless they happen to be in town when the march is on. And then the people that do care are the ones that just think we're freaks, and what they see (and remember) of Pride are the people that conform to what they want to think gay people are- overly camp men and butch women. If that's who you are, then great. Go for it. But don't claim to be representative of me.

I don't think that people should have to cave to society, or what 'the man' expects', but you know what, Pride is like our annual job interview for promotion. Would you go to an interview wanting to be taken seriously by not wearing pants? No. Like it or not, if we want to be taken seriously by society, and ensure that we have their support to have rights like legal gaurdianship of a partners children, or to adopt, or to marry, then frankly we have to act like it. And Pride does not achieve that. Marches like the Marriage Equality ones, or LGBT NOISE do. Not Pride. It's an excuse used to get pissed and have sex on the dancefloor of the George. (Which I have seen on Pride nights, can I just point out)

I realise that this post is going to make me look like a mad conservative to some, but I just think I'm being sensible.

alexjk

I wasn't aware that the parade makes a detour into the George, but naturally the actions of the minority invalidate the whole thing.

If you are only going to look for the negatives, then of course that is what you are going to come away with. I don't personally identify with drag queens, but it doesn't bother me at all if other people do. Some of the attitudes here make it seem as if we have to grovel for acceptance from wider society and god forbid that we rock the boat in gender behavioral norms at all.

Annasopra

zoegh wrote: »

Would you go to an interview wanting to be taken seriously by not wearing pants?

Again can I point out the VAST yes VAST majority of people at pride wear pants at pride - also I think people probably have sex on the George dancefloor regardless of pride


I wrote this 6 years ago;

Pride was originally about protesting about the fairview murders in Ireland about harrasment and attacks in New York. Some people think of it as a protest, some as a day out for fun, just to show that they can be themselves without having to worry about others.

I have been on one Pride march and found it absolutely exhilarating to be just past Dublin Castle and look down and see a sea of people down as far as the gates of Trinity.

What I particularly liked was the fact that there were so many diversities there and especially families, in what other gay setting do you see families?

My views haven't particularly changed on it in 6 years - I love the diversity of it; I love not being in a minority for once; I love the celebrations and general good humour - I'm not a pantless drag queen - Pride gives me a warm feeling; a sense of solidarity and celebration of being who I am (a normal unsterotypical PANT WEARING gay man) and who others are (a very diverse mix of people)- (most of them wear pants) ;-)

baby and crumble

I guess the pants thing was more an illustration than gospel, but still. I guess it just boils down to Pride just not 'sitting right' with me.

However I will also freely admit that I'm having a rubbish day and not getting any of my thesis written and that makes me unhappy and this thread and topic seemed like a good place to rant since I do feel strongly about it anyway...

Annasopra

zoegh wrote: »

I guess the pants thing was more an illustration than gospel, but still. I guess it just boils down to Pride just not 'sitting right' with me.

However I will also freely admit that I'm having a rubbish day and not getting any of my thesis written and that makes me unhappy and this thread and topic seemed like a good place to rant since I do feel strongly about it anyway...

Indeed; indeed I was kind of just poking fun at the pants thing :-) and I'm having a **** day trying to write too but i do love pride

AndrewJD

I don't care about any of this, it disrupts my bus route so it should be stopped.

Nebit

deirdre_dub wrote: »

The needs that marching in pride have met in me are -

1. To have fun! There is something really cool about making a ton of noise going down O'Connell Street, and watching all the passers-by with followed by looks on their faces. There are very few :rolleyes: or :eek: reactions, and fewer still or :mad:.

2. To celebrate diversity

3. To meet up with my friends (and maybe even make a few new ones) and have a day out

4. To increase the visibility of transgender people and to help normalise transgender people.

5. To make some noise about my missing human rights

1 & 2) Again double standards ... you talk about being accepted into society yet how is this going to happen if you keep making out like you're different to the majority?

3) You can make friends anywhere and pride seems to be more about getting the shag for those who are single, and acting a drunken fool.

4) Right because parading transgender people on the street will help normalise people? no people will 'normalise' to it when they see transgender people doing normal everyday life things... not shouting down the street that they're here.

5) How does pride make noise about missing rights? ok it does to some level, but very few media will focus on those protesting for a few rights and instead focus on those people making a fool of themselves. If you want to strive for rights, do it on a day where that will be the centre of attention and the main theme, not on a day when people are off getting pissed etc just because they're a member of the LGBT community... there would be outrage if there was a straight day.

Nebit

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Again can I point out the VAST yes VAST majority of people at pride wear pants at pride - also I think people probably have sex on the George dancefloor regardless of pride


I wrote this 6 years ago;



My views haven't particularly changed on it in 6 years - I love the diversity of it; I love not being in a minority for once; I love the celebrations and general good humour - I'm not a pantless drag queen - Pride gives me a warm feeling; a sense of solidarity and celebration of being who I am (a normal unsterotypical PANT WEARING gay man) and who others are (a very diverse mix of people)- (most of them wear pants) ;-)

I actually think it makes some people including me and ALOT of people feel like a minority within a minority ... and although when went i met a few alike... the majority were completely different, now theres nothing wrong with that, but i remember seeing pride on TV before i was out and also this applies to 3 more friends of mine and it just made us cover up that we were gay for a little longer and made us feel like we didnt belong anywhere. It is this reason that i am against the parade at pride and all those stupid stereotypical stuff which is supposedly representing a community i belong in.

wonderfulname

I don't really enjoy pride, its not my thing. Most of what I dislike about it has already been covered so I won't go into it again. However, regardless of how much I hate it as a social event it does what it says on the tin for me and evokes a sense of pride, not in being gay, but in our country. Look how far we've come in such a short space in time that the second largest parade in the country comprises entirely of people who are out and quite probably proud and those that support them. Its absolutely headwrecking to attend but it gives me hope for the not to distant future.

Annasopra

Nebit wrote: »

pride seems to be more about getting the shag for those who are single, and acting a drunken fool.

And people wearing no pants;

I think it's quite ironic that people going on and on about pride reinforcing stereotypes or displaying stereotypes to the media are the ones who are actually doing the stereotyping. I wear pants at pride. I don't go to pride to look for.a shag. I enjoy a few drinks at pride but I don't act like a drunken fool. Guess what? most people at pride are like me! Normal, pant wearing, soberish etc

Nebit

Johnnymcg wrote: »

And people wearing no pants;

I think it's quite ironic that people going on and on about pride reinforcing stereotypes or displaying stereotypes to the media are the ones who are actually doing the stereotyping. I wear pants at pride. I don't go to pride to look for.a shag. I enjoy a few drinks at pride but I don't act like a drunken fool. Guess what? most people at pride are like me! Normal, pant wearing, soberish etc

When one earth did i say people don't wear pants..... im not sereotyping and in fact if you read my other posts more carefully you will see i speak about media focussing on these stereotypes and make it clear not all who go to pride are like that.... however some... and those who appear to get attention of the media ARE ...
Oh and may i point out that the majority of single people ... like all single people... particularly males use it as a big party sesh and a way to score another person.

Pointing out the facts.

oisindoyle

mousername wrote: »

I don't like it. Maybe it's because I'm straight in every way except I like girls :P By that I mean, I'm not the stereotypical lesbian, I don't go flaunting my orientation around like it's so important, or wave a big rainbow flag. Virtually all my friends from growing up are straight etc. The whole thing just seems alien to me.

I'd by no means oppose it because, I mean, each to their own and obviously gay pride is important to some people. But I personally think, if anything, it's detrimental to the 'gay cause'. The sooner we as a community start to not make such a big deal about being gay, the sooner it will be normalised and accepted by all*. We're starting to get more rights and starting to be accepted by more in society now. Many people will use the arguement "Why should gays be discriminated upon? We're just like you except we happen to fancy people the same gender as us'' to justify equal rights and that's a fair one. Can't really use that arguement with the pride festivals however!! I think it just furthers the rift between the gay and straight communities.

Just my opinion though

Alot of stuff there ,and some dare I say internalised homphobia as well ,which is ok because WE ALL go through that .First of all lesbians come in all shapes and sizes in the same way as gay guys come in all shapes and sizes.Classing all gay guys as camp and all lesbians as butch just isnt so.
Pride is very important ,the whole idea of pride way back was to make a stand and stand up for ourselves and without doing so ,we might have not any rights at all .
I cannot see how u can say it furthers the rift between straight and gay people .Many many straight people go to the parade as well and if anyone on here has never been on a pride march I would suggest you DO IT .Your first pride march can be very gratifiying and for me it was a tad emotional as well.
Its also the ONLY day for many when they can hold their boyfriends or girlfriends hand while walking through town.
So you see Pride IS ver important to many ,,,,,,,dont knock it