Thoughts on Pride

diddlybit

Pride season is nearly upon us and I saw a couple of comments in another thread about it, and am curious in regards to people's opinions on it. (Didn't want to derail everyone's social plans ).

Personally, I think it's a great thing, whether or not, you partake in it or not (rainbows aren't everybody's style ). Nor do I think it is defunct, in consideration of the furor that Brenda Powers comments created a couple of years back, it still has the power to inspire debate and criticism, both form within the gay community and from outside it.

I've never been to Dublin Pride but, will probably head along this year, but I've been to Toronto and had a great time. Toronto's been criticised in recent years for being too commercial, but the resources available and the after-parade carnival type thingy were great. It was a lot more extreme than Pride here, as far as I can tell, if Brenda Power had problems with Panti's get up, she should head to Toronto and see what she thinks of no get up at all. :eek:

Just curious folks...

Aishae

curious about it too - ive only ever seen it in passing. im not sure if id want to attend as id worry if gobsheens would give more than verbal abuse.

Links234

I've never attended a pride parade or anything, but I'm kinda determined to do something this year.

hare05

I'll be there this year.

LegacyUser

I don't like it. Maybe it's because I'm straight in every way except I like girls :P By that I mean, I'm not the stereotypical lesbian, I don't go flaunting my orientation around like it's so important, or wave a big rainbow flag. Virtually all my friends from growing up are straight etc. The whole thing just seems alien to me.

I'd by no means oppose it because, I mean, each to their own and obviously gay pride is important to some people. But I personally think, if anything, it's detrimental to the 'gay cause'. The sooner we as a community start to not make such a big deal about being gay, the sooner it will be normalised and accepted by all*. We're starting to get more rights and starting to be accepted by more in society now. Many people will use the arguement "Why should gays be discriminated upon? We're just like you except we happen to fancy people the same gender as us'' to justify equal rights and that's a fair one. Can't really use that arguement with the pride festivals however!! I think it just furthers the rift between the gay and straight communities.

Just my opinion though

Nebit

It annoys me that pride is an event to separate LGBT people from the rest, it seems very double standards to go on about acceptance into 'normal' society then have a day solely for LGBTs.
Also i dislike how pride reassures the stereotypes in some peoples minds .. especially those who are more susceptible. Im not saying everyone that goes is a stereotype, but the parade certainly seems it.

Now the good thing about pride is that it is a day where one can openly walk the streets of a certain area and be able to hold hands with their boyfriend/girlfriend etc and kiss in public with little fear of snide comments since those with a problem just wont attend.

However personally i feel like the bad outweighs the good concerning pride. We're not a country like those in the Baltics, whos parades were simply people marching to be recognised. Instead we parade stereotypes, and create an unnecessary scene.

Can I ask when this happens (date of the year, etc.)?

Never been to one, and not gay, but would be curious to see the set up for it and perhaps get a few photographs (I assume if it's as stereotypical as Nebit mentions, then it is a colourful enough event?)

Cheers

diddlybit

Nebit wrote: »

It annoys me that pride is an event to separate LGBT people from the rest, it seems very double standards to go on about acceptance into 'normal' society then have a day solely for LGBTs.
Also i dislike how pride reassures the stereotypes in some peoples minds .. especially those who are more susceptible. Im not saying everyone that goes is a stereotype, but the parade certainly seems it.

I would have to disagree with you here, I think that there is a huge difference between seperatism and support, there are many other minority groups that have specfic events/days/festivals for them, yet they don't have to field critcisms about this. In regards to sterotypes, I can't speak for Dublin, but when I was in Toronto, the diversity of the groups at Pride was huge, there was general walkers, lesbian groups, bi-groups, trans-groups, bears, parents groups, poly groups, nudists (:eek:) etc. I understand that there are sterotypes that exist and are used against the gay community, and that people on this forum dislike, but personally, I applaud those also that fit the sterotype. Camp men and butch women probably have a harder time of it as they stand out more in contrast to socially accepted gender performances.

I never quite understand why critique is directed at the "sterotypes" rather than what is percieved to be "normal", just because a way of behavior is more accepted than another, doesn't mean that is is less right.

However personally i feel like the bad outweighs the good concerning pride. We're not a country like those in the Baltics, whos parades were simply people marching to be recognised. Instead we parade stereotypes, and create an unnecessary scene.

It's true that we have come a long way in terms of LGBT rights, but there is still a long way to go. Acceptence and tolerence in the cities may make life a lot easier than a LGBT person living in a country where it is less tolerated, but there are many people in smaller towns and villages and attitudes towarsd their sexuality make their lives hell.

I like scenes, so we'll have to disagree on that one. Especially loud, coloured ones.

AndrewJD

I'm with Nebit here, I think they're a major PR nightmare for LGBT perception. Type 'gay pride parade' into google and look at the images that come up. Things like:



Now I know that that isn't it. There's much more to it. But the things that in my experience people immediately think of when they think about gay pride are not the things I feel proud of. OK so why should I care what everyone thinks of me? Well not a huge amount of reasons, but if you don't think pride marches are worth much to us in the first place (which I'd largely agree with) then they're doing more damage than good.

diddlybit

Deleted User wrote: »

Can I ask when this happens (date of the year, etc.)?

Never been to one, and not gay, but would be curious to see the set up for it and perhaps get a few photographs (I assume if it's as stereotypical as Nebit mentions, then it is a colourful enough event?)

Cheers

Website is here http://www.dublinpride.ie/ , the parade is on June the 25th.

Not sure if it's sterotypical, but it's a great photo opportunity. The website has a collection that you can browse through.

Links234

diddlybit wrote: »

Website is here http://www.dublinpride.ie/ , the parade is on June the 25th.

I might attend that

Annasopra

diddlybit wrote: »

Website is here http://www.dublinpride.ie/ , the parade is on June the 25th.
.

Cork pride is on the June bank holiday weekend - There are also parades in sligo, Galway, Limerick; I think also waterford and dundalk

diddlybit wrote: »

Not sure if it's sterotypical, but it's a great photo opportunity. The website has a collection that you can browse through.

It can be stereotypical but I personally love the diversity. I'm not a stereotype but I love that people can be - I love that pride celebrates diversity. anyway you will find loads more images on flickr and other photo sites

Asry

Nebit wrote: »

Also i dislike how pride reassures the stereotypes in some peoples minds .. especially those who are more susceptible. Im not saying everyone that goes is a stereotype, but the parade certainly seems it.

Now the good thing about pride is that it is a day where one can openly walk the streets of a certain area and be able to hold hands with their boyfriend/girlfriend etc and kiss in public with little fear of snide comments since those with a problem just wont attend.

However personally i feel like the bad outweighs the good concerning pride. We're not a country like those in the Baltics, whos parades were simply people marching to be recognised. Instead we parade stereotypes, and create an unnecessary scene.

I HATE PRIDE SO MUCH.

I've been 2 or 3 times and I hate it and hopefully I won't be in Dublin for it. I was in NYC for pride a few years ago and my lesbian friends who were with me travelling were angry that I didn't go near it but I HATE IT. So yeah, of course I didn't.

Asry

[ha Jaysus thy're big letters. Apologies. I can't fix them though so I guess we're stuck with the giant size of my caps lock hatred forever....:(:rolleyes::o]

diddlybit

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Cork pride is on the June bank holiday weekend - There are also parades in sligo, Galway, Limerick; I think also waterford and dundalk

Can't back into the events page. Did I give the wrong date? :eek:

diddlybit

diddlybit wrote: »

Website is here http://www.dublinpride.ie/ , the parade is on June the 25th.

Not sure if it's sterotypical, but it's a great photo opportunity. The website has a collection that you can browse through.

Cheers for that. Should hopefully make it up for a few shots of it.

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Cork pride is on the June bank holiday weekend - There are also parades in sligo, Galway, Limerick; I think also waterford and dundalk

Dundalk has one, too? I'm in Drogheda, so not too far from that, either.

Dundalk Pride 2011

LGBTQ Festival, 15th, 16th & 17th July 2011
Plans are underway for Dundalk Pride 2011, to take place on the weekend of 16th July...

According to http://www.outcomers.org/

Nebit

diddlybit wrote: »

I would have to disagree with you here, I think that there is a huge difference between seperatism and support, there are many other minority groups that have specfic events/days/festivals for them, yet they don't have to field critcisms about this. In regards to sterotypes, I can't speak for Dublin, but when I was in Toronto, the diversity of the groups at Pride was huge, there was general walkers, lesbian groups, bi-groups, trans-groups, bears, parents groups, poly groups, nudists (:eek:) etc. I understand that there are sterotypes that exist and are used against the gay community, and that people on this forum dislike, but personally, I applaud those also that fit the sterotype. Camp men and butch women probably have a harder time of it as they stand out more in contrast to socially accepted gender performances.

I never quite understand why critique is directed at the "sterotypes" rather than what is percieved to be "normal", just because a way of behavior is more accepted than another, doesn't mean that is is less right.



It's true that we have come a long way in terms of LGBT rights, but there is still a long way to go. Acceptence and tolerence in the cities may make life a lot easier than a LGBT person living in a country where it is less tolerated, but there are many people in smaller towns and villages and attitudes towarsd their sexuality make their lives hell.

I like scenes, so we'll have to disagree on that one. Especially loud, coloured ones.

How do parades such as the one AndrewJD put up speak acceptance and tolerance ???
Also i beg to differ that those stereotypes have a harder time than those perceived to act 'normal' so to speak.
It is often a misconception that stereotypes get a harder time. In fact it's the opposite, they flaunt that they are gay, it becomes them, they dont have to constantly tell a new person when they become friends with them that they're gay and have the usual 'what ?? but you dont seem gay' whoha.
Not only that but if you're perceived as more of a threat it would seem to masculinity since you are 'normal' (again so to speak) and therefore can undergo a lot more physical and emotional bullying.

Actually; looking at the dublin pride website, it has two dates on the page, one is the 17th and the other is the 26th (both in June).

Is that a start and end date for the 'festival'? Might not bother now. Seems a little too dragged out. Don't fancy hopping on buses up to Dublin for over a week straight.

diddlybit

Nebit wrote: »

How do parades such as the one AndrewJD put up speak acceptance and tolerance ???

No offence to AndrewJD, but that is one photo, and typical of the type that is often used to vilify Pride, 9which he mentioned in his post.) There is a whole spectrum out there, from Panti to Zappone and Gilligan. They all do diffrent things and represent out community in very differnt ways. Quite succesfully, I might add.

Also i beg to differ that those stereotypes have a harder time than those perceived to act 'normal' so to speak.
It is often a misconception that stereotypes get a harder time. In fact it's the opposite, they flaunt that they are gay, it becomes them, they dont have to constantly tell a new person when they become friends with them that they're gay and have the usual 'what ?? but you dont seem gay' whoha.
Not only that but if you're perceived as more of a threat it would seem to masculinity since you are 'normal' (again so to speak) and therefore can undergo a lot more physical and emotional bullying.

I hate the term flaunting. It used in a range of discourses that are not confined to sterotypes. A gay couple walks down the street holding hands, they are "flaunting". A gay PDA is "flaunting". Bringing your partner somewhere is "flaunting".

In regards to telling people about their "gayness", it's called coming out. It is an unfortunate side effect of gayness that affects both sterotypes and non-sterotypes. The solution would obviously be to tattoo it on forehaesd to alleviate the "whoa" secnario, but personally the people at fault in the hypothesis is not the LGBT individual, but the people that presume that all LGBT act/look/behave in a homogenous fashion. Some of us are just easier to spot than others.

I am completely bemused as to how a person's masculinty can have anything to do with their sensitivity level to bullying and harrassment. It is wrong no matter what type of person the victim is.

KnifeWRENCH

Nebit wrote: »

It annoys me that pride is an event to separate LGBT people from the rest, it seems very double standards to go on about acceptance into 'normal' society then have a day solely for LGBTs.
Also i dislike how pride reassures the stereotypes in some peoples minds .. especially those who are more susceptible. Im not saying everyone that goes is a stereotype, but the parade certainly seems it.

Now the good thing about pride is that it is a day where one can openly walk the streets of a certain area and be able to hold hands with their boyfriend/girlfriend etc and kiss in public with little fear of snide comments since those with a problem just wont attend.

However personally i feel like the bad outweighs the good concerning pride. We're not a country like those in the Baltics, whos parades were simply people marching to be recognised. Instead we parade stereotypes, and create an unnecessary scene.

AndrewJD wrote: »

I'm with Nebit here, I think they're a major PR nightmare for LGBT perception. Type 'gay pride parade' into google and look at the images that come up. Things like:

<snip>*cringe</snip>

Now I know that that isn't it. There's much more to it. But the things that in my experience people immediately think of when they think about gay pride are not the things I feel proud of. OK so why should I care what everyone thinks of me? Well not a huge amount of reasons, but if you don't think pride marches are worth much to us in the first place (which I'd largely agree with) then they're doing more damage than good.

Big +1 to both these posts. I understand the concept of Pride and why it exists, but to me it just seems like a day for the LGBT community to separate itself even further and for (a minority) to pepetuate the negative stereotypes associated with LGBT people (á la that pic that was posted already.)

Even the name bothers me - Pride. I'm not proud of my sexuality. Just like I'm not proud that I'm male, or white, or Irish. They're not things I achieved, or accomplished; they just happened to be how I turned out. So why should I be proud? I'm not ashamed of my sexuality, certainly. But not being ashamed =/= being proud.

Now when it comes to protests or marches campaigning for civil marriage or LGBT rights....they're a different story. They actually serve a purpose, not just "marching down the street 'cause we can, like!"

I don't expect everyone to agree here, I reckon the majority of people marching in Pride do so with the best intentions and for the right reasons. It's just not for me.

Nebit

diddlybit wrote: »

No offence to AndrewJD, but that is one photo, and typical of the type that is often used to vilify Pride, 9which he mentioned in his post.) There is a whole spectrum out there, from Panti to Zappone and Gilligan. They all do diffrent things and represent out community in very differnt ways. Quite succesfully, I might add.



I hate the term flaunting. It used in a range of discourses that are not confined to sterotypes. A gay couple walks down the street holding hands, they are "flaunting". A gay PDA is "flaunting". Bringing your partner somewhere is "flaunting".

In regards to telling people about their "gayness", it's called coming out. It is an unfortunate side effect of gayness that affects both sterotypes and non-sterotypes. The solution would obviously be to tattoo it on forehaesd to alleviate the "whoa" secnario, but personally the people at fault in the hypothesis is not the LGBT individual, but the people that presume that all LGBT act/look/behave in a homogenous fashion. Some of us are just easier to spot than others.

I am completely bemused as to how a person's masculinty can have anything to do with their sensitivity level to bullying and harrassment. It is wrong no matter what type of person the victim is.

I am sorry but that photo is a common photo that many see concerning pride.... why? because at almost every pride in LGBT accepting contries has people half dressed and stereotypical. the media focuses on this. Then all the little children and people think that is what being gay is all about.

Very well panti walks down the street and represents a group...... still separating the LGBT people from 'normal' society, it appears to all be very double standards in my eyes .... one raves on about acceptance, etc but the next day walks the streets to cheesey techno music, cheering etc holding up banners about your orientation and how different you are to others.

Also concerning what i said about bullying etc, I believe you missed the point, you said 'camp men and butch women probably have a harder time' I was simply stating this was not always the case and often those people perceive as 'straight acting' or not making their sexuality a key part of their identity get a harder time, at least that is what personal and secondary sources appear to state.

Nebit

KnifeWRENCH wrote: »

Big +1 to both these posts. I understand the concept of Pride and why it exists, but to me it just seems like a day for the LGBT community to separate itself even further and for (a minority) to pepetuate the negative stereotypes associated with LGBT people (á la that pic that was posted already.)

Even the name bothers me - Pride. I'm not proud of my sexuality. Just like I'm not proud that I'm male, or white, or Irish. They're not things I achieved, or accomplished; they just happened to be how I turned out. So why should I be proud? I'm not ashamed of my sexuality, certainly. But not being ashamed =/= being proud.

Now when it comes to protests or marches campaigning for civil marriage or LGBT rights....they're a different story. They actually serve a purpose, not just "marching down the street 'cause we can, like!"

I don't expect everyone to agree here, I reckon the majority of people marching in Pride do so with the best intentions and for the right reasons. It's just not for me.

very well put ... and i agree completely concerning the name too

BanzaiBk

I enjoy Pride and it's events I must say

I wouldn't be much of a scene person but I enjoy going to some of the lectures/films/etc side events that take place during Prides. As for the parade, I've been to a few in different places and "regular bystanders" seem to enjoy it and even stop to watch with their families in my experience. Of course you get the hecklers, but sure some people would heckle at anything given half a chance.

diddlybit

KnifeWRENCH wrote: »

Big +1 to both these posts. I understand the concept of Pride and why it exists, but to me it just seems like a day for the LGBT community to separate itself even further and for (a minority) to pepetuate the negative stereotypes associated with LGBT people (á la that pic that was posted already.)

Even the name bothers me - Pride. I'm not proud of my sexuality. Just like I'm not proud that I'm male, or white, or Irish. They're not things I achieved, or accomplished; they just happened to be how I turned out. So why should I be proud? I'm not ashamed of my sexuality, certainly. But not being ashamed =/= being proud.

That's a fair point, but I think that there are a lot of LGBT people who feel differently. It's not really a case of feeling proud of one's sexuality, but moreso a case of giving a big fingers up to all the times that people were made to feel shame about their sexuality.

Nebit wrote: »

I am sorry but that photo is a common photo that many see concerning pride.... why? because at almost every pride in LGBT accepting contries has people half dressed and stereotypical. the media focuses on this. Then all the little children and people think that is what being gay is all about.

Pride alone isnot going to create perceptions, and the perceptions that Pride creates are fairly innocuous in my opinion. I am unsure why diversity and being proud of being diffrent would be a bad message to send little children. Photos of half-naked men are certainly not going to create homophobia, that comes from other social institutions.

Nebit wrote: »

Very well panti walks down the street and represents a group...... still separating the LGBT people from 'normal' society, it appears to all be very double standards in my eyes .... one raves on about acceptance, etc but the next day walks the streets to cheesey techno music, cheering etc holding up banners about your orientation and how different you are to others.

Maybe you should have a glance at the responses to Brenda Power on Pride to answer this comment. (Unless you are Brenda Power?!? )

Nebit wrote: »

Also concerning what i said about bullying etc, I believe you missed the point, you said 'camp men and butch women probably have a harder time' I was simply stating this was not always the case and often those people perceive as 'straight acting' or not making their sexuality a key part of their identity get a harder time, at least that is what personal and secondary sources appear to state.

I believe that it's a common misperception that certain LGBT make themselves gayer, or that sexual idenity figures more highly in people's lives that fit a certain sterotype. In regards to bullying, it's probably unquantifiable what type of person is subject more more bullying or harrassment, so I'm not sure where we could come to any form of conclusion on this. My assumption would be that the more visible you are, the greater the possibility of harassemnt would be, but you obviously feel differently.

Asry

BanzaiBk wrote: »

I enjoy Pride and it's events I must say

I wouldn't be much of a scene person but I enjoy going to some of the lectures/films/etc side events that take place during Prides. As for the parade, I've been to a few in different places and "regular bystanders" seem to enjoy it and even stop to watch with their families in my experience. Of course you get the hecklers, but sure some people would heckle at anything given half a chance.

Actually, sorry, yes, when I did my huge letters back there saying I hated Pride, I mean the parade. I don't see the point of it at all. But I do like lectures and films and things

alexjk

I went to Pride for the first time last year and had a great time. My mum was there with my aunt, who was with her daughter who's a lesbian and we all marched together. My mum actually rang me a few weeks ago to ask when it's on this year so that she can book off work.

Asry

wowww. I really, really can't understand at all when people have family members who want to do things like that with them. And wanting to do things with family members in the first place! I might perhaps open another thread on that topic as it's not really relevant here but I felt like it needed a tiny comment.

rainbow kirby

Asry wrote: »

I don't see the point of it at all. But I do like lectures and films and things

May I also recommend the ceili? Probably my favourite event of Dublin Pride

Kanoe

I've never been I would like to at some point just not sure when (when the time is right I guess). On the topic of family, my daughter asked me was I going to Dublin for this years pride as a friend of her's wanted to know if we would join her. that'd be fairly cool


edit: also I never really felt the need to participate but I got to experience blatant and open homophobia for the first time this year and it was difficult to comprehend but it definitely awoke a part of me that does want to, as diddlybit put it, give a big fingers up to the world. Or at the very least walk outside without feeling ashamed of who I am. If my daughters teenage friend needs the same kind of support, I'd like to be able to be there to walk along side them too.

Chuchoter

I would like to go to pride at some stage but to be honest I don't know if it really serves the purpose its supposed to serve. I completely agree that everyone should get represented, but I don't know, why do people need to go out on floats wearing no clothes? I don't feel like its necessary to sexualize the whole thing to such a level, when we're trying to project ourselves as reasonably normal people. I'm not saying everyone should go there looking as straight as possible, just wear clothes. Thats all I ask. Because thats the image the world gets of us, people who ride floats in town with no clothes on. I don't think pride is as political as it could and needs to be, not just an opportunity to draw attention to yourself by wearing outlandish costumes.

In terms of people who fall into stereotypes having a harder time and stuff, maybe in 'straight' society, I can see your point, but in my (albeit limited) experience of gay community type things, unless you act as gay as humanly possible you're just not cool. In another sense, I think people who fall into stereotypes nearly have it easier in some ways in straight society as well. I can sure as hell tell you I would not be as freaked out about school knowing I'm gay if there was basically no way I could hide it to begin with.

alexjk

If you had ever been to Dublin Pride you would see that the vast, vast majority of people are dressed as casually as they would otherwise dress. Some people dress up a bit but it's not the images you're used to seeing from Pride marches in other countries.

I don't think the Irish gay scene puts the pressure to conform to certain body standards that are prevalent in gay scenes elsewhere (at least not to the same degree) and I think this is reflected in events like Pride.

Chuchoter

I'm aware that 98% of the people there are wearing normal clothes, but are they the ones that get photographed?

alexjk

But it is always the people who are perceived as looking more interesting that are going to get photographed. Which is more likely to draw your eye to a newspaper:
This


or this


The first picture is New York Pride whilst the second is Dublin Pride.

baby and crumble

It's funny, every time Pride gets mentioned, you get the same array of responses on here!

Personally, I don't like Pride marches. Like Crayola said, it's the sexualisation of it all that bothers me. I have no problem with marching for civil rights of any kind, however what Pride has become serves (I believe) no purpose. I view it a bit like St. Patricks Day Parades. A bit embarrassing, really, because I don't see why I should be 'proud' of something I had no control over, like being gay, or being Irish. Plus what I see in both parades does not reflect me, as an Irish person, or as a lesbian.

Stuff like the gay film festivals, or gay theatre festivals, or events like lesbian lives etc. are great. It shows up a side of gay life and culture that many people dont see, or get to experience. I like my fair share of sterotypical gay nights out, at Panti or the George. Ive had fantastic fun. I am not lambasting anyone for being a stereotype because I'm sure some people look at me and see a giant neon sign proclaiming "butch dyke AHHHH" It's the hypocrisy, as someone else mentioned, of wanting to be accepted as normal and no different to everyone, and then turning around and going "well actually, we ARE different, we're so sparkly!!!"

Plus it bug me that the sexualisation feeds into the shallowness of many on the scene. If you don't have a six pack (male) or look good in a wife beater (female) then the implicit message is that you're not really "one of us". Consider I have more of a keg situation goin on and I'm pretty sure I'd melt peoples eyes in a wife beater, it doesn't really make me feel accepted, at all.

alexjk

If you don't have a six pack (male) or look good in a wife beater (female) then the implicit message is that you're not really "one of us". Consider I have more of a keg situation goin on and I'm pretty sure I'd melt peoples eyes in a wife beater, it doesn't really make me feel accepted, at all.

I think people with six packs are by far the minority in Ireland in general, not even taking into account the gay scene. You would want to venture to, say France or the United States, where they can hold muscle only nights, twink only nights etc and actually make them successful. The same doesn't hold true for Ireland.

I also think people are approaching the word pride the wrong way. If you look at the history of how the parade got started in Ireland, you could definitely see why they wanted to use that word.

Kanoe

this thread scares me

hotmail.com

alexjk wrote: »

If you had ever been to Dublin Pride you would see that the vast, vast majority of people are dressed as casually as they would otherwise dress. Some people dress up a bit but it's not the images you're used to seeing from Pride marches in other countries.

I don't think the Irish gay scene puts the pressure to conform to certain body standards that are prevalent in gay scenes elsewhere (at least not to the same degree) and I think this is reflected in events like Pride.

+ 1000.

diddlybit

Kanoe wrote: »

this thread scares me

Why?

Asry

zoegh wrote: »

It's funny, every time Pride gets mentioned, you get the same array of responses on here!

Personally, I don't like Pride marches. Like Crayola said, it's the sexualisation of it all that bothers me. I have no problem with marching for civil rights of any kind, however what Pride has become serves (I believe) no purpose. I view it a bit like St. Patricks Day Parades. A bit embarrassing, really, because I don't see why I should be 'proud' of something I had no control over, like being gay, or being Irish. Plus what I see in both parades does not reflect me, as an Irish person, or as a lesbian.

Stuff like the gay film festivals, or gay theatre festivals, or events like lesbian lives etc. are great. It shows up a side of gay life and culture that many people dont see, or get to experience. I like my fair share of sterotypical gay nights out, at Panti or the George. Ive had fantastic fun. I am not lambasting anyone for being a stereotype because I'm sure some people look at me and see a giant neon sign proclaiming "butch dyke AHHHH" It's the hypocrisy, as someone else mentioned, of wanting to be accepted as normal and no different to everyone, and then turning around and going "well actually, we ARE different, we're so sparkly!!!"

Plus it bug me that the sexualisation feeds into the shallowness of many on the scene. If you don't have a six pack (male) or look good in a wife beater (female) then the implicit message is that you're not really "one of us". Consider I have more of a keg situation goin on and I'm pretty sure I'd melt peoples eyes in a wife beater, it doesn't really make me feel accepted, at all.

I absolutely 100% agree with this.

As for Irish men not having six packs as the norm, maybe just substitute the Irish version of that stereotype, which seems to be generally massively underweight and lispy. [/sarcasm]

azezil

zoegh wrote: »

Plus it bug me that the sexualisation feeds into the shallowness of many on the scene. If you don't have a six pack (male) or look good in a wife beater (female) then the implicit message is that you're not really "one of us". Consider I have more of a keg situation goin on and I'm pretty sure I'd melt peoples eyes in a wife beater, it doesn't really make me feel accepted, at all.

That's like saying you don't feel you're Irish if you don't wear a green leprechaun outfit on Paddy's day. o_Ó

Colourful loud spoken flamboyant people stand out in any crowd but they only make up a very small part of the pride parade. The vast majority are just average looking people walking in a parade celebrating diversity.

alexjk

@ Asry:
You talk about Pride perpetuating stereotypes but then you use them yourself to look down on others. I don't know what experiences you've had that make you feel out of place in the Irish gay scene but I've more often than not found it to be friendly.

BanzaiBk

Dublin Pride parade is possibly one of the most sedate parades in the world. Save for the drag acts, and some scene icons, the parade is almost completely made up of run of the mill average gay people. Please don't be scared by the thought of the dublin parade Kanoe, it really is nothing like this thread is hyping it up to be.

Annasopra

Agree with banzaibik - 97% of the people in the parade are just ordinary people who are not drag queens or butch biker lesbians or half naked people but you know what - I'm one of that 97% - I don't do drag and I'm not a butcher biker lesbian but I love that pride really represents diversity in the ordinary and in the extra ordinary. I really don't understand why people are so anti pride personally - It's almost like a rejection of anyone who doesn't act in a heteronormative or cisnormative way. I mean a lot of people are going on Im this thread being seen to be normal - I am normal but what's wrong with not being normal?

easychair

alexjk wrote: »

@ Asry:
You talk about Pride perpetuating stereotypes but then you use them yourself to look down on others. I don't know what experiences you've had that make you feel out of place in the Irish gay scene but I've more often than not found it to be friendly.

Are you "looking down" on Asry for perpetuating stereotypes? :-)

Seriously, there are lots of people who are slightly embarrassed by the need to be "proud" of being gay, and the need to march and celebrate gay culture. I've never been really sure what gay culture is, and prefer to celebrate all culture.

I just see being gay as being pretty normal nowadays, and prefer to celebrate that normalness, and celebrate that we have got to this stage. Personally, I dislike all those events which are designed to show that being gay is separate from everyone else, as they perpetuate the notion that to be gay is not to be normal.

Aard

Pride:
We're so proud as a gay couple that we only hold hands in public one day a year.


I'm still very confused as to its purpose.

deirdre_dub

Aard wrote: »

I'm still very confused as to its purpose.

The needs that marching in pride have met in me are -

1. To have fun! There is something really cool about making a ton of noise going down O'Connell Street, and watching all the passers-by with followed by looks on their faces. There are very few :rolleyes: or :eek: reactions, and fewer still or :mad:.

2. To celebrate diversity

3. To meet up with my friends (and maybe even make a few new ones) and have a day out

4. To increase the visibility of transgender people and to help normalise transgender people.

5. To make some noise about my missing human rights

Kanoe

diddlybit wrote: »

Why?

it's ok Deirdre Dub made it all better
I haven't been to any pride so wouldn't know what to expect really, would hate to go and find no reason..other than having a big street party, to be there. (thanks Banzai)

Aishae

i had a thought on this
is it really any different to people dressing up for any other parade: eg, patricks day?
the theme for pride seems to be camp (but as someone said, most dont dress that way)

i see the point that this campness is only reinforcing the way gobsh*tes view 'all gays' most educated people understand that we're all individuals.
however - while i do think its stupid that you cant have a bit of fun for the parade without getting grief - i do think, even if it is a bit twisted, we're representing the LGBT community at large and thus theres a slight onus on us for the parade. if the point of the parade is to help highlight the presence of homosexuality and seek acceptance rather than shouting 'im here, im gay, im all sparkly' when in reality you rarely wear anything sparkly (but for the parade you wanted to dress up)

thing is - that style of dressing up all camp etc. seems to prevent many gay people from taking part, yes?

alexjk

Aard wrote: »

Pride:
We're so proud as a gay couple that we only hold hands in public one day a year.


I'm still very confused as to its purpose.

But then if people still don't feel comfortable or safe just holding hands in public on a regular basis on their own, then I'm sure you can see the relevance that Pride has? One of my friends got spat on by a bystander at Pride in 2010, and he wasn't all sparkly and topless (as if that would somehow be seen as provoking it).

Pride also exposed me to parts of the gay community that I had never seen before, such as elderly gay people and gay parent families.

baby and crumble

I think a big objection I have, if I sit and think about it, is actually the naming of it. I honestly do not see anything to be proud of in being gay- that is in NO WAY to say I am ashamed of being gay. I am ashamed though, sometimes, that I am being represented by people who are not in any way like me, except that we both are attracted to our own gender. Again, I do liken it to St. Patricks Day and the ridiculous carry-on of people who find heir nationalism for a day.

When Pride started, yes, it made sense. It doens't anymore. MOst people I bump into don't give 2 ****s if you're gay- so it washes over them. Most people aren't even aware Pride is on unless they happen to be in town when the march is on. And then the people that do care are the ones that just think we're freaks, and what they see (and remember) of Pride are the people that conform to what they want to think gay people are- overly camp men and butch women. If that's who you are, then great. Go for it. But don't claim to be representative of me.

I don't think that people should have to cave to society, or what 'the man' expects', but you know what, Pride is like our annual job interview for promotion. Would you go to an interview wanting to be taken seriously by not wearing pants? No. Like it or not, if we want to be taken seriously by society, and ensure that we have their support to have rights like legal gaurdianship of a partners children, or to adopt, or to marry, then frankly we have to act like it. And Pride does not achieve that. Marches like the Marriage Equality ones, or LGBT NOISE do. Not Pride. It's an excuse used to get pissed and have sex on the dancefloor of the George. (Which I have seen on Pride nights, can I just point out)

I realise that this post is going to make me look like a mad conservative to some, but I just think I'm being sensible.

alexjk

I wasn't aware that the parade makes a detour into the George, but naturally the actions of the minority invalidate the whole thing.

If you are only going to look for the negatives, then of course that is what you are going to come away with. I don't personally identify with drag queens, but it doesn't bother me at all if other people do. Some of the attitudes here make it seem as if we have to grovel for acceptance from wider society and god forbid that we rock the boat in gender behavioral norms at all.