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Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Please Read OP)
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So, you know better what perspective someone has than the person who has that perspective?
If they call themselves atheists, and object to that being called the belief that no gods exist, then yes, I most certainly know what it is better than they do.If someone comes up to you with a random claim, you can accept it, reject it or have no reason to do either. Having no reason to do either isn't some neutral agnostic position, as theism is an affirmation of a belief, and atheism is not having done so.
Whether you like it or not, atheism is whats new to humanity, not theism, so its not 'some random claim'. Civilisations, including our own, have been built on among other things, religious ideologies.
Of course, I've seen the whole 'NO, ATHEISM IS THIS' put very articulately, but its still BS. Its ridiculous that its even an issue. My suspicion, is that atheists that insist on this feel that saying that it means they BELIEVE something, somehow makes it religious. Its nonsense:) It just plays to the stereotype of the "I'm atheist. Argue with me damnit!'
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Fanny Cradock wrote: »Unbelievable? ran a show a number of weeks back trying to pin down the definition of "atheism". It focused on the whole "I lack the belief in God" / "I don't believe that God exists" formalisation until the show turned predictably to the Christian having to defend his beliefs. An interesting listen.
Definitional problems, organised "services" (a fantastic listen for all, btw) and even a schism along the way. Welcome to club, lads.
We'll try not to launch that many wars because someone has got it wrong
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If they call themselves atheists, and object to that being called the belief that no gods exist, then yes, I most certainly know what it is better than they do.
Whether you like it or not, atheism is whats new to humanity, not theism, so its not 'some random claim'. Civilisations, including our own, have been built on among other things, religious ideologies.
Of course, I've seen the whole 'NO, ATHEISM IS THIS' put very articulately, but its still BS. Its ridiculous that its even an issue. My suspicion, is that atheists that insist on this feel that saying that it means they BELIEVE something, somehow makes it religious. Its nonsense:) It just plays to the stereotype of the "I'm atheist. Argue with me damnit!'
Yeah some love a good argument lol
and they move the goal posts more often than the Christians
Glad I'm not an atheist
It's easier being agnostic or spiritual...0 -
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Fanny Cradock wrote: »The whole debate centres on the reliability of these notions. Sayin' they are made up don't make it so. You have to show us that they are made up.
Well no actually. Theists are the ones claim things about their religion. You claim God exists. You claim God is the creator of the universe, source of all morality, punisher of sin etc. You claim Jesus was his son, who came to Earth, died and rose again.
You claim all these things. If you wish that I, or others like me, believe these things as true you need to present better arguments than the ones you have so far.
All I have to do is point out that you haven't done that so far. Reasonable people will reject what theists haven't been able to support, which is why post-Enlightenment religion is slowly but surely on the way out of the Western world.
All you can do is watching the boat sail by and complain about how the modern world (ie logical and reasoned thinking) is leading us all into the depths of immorality and sinFanny Cradock wrote: »Given that theists aren't gong away any time soon I guess that means you'll be hanging around internet forums caring about theism for a while yet.
Well there is an acceptable level of non-influence where I can stop caring about theists, which I'm imagining we hit long before there are no theists left.
You just have to look at how the Catholic Church went from huge influence to not all that much influence in Ireland in the space of only 50 years.
To paraphrase Lincoln "Theism, its done sir"0 -
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Yet over 84% of people claimed to be Catholic in the census. Those crazy Catholics ticking that box, they don't know what their doing exercising their right to self definition
Lol, you think those people are actual believers, do you?
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1130/1224327302533.html
"More than one in five Irish Catholics do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus or that God created the universe, according to the Ipsos MRBI 50th anniversary poll.
It found also that 7 per cent of Irish Catholics do not even believe in God.
When it comes to making serious moral decisions, more than three-quarters (78 per cent) of Irish Catholics follow their own conscience rather than church teaching (17 per cent). Almost half of Irish Catholics (45 per cent) do not believe in Hell while almost a fifth (18 per cent) do not believe that God created man."
Heck even all my atheist friends put down "Catholic" in the census because they thought they were being asked what they were baptized. None of them are believers.0 -
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Lol, you think those people are actual believers, do you?
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1130/1224327302533.html
"More than one in five Irish Catholics do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus or that God created the universe, according to the Ipsos MRBI 50th anniversary poll.
It found also that 7 per cent of Irish Catholics do not even believe in God.
When it comes to making serious moral decisions, more than three-quarters (78 per cent) of Irish Catholics follow their own conscience rather than church teaching (17 per cent). Almost half of Irish Catholics (45 per cent) do not believe in Hell while almost a fifth (18 per cent) do not believe that God created man."
Heck even all my atheist friends put down "Catholic" in the census because they thought they were being asked what they were baptized. None of them are believers.
I have some sympathy with you Zombrex when you see people filling out the census form in a silly way - however, Atheist Ireland did do their best to run a campaign prior to the census, and apparently even all of your very own friends must not have heard of it or understood it properly....or else didn't really think of it's relevance. That's people for you! I wouldn't be too rash in calling down the stupid gene on them though - they may have their very own reasons for the selection.
As far as being a 'Catholic' is concerned there are many ways in which people may ( and they are quite entitled to ) say they are indeed a Catholic, even 'if' they find that they are not always perfectly following her teachings. Also, the Church while she may stipulate Gospel values and never stray from proclaiming them to say 'right is wrong or wrong is right' no matter how much pressure. In fairness, thinking logically about it, she doesn't seem to be too willing to compromise the message even if the numbers diminish to very little - she could, but she doesn't. Neither does the church proclaim anybody 'saved' or indeed not 'saved' right here right now - I don't know if you are familiar with the Parable of the Weeds? It's kind of how the Church sees itself as a community of just 'people' at the end of the day. I myself drifted for many years ( almost twenty ) and came back again to the Church. I considered myself still Catholic ( perhaps Catholic Agnostic pml ) during that time however and not atheist.
I think it's a crying shame that atheist see themselves as 'against' people who claim to be Catholic, because they think they will be discriminated against by the State in something like grants for schools etc.
In my honest opinion, most Catholics would be more than willing to help out minority groups in any community to settle in and to indeed have the resources available to them. In very many cases, the atheists don't even ask the local community for support though - they make a presumption - and tend to stick in groups. We're not all against minority groups having access to schools with a multidenom ethos.PopePalpatine wrote: »Don't forget the numerous cases of Mammy filling in the census form for their kids, too.
One thing is for sure Papa, we all have mammies, even the atheists 0 -
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PopePalpatine wrote: »Don't forget the numerous cases of Mammy filling in the census form for their kids, too.
The census has never matched up with actual polls.
I do find it amusing though that some pretend that they care not about numbers but about adhering to the "true" teachings of the religion and not compromising with beliefs just to boost numbers, but then get super defensive about the eroding numbers of believers.
While they may like to pretend that their faith is rationally arrived at, the old saying "safety in numbers" certainly seems to ring through. Don't have to think too hard about our beliefs if we are surrounded by others who also believe. Sure they can't all be wrong, right!0 -
Atheism is a statement about theists .......
I'll stop caring about theism when theists stop trying to arrange the world based on their made up notions.I think you are confusing atheists with non-nationals there Imaopml? I've no idea what you are talking about. I went to an Educate Together school that was set up by the local community, as most of them are.All I have to do is point out that you haven't done that so far. Reasonable people will reject what theists haven't been able to support, which is why post-Enlightenment religion is slowly but surely on the way out of the Western world.
All you can do is watching the boat sail by and complain about how the modern world (ie logical and reasoned thinking) is leading us all into the depths of immorality and sin
Well there is an acceptable level of non-influence where I can stop caring about theists...........
To paraphrase Lincoln "Theism, its done sir"Heck even all my atheist friends put down "Catholic" in the census because they thought they were being asked what they were baptized. None of them are believers.I think it is more a reflection that Atheism Ireland doesn't have the deep pockets and centuries of cultural influence that the Catholic Church have. Maybe AI should tell people it is their moral duty to donate to them :PThey did have reasons, they told me. They said "Oh we thought that was asking what you were baptized"
Its interesting that while atheist and humanists groups keep pointing out that no that isn't what is being asked, Catholic groups seem rather quiet on the subject...The census has never matched up with actual polls.I do find it amusing though that some pretend that they care not about numbers but about adhering to the "true" teachings of the religion and not compromising with beliefs just to boost numbers, but then get super defensive about the eroding numbers of believers.
While they may like to pretend that their faith is rationally arrived at, the old saying "safety in numbers" certainly seems to ring through. Don't have to think too hard about our beliefs if we are surrounded by others who also believe. Sure they can't all be wrong, right!
I'll tell you what I find amusing. I find it amusing that according to yourself, your mission is to stop theists, 'arranging your world' and then go on to say that in fact the local community set up an ET school in your area with little or no problems apparently. It sounds more to me like some atheists are more than keyboard warriors
Also, it's very amusing that you maintain there are three types of 'believers' and then go on to classify all of your very own friends as kind of daft enough to sign Catholic on the census when they aren't, especially considering they have your good self as their friend to help show them the way - In fact, according to you most people shouldn't really classify themselves at all because apparently they haven't got the wit to do so....
Then you maintain that most people only believe or tick a census because of the 'safe numbers' (which is really taking the piss tbh) and at the same time just prior to that you yourself make the claims that theism is dying out since the enlightened such as yourself came along to enlighten us without a damn bit of proof - amazing!
Very many contradictions there Zombrex, very little substance.0 -
I'll tell you what I find amusing. I find it amusing that according to yourself, your mission is to stop theists, 'arranging your world' and then go on to say that in fact the local community set up an ET school in your area with little or no problems apparently.
Who said they had "little or no problems". They had a ton of problems, including objections from Catholics (real ones) that the school would be a deny of immorality.
My point was that these parents were not some sort of foreigners begging the "local community" for help. They were the local community.It sounds more to me like some atheists are more than keyboard warriors
True, after all we have abortion and gay marriage in this country for decades ... oh waitAlso, it's very amusing that you maintain there are three types of 'believers' and then go on to classify all of your very own friends as kind of daft enough to sign Catholic on the census when they aren't, especially considering they have your good self as their friend to help show them the way - In fact, according to you most people shouldn't really classify themselves at all because apparently they haven't got the wit to do so....
You keep insisting that my friends are stupid? Why? My friends were duped by the engrained cultural bias towards Catholicism, based on centuries of Catholic influence in this country. They didn't believe they were true believers, they believed the government was looking for how they were baptized.Then you maintain that most people only believe or tick a census because of the 'safe numbers' (which is really taking the piss tbh) and at the same time just prior to that you yourself make the claims that theism is dying out since the enlightened such as yourself came along to enlighten us without a damn bit of proof - amazing!
What are you talking about?
I said that theists feel safety in numbers, because it means they don't have to critically evaluate their own beliefs, they can just say well all these other theists believe too so it must be reasonable.
Which is why theists such as yourself pretend you don't care about numbers, you care about "truth", but then go out of your way to try and show that actually the numbers are on your side.
You need this other believers, because if you ever find yourself alone with just your own justifications for your belief, well then you are in trouble.0 -
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