Pushtrak wrote: » So, you know better what perspective someone has than the person who has that perspective?
If someone comes up to you with a random claim, you can accept it, reject it or have no reason to do either. Having no reason to do either isn't some neutral agnostic position, as theism is an affirmation of a belief, and atheism is not having done so.
JimiTime wrote: » Whether you like it or not, atheism is whats new to humanity, not theism, so its not 'some random claim'. Civilisations, including our own, have been built on among other things, religious ideologies.
Pushtrak wrote: » I was using the claim as an illustration, but really, to me I'm going to stand by it being just any claim. Civilizations are built by people.
Pushtrak wrote: » So, you know better what perspective someone has than the person who has that perspective? Interesting. Of course, you don't. If someone comes up to you with a random claim, you can accept it, reject it or have no reason to do either. Having no reason to do either isn't some neutral agnostic position, as theism is an affirmation of a belief, and atheism is not having done so.
JimiTime wrote: » It is completely accurate to say that atheism is the belief that gods don't exist. The fact that some atheists insist that 'NO, ITS THE NON BELIEF IN DEITIES' is rather silly. Its the same thing.
Fanny Cradock wrote: » Unbelievable? ran a show a number of weeks back trying to pin down the definition of "atheism". It focused on the whole "I lack the belief in God" / "I don't believe that God exists" formalisation until the show turned predictably to the Christian having to defend his beliefs. An interesting listen. Definitional problems, organised "services" (a fantastic listen for all, btw) and even a schism along the way. Welcome to club, lads.
Zombrex wrote: » Is the second man saying he knows there isn't a tiger behind the door?
nagirrac wrote: » Would he (the second man) open the door though? Atheism is such a lazy intellectual approach, it's basically saying don't ask me to think.. the amazing thing is how so many atheists are forced to think and thus argue about God... you would think they wouldn't care... including yourself. How many posts do you have on the Christianity forum compared to the atheist forum?
Zombrex wrote: » Do you really not understand this point, or are you just arguing for the sake of it. Because by Zeus this point has been explained to you enough times already. Two men stand in a room with a door behind it. The first man says "There is a tiger behind the door". The second man says "Don't be ridiculous, you couldn't possibly know that you are just making that up". Is the second man saying he knows there isn't a tiger behind the door?
JimiTime wrote: » If they call themselves atheists, and object to that being called the belief that no gods exist, then yes, I most certainly know what it is better than they do. Whether you like it or not, atheism is whats new to humanity, not theism, so its not 'some random claim'. Civilisations, including our own, have been built on among other things, religious ideologies. Of course, I've seen the whole 'NO, ATHEISM IS THIS' put very articulately, but its still BS. Its ridiculous that its even an issue. My suspicion, is that atheists that insist on this feel that saying that it means they BELIEVE something, somehow makes it religious. Its nonsense:) It just plays to the stereotype of the "I'm atheist. Argue with me damnit!'
nagirrac wrote: » Would he (the second man) open the door though?
nagirrac wrote: » Atheism is such a lazy intellectual approach, it's basically saying don't ask me to think..
nagirrac wrote: » the amazing thing is how so many atheists are forced to think and thus argue about God... you would think they wouldn't care... including yourself.
Zombrex wrote: » I'll stop caring about theism when theists stop trying to arrange the world based on their made up notions.
Fanny Cradock wrote: » The whole debate centres on the reliability of these notions. Sayin' they are made up don't make it so. You have to show us that they are made up. Given that theists aren't gong away any time soon I guess that means you'll be hanging around internet forums caring about theism for a while yet.
Fanny Cradock wrote: » The whole debate centres on the reliability of these notions. Sayin' they are made up don't make it so. You have to show us that they are made up.
Fanny Cradock wrote: » Given that theists aren't gong away any time soon I guess that means you'll be hanging around internet forums caring about theism for a while yet.
lmaopml wrote: » Yet over 84% of people claimed to be Catholic in the census. Those crazy Catholics ticking that box, they don't know what their doing exercising their right to self definition
Zombrex wrote: » Lol, you think those people are actual believers, do you?http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1130/1224327302533.html"More than one in five Irish Catholics do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus or that God created the universe, according to the Ipsos MRBI 50th anniversary poll. It found also that 7 per cent of Irish Catholics do not even believe in God. When it comes to making serious moral decisions, more than three-quarters (78 per cent) of Irish Catholics follow their own conscience rather than church teaching (17 per cent). Almost half of Irish Catholics (45 per cent) do not believe in Hell while almost a fifth (18 per cent) do not believe that God created man." Heck even all my atheist friends put down "Catholic" in the census because they thought they were being asked what they were baptized. None of them are believers.
PopePalpatine wrote: » Don't forget the numerous cases of Mammy filling in the census form for their kids, too.
Zombrex wrote: » Well no actually. Theists are the ones claim things about their religion.
Zombrex wrote: » You claim God exists. You claim God is the creator of the universe, source of all morality, punisher of sin etc. You claim Jesus was his son, who came to Earth, died and rose again. You claim all these things. If you wish that I, or others like me, believe these things as true you need to present better arguments than the ones you have so far.
marienbad wrote: » Talk about putting the cart before the horse !
Fanny Cradock wrote: » Theism is not a synonym for religion. Not all theists subscribe to religion.
Fanny Cradock wrote: » Yes, I claim that God exists. That you don't find any argument for God's existence to be compelling is most unfortunate. More so because I also believe that your choice has consequences beyond what you put on the census. But the thing is, Zombrex, I don't have to convince you. Indeed, if you have thus far rejected all arguments for the existence of God then I think it's highly unlikely that any argument will move you. Now, back on to the point of my post because I no longer have the stamina for running down rabbit trails. You said, "I'll stop caring about theism when theists stop trying to arrange the world based on their made up notions". Rather then dismiss theistic claims as made up notions you will have to demonstrate the truth of this assertion, especially if you happen to be making it in the midst of believers.
Fanny Cradock wrote: » Not quite. If you or anyone else wants to promote atheism then you are going to have to actively engage in the process of divesting the majority of the human race of their supernatural beliefs. Try looking at it from the side of those who don't presuppose that atheism is the correct worldview. Saying "it's made up" wont cut the mustard.
lmaopml wrote: » I have some sympathy with you Zombrex when you see people filling out the census form in a silly way - however, Atheist Ireland did do their best to run a campaign prior to the census, and apparently even all of your very own friends must not have heard of it or understood it properly....or else didn't really think of it's relevance. That's people for you!
lmaopml wrote: » I wouldn't be too rash in calling down the stupid gene on them though - they may have their very own reasons for the selection.
lmaopml wrote: » As far as being a 'Catholic' is concerned there are many ways in which people may ( and they are quite entitled to ) say they are indeed a Catholic, even 'if' they find that they are not always perfectly following her teachings.
lmaopml wrote: » In my honest opinion, most Catholics would be more than willing to help out minority groups in any community to settle in and to indeed have the resources available to them. In very many cases, the atheists don't even ask the local community for support though - they make a presumption - and tend to stick in groups. We're not all against minority groups having access to schools with a multidenom ethos.
Zombrex wrote: » Atheism is a statement about theists ....... I'll stop caring about theism when theists stop trying to arrange the world based on their made up notions.
I think you are confusing atheists with non-nationals there Imaopml? I've no idea what you are talking about. I went to an Educate Together school that was set up by the local community, as most of them are.
Zombrex wrote: » All I have to do is point out that you haven't done that so far. Reasonable people will reject what theists haven't been able to support, which is why post-Enlightenment religion is slowly but surely on the way out of the Western world. All you can do is watching the boat sail by and complain about how the modern world (ie logical and reasoned thinking) is leading us all into the depths of immorality and sin Well there is an acceptable level of non-influence where I can stop caring about theists........... To paraphrase Lincoln "Theism, its done sir"
Heck even all my atheist friends put down "Catholic" in the census because they thought they were being asked what they were baptized. None of them are believers.
Zombrex wrote: » I think it is more a reflection that Atheism Ireland doesn't have the deep pockets and centuries of cultural influence that the Catholic Church have. Maybe AI should tell people it is their moral duty to donate to them :P
They did have reasons, they told me. They said "Oh we thought that was asking what you were baptized" Its interesting that while atheist and humanists groups keep pointing out that no that isn't what is being asked, Catholic groups seem rather quiet on the subject...
Zombrex wrote: » The census has never matched up with actual polls.
I do find it amusing though that some pretend that they care not about numbers but about adhering to the "true" teachings of the religion and not compromising with beliefs just to boost numbers, but then get super defensive about the eroding numbers of believers. While they may like to pretend that their faith is rationally arrived at, the old saying "safety in numbers" certainly seems to ring through. Don't have to think too hard about our beliefs if we are surrounded by others who also believe. Sure they can't all be wrong, right!
lmaopml wrote: » I'll tell you what I find amusing. I find it amusing that according to yourself, your mission is to stop theists, 'arranging your world' and then go on to say that in fact the local community set up an ET school in your area with little or no problems apparently.
lmaopml wrote: » It sounds more to me like some atheists are more than keyboard warriors
lmaopml wrote: » Also, it's very amusing that you maintain there are three types of 'believers' and then go on to classify all of your very own friends as kind of daft enough to sign Catholic on the census when they aren't, especially considering they have your good self as their friend to help show them the way - In fact, according to you most people shouldn't really classify themselves at all because apparently they haven't got the wit to do so....
lmaopml wrote: » Then you maintain that most people only believe or tick a census because of the 'safe numbers' (which is really taking the piss tbh) and at the same time just prior to that you yourself make the claims that theism is dying out since the enlightened such as yourself came along to enlighten us without a damn bit of proof - amazing!
Zombrex wrote: » Most do, and this is the Christianity forum after all. (and before you say it, believing "only" in the Bible and Jesus is still a religion)
Zombrex wrote: » Again it is the other way around. I just have to point out the problems with your claims. Most people can understand the concept of an unsupported claim, and realise that if a claim is not supported it is not worth believing in.
Zombrex wrote: » Theism (and religion) have had a free ride of this for a long while, so people are not used to just sitting back and thinking "Umm, this stuff is nonsense". But the more atheists make this simple point, the more theism and religion crumble.
Zombrex wrote: » I don't say its made up. I say "How do you support your view".
Zombrex wrote: » The world is made up of 3 types of people, those who believe because they haven't thought about it, those who believe have thought about it but because they believe dismissed the problems with supporting their beliefs, and those that don't believe. 1 and 3 are the targets of atheism. 2, well they just have to be left to their own until hopefully they realize the problems are actual problems that cannot be squared.
Zombrex wrote: » I said that theists feel safety in numbers, because it means they don't have to critically evaluate their own beliefs, they can just say well all these other theists believe too so it must be reasonable. Which is why theists such as yourself pretend you don't care about numbers, you care about "truth", but then go out of your way to try and show that actually the numbers are on your side. You need this other believers, because if you ever find yourself alone with just your own justifications for your belief, well then you are in trouble.
