Artistic taste, in relation to intellect?

The Pontiac

Quite curious about this really.

Like, is someone who listens to Oasis less intelligent to someone who, for example, listens to Elliott Smith? Smith was largely influenced by The Beatles, as were Oasis, but anyone with a half a brain cell will know the Gallaghers copied The Beatles, whereas Elliott made his own music. Smith's music was/is beautiful and timeless. His fans were nice and decent people. Head off to an Oasis concert and you've got díckheads wearing hoodies and looking for a scrap. They probably never even listened to Elliott Smith.

Or, is someone who prefers Desperate Housewifes, to say, The Wire, less aware (for want of a better word)?

Are the folk who watch Pop Idol, X Factor et at. seriously lacking? The garbage they're watching - an 'artist' standing up on stage doing a cover of song, and folk at home voting for them. Art was never about competition. Alexandra Burke did an appalling version of Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah a few years ago and it made the Christmas No. 1. The John Cale version was great, as was the Rufus Wainwright version. The Jeff Buckley version is the best of all. But the people watching this shít (X factor) never even heard the original.

It really would make you wonder.

I'm not classing myself as an intellect by any means (I'm not an intellect). I'm just classing the 'others' as more stupid than I. Thanks.

Chuck Stone

Better to not try to judge people by their taste in TV or music imo.

So what if you're more 'intelligent' than other people?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

<Ollie> wrote: »

Quite curious about this really.

Like, is someone who listens to Oasis less intelligent to someone who, for example, listens to Elliott Smith? Smith was largely influenced by The Beatles, as were Oasis, but anyone with a half a brain cell will know the Gallaghers copied Oasis, whereas Elliott made his own music. Smith's music was/is beautiful and timeless. His fans were nice and decent people. Head off to an Oasis concert and you've got díckheads wearing hoodies and looking for a scrap. They probably never even listened to Elliott Smith.

Or, is someone who prefers Desperate Housewifes, to say, The Wire, less aware (for want of a better word)?

Are the folk who watch Pop Idol, X Factor et at. seriously lacking? The garbage they're watching - an 'artist' standing up on stage doing a cover of song, and folk at home voting for them. Art was never about competition. Alexandra Burke did an appalling version of Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah a few years ago and it made the Christmas No. 1. The John Cale version was great, as was the Rufus Wainwright version. The Jeff Buckley version is the best of all. But the people watching this shít (X factor) never even heard the original.

It really would make you wonder.

I'm not classing myself as an intellect by any means (I'm not an intellect). I'm just classing the 'others' as more stupid than I. Thanks.

When you say something is "better" than something else, what are you basing that on?

brummytom

It depends on why they like them.


If it's because everyone else does, then yes they're less intelligent. Look at Oliner and Oliner's study on locus of control (basically independent thought) and intelligent, it's interesting. Sorry, I've a psychology exam this week :pac:

But yeah. Liking Oasis for the music - they're wrong but not stupid. Liking Oasis because everyone does - Idiot.

It's all a bit Emperor's New Clothes really.

Fremen

Some stuff is more challenging than other stuff, for sure. I think much of someone's taste reflects their personality rather than their intellect, though. Of course, someone's intellect influences their personality too, so taste and intelligence aren't independent.

The fact that someone enjoys X-factor doesn't make them a moron. If they only enjoyed X-factor, you might have to start asking questions though.

Edit: I wouldn't be so sure the best of Elliott Smith is better than the best of Oasis by any means. He's a bit whiney, is Elliott.

The Pontiac

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

When you say something is "better" than something else, what are you basing that on?

Common sense.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

<Ollie> wrote: »

Common sense.

I smell an intellectual snob

How do you measure common sense?

blow69

A lot of the stuff you described OP is easily accessible. It doesn't require much brainpower.

Does it mean that people who watch are of low intelligence? No. It's just usually marketed heavily to appeal to a higher subset of people. This means people from different backgrounds absorb it.

For example, I would consider myself somewhat of a music snob. And I don't deny this.
However, the odd time, you would catch me nodding my head to a bit of Black Eyed Peas (who critically are fcuking terrible) etc.



Can't suffer the X Factor though. Now that is braindead TV.

pragmatic1

From personal experience I'd say yeah. But theres large crossover.

Thatnastyboy

So OP,

You are basically saying that you look down on people because of their taste in popular culture, t.v and music?

What the fook has taste in music got to do with intelligence?


Opinions of people should be formed on their character, not their background, 'intelligence', taste in whatever their into, social status, clothes they wear etc etc...

Maybe im taking what your post up wrong, i hope i am, if im not, you're just a d1ckhead

edit. intelligence: the ability to not have ones head stuck up ones hole when forming opinions of people.

Saila

excellent troll :cool:

so if we can find someone who likes a little from each category you theory is blown to pieces eh?

spinandscribble

someone else could come along and say common sense dictates only those who listen to classical music are intelligent.... this whole idea of relating musical tastes to intellect is a bit stupid. Personal taste is all it is.

m@cc@

<Ollie> wrote: »

It really would make you wonder.

It really doesn't. For the most part, I try to indulge myself in the music and tv which I enjoy as opposed to using other people as a benchmark upon which to base my interests.

OP, your post is a jumble of sweeping generalisations, presentation of opinion as fact, and most notably of all, irony.

You say you're wondering are people with bad taste less intelligent. The answer is no.

Your representation of what bad taste is, is unfounded.
Your representation of what intelligence is, is flawed.

It seems that you think that the ignorance of others towards TV shows/Artists that you like, suggests they lack the intelligence to appreciate them. In fact it's you who is exhibiting ignorance, towards the fact that the Wire is a TV show and Desperate Housewives is a TV show. The only relevant distinction between the two in this situation is that you like one and not the other.

Unpossible

brummytom wrote: »

If it's because everyone else does, then yes they're less intelligent. Look at Oliner and Oliner's study on locus of control (basically independent thought) and intelligent, it's interesting

[turkish] Well f**k me Tommy. What have you been reading? [/turkish]

K-9

Stephen Fry likes snooker and darts so it is possible to like more "commoner things" and appreciate the talent without being obnoxious or superior about it.

The Pontiac

Thatnastyboy wrote: »

So OP,

You are basically saying that you look down on people because of their taste in popular culture, t.v and music?

What the fook has tatse in music got to do with intelligence?


Opinions of people should be formed on their character, not their background, 'intelligence', taste in whatever their into, social status, clothes they wear etc etc...

Maybe im taking what your post up wrong, i hope i am, if im not, you're just an asshole

What a stupid post. Character? This is precisely what makes a person's character.

Read my opening post again, please.

My name is URL

Taste and perceived intellect are both absolutely subjective

TaraFoxglove

<Ollie> wrote: »

Quite curious about this really.

Like, is someone who listens to Oasis less intelligent to someone who, for example, listens to Elliott Smith? Smith was largely influenced by The Beatles, as were Oasis, but anyone with a half a brain cell will know the Gallaghers copied The Beatles, whereas Elliott made his own music. Smith's music was/is beautiful and timeless. His fans were nice and decent people. Head off to an Oasis concert and you've got díckheads wearing hoodies and looking for a scrap. They probably never even listened to Elliott Smith.

Or, is someone who prefers Desperate Housewifes, to say, The Wire, less aware (for want of a better word)?

Are the folk who watch Pop Idol, X Factor et at. seriously lacking? The garbage they're watching - an 'artist' standing up on stage doing a cover of song, and folk at home voting for them. Art was never about competition. Alexandra Burke did an appalling version of Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah a few years ago and it made the Christmas No. 1. The John Cale version was great, as was the Rufus Wainwright version. The Jeff Buckley version is the best of all. But the people watching this shít (X factor) never even heard the original.

It really would make you wonder.

I'm not classing myself as an intellect by any means (I'm not an intellect). I'm just classing the 'others' as more stupid than I. Thanks.

You band name-check good.

Thatnastyboy

<Ollie> wrote: »

What a stupid post. Character? This is precisely what makes a person's character.

Read my opening post again, please.

so someone who doesnt watch certain types of tv programme or listen to a specific musical genre has no character?

character is based on a lot more than taste...

spinandscribble

My name is URL wrote: »

Taste and perceived intellect are both absolutely subjective

really thats all there is to it.

This topic is like something off the back of the school bus by the boys who just discovered their dads cd collection....
i've known doctors who giddily excitedly watched it. they aren't dumb, not by any imagination, but their musical taste might be questionable...

mikom

<Ollie> wrote: »

Or, is someone who prefers Desperate Housewifes, to say, The Wire, less aware?

The intellectuals prefer Desperate Housewives.

smugchik

I think that it is dangerous to generalise. People tend to see things as a personal attack and react without actually reading the threads. As it has been said in an earlier post, if someone only enjoyed xfactor etc. then, yes there is something sadly lacking. (almost like someone onlyliking books with pictures in them?) I rarely watch tv but have watched these types of programmes when staying with friends and enjoyed them for what they are - candyfloss for the brain. (If I was going to comment on the programme to someone else the next day, I would start the sentence with "I'm ashamed to say that I watched ???? last night....")

I am a member of a film group when it is available and enjoy films from other countries that do not make it to the mainstream cinema. I have been teased by some about this calling me a film snob etc. That doesn't mean that I didn't laugh out loud when watching The Hangover while travelling on a boat. I thought it was the funniest thing that I had ever seen and it relieved the stress and sadness of my summer holiday coming to an end.

Music, a little more conservative maybe. There are 'types' associated with certain music. I cannot stand the Gallagher brothers and find them offensive and vulgar. Money not cancelling out the 'Shameless' upbringing that they had. However, I do like some of their music and own a couple of cd's. I would not go to one of their concerts though as I would not feel comfortable with their followers.

I too find it irritating when people do not realise that their favourite song is a cover version, or worse still, when they stare blankly when I try to tell them that their favourite film is an adaptation of a book and the ending is wrong. I know that they haven't got the natural curiosity to learn and I realise that I cannot change that and avoid them in my personal life wherever possible.


There is a taste issue with food choices too..(pardon the pun) but I think I have said enough for one posting....

The Pontiac

spinandscribble wrote: »

i've known doctors who giddily excitedly watched it. they aren't dumb, not by any imagination, but their musical taste might be questionable...

I don't know any, sorry. It's wouldn't be their musical taste that's in question, as there's no actual music on show in the X Factor.

I've also encountered some woeful GP's, that have absolutely no-clue in real life matters. Some people have lost their lives as a result.

Teddy_Picker

Hmm, but what about those who love The Wire but also enjoy what you perceive to be less "highbrow" entertainment? They must really rock your world!
You might enjoy The Wire for its quality but still enjoy Housewives as a bit of fluff, nothing too taxing on the brain.

As for music snobbery, gah, music snobs can drown in a vat of piss. Yes, I like and appreciate geniuses like The Beatles, Dylan etc. etc. but I also can love genuinely great pop songs, or as the case may be, ****e and cheesey ones that I can dance to at 1am on a weekend night. It doesn't say anything about my intellect.

Anyway,
/rant

TeddyTedson

Who da **** is dis elliate smith bitch. i ****ing love oasis der bleedin deadly you big gay you.
the gallaghers are legends.

The Pontiac

Teddy_Picker wrote: »

As for music snobbery, gah, music snobs can drown in a vat of piss. Yes, I like and appreciate geniuses like The Beatles, Dylan etc. etc. but I also can love genuinely great pop songs, or as the case may be, ****e and cheesey ones that I can dance to at 1am on a weekend night. It doesn't say anything about my intellect.

Anyway,
/rant

This is what písses me off. It's not music "snobbery". Jesus fúcking christ, go out and buy Elliott Smith's Figure 8, and compare it to Osais's (What's the story) Morning Glory? And then you might see the point I'm trying to make. If you don't, then you're exactly the person I was talking about in my opening post.

pragmatic1

My name is URL wrote: »

Taste and perceived intellect are both absolutely subjective

Taste is subjective. Intelligence is hard to define but people can generally tell the difference between and idiot and a genius.

Randomer.

People tend to get their backs up very easily when this topic comes up but there is some blunt truth to it.

To put it another way, those of a certain degree of intelligence seek intellectual stimulation, and yes, a tv show like the wire is far more intellectually stimulating than desperate housewives. Of course there are cross overs , but there are those people out there who have no desire to be intellectually stimulated ever and I find it amusing people would get defensive and cry out that such people are equally as intelligent as a person who constantly seeks intellectual stimulation.

Imo when you have a certain degree of intelligence , you feel the need to feed it.

brummytom wrote: »

It's all a bit Emperor's New Clothes really.

You been playing LA Noire by any chance?

starbelgrade

Elliot Smith is shit.

So are Oasis.

What's the point again?

--LOS--

People who listen to metal are more intelligent....FACT!

Teddy_Picker

This is what písses me off. It's not music "snobbery". Jesus fúcking christ, go out and buy Elliott Smith's Figure 8, and compare it to Osais's (What's the story) Morning Glory? And then you might see the point I'm trying to make. If you don't, then you're exactly the person I was talking about in my opening post.

Right, yes, I bend the knee to your superior taste and intellect. What am I only a mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging cretin.

Look, I don't need to listen to Elliott sodding Smith to know there are better bands and better songs than those of Oasis. But enjoying them doesn't make me an idiot.

Saila

Randomer. wrote: »

People tend to get their backs up very easily when this topic comes up but there is some blunt truth to it.

To put it another way, those of a certain degree of intelligence seek intellectual stimulation, and yes, a tv show like the wire is far more intellectually stimulating than desperate housewives. Of course there are cross overs , but there are those people out there who have no desire to be intellectually stimulated ever and I find it amusing people would get defensive and cry out that such people are equally as intelligent as a person who constantly seeks intellectual stimulation.

Imo when you have a certain degree of intelligence , you feel the need to feed it.

what is intelligence?

The Pontiac

starbelgrade wrote: »

Elliot Smith is shit.

So are Oasis.

What's the point again?

You make my point perfectly. It's Elliott, not "Elliot", always a good sign.

starbelgrade

<Ollie> wrote: »

Head off to an Oasis concert and you've got díckheads wearing hoodies and looking for a scrap.

I don't like Oasis, but I went to Slane with a mate to see them. Didn't see any dickheads wearing hoodies looking for a scrap.

I could say that an Elliot Smith gig would be full of pansy boy, chin stroking, musical nerds, with more brains than balls, but then again, I've never been to an Elliot Smith concert, so that'd be just another generalised preconception.

starbelgrade

<Ollie> wrote: »

You make my point perfectly. It's Elliott, not "Elliot", always a good sign.

Exactly how did I make your point perfectly?

nyarlothothep

--LOS-- wrote: »

People who listen to metal are more intelligent....FACT!

This is uniformly true, of course I would make the distinction between the some of the emo/commercial crap on scuzz or kerrang with high metal.

<Ollie>

<Ollie> wrote: »

You make my point perfectly. It's Elliott, not "Elliot", always a good sign.

I hear the double "t" is quite challenging to pronounce correctly when one's head is up one's own ass.

Aishae

out of interest why does it have to be one or the other to demonstrate ones intelligence? plenty of people wont like Elliott OR Oasis genres of music but will love more classical stuff of 70's boogie stuff. so what???

people will even like different things depending how theyre feeling ]again id say 'what of it?'

i know there are people out there who COULD be considered a bit lacking but it strikes me its not so much 'ah, he likes sh^t like the x factor - he must be thick' but more 'this person never seems to show much going on upstairs - he also happens to watch the x factor religiously'

you cant mistake hype surrounding a tv show or a music genre for the standard sheep following thing.

how many of us said we'd never watch a harry potter movie, be drawn into a spot of daytime tv, watch a soap, read a piece of chicklit or listen to kylie and then somehow ended up doing it even if its not all the time and were in the closet about it? light entertainment is just that. i wouldnt judge a person on it.

starbelgrade

nyarlothothep wrote: »

This is uniformly true, of course I would make the distinction between the some of the emo/commercial crap on scuzz or kerrang with high metal.

My Chemical Romance are the best metal band ever. Fact.

HAHAHA!

The Pontiac

starbelgrade wrote: »

I don't like Oasis, but I went to Slane with a mate to see them. Didn't see any dickheads wearing hoodies looking for a scrap.

I could say that an Elliot Smith gig would be full of pansy boy, chin stroking, musical nerds, with more brains than balls, but then again, I've never been to an Elliot Smith concert, so that'd be just another generalised preconception.

It's "Elliott" Just proves the whole point of my post, you never even listened to the guy. LOL. But you followed the herd and went to Slane, to see Oasis. Why did you do this? Oh, you just went along with a buddy. LOL

Saila

starbelgrade wrote: »

Exactly how did I make your point perfectly?

you satisfied his need to feel superior intellect to you..of course he has missed [or chose not to see] the point that you dont love that musician as much as him and spelled it wrong...these kind of people are beyond sad

starbelgrade

<Ollie> wrote: »

It's "Elliott" Just proves the whole point of my post, you never even listened to the guy. LOL. But you followed the herd and went to Slane, to see Oasis. Why did you do this? Oh, you just went along with a buddy. LOL

Jesus, you've some troll of head on you.

OPENROAD

starbelgrade wrote: »

I don't like Oasis, but I went to Slane with a mate to see them. Didn't see any dickheads wearing hoodies looking for a scrap.

I could say that an Elliot Smith gig would be full of pansy boy, chin stroking, musical nerds, with more brains than balls, but then again, I've never been to an Elliot Smith concert, so that'd be just another generalised preconception.

Like Stand by me, the bird in that video is very cute imo

Sinfonia

<Ollie> wrote: »

Are the folk who watch Pop Idol, X Factor et at. seriously lacking? The garbage they're watching - an 'artist' standing up on stage doing a cover of song, and folk at home voting for them. Art was never about competition.

Whatever about the rest of your post, I just want to dispell this, because realistically, art has always been about competition. I don't necessarily mean to say that all art is created with competition in mind, merely that all art that any kind of 'public' may encounter has succeeded in competition. Today, with Youtube, MySpace etc., people are able to reach large audiences very easily, and thus the internet is a great source for finding art from all over the world that would otherwise be inaccessible, but even the best known composers and musicians in history would not have a surviving reputation had there not been a champion for their work, be it a marketing agent, a manager, a panel of judges; someone with artistic and/or commercial influence.
Singing competitions, not incredibly far removed from the likes of The X Factor - in terms of judgement, homogeneity of composition, and audience participation - have existed since the 14th century, if not earlier. In the 19th century, Wagner wrote a whole opera (music drama) about such an event called Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg.

To be honest with you, I understand your point regarding a correlation between intelligence and musical tastes, but anything I could say here would be based on personal experience, and I don't really think this is the right forum for it, but I consider it naive of you to think that at its base, the production and popularisation of art - and perhaps more appropriately in this case, entertainment - is any different now than it has been for centuries.

K-9

<Ollie> wrote: »

You make my point perfectly. It's Elliott, not "Elliot", always a good sign.

Ah Ollie, nice of you to correct grammar.

Social intelligence is often over looked. As is cynicism. You've a hilarious posting history.

Those who can, do.

Those who can't, like - and put others down for not liking what they like.

This is particularly true of music. For some people, music is something to be played. For others, it's something to be enjoyed.I can understand and relate to the views of both of those groups of people. Then there is a third group, which is those who use musical taste as a form of vicarious intellectual capital. They can't actually play, but they use their "taste" in music to define themselves as being somehow smarter than people who don't share that "taste".

In my experience, men do this more than women, and it's something that more often than not starts in their teenage years.

It's a cool thing to do when you're a teenager, if for no other reason than that teenagers by and large don't have any real intellectual capital - so they need all the help they can get, and it makes sense to get that help vicariously through their musical heroes.

But when we grow up and actually earn ourselves some real intellectual capital it's a bit naff to keep carrying on like that, to be honest. Let's face it, we're talking about showbiz here.

So, if you're over 25, and you believe that there is a link between musical taste and intellect, and you reckon that your taste in music somehow sets you apart intellectually from people who don't share it, then you are definitely wrong and probably either immature, insecure, a bit silly, or a combination of all three.

Just saying, like. :cool:

K-9

K-9 wrote: »

Ah Ollie, nice of you to correct grammar.

It's "<Ollie>", not "Ollie". :P

The Pontiac

Deleted User wrote: »

I hear the double "t" is quite challenging to pronounce correctly when one's head is up one's own ass.

Not really, no. It just proves he didn't know the guy and his music.

And then you come out with the typical "musical snobbery" (and up your own ass) comment from the radio listeners (Oasis, Cold Play fans) .. Read my opening post again, this is what I'm getting at..

Saila

<Ollie> wrote: »

It's "Elliott" Just proves the whole point of my post, you never even listened to the guy. LOL. But you followed the herd and went to Slane, to see Oasis. Why did you do this? Oh, you just went along with a buddy. LOL

I think you mean haw haw no?, isnt lol for common thick people.
For what its worth Id take is as an insult to be called intelligent :mad:

My name is URL

<Ollie> wrote: »

Not really, no. It just proves he didn't know the guy and his music.

And then you come out with the typical "musical snobbery" (and up your own ass) comment from the radio listeners (Oasis, Cold Play fans) .. Read my opening post again, this is what I'm getting at..

What is your occupation? You can harp on all day about how musical preferences dictate a person's standing.. but I doubt you got a job by handing in your CD collection instead of a CV.