B.C.L v L.L.B

jacko1

The ranking of a university law school is, I agree, not the be all and end all for law firms.

But I can assure you that they will employ a university law graduate over a university non law graduate, or a private law school grad any day of the week

drkpower

jacko1 wrote: »

But I can assure you that they will employ a university law graduate over a university non law graduate, or a private law school grad any day of the week

Perhaps if all else is truly equal. Of course it rarely is, and law firms routinely choose non-law graduates over law graduates for trainee positions.

johnfás

jacko1 wrote: »

The ranking of a university law school is, I agree, not the be all and end all for law firms.

But I can assure you that they will employ a university law graduate over a university non law graduate, or a private law school grad any day of the week

My primary degree was in a discipline other than law. It was not a disadvantage to me nor was it to other people in my intake who also have different primary undergraduate degrees.

I wouldn't believe alot of the "assurances" on this thread.

shaneybaby

johnfás wrote: »

My primary degree was in a discipline other than law. It was not a disadvantage to me nor was it to other people in my intake who also have different primary undergraduate degrees.

I wouldn't believe alot of the "assurances" on this thread.

Same as you. Work experience, Interests associated with the area of law, languages, personality. They're all just as influential as a law degree. No point in a solicitor having a 1.1 from trinty but they can't actually talk to clients.

Kosseegan

Anyone who goes into an interview talking about how good their college was and how good their results were , is doomed. By the time someone gets to the interview chair other attributes are far more important.

bob_lob_law

I don't really have an opinion on the college wars stuff but surely in the realm of academics a recruiter will want to see a good leaving, which for a lot of people determines where they will study... Conversely a person could get 600 points in their leaving, decide to go to a university that is perceived to be below Trinity or where ever and thus get picked above someone who went to what is regarded to be a better university. This would obviously ring all the more true for the fresh faced (read: spotty) 21 year old, before the more distinguished, accomplished and better looking mature students go off on one!

That turned out to be a bit convoluted but it's all swings and roundabouts I suppose is what I'm trying to say!

Kosseegan

No recruiter is going to tot up Leaving Cert points. It is questionable if the leaving Cert results should be on the CV at all. For the greater part of the work of solicitors, it is sufficient that the person passed the FE-1s. They are intelligent enough and know enough law to do the job. The real emphasis at interview is on personal qualities. There are some jobs where there will be a requirement for a heavy duty academic interest in a particular area of law. Most recruiters would be looking for published papers in journals rather than exam results. Exam results can be heavily influenced by access to the right grind school, tips from lecturers, predictability of questions and rushed correction by examiners.

XxMCRxBabyxX

Kosseegan wrote: »

No recruiter is going to tot up Leaving Cert points. It is questionable if the leaving Cert results should be on the CV at all. For the greater part of the work of solicitors, it is sufficient that the person passed the FE-1s. They are intelligent enough and know enough law to do the job. The real emphasis at interview is on personal qualities. There are some jobs where there will be a requirement for a heavy duty academic interest in a particular area of law. Most recruiters would be looking for published papers in journals rather than exam results. Exam results can be heavily influenced by access to the right grind school, tips from lecturers, predictability of questions and rushed correction by examiners.

Then explain why every top firm asks for lc points. I've been told myself that lc points are a factor when they look at applications

Jev/N

Kosseegan wrote: »

Exam results can be heavily influenced by access to the right grind school, tips from lecturers, predictability of questions and rushed correction by examiners.

Possibly but I would regard them as mainly wanting to see consistency throughout

Lynnsie

drkpower wrote: »

Noone cares where you went to uni; they will care (to a degree) what results you got; what they care about most is what type of person you are and what kind of interest/aptitude/potential you show in the particular area of law they are looking for.

College wars end in the college bar. They dont exist in real life.

Agree with this, your academics are one of many factors that will be considered and are not the only things that firms will look at. I went to NUIG (which according to an earlier post is near the bottom of the list) and when we graduated quite a few of of my classmates had training contracts with big firms.

Later on in your career, the college you went to and the degree you did aren't really a factor at all.

As for the original question - BCL and LLB are basically the same, I can't see how one would be preferred over the other.

johnfás

1) Getting a job in a large firm is not the be all and end all.

2) Leaving Cert results are simply an efficient way of culling a large number of applicants. The large firms get 700+ applications and do not go through them all. They'll use certain figures like Leaving Cert results to do an initial cull. Once and if you get through that cull, leaving cert points are completely irrelevant. It comes down to whether you appear bright, motivated and a suitable fit to their organisation. Most important of all is a willingness to learn. Anybody who walks into an interview with a sense of entitlement that they deserve the job more than the person waiting outside the room because they went to what they perceive to be a better university will more likely than not be sorely disappointed.

brian__foley

johnfás wrote: »

My primary degree was in a discipline other than law. It was not a disadvantage to me nor was it to other people in my intake who also have different primary undergraduate degrees.

Nor would it appear to have been a disadvantage to the many, many top-notch (and high placed) solicitors in this country who do not have primary degrees in law but in accounting, business, biochemistry, economics etc.

Kosseegan

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Then explain why every top firm asks for lc points. I've been told myself that lc points are a factor when they look at applications

They ask for points because they are not going to tot them up. They don't call every applicant for interview. Anything which gives a reason to avoid interviewing a particular candidate will be used. An appointment will not be decided on the basis of one candidate having more LC points than another.

Parry_Repost

The issue with what law school you go to really has little impact on employment. I second the afore mentioned that any nui will be well regarded over none law and private law college degrees. Some of it will come down to the factors of personnal decision in the firms.

The issue with chosing the law school for you should be for your own education. Now law firms will hire from everywhere but how quickly you advance after that is based on competency, this will be majorly influenced by the standard of education you have had.

Different college have different fields in which they have better lecturers that is always a factor so it depends what area of law you go to specialise in, a rule of thumb suggests dublin as a capital city will have better lecturers (UCD,TCD) but thats spread over 2 universities.

Simply to give my two cents, stop over analysising it. Do a masters that will garuntee your employability!

McCrack

Parry_Repost wrote: »

The issue with what law school you go to really has little impact on employment. I second the afore mentioned that any nui will be well regarded over none law and private law college degrees. Some of it will come down to the factors of personnal decision in the firms.

The issue with chosing the law school for you should be for your own education. Now law firms will hire from everywhere but how quickly you advance after that is based on competency, this will be majorly influenced by the standard of education you have had.

Different college have different fields in which they have better lecturers that is always a factor so it depends what area of law you go to specialise in, a rule of thumb suggests dublin as a capital city will have better lecturers (UCD,TCD) but thats spread over 2 universities.

Simply to give my two cents, stop over analysising it. Do a masters that will garuntee your employability!

They are 10 a penny. Experience working in practice is the key to securing an apprenticeship. You are more marketable due to having practical experience and you make contacts which you can use to open doors for you. Academics doesn't prepare anybody for the profession. The job is a skill learnt from practice not from a text book.

dienbienphu

Miss Lala wrote: »

Agree with this, your academics are one of many factors that will be considered and are not the only things that firms will look at. I went to NUIG (which according to an earlier post is near the bottom of the list) and when we graduated quite a few of of my classmates had training contracts with big firms.

Later on in your career, the college you went to and the degree you did aren't really a factor at all.

As for the original question - BCL and LLB are basically the same, I can't see how one would be preferred over the other.

NUI Maynooth LLB (4 years):

Year 1
Tort Law 1
Contract Law 1
Legal Writing and
Advocacy (2 semesters)
Moot Court -1
Tort Law 2
Contract Law 2
Criminal Law 1
Moot Court -2
Year 2
Constitutional Law 1
Administrative Law
European Law 1
Criminal Law 2
European Law 2
Constitutional Law 2
Evidence Law
Year 3
Equity and Trusts
Land Law 1
Jurisprudence
Land Law 2
Company Law 1
Intellectual Property Law
Year 4
Company Law 2
Tax Law
International Law
Alternative Dispute
Resolution
Banking and Financial
Law
Commercial Litigation
Dissertation
NUI Maynooth BCL (3 years in conjunction with another subject):

Year 1
Contract Law 1
Contract Law 2
Constitutional Law 1
Constitutional Law 2
Administrative Law
Year 2
Law of Torts 1
Law of European Union 1
Criminal Law 1
Law of Evidence 1
Law of Torts 2
Law of European Union 2
Criminal Law 2
Law of Evidence 2
Year 3
Equity and Law of Trusts 1
Land Law 1
Company Law
Equity and Law of Trusts 2
Land Law 2
Jurisprudence

buyer95

As a student heading into 6th year, I am interested in the previous assertion that in U.L is the proverbial " bottom of the barrel " when it comes to law schools in this country. This interest me primarily because, recently I have been thinking that I would like to do the Law Plus( http://www3.ul.ie/courses/LawPlus.php) degree in U.L, which is the basic law degree, with another module(ie History). Law is where my interest lies, but I also have a love of History.

But this thread has made me rethink. Another of the options I have been considering is the law degree in U.C.C(http://www.ucc.ie/en/study/undergrad/what/businesslaw/law/) which according to this is a better degree? Another option is Law Clinical,( http://www.ucc.ie/en/study/undergrad/what/businesslaw/law-clinical/ ), which again is U.C.C.

I would just like peoples thoughts on this conundrum, and also, if anyone has completed, or is in the process of completing these degrees, their opinion of them.

Much appreciated

Procrastastudy

6th year using the word conundrum off to Trinity with you you young Scallywag!

Actually the nicest students of the lot Trinners imo!

We've a few refugees for UL in GCD at the moment none from UCC but maybe they end up in GCC. My advice is do what you think is going to interest you the most. The worst that's going to happen is you'll end up unemployed which is whats going to happen if you do a law degree anyway.

Also don't get caught up in any Law School snobbery. It may effect you if you're looking to become a solicitor but there are people at the bar who have graduated from GCD and I'd hazard a guess there's even the odd one from DBS. There are some excellent lecturers at UL (and some crap ones I'm sure). You have to give them Kudos for having their own mock court room!

Also get yourself on the debating team if you aren't already!

XxMCRxBabyxX

buyer95 wrote: »

As a student heading into 6th year, I am interested in the previous assertion that in U.L is the proverbial " bottom of the barrel " when it comes to law schools in this country. This interest me primarily because, recently I have been thinking that I would like to do the Law Plus( http://www3.ul.ie/courses/LawPlus.php) degree in U.L, which is the basic law degree, with another module(ie History). Law is where my interest lies, but I also have a love of History.

But this thread has made me rethink. Another of the options I have been considering is the law degree in U.C.C(http://www.ucc.ie/en/study/undergrad/what/businesslaw/law/) which according to this is a better degree? Another option is Law Clinical,( http://www.ucc.ie/en/study/undergrad/what/businesslaw/law-clinical/ ), which again is U.C.C.

I would just like peoples thoughts on this conundrum, and also, if anyone has completed, or is in the process of completing these degrees, their opinion of them.

Much appreciated

Just as an FYI you can do Law and History (thorough Law and Arts (BCL) (MH115) or Arts (MH101)) in Maynooth and you can get the opportunity to do a year long work work placement in some fairly highly ranked places which will combine both your interest in history and work placement with your degree. This is what I am doing ATM btw and have just finished my placement year in a big 5 firm.

I wouldn't worry about how a school is ranked too much if you can get yourself a work placement. That will take you much further than rankings will.

buyer95

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

6th year using the word conundrum off to Trinity with you you young Scallywag!

Actually the nicest students of the lot Trinners imo!

We've a few refugees for UL in GCD at the moment none from UCC but maybe they end up in GCC. My advice is do what you think is going to interest you the most. The worst that's going to happen is you'll end up unemployed which is whats going to happen if you do a law degree anyway.

Thanks for that encouraging statement, really makes me want to give the Law thing a go!

The way I look at is, the law degree in U.L is 4 years, then a year in Blackhalls or Kings Inn, and who is to say what the economy will be like then. I'm going to pursue my interest , regardless, and then reaccess, a Law degree is not a degree like primary school teaching, where, you have no other options...

Yes I am aware that there is a long list of unemployed law graduates, but the other courses I am considering are much the same story,( Primary School Teaching, an arts degree with a view to teaching something like English and History...)

Procrastastudy

buyer95 wrote: »

Yes I am aware that there is a long list of unemployed law graduates, but the other courses I am considering are much the same story,( Primary School Teaching, an arts degree with a view to teaching something like English and History...)

Some how mucker I don't think you'll be among them. Good luck and grab every extracurricular activity you can - you'll meet some amazing people on the debating and mooting circuits.

If any of the law schools offer FLAC (Free legal advice centre) or anything like the GCD innocence project use that as a major weighting factor. Make sure you submit a paper here and there and enjoy your time at Uni as it'll never come again. Unless you do what I do and marry someone rich and go back and do a law degree!

I personally love Law mainly because of the arguing but the historical aspect of it is also great. Some of the most amazing historical figures were involved in the legal profession somehow! Another things that's really odd - pick up a 19th century judgment and read it against a modern day one - see which you think is easier to understand - maybe it's just me!

buyer95

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Just as an FYI you can do Law and History (thorough Law and Arts (BCL) (MH115) or Arts (MH101)) in Maynooth and you can get the opportunity to do a year long work work placement in some fairly highly ranked places which will combine both your interest in history and work placement with your degree. This is what I am doing ATM btw and have just finished my placement year in a big 5 firm.

I wouldn't worry about how a school is ranked too much if you can get yourself a work placement. That will take you much further than rankings will.

Thanks for the heads up, and I will consider it. But tbh, I live in Kerry and Maynooth had never even entered my head as a possibility, however the more options the better.

AFAIK, U.L, also offer work placements, but I'm not 100% sure about that

smeal

As a DCU law student who has been present at several internship meetings from the Top 5 I can tell you that they couldn't care less about the college you go to and to a certain degree they aren't looking for top achievers in the class either. They're more interested in you as a person; your personality, any other skills you have, what you could bring to legal surroundings etc.

I'm aware that in many interviews for interships etc they question you on current affairs for example I know a girl who at the time of her interview was asked her opinion on the Obama visit to Ireland. As far as I know it's a pretty grounded, laid back interview so it would'nt surprise me that people who march in there on their high horses boasting about their "successful" college don't stand a chance.

XxMCRxBabyxX

buyer95 wrote: »

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Just as an FYI you can do Law and History (thorough Law and Arts (BCL) (MH115) or Arts (MH101)) in Maynooth and you can get the opportunity to do a year long work work placement in some fairly highly ranked places which will combine both your interest in history and work placement with your degree. This is what I am doing ATM btw and have just finished my placement year in a big 5 firm.

I wouldn't worry about how a school is ranked too much if you can get yourself a work placement. That will take you much further than rankings will.

Thanks for the heads up, and I will consider it. But tbh, I live in Kerry and Maynooth had never even entered my head as a possibility, however the more options the better.

AFAIK, U.L, also offer work placements, but I'm not 100% sure about that

May as well have as many options as possible! :-)

Maynooth also have the option to do law as an arts subject and transfer into the full law degree in second year as long as you get the marks so I'd advise at least putting arts down as you bottom of the list backup. It saved me!

Unless it's an issue that you are planning on commuting I wouldn't let place be an issue! Sometimes it's great not to br so close to home!

I know that there are some law and accounting students in the firm I'm in for 8 months so they probably do but I don't know if that is the same for law plus.

Marcusm

drkpower wrote: »

College wars end in the college bar. They dont exist in real life.

You've never seen Oxford v Cambridge rivalry in the workplace, Jesus such large disputes over such small issues.

Procrastastudy

Marcusm wrote: »

You've never seen Oxford v Cambridge rivalry in the workplace, Jesus such large disputes over such small issues.

To be fair, one is a sophisticated city in the South East of England the other is in a bog in East Anglia.