B.C.L v L.L.B

dienbienphu

Hi,
I was just wondering whether an L.L.B in Law is more valuable than a B.C.L? Our lecturer told us if we undertook an L.L.B. degree we could almost guarantee ourselves a lucrative job at the end of it. The L.L.B is 1 year longer than the BCL but Im unsure whether it would be worth doing.

jacko1

absolutely no difference - LLB (Legum Baccalaureus) is effectively the latin for BCL.

Law firms are more interested in the quality of the law school that you attended rather than whether your degree is in English or latin.

As a rule of thumb the top law firms recruit primarily from the traditional university law degrees . in rank order these are generally perceived as being

TCD
UCC
UCD
NUIG
UL

They have no real interest in people from the GCD / Portobello background

Within the University sector there is now more demand for Law + degrees

-Law& French
-Law & Economics
-Law (International)
-Law (Clinical)

etc

beeftotheheels

Outside Ireland LLB is probably a better known standard.

BCL can be confused with the Oxford BCL which is one of the most prestigious masters law degrees in law in the world so if you're ever applying outside Ireland make sure no one makes that mistake!

dienbienphu

thanks for the replies. it says on the UCC website that the L.L.B. is a post graduate option. so if one finishes with a BCL i take it they can take 1 further year of study to obtain the LLB if they need it?

234

dienbienphu wrote: »

Our lecturer told us if we undertook an L.L.B. degree we could almost guarantee ourselves a lucrative job at the end of it.

Your lecturer is living a complete fantasy.

dienbienphu

234 wrote: »

Your lecturer is living a complete fantasy.

well its either that or he is trying to boost the prestige of the law school by creating the LLB programme.
i dont see any reason why you would spend another year doing an LLB because you can pretty much sit the kings inn and the fe1s with a BCL.

FreudianSlippers

dienbienphu wrote: »

well its either that or he is trying to boost the prestige of the law school by creating the LLB programme.
i dont see any reason why you would spend another year doing an LLB because you can pretty much sit the kings inn and the fe1s with a BCL.

Once your degree is King's Inns approved that is.

dienbienphu

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Once your degree is King's Inns approved that is.

it is

johnnyskeleton

jacko1 wrote: »

TCD
UCC
UCD
NUIG
UL

Without getting into Trinity vs UCD which is a whole other pointless endeavour, why out of curiosity do you rank UCC over UCD? Is there a logic to it or are you a UCC grad?

FreudianSlippers

I also wouldn't say they have no interest in GCD students necessarily. But I don't know anything really about getting a job at a solicitors firm.

I would imagine it wouldn't make any difference if you were just applying for a job in house.

almostnever

Is there actually anything to that perception that the big firms prefer graduates from certain colleges? I always thought it was something of a myth but a lot of people in my year think it rings true.

dienbienphu

almostnever wrote: »

Is there actually anything to that perception that the big firms prefer graduates from certain colleges? I always thought it was something of a myth but a lot of people in my year think it rings true.

its bull. i know of a guy who got an internship with matheson ormsby and prentice and we're ranked at the bottom of law schools

234

dienbienphu wrote: »

well its either that or he is trying to boost the prestige of the law school by creating the LLB programme.
i dont see any reason why you would spend another year doing an LLB because you can pretty much sit the kings inn and the fe1s with a BCL.

Absolutely. I wonder what your lecturer would say these lucrative jobs were when questioned? He of all people would know that a LLB or any other law degree qualifies you for nothing.

ananas

jacko1 wrote: »

absolutely no difference - LLB (Legum Baccalaureus) is effectively the latin for BCL.

Law firms are more interested in the quality of the law school that you attended rather than whether your degree is in English or latin.

As a rule of thumb the top law firms recruit primarily from the traditional university law degrees . in rank order these are generally perceived as being

TCD
UCC
UCD
NUIG
UL

They have no real interest in people from the GCD / Portobello background

Within the University sector there is now more demand for Law + degrees

-Law& French
-Law & Economics
-Law (International)
-Law (Clinical)

etc

I'd love to hear where you have gotten your statistics from.

beeftotheheels

almostnever wrote: »

Is there actually anything to that perception that the big firms prefer graduates from certain colleges? I always thought it was something of a myth but a lot of people in my year think it rings true.

I don't think it is entirely simple as you have to remember that when it comes to selecting candidates for interview, or offering jobs from interview, the process involves human beings acting within certain guidelines.

So, if the person choosing applicants for interview/ interviewer has 500+ points and a degree from a redbrick institution, the chances are that they are going to show some preference for candidates with 500+ points and a degree from a redbrick institution.

If that individual came into the profession through a circuitous route, then they may show a slight preference towards candidates with a similar background.

I suspect that once you get to interview stage it is less important, but at application stage all the person assessing the application knows about you is what is on the piece of paper in front of them, and points and course studied are going to factor in that if nothing else separates two applicants.

jacko1

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Without getting into Trinity vs UCD which is a whole other pointless endeavour, why out of curiosity do you rank UCC over UCD? Is there a logic to it or are you a UCC grad?

UCC research output is very high in recent years - leading the way in areas such as child law, human rights, environmental, eu, medical law etc

ViP3r

I'm doing a BA Hons in Law in IT carlow. The degree is effectively an LLB. It's overseen by nui, covers all the usual stuff and we have fairly high examination standards. When I say high standards, it's because of 3 hour exams without statute books ( Excluding EU ). Apparently the higher standard is to do with the kings inns imposing them on the course as a condition for recognition.

Kosseegan

dienbienphu wrote: »

i dont see any reason why you would spend another year doing an LLB because you can pretty much sit the kings inn and the fe1s with a BCL.

Why do a degree at all then? It often helps in practise to have had further academic training and more specialised knowledge of some areas than a general degree will provide.

johnnyskeleton

jacko1 wrote: »

UCC research output is very high in recent years - leading the way in areas such as child law, human rights, environmental, eu, medical law etc

Assuming for the moment that that is true and that solicitors care about academic research, what makes you think that solicitors believe students at UCC recieve a better education than those in other universities because of the academic research that, largely, will not come close to the undergraduates?

FreudianSlippers

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Assuming for the moment that that is true and that solicitors care about academic research, what makes you think that solicitors believe students at UCC recieve a better education than those in other universities because of the academic research that, largely, will not come close to the undergraduates?

I have to agree here. Are we talking about professional "lawyers" or academics?

Honestly in the King's Inns I don't think it matters if you went to toilet paper folding academy once you do the dip and pass the exams.
I'd imagine it's different for Solicitors because you are put in an interview situation.

For research and academics, your undergraduate is nowhere near as important as your postgraduate IMO.

drkpower

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Honestly in the King's Inns I don't think it matters if you went to toilet paper folding academy once you do the dip and pass the exams.
I'd imagine it's different for Solicitors because you are put in an interview situation.

Nah, its much the same for solicitors unless you happen to be vetted/interviewed by someone with an irrational prejudice for/against a particular institution.

Noone cares where you went to uni; they will care (to a degree) what results you got; what they care about most is what type of person you are and what kind of interest/aptitude/potential you show in the particular area of law they are looking for.

College wars end in the college bar. They dont exist in real life.

XxMCRxBabyxX

dienbienphu wrote: »

its bull. i know of a guy who got an internship with matheson ormsby and prentice and we're ranked at the bottom of law schools

Any chance you're in Maynooth?

They're trying to push the LLB there as it's a new degree. Although if I had had the chance to do it I would have gone for it as opposed to Law and Arts!

And the MOP internship was exclusive to Maynooth so thats why he got it. I got the other one :P
Not that that that completely proves the certain colleges get picked theory but you can't use him as an example :P

Arsenal1986

Defo UCD above UCC as regards law firms perceptions of law schools, its not even close! I'm not a graduate of either so not biased!

dienbienphu

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Any chance you're in Maynooth?

They're trying to push the LLB there as it's a new degree. Although if I had had the chance to do it I would have gone for it as opposed to Law and Arts!

And the MOP internship was exclusive to Maynooth so thats why he got it. I got the other one :P
Not that that that completely proves the certain colleges get picked theory but you can't use him as an example :P

ya maynooth. oh really, i didnt know that. in that case, the law department must have friends in high places!

as from what i can see from this thread, theres no point doing another year. the reason i wouldnt is because im a mature student so time is of the essence if you know what i mean! i need to get the ball rolling as fast as i can

drkpower

Arsenal1986 wrote: »

Defo UCD above UCC as regards law firms perceptions of law schools, its not even close! I'm not a graduate of either so not biased!

But you are still wrong. Law firms dont care what law school you went too. In many cases they dont even care whether you went to law school at all!

lawladdie

jacko1 wrote: »

UCC research output is very high in recent years - leading the way in areas such as child law, human rights, environmental, eu, medical law etc

I think all the law schools including Cork are doing good research but that looks like you've been reading too many UCC press releases!

I would have thought Geoffrey Shannon was the child law guru for example - he does all the important reports, heads up all the govt policy stuff and his book seems highly rated

http://www.ialt.ie/about-us/prizes-competitions/book-prize/

And I think other schools would rank ahead of Cork in some of the areas you mention - Trinity for environmental, Galway for human rights and UCD for eu.

Arsenal1986

I would agree that it doesnt seem to be a big factor for Law firms but it is certainly a factor, and the perception would generally be UCD over UCC.

drkpower

Arsenal1986 wrote: »

I would agree that it doesnt seem to be a big factor for Law firms but it is certainly a factor, and the perception would generally be UCD over UCC.

No; it is not even a factor.

The colour of your shoes is as much a factor as a particular university to those who vet & interview potential trainees.

johnnyskeleton

drkpower wrote: »

No; it is not even a factor.

The colour of your shoes is as much a factor as a particular university to those who vet & interview potential trainees.

While you do have a point that for many if not most solicitors it is irrelevant, I don't think you can say that it is not relevant to every single solicitors firm.

Apart from anything else, don't the big firms do milk rounds in the major universities, suggesting that they do have a preference for the larger institutions?

drkpower

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

While you do have a point that for many if not most solicitors it is irrelevant, I don't think you can say that it is not relevant to every single solicitors firm.

Apart from anything else, don't the big firms do milk rounds in the major universities, suggesting that they do have a preference for the larger institutions?

Well, sure, there may be a small firm in Muff who are all for UCC grads.....:p

Big firms doing milk rounds in the big unis is simply about efficiency; a firm can get its message out to many potential trainees without wasting too many man hours. Does the fact that big firms dont do milk rounds in Harvard suggest they would not prefer a Harvard graduate over a UCC grad?

Listen, i dont doubt that there are some solicitors out there who will (perhaps subconciously) rank a candidate higher becasuse of where their degree is from. However, for the vast majority of solicitors and particularly the larger firms, the institution from where you got your degree is so minor a factor that it is negligible.

LadyLily

To reassure people out there, I did my degree in UL supposedly the "bottom" according to previous posts, I got both an internship and training contract in one of the Top 5 on first try...As anyone who has been in any of these firms knows, there is a mix from all the universities, so do not be turned off by hearsay:)

jacko1

The ranking of a university law school is, I agree, not the be all and end all for law firms.

But I can assure you that they will employ a university law graduate over a university non law graduate, or a private law school grad any day of the week

drkpower

jacko1 wrote: »

But I can assure you that they will employ a university law graduate over a university non law graduate, or a private law school grad any day of the week

Perhaps if all else is truly equal. Of course it rarely is, and law firms routinely choose non-law graduates over law graduates for trainee positions.

johnfás

jacko1 wrote: »

The ranking of a university law school is, I agree, not the be all and end all for law firms.

But I can assure you that they will employ a university law graduate over a university non law graduate, or a private law school grad any day of the week

My primary degree was in a discipline other than law. It was not a disadvantage to me nor was it to other people in my intake who also have different primary undergraduate degrees.

I wouldn't believe alot of the "assurances" on this thread.

shaneybaby

johnfás wrote: »

My primary degree was in a discipline other than law. It was not a disadvantage to me nor was it to other people in my intake who also have different primary undergraduate degrees.

I wouldn't believe alot of the "assurances" on this thread.

Same as you. Work experience, Interests associated with the area of law, languages, personality. They're all just as influential as a law degree. No point in a solicitor having a 1.1 from trinty but they can't actually talk to clients.

Kosseegan

Anyone who goes into an interview talking about how good their college was and how good their results were , is doomed. By the time someone gets to the interview chair other attributes are far more important.

bob_lob_law

I don't really have an opinion on the college wars stuff but surely in the realm of academics a recruiter will want to see a good leaving, which for a lot of people determines where they will study... Conversely a person could get 600 points in their leaving, decide to go to a university that is perceived to be below Trinity or where ever and thus get picked above someone who went to what is regarded to be a better university. This would obviously ring all the more true for the fresh faced (read: spotty) 21 year old, before the more distinguished, accomplished and better looking mature students go off on one!

That turned out to be a bit convoluted but it's all swings and roundabouts I suppose is what I'm trying to say!

Kosseegan

No recruiter is going to tot up Leaving Cert points. It is questionable if the leaving Cert results should be on the CV at all. For the greater part of the work of solicitors, it is sufficient that the person passed the FE-1s. They are intelligent enough and know enough law to do the job. The real emphasis at interview is on personal qualities. There are some jobs where there will be a requirement for a heavy duty academic interest in a particular area of law. Most recruiters would be looking for published papers in journals rather than exam results. Exam results can be heavily influenced by access to the right grind school, tips from lecturers, predictability of questions and rushed correction by examiners.

XxMCRxBabyxX

Kosseegan wrote: »

No recruiter is going to tot up Leaving Cert points. It is questionable if the leaving Cert results should be on the CV at all. For the greater part of the work of solicitors, it is sufficient that the person passed the FE-1s. They are intelligent enough and know enough law to do the job. The real emphasis at interview is on personal qualities. There are some jobs where there will be a requirement for a heavy duty academic interest in a particular area of law. Most recruiters would be looking for published papers in journals rather than exam results. Exam results can be heavily influenced by access to the right grind school, tips from lecturers, predictability of questions and rushed correction by examiners.

Then explain why every top firm asks for lc points. I've been told myself that lc points are a factor when they look at applications

Jev/N

Kosseegan wrote: »

Exam results can be heavily influenced by access to the right grind school, tips from lecturers, predictability of questions and rushed correction by examiners.

Possibly but I would regard them as mainly wanting to see consistency throughout

Lynnsie

drkpower wrote: »

Noone cares where you went to uni; they will care (to a degree) what results you got; what they care about most is what type of person you are and what kind of interest/aptitude/potential you show in the particular area of law they are looking for.

College wars end in the college bar. They dont exist in real life.

Agree with this, your academics are one of many factors that will be considered and are not the only things that firms will look at. I went to NUIG (which according to an earlier post is near the bottom of the list) and when we graduated quite a few of of my classmates had training contracts with big firms.

Later on in your career, the college you went to and the degree you did aren't really a factor at all.

As for the original question - BCL and LLB are basically the same, I can't see how one would be preferred over the other.

johnfás

1) Getting a job in a large firm is not the be all and end all.

2) Leaving Cert results are simply an efficient way of culling a large number of applicants. The large firms get 700+ applications and do not go through them all. They'll use certain figures like Leaving Cert results to do an initial cull. Once and if you get through that cull, leaving cert points are completely irrelevant. It comes down to whether you appear bright, motivated and a suitable fit to their organisation. Most important of all is a willingness to learn. Anybody who walks into an interview with a sense of entitlement that they deserve the job more than the person waiting outside the room because they went to what they perceive to be a better university will more likely than not be sorely disappointed.

brian__foley

johnfás wrote: »

My primary degree was in a discipline other than law. It was not a disadvantage to me nor was it to other people in my intake who also have different primary undergraduate degrees.

Nor would it appear to have been a disadvantage to the many, many top-notch (and high placed) solicitors in this country who do not have primary degrees in law but in accounting, business, biochemistry, economics etc.

Kosseegan

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Then explain why every top firm asks for lc points. I've been told myself that lc points are a factor when they look at applications

They ask for points because they are not going to tot them up. They don't call every applicant for interview. Anything which gives a reason to avoid interviewing a particular candidate will be used. An appointment will not be decided on the basis of one candidate having more LC points than another.

Parry_Repost

The issue with what law school you go to really has little impact on employment. I second the afore mentioned that any nui will be well regarded over none law and private law college degrees. Some of it will come down to the factors of personnal decision in the firms.

The issue with chosing the law school for you should be for your own education. Now law firms will hire from everywhere but how quickly you advance after that is based on competency, this will be majorly influenced by the standard of education you have had.

Different college have different fields in which they have better lecturers that is always a factor so it depends what area of law you go to specialise in, a rule of thumb suggests dublin as a capital city will have better lecturers (UCD,TCD) but thats spread over 2 universities.

Simply to give my two cents, stop over analysising it. Do a masters that will garuntee your employability!

McCrack

Parry_Repost wrote: »

The issue with what law school you go to really has little impact on employment. I second the afore mentioned that any nui will be well regarded over none law and private law college degrees. Some of it will come down to the factors of personnal decision in the firms.

The issue with chosing the law school for you should be for your own education. Now law firms will hire from everywhere but how quickly you advance after that is based on competency, this will be majorly influenced by the standard of education you have had.

Different college have different fields in which they have better lecturers that is always a factor so it depends what area of law you go to specialise in, a rule of thumb suggests dublin as a capital city will have better lecturers (UCD,TCD) but thats spread over 2 universities.

Simply to give my two cents, stop over analysising it. Do a masters that will garuntee your employability!

They are 10 a penny. Experience working in practice is the key to securing an apprenticeship. You are more marketable due to having practical experience and you make contacts which you can use to open doors for you. Academics doesn't prepare anybody for the profession. The job is a skill learnt from practice not from a text book.

dienbienphu

Miss Lala wrote: »

Agree with this, your academics are one of many factors that will be considered and are not the only things that firms will look at. I went to NUIG (which according to an earlier post is near the bottom of the list) and when we graduated quite a few of of my classmates had training contracts with big firms.

Later on in your career, the college you went to and the degree you did aren't really a factor at all.

As for the original question - BCL and LLB are basically the same, I can't see how one would be preferred over the other.

NUI Maynooth LLB (4 years):

Year 1
Tort Law 1
Contract Law 1
Legal Writing and
Advocacy (2 semesters)
Moot Court -1
Tort Law 2
Contract Law 2
Criminal Law 1
Moot Court -2
Year 2
Constitutional Law 1
Administrative Law
European Law 1
Criminal Law 2
European Law 2
Constitutional Law 2
Evidence Law
Year 3
Equity and Trusts
Land Law 1
Jurisprudence
Land Law 2
Company Law 1
Intellectual Property Law
Year 4
Company Law 2
Tax Law
International Law
Alternative Dispute
Resolution
Banking and Financial
Law
Commercial Litigation
Dissertation
NUI Maynooth BCL (3 years in conjunction with another subject):

Year 1
Contract Law 1
Contract Law 2
Constitutional Law 1
Constitutional Law 2
Administrative Law
Year 2
Law of Torts 1
Law of European Union 1
Criminal Law 1
Law of Evidence 1
Law of Torts 2
Law of European Union 2
Criminal Law 2
Law of Evidence 2
Year 3
Equity and Law of Trusts 1
Land Law 1
Company Law
Equity and Law of Trusts 2
Land Law 2
Jurisprudence

buyer95

As a student heading into 6th year, I am interested in the previous assertion that in U.L is the proverbial " bottom of the barrel " when it comes to law schools in this country. This interest me primarily because, recently I have been thinking that I would like to do the Law Plus( http://www3.ul.ie/courses/LawPlus.php) degree in U.L, which is the basic law degree, with another module(ie History). Law is where my interest lies, but I also have a love of History.

But this thread has made me rethink. Another of the options I have been considering is the law degree in U.C.C(http://www.ucc.ie/en/study/undergrad/what/businesslaw/law/) which according to this is a better degree? Another option is Law Clinical,( http://www.ucc.ie/en/study/undergrad/what/businesslaw/law-clinical/ ), which again is U.C.C.

I would just like peoples thoughts on this conundrum, and also, if anyone has completed, or is in the process of completing these degrees, their opinion of them.

Much appreciated

Procrastastudy

6th year using the word conundrum off to Trinity with you you young Scallywag!

Actually the nicest students of the lot Trinners imo!

We've a few refugees for UL in GCD at the moment none from UCC but maybe they end up in GCC. My advice is do what you think is going to interest you the most. The worst that's going to happen is you'll end up unemployed which is whats going to happen if you do a law degree anyway.

Also don't get caught up in any Law School snobbery. It may effect you if you're looking to become a solicitor but there are people at the bar who have graduated from GCD and I'd hazard a guess there's even the odd one from DBS. There are some excellent lecturers at UL (and some crap ones I'm sure). You have to give them Kudos for having their own mock court room!

Also get yourself on the debating team if you aren't already!

XxMCRxBabyxX

buyer95 wrote: »

As a student heading into 6th year, I am interested in the previous assertion that in U.L is the proverbial " bottom of the barrel " when it comes to law schools in this country. This interest me primarily because, recently I have been thinking that I would like to do the Law Plus( http://www3.ul.ie/courses/LawPlus.php) degree in U.L, which is the basic law degree, with another module(ie History). Law is where my interest lies, but I also have a love of History.

But this thread has made me rethink. Another of the options I have been considering is the law degree in U.C.C(http://www.ucc.ie/en/study/undergrad/what/businesslaw/law/) which according to this is a better degree? Another option is Law Clinical,( http://www.ucc.ie/en/study/undergrad/what/businesslaw/law-clinical/ ), which again is U.C.C.

I would just like peoples thoughts on this conundrum, and also, if anyone has completed, or is in the process of completing these degrees, their opinion of them.

Much appreciated

Just as an FYI you can do Law and History (thorough Law and Arts (BCL) (MH115) or Arts (MH101)) in Maynooth and you can get the opportunity to do a year long work work placement in some fairly highly ranked places which will combine both your interest in history and work placement with your degree. This is what I am doing ATM btw and have just finished my placement year in a big 5 firm.

I wouldn't worry about how a school is ranked too much if you can get yourself a work placement. That will take you much further than rankings will.

buyer95

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

6th year using the word conundrum off to Trinity with you you young Scallywag!

Actually the nicest students of the lot Trinners imo!

We've a few refugees for UL in GCD at the moment none from UCC but maybe they end up in GCC. My advice is do what you think is going to interest you the most. The worst that's going to happen is you'll end up unemployed which is whats going to happen if you do a law degree anyway.

Thanks for that encouraging statement, really makes me want to give the Law thing a go!

The way I look at is, the law degree in U.L is 4 years, then a year in Blackhalls or Kings Inn, and who is to say what the economy will be like then. I'm going to pursue my interest , regardless, and then reaccess, a Law degree is not a degree like primary school teaching, where, you have no other options...

Yes I am aware that there is a long list of unemployed law graduates, but the other courses I am considering are much the same story,( Primary School Teaching, an arts degree with a view to teaching something like English and History...)