Security for state visit OTT?

Lapin

Having read the article below in this morning's Irish Times, I now feel that the security arrangements proposed for the royal visit are unnecessarily cautious and way over the top.

I was in London three weeks ago during the royal wedding and despite the presence of politicians and royals from all over the world, none of the streets were closed to pedestrians on the big day.

I'm aware that it was a different place and occasion, but it must have been a logistical nightmare for the security forces nonetheless. And despite a large police presence the atmosphere around Westminster was relaxed and jovial.

The arrangements for Dublin next week seem paranoid in comparison.

That link above doesn't seem to work. Here it is again http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/0514/1224296946132.html

Zambia

Mate if anything happened to her Majesty during that visit it would not look well. It just takes one crackpot.

Marsden

Zambia wrote: »

Mate if anything happened to her Majesty during that visit it would not look well.

Definitely wouldn't go well for her.

Lapin

Zambia wrote: »

Mate if anything happened to her Majesty during that visit it would not look well. It just takes one crackpot.

To me, that is like saying we should never leave the house in the morning in case something terrible happens to us on the way to work.

Zambia

Lapin wrote: »

To me, that is like saying we should never leave the house in the morning in case something terrible happens to us on the way to work.

Yeah thats the same :rolleyes:

Whinge whinge whinge ...seriously in relation to this visit that's all I'm hearing.

Lapin

Oi Zambia, I'm not whinging mate.

And if you can't come up with something better than that, then bugger off and read some threads in AH or something.

I'm only expressing an opinion on boards like thousands of others.

I welcome the Queen's visit here and look forward to the visit of President Obama the following week.

I'm only pointing out my feelings on the security arrangements in comparison to what I experienced in London last month. That is non whinging.

Get over yourself.

Irish Fire

Lapin wrote: »

Oi Zambia, I'm not whinging mate.

And if you can't come up with something better than that, then bugger off and read some threads in AH or something.

I'm only expressing an opinion on boards like thousands of others.

I welcome the Queen's visit here and look forward to the visit of President Obama the following week.

I'm only pointing out my feelings on the security arrangements in comparison to what I experienced in London last month. That is non whinging.

Get over yourself.

+1

These visits can only bring good to the country, we will be on a worldwide stage for the week. Look at it from the tourist point of view, HRH's "followers" are mostly older people and will look at her visit to Ireland as a good thing and hopefully come over either during or after her visit. Now look at it from OUR point of view, these "followers" are older people with a few bob in their pockets and will spend it here (unlike the students that come on a shoestring budget and spend little or nothing) now where's the "bad" in that? And maybe we'll win the Eurovision as well...... :-)) (I'm not a Jedward fan by the way)

Honestly I think it's a good thing, and I just hope that some fool dosen't have a pop at her and set us back 40 years....... Even if it's only from the point of and Irishman having to take out an Irishman to save the life of a Queen, because trust me folks if someone does have a pop that's what will happen........

And think about the set back we will have on the worldwide stage if that happens, we have enough problems as it is......

Zambia

I apologise if it sounded like I was having a go at you. The truth is most posts I see in relation are just that.

Lapin

Lapin wrote: »

I was in London three weeks ago during the royal wedding and despite the presence of politicians and royals from all over the world, none of the streets were closed to pedestrians on the big day.

Most of the politicians at the wedding would have been commonwealth countries who accept the Queen as their monarch. They haven't been at war for decades. They don't have active criminals trying to blow up police and army personnel. Do you think whats happening here is ott now?

goldie fish

People need to accept(and probably do, but won't admit it) that this level of security is the same for any visiting world leader. The difference here being there are numerous assholes who have made actual threats to the visit of the 85 year old grandmother and her 90 year old husband. You won't have to go far on boards.ie to find them.

It is the activities of these groups, and their rabble rousing hangers on that cause the disruption, and always have. This sort of disruptive activity activity is the reason the British army patrolled the streets of NI. When the activity stopped, the BA went back to barracks. These groups want to cause trouble that would bring the troops back on the streets. It is the reason that in 1980 most of the Irish army spent their time on the border between the North and South, and in 2000 none of them did.

Don't forget that the Uncle of her ninety year old husband, then in his 80s, was killed by this type of organisation, while he was fishing in a small boat in sligo.

ironclaw

All it takes as has been said is one crack pot with a misaligned ideal. Most people don't care about the visit and I say that in the whole England V Ireland thing. Get over it, you can't cry over something forever. The rest of the country has pretty swiftly moved on. Mourne the loss's on both sides and just work towards a greater, more practical, good.

I suppose the protection is OTT but it is the equivalent of Obama walking down the main street in Baghdad with some of the crack pots we have here.

MagicSean

I think it will be great if we can pull off a massive security operation like this with no major incident. When the EU leaders were over a while back the Gardaí did us proud when handling the protestors from all over the world. Made is look great internationally. If we can do the same this time it will be great for us too and might encourage future visits, which should benefit the country in international trade and tourism.

Newbie_2009

The security is not OTT because if anything happens to her the economic cost to this country would be phenomenal. Irish goods and service would probably be boycotted en-masse in the UK. The massively drawn out itinerary on the other hand is OTT. It makes the whole thing unnecessarily complicated for little extra benefit. Quick in quick out and a few well staged pics would have been just the job.

Esel

Newbie_2009 wrote: »

Quick in quick out and a few well staged pics would have been just the job.

How would that have looked? It's all about the optics. Even Jarry is playing ball.

Newbie_2009

Esel wrote: »

How would that have looked? It's all about the optics. Even Jarry is playing ball.

playing ball... ah now its probably an insurance policy against the backlash if things go pear shaped

Kinda off topic (though it does fit in with the thread) but does anyone here know how the Gardaì will be on the streets for this?

I enjoy photographing their stuff, so i was just wondering if anyone knows what'll be on the streets? Will there be Garda patrol and RSU vehicles hanging around the place? I heard we're getting a lend of some PSNI Water cannons; will these be on the streets or parked up to be freely photographed?


From what I'm lead to believe, the only moving traffic in the city centre will be public service and emergency vehicles (taxis, buses, ambulance, etc.) is this true? If so, seems like an ideal few days for some nice photography of El Garda gear.

DB10

goldie fish wrote: »

People need to accept(and probably do, but won't admit it) that this level of security is the same for any visiting world leader. The difference here being there are numerous assholes who have made actual threats to the visit of the 85 year old grandmother and her 90 year old husband. You won't have to go far on boards.ie to find them.

It is the activities of these groups, and their rabble rousing hangers on that cause the disruption, and always have. This sort of disruptive activity activity is the reason the British army patrolled the streets of NI. When the activity stopped, the BA went back to barracks. These groups want to cause trouble that would bring the troops back on the streets. It is the reason that in 1980 most of the Irish army spent their time on the border between the North and South, and in 2000 none of them did.

Don't forget that the Uncle of her ninety year old husband, then in his 80s, was killed by this type of organisation, while he was fishing in a small boat in sligo.

And they're all innocent nice people are they....:rolleyes:

Shooting children in the head and getting away without charge. Getting gold stars for "bravery" by Lizzie herself for Bloody Sunday.

Two sides to every story.

sdanseo

Deleted User wrote: »

Kinda off topic (though it does fit in with the thread) but does anyone here know how the Gardaì will be on the streets for this?

I enjoy photographing their stuff, so i was just wondering if anyone knows what'll be on the streets? Will there be Garda patrol and RSU vehicles hanging around the place? I heard we're getting a lend of some PSNI Water cannons; will these be on the streets or parked up to be freely photographed?


From what I'm lead to believe, the only moving traffic in the city centre will be public service and emergency vehicles (taxis, buses, ambulance, etc.) is this true? If so, seems like an ideal few days for some nice photography of El Garda gear.

My impression is there will be rolling roadblacks, so no particular streets will be closed off for a huge period of time. Imagine a scaled up version of a Garda Escort, with bikes blocking junctions etc.

The more literal meaning of Rolling roadblocks is a phrase more commonly used for another tactic - slowing traffic on Motorways down - probably haven't been seen here much as we haven't seen motorways. I was held up by one last year near the port tunnel - basically marked Garda vehicle(s) slow to a crawl in front of mono-directional traffic like on a motorway or dual carriageway and hold them up long enough to clear a decent gap, the escort convoy drives down the resulting 2/3 mile gap in traffic and then the Garda vehicles simply follow it off the motorway and normal service resumes with the vehicles behind simply speeding up again.

For escrots off the motorway, on normal streets (or "surface streets" as the yanks would call 'em) full closures will be taking place (again, from my interpretations only of what's been made public) but only for a few minutes at any given location. They clear a stretch, convoy passes, stretch opens. It's VIP transport, not a parade.

goldie fish

DB10 wrote: »

And they're all innocent nice people are they....:rolleyes:

Shooting children in the head and getting away without charge. Getting gold stars for "bravery" by Lizzie herself for Bloody Sunday.

Two sides to every story.

Two sides indeed.
Like the murder of a mother of nine.. hiding her body, so the family can't give it a decent burial...
Or the murder of a three year old and twelve year old boy...out on a shopping trip,

goldie fish

Deleted User wrote: »

Kinda off topic (though it does fit in with the thread) but does anyone here know how the Gardaì will be on the streets for this?

I enjoy photographing their stuff, so i was just wondering if anyone knows what'll be on the streets? Will there be Garda patrol and RSU vehicles hanging around the place? I heard we're getting a lend of some PSNI Water cannons; will these be on the streets or parked up to be freely photographed?


From what I'm lead to believe, the only moving traffic in the city centre will be public service and emergency vehicles (taxis, buses, ambulance, etc.) is this true? If so, seems like an ideal few days for some nice photography of El Garda gear.

I would suggest not photographing those policing, or their vehicles, on this occasion, unless you have the permission of those operating them.
Unless you have a long lens.

goldie fish

goldie fish wrote: »

I would suggest not photographing those policing, or their vehicles, on this occasion, unless you have the permission of those operating them.
Unless you have a long lens.

I usually do ask first, but I doubt they'd care, would they? I imagine there'll be more photographers than Gardaì in the City this week.

Shield

goldie fish wrote: »

Two sides indeed.
Like the murder of a mother of nine.. hiding her body, so the family can't give it a decent burial...
Or the murder of a three year old and twelve year old boy...out on a shopping trip,

DB10 wrote: »

And they're all innocent nice people are they....:rolleyes:

Shooting children in the head and getting away without charge. Getting gold stars for "bravery" by Lizzie herself for Bloody Sunday.

Two sides to every story.

I want the politics kept off this forum. Save it for the Politics forum. No Politics in here

Terrontress

goldie fish wrote: »

I would suggest not photographing those policing, or their vehicles, on this occasion, unless you have the permission of those operating them.
Unless you have a long lens.

On what basis do you make that suggestion?

johnnyskeleton

It will be interesting to see the effect of it on the criminal justice system. In Dublin anyway, it's gonna cause all sorts of trouble in the courts with trials and such.

goldie fish

Terrontress wrote: »

On what basis do you make that suggestion?

My own experience. We never like people taking photos of us at work. You never know where the photos will end up.

goldie fish

goldie fish wrote: »

My own experience. We never like people taking photos of us at work. You never know where the photos will end up.

If memory serves me right, you're a Garda? Are ye guys not in front of cameras every day of the week anyway?

Not trying to be smart or anything, but as someone interested in the world of the emergency services (and photography), I've noticed that the uniform (and the Fire Service) is like a magnet for people taking photos.

Do Gardaì in general really care, at all? I mean, obviously no one wants a camera shoved in their face when they're trying to eat their lunch in the patrol car, or they're after falling over or anything potentially embarrassing, but in the course of regular duty, walking/driving around/scene of an accident, etc. do ye find other Gardaì care at all?

Shield

FYI: I think goldie fish claims to be an ex-Garda. I haven't ever seen him claim he's a serving member.

goldie fish

psni wrote: »

FYI: I think goldie fish claims to be an ex-Garda. I haven't ever seen him claim he's a serving member.

Thanks PSNI.

I am an ex member.

It would be easy to verify my "claim".

Esel

goldie fish wrote: »

Thanks PSNI.

I am an ex member.

It would be easy to verify my "claim".

If you are an ex-member, then it is misleading for you to state this:

goldie fish wrote: »

We never like people taking photos of us at work.

as it implies you are a serving member.

goldie fish

Esel wrote: »

If you are an ex-member, then it is misleading for you to state this:as it implies you are a serving member.

WHere do you get your pitchforks?
I'm quite tired of this witch hunt.

Zambia

Cant say I blame you.

Shield

Mod post: Can I just point out that, in the interest of fairness, a lot of the retired ex-RUC guys who 'took Patten' are now back in the PSNI organisation in some way either as security guards on the gate, as trainers, as leadership advisors, and so on.

These guys would still see themselves as being part of the organisation, and would still refer to themselves as one of the guys, and would expect to be referred to as one of the guys by their their now "former" colleagues!

It is entirely possible that goldie fish fits into the above category as, if you think about it, what other jobs can ex-members perform other than jobs they would have had prior experience performing during the course of their service?

@goldish fish - For all you know, I'm not in the PSNI. As far as you're concerned, to use familiar terminology, it's just a claim until you've had it verified by someone you trust on here. You should know by now that I (just like you may have done) am using terminology that I use every day in work, and I would hope that you have not been offended by such standard terminology?

@Esel - Fair point, but in the job, just as with any job, we get so used to using certain terminology that I imagine it can be very difficult to simply stop when it comes your time to retire/move on. I don't think goldie fish intentionally misled us because he has stated many times on the forum that he is no longer a Garda. He doesn't strike me as someone who'd forget such a simple part of his backstory!

I think it's fair to say that I've addressed everything, hopefully to everyone's satisfaction, so can we please get this back on topic before Lizzy is back home still deciding whether she likes Guinness or not?

Thanks guys.

Zambia

psni wrote: »

so can we please get this back on topic before Lizzy is back home still deciding whether she likes Guinness or not?

Is she going to the Guinness Factory ??? A photo of HRH drinking a pint of the black stuff would be cool.

Hopefully if all goes well then the next visit would not require such security.

Shield

Zambia wrote: »

Is she going to the Guinness Factory ??? A photo of HRH drinking a pint of the black stuff would be cool.

I'd like to think of her elegantly sipping on a pint through a straw instead of horsing it down, pint after pint, and then discovering the rather pressing need to use one's outhouse, where one is required to bring one's own toilet roll! :eek:

Lapin

Getting back to my original point, I have some friends (British and Irish) who were looking forward to a trip to Dublin in the hope of catching a glimpse of the Queen.

They have now cancelled their day out as the chances of them doing so now appear to be nil. The whole visit now lacks a sense of occasion and appears very detached from from the very people the visit is supposed to impress.

I'm disappointed for them and cannot help feeling the security arrangements could not be handled more discreetly. Denying the public any chance to see the guest invited to our shores on their behalf is akin to treating them all as potential assassins.

I cannot think of any precedent for such a draconian action during any other state visit.

Geansai

To be fair, the Queen of England is visiting a country which has an active terrorist group who list her amongst their targets, and who have on occassion killed members of her family.

For the vast majority of people on this Island, times have changed, but for some they have not.

It is with this in mind that extra security is most necessary. Yes, it can appear extreme, but given the circumstances and tensions which may be heightened, it is, unfortunately, necessary.

source

psni wrote: »

Mod post: Can I just point out that, in the interest of fairness, a lot of the retired ex-RUC guys who 'took Patten' are now back in the PSNI organisation in some way either as security guards on the gate, as trainers, as leadership advisors, and so on.

These guys would still see themselves as being part of the organisation, and would still refer to themselves as one of the guys, and would expect to be referred to as one of the guys by their their now "former" colleagues!

It is entirely possible that goldie fish fits into the above category as, if you think about it, what other jobs can ex-members perform other than jobs they would have had prior experience performing during the course of their service?

@goldish fish - For all you know, I'm not in the PSNI. As far as you're concerned, to use familiar terminology, it's just a claim until you've had it verified by someone you trust on here. You should know by now that I (just like you may have done) am using terminology that I use every day in work, and I would hope that you have not been offended by such standard terminology?

@Esel - Fair point, but in the job, just as with any job, we get so used to using certain terminology that I imagine it can be very difficult to simply stop when it comes your time to retire/move on. I don't think goldie fish intentionally misled us because he has stated many times on the forum that he is no longer a Garda. He doesn't strike me as someone who'd forget such a simple part of his backstory!

I think it's fair to say that I've addressed everything, hopefully to everyone's satisfaction, so can we please get this back on topic before Lizzy is back home still deciding whether she likes Guinness or not?

Thanks guys.

Just to put this to bed for once and for all. I go by the name ackack on another site that Goldie fish frequents, if it is the same person, then he is indeed a former member of AGS who served in the same station as I now do, and he is also current serving member of the RDF.

OS119

Lapin wrote: »

Getting back to my original point, I have some friends (British and Irish) who were looking forward to a trip to Dublin in the hope of catching a glimpse of the Queen.

They have now cancelled their day out as the chances of them doing so now appear to be nil. The whole visit now lacks a sense of occasion and appears very detached from from the very people the visit is supposed to impress.

I'm disappointed for them and cannot help feeling the security arrangements could not be handled more discreetly. Denying the public any chance to see the guest invited to our shores on their behalf is akin to treating them all as potential assassins.

I cannot think of any precedent for such a draconian action during any other state visit.

i think the problem, in addition to the valid points made above, is that this is a first, that it comes on the back of political and economic upheaval in Ireland, and that many would suggest that the very specific timing could be better.

there is obviously no real precedent for this, nothing to base assumptions on, no previous experience that allows people to say 'well, last time she was here...' - so people who'se job is to be hugely conservative when it comes to risk analysis have unsurprisingly opted for the 'no risk' option.

it is, i would imagine, very likely that in a second visit there would be vastly less overt security and disruption - there will be experience to draw on and hindsight to learn lessons from. there's also, as ever, a political issue - that the Irish government knows how damaging it would be for the countrys image if there were to be any serious attempt on the Queens life while she is a guest in Ireland - so its quite possible that whatever technically correct measures the security authorities placed on the Ministers desk for approval, the Minister just said 'double it'.

source

Lapin wrote: »

Getting back to my original point, I have some friends (British and Irish) who were looking forward to a trip to Dublin in the hope of catching a glimpse of the Queen.

They have now cancelled their day out as the chances of them doing so now appear to be nil. The whole visit now lacks a sense of occasion and appears very detached from from the very people the visit is supposed to impress.

I'm disappointed for them and cannot help feeling the security arrangements could not be handled more discreetly. Denying the public any chance to see the guest invited to our shores on their behalf is akin to treating them all as potential assassins.

I cannot think of any precedent for such a draconian action during any other state visit.

The problem is the very viable threat to the queen from the idiots up North. Personally I hope that this visit goes off without issue, as anything that goes wrong will be seen on the world stage and will have massive ecenomic effects on Ireland in terms of lowering the numbers coming here already and adversly affecting potential tourism from the UK.

Lets face it, if this goes off without a hitch there's approx. 61 Million people within a few hours travelling time who will see that Ireland is not a dangerous place and will be more willing to travel here and spend their hard earned cash.

If it goes to pot on the other hand, then there'll be 61 million people who will want nothing to do with us. The security measures are drastic and unfortunate. The problem is that because of the idiots up north who think it's still the early 1900's will try somthing, it is necessary.

OS119

interesting to note that today (monday) the Met have closed the Mall and conducted a controlled explosion because of a coded bomb warning, apparently from a DR group.

the BBC's Frank Gardiner says that this is the first coded bomb warning from DR's in mainland Britain for years.

everyone knows that it is a long established tactic of such groups to cause chaos by phoning in coded warning that don't turn out to be real - terrorism for 30p - but the recent increase in the capability of the DR's indicates that they probably can produce the goods. if they have the technical ability to do it in London then they certainly have the ability to do it in Dublin.

d3exile

Lapin wrote: »

Getting back to my original point, I have some friends (British and Irish) who were looking forward to a trip to Dublin in the hope of catching a glimpse of the Queen.

They have now cancelled their day out as the chances of them doing so now appear to be nil. The whole visit now lacks a sense of occasion and appears very detached from from the very people the visit is supposed to impress.

I'm disappointed for them and cannot help feeling the security arrangements could not be handled more discreetly. Denying the public any chance to see the guest invited to our shores on their behalf is akin to treating them all as potential assassins.

I cannot think of any precedent for such a draconian action during any other state visit.

This isn't just any state visit though- 8,000 Gardai are being pulled from their stations nationwide to be deployed, protecting a handful of people from one minority of people who can't move on with their lives!

I don't think arrangements are OTT but if they are it's not our security forces to blame it's the gob****es with balaclavas and Celtic jerseys...

angelfire9

d3exile wrote: »

This isn't just any state visit though- 8,000 Gardai are being pulled from their stations nationwide to be deployed, protecting a handful of people from one minority of people who can't move on with their lives!

I don't think arrangements are OTT but if they are it's not our security forces to blame it's the gob****es with balaclavas and Celtic jerseys...

+1

One of those gob****es was on Clare FM this morning and stated that if he had the fire power he'd take a shot at Her Majesty in a heart beat :eek:

Same muppet stated that Ronan Kerr deserved to die as a member of the "crown forces" :mad:

(I'll be making a complaint to the Broadcasting commission as Clare FM should not be broadcasting political statements from terrorists)

Zambia

angelfire9 wrote: »

(I'll be making a complaint to the Broadcasting commission as Clare FM should not be broadcasting political statements from terrorists)

Or just the general rantings of Nuphy's

discus

I'm a second verifier for Goldie Fish. Same dude from another forum of which, he is well known!

Esel

I would just like to point out that I never questioned goldie fish's bona fides.

psni: Sorry for returning to this after your mod post, but as it has been resurrected, I thought it would be OK to post this clarification.

source

Bomb scare on a bus in Maynooth tonight. No links as yet, but it's all over twitter with pics of Army and Gardai at scene.

http://twitpic.com/4yn4z6

http://yfrog.com/hsiwnknj

EDIT: http://www.tv3.ie/article.php?article_id=58933&locID=1.2&pagename=news

Zambia

Not to mention its on the evening news here.

angelfire9

I have a BAD BAD feeling about this visit and will be glad when its all over
Am doubly glad my OH's unit isn't gone to Dublin for the duration as I reckon riots are the minimum we can expect

HOPEFULLY the next 4 days will pass without death on the streets either in Dublin, Kildare, Cashel or Cork

It would be a disaster for the country and the Gardai would be blamed if anything does go wrong though god knows they've done their best to prevent an incident, the actions of the loony paramilitary fringe probably can't be prevented though, hampered yes, but prevented probably not
Its a pity they can't turn their determination to some good use!

I really hope I'm wrong.....

Contra Proferentem

Eirigi are on O'Connell Street pushing the bounds of peaceful protest. I hope they get a good kicking if they break the law.

Since I've been so vocal in support of the right to peaceful protest, it has to work both ways.

source

Contra Proferentem wrote: »

Eirigi are on O'Connell Street pushing the bounds of peaceful protest. I hope they get a good kicking if they break the law.

Since I've been so vocal in support of the right to peaceful protest, it has to work both ways.

Only problem is Eirigi usually don't know where the bounds of peaceful protest end and riots begin.

Edit: as predicted http://www.demotix.com/news/693442/violence-breaks-out-dublin-english-queens-visit-ireland Shame the pictures don't match up with the narrative......(narrative:gardai try to remove sit down protest; Pictures: scumbags pushing against barriers.)

Argh. Wish I went up now

Anyone know if there's any one planning any protesting or moaning for tomorrow? Will charge the camera batteries.