Are you ashamed of the State's behaviour in the 40's, 50's. 60's & 70's?

CommuterIE

The Catholic schools... can be any strain... the CBS's, The Magdeline Schools etc... do you blame the State for the abuses or the Institutions (for hiding it in a lot of cases)... I blame the State tbh, it is ultimatley their responsibility... what happened to the victims was gross beyond believe and many living today have very deep scars that they will never overcome.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Its defo you fault!

Daemos

Why the fcuk should I feel ashamed for something that happened 50 years before I was born?

ArtSmart

em, i think serious threads are banned for the next hours or so.


so my funny bone tells me (course - it's drunk. again)

CreepingDeath

We didn't start the fire... it was always burning since the world's been turning.

ElaElaElano

Yes, absolutely. The negligence of the state over those years to overlook abuse is fcuking disgusting, and all in the name of a so-called moral institution.

Edit: posted that before the poll came up. If the question is who is to blame- then it's both in equal measure. But the role of the state is to serve and protect its people but what it did was serve and protect the vile behaviour of the church.

Saila

is this a "when did you stop beating your wife" type question

easyeason3

I blame any individual in a position to change things or voice concerns that stayed quiet.
State or church. It makes no difference. Wrong is wrong regardless of who you are.

Dudess

No, I blame the religious orders first and foremost, then the state. The two were obviously inextricably linked, but the church had the final say - it's frightening how much power the church had in Ireland up to... even the early 90s.

But as for being ashamed myself because of being born here in 1978... er... no?

rockmongrel

Both of course! They were each implicit, each equally responsible and guilty.

ArtSmart

Saila wrote: »

is this a "when did you stop beating your wife" type question

when she died of course.

Dudess

easyeason3 wrote: »

I blame any individual in a position to change things or voice concerns that stayed quiet.

Important part bolded though - there is a terrible scapegoating culture in Ireland.

HavingCrack

:mad: I hate these threads, how can I feel ashamed (or proud) of something that happened before I was even born. Unless I have a direct impact upon a particular issue, feeling shame or pride in it happening is just ridiculous.

Senna

......80's, 90's and 00's as well. There's plenty of abuse still going on. 12 priests in the 270 cases reported last year are still in ministry (although abuse may not be resent)

DundalkDuffman

Why stop at the 70's?

themadchef

All we can do is try to make it better for our kids. We cant turn back the clock.

Shame is what got us inot alot of trouble in the first place is it not?

steddyeddy

CommuterIE wrote: »

The Catholic schools... can be any strain... the CBS's, The Magdeline Schools etc... do you blame the State for the abuses or the Institutions (for hiding it in a lot of cases)... I blame the State tbh, it is ultimatley their responsibility... what happened to the victims was gross beyond believe and many living today have very deep scars that they will never overcome.

Yes I am indeed ashamed to live in a country were this was allowed. Im ashamed that members of our defense force enabled children to be abused and the fact that it took so long to get recognition for these people!

CommuterIE

Daemos wrote: »

Why the fcuk should I feel ashamed for something that happened 50 years before I was born?

So you'ld apply your view to the Catholic Church also I assume... since it happened "50 years ago" which is utter bull**** in itself... I am ashamed at the State in the past, simply because I love this country and I look back in horror at was ALLOWED to happen... that was never what this country ever should've been!

Pauleta

The people of Ireland helped the cover up and denial. Its our parents, grandparents, great grandparents and so on's fault. Remember this all didnt just happen this century. Its been happening for centuries. Catholics are to blame.

easyeason3

Dudess wrote: »

Important part bolded though - there is a terrible scapegoating culture in Ireland.

Sorry now but scapegoating physical, mental, sexual & emotional abuse is not scapegoating in my book. It's bullying at it's worst. It is basically breaking a person down to the worst that a person can make them in order to satisfy a persons own needs or just not be brave enough to open the can of worms.

Plenty of people knew what went on.

It is 50/ 50.

Dudess

CommuterIE wrote: »

So you'ld apply your view to the Catholic Church also I asume... since it happened "50 years ago" which is utter bull**** in itself... I am ashamed at the State in the past, simply because I love this country and I look back in horror at was ALLOWED to happen... that was never what this country ever should've been!

That's your take - other people find it illogical to hold oneself accountable for something in which they had absolutely no role. Other people also aren't particularly swayed either way when it comes to loving or hating the country in which they were born.

Dudess

easyeason3 wrote: »

Sorry now but scapegoating physical, mental, sexual & emotional abuse is not scapegoating in my book.

That doesn't even make sense. People are scapegoated - I didn't say anything about abuse being scapegoated. I'm referring to blame being thrown at the wrong people, who in hindsight might have been able to do something - e.g. an employee in an industrial school. It's very easy to point fingers with hindsight though.

CommuterIE

Dudess wrote: »

That's your take - other people find it illogical to hold oneself accountable for something in which they had absolutely no role. Other people also aren't particularly swayed either way when it comes to loving or hating the country in which they were born.

Hang on a second, no one thinks for one second they are accountable and I certainly don't... however, this country was founded on principles that were broken non-stop and destroyed the lives of tens of thousands of people... This is what makes me ashamed of those years... that the country I love sank so low!

My name is URL

Which came first...

HavingCrack

CommuterIE wrote: »

So you'ld apply your view to the Catholic Church also I assume... since it happened "50 years ago" which is utter bull**** in itself... I am ashamed at the State in the past, simply because I love this country and I look back in horror at was ALLOWED to happen... that was never what this country ever should've been!

I actually would hold a similar view to this. If I happened to be a Catholic I suppose I might feel ashamed (but it's by no means a given) but since I am not, feeling ashamed of something that I had no impact upon and happened before I was alive seems absolutely absurd. I actually think the mentality of 'collective guilt' is an extremely dangerous road to start travelling down.

HavingCrack

CommuterIE wrote: »

Hang on a second, no one thinks for one second they are accountable and I certainly don't... however, this country was founded on principles that were broken non-stop and destroyed the lives of tens of thousands of people... This is what makes me ashamed of those years... that the country I love sank so low!

Ah, ok that was the impression I got from the Op, apologies.

Dudess

Pauleta wrote: »

The people of Ireland helped the cover up and denial. Its our parents, grandparents, great grandparents and so on's fault.

I presume you've cut ties with the older generations of your family in disgust at their complicitness?

Catholics are to blame.

Narrow that down a tad... Or are you just engaging in your usual attention-seeking sh1t?

KeithAFC

The state is what i went for.

steddyeddy

I have to correct my post not having any influence on what happened in the past im not ashamed of it but I would be if I didnt learn anything from the the revelations and change my views of certain institutions.

ScumLord

But, we're the state.

My name is URL wrote: »

Which came first...

The bishop usually get's first go.

easyeason3

Dudess wrote: »

That doesn't even make sense. People are scapegoated - I didn't say anything about abuse being scapegoated. I'm referring to blame being thrown at the wrong people, who in hindsight might have been able to do something - e.g. an employee in an industrial school. It's very easy to point fingers with hindsight though.

That's a fair point. But how many people did raise concerns? And to who?
I'm guessing if anyone did it would have fallen on deaf ears.

Dudess

CommuterIE wrote: »

Hang on a second, no one thinks for one second they are accountable and I certainly don't... however, this country was founded on principles that were broken non-stop and destroyed the lives of tens of thousands of people... This is what makes me ashamed of those years... that the country I love sank so low!

Maybe it depends on your definition of "ashamed" so. For me, "ashamed" implies a certain degree of feeling responsible.

alchemist33

State and institutions are both culpable, but primarily it was the people who committed the abuse, which doesn't seem to be a poll option.

CommuterIE

KeithAFC wrote: »

The state is what i went for.

KeithAFC, get your biggoted arse out of this thread, quite frankly everyone is sick and tired of it, troll another forum

Duckworth_Luas

I naively thought that after Jedward's magnificent, decisive and overwhelming victory tonight, that AH would be free of the usual Irish self-flagellation threads. Wrong, now I'm being asked if I'm ashamed of my country because of the actions and inactions of complete strangers from before I was born.

CommuterIE

Dudess wrote: »

Maybe it depends on your definition of "ashamed" so. For me, "ashamed" implies a certain degree of feeling responsible.

Maybe I am using the wrong word... can you suggest one? I'm not ashamed but angry when I look back and it brings me down... word for that?

gigino

ScumLord wrote: »

But, we're the state.

No, Politicians and the political establishment at the time were the state, and shame on them for allowing it to happen / colluding with the r.c .church. In recent times, the state should not have agreed to pay most of the compensation, given the vast wealth accumulated by the rcc , here + in the vatican.

KeithAFC

CommuterIE wrote: »

KeithAFC, get your biggoted arse out of this thread, quite frankly everyone is sick and tired of it, troll another forum

What on earth commuter? I went for the state on the topic. I think some others did too. Its an interesting debate.

Dudess

themadchef wrote: »

All we can do is try to make it better for our kids. We cant turn back the clock.

Shame is what got us inot alot of trouble in the first place is it not?

Well said.

easyeason3 wrote: »

That's a fair point. But how many people did raise concerns? And to who?
I'm guessing if anyone did it would have fallen on deaf ears.

I know of one case where a priest wrote to the Department of Education in relation to the horrors he witnessed at Artane, which yielded nothing. I've no doubt he was far from alone.

My name is URL

KeithAFC wrote: »

The state is what i went for.

I'm shocked!, Shocked!!

well, not that shocked

CommuterIE

KeithAFC wrote: »

What on earth commuter? I went for the state on the topic. I think some others did too. Its an interesting debate.

No you didn't, you stated your choice to get a dig in...

steddyeddy

I defintaly think some people dong get enough blame for what happened.

Dudess

CommuterIE wrote: »

Maybe I am using the wrong word... can you suggest one? I'm not ashamed but angry when I look back and it brings me down... word for that?

Well as I said, it depends on how you interpret the word. That's only my interpretation of it - and maybe I'm incorrect.

gigino wrote: »

No, Politicians and the political establishment at the time were the state, and shame on them for allowing it to happen / colluding with the r.c.c..

Were politicians raping and beating children? They had a huge role to play for turning a blind eye, but it was very much secondary to that of the actual perpetrators. The church was more powerful than the state too - the state took its cue from it - so how could the less powerful of the two be more to blame?

Easier targets ALWAYS get blamed by some - so much easier I'm sure...

mike65

Your parents allowed it to happen, remember that.

gigino

CommuterIE wrote: »

KeithAFC, get your biggoted arse out of this thread, quite frankly everyone is sick and tired of it, troll another forum

he is entitled to his point of view, especially as he is relatively polite in expressing same.

Dudess

KeithAFC wrote: »

What on earth commuter? I went for the state on the topic. I think some others did too. Its an interesting debate.

Your pretend innocence doesn't fool anyone anymore - maybe it's something to do with the massive red hand in your sig. Or are you going to claim that's just a symbol and you can't see how it would be deemed inflammatory?

CommuterIE

mike65 wrote: »

Your parents allowed it to happen, remember that.

Now that is utter rubbish! My parents nor grandparents would EVER condone what happened and I'd say the majority are the same.... it was just the powers that be that allowed this ****e to happen

Dudess

mike65 wrote: »

Your parents allowed it to happen, remember that.

Clearly my 94-year-old grandmother, a devout catholic, is as bad as those who raped and tortured the children. Tomorrow I'm gonna tell her go fuk herself.

gigino

Dudess wrote: »

The church was more powerful than the state too - the state took its cue from it -

so you think it was a catholic state run by the r.c. church ?...and it was ok for the politicians to allow this ?

Dudess

gigino wrote: »

so you think it was a catholic state run by the r.c. church ?

Yup.

...and it was ok for the politicians to allow this ?

Please learn how to debate without resorting to a strawman.

Duckworth_Luas

mike65 wrote: »

Your parents allowed it to happen, remember that.

No, my parents were busy murdering Jews at Auswitch and Bergen-Belsen respectively.