The Last Bastion of Masculinity?

Buceph

I read back to page 100 in the golf forum last night (career ideas sparking after a night of regret and worry) and I only encountered one case of someone explicitly mentioning they were female.* This could be very good, or very bad for golf. And I realised as I took my daily browse to TLL that it really was the last bastion of maledom. Or at least the equality authority would have you believe. So I was wondering what you think that last typically male thing is? I don't mean something nebulous and societal like wages, parenting rights, or birth control issues. More the areas that are easy to pin down, and which in theory should be easy to correct.

My own thoughts keep drawing towards sports (and the construction industry.) I know rugby, once an extremely masculine sport, has attracted a lot of women, especially as professionalism is a modern occurence in rugby. There's been a big take-off in tag rugby, and some of the Women's sevens game is very good. The other sport I'm into, sailing, has a huge amount of women involved (I think women compete on equal terms in the Olympics) and the only real advantage men have is the ability to take a widdle off the back of the boat (a gritty reality of the sport.) And the sport I did as a kid was dominated by women, horseriding. I was in classes as the only guy, and did a stable management course run entirely by and made up entirely of women bar me and one other guy.

In other areas that have come here recently there's been computer gaming, and I think it's been fairly conclusively shown that women can be as nerdy as men.

So, what areas would you see as the "last bastion" of masculinity? I'd be interested in hearing stories of how you upset the stereotype in such an area. Or what if anything drew you to a male dominated "bastion."

*A guy made a joke about women golfers, and she challenged him to a game. He could have a five stroke head start if he wore a skirt. :pac:


Edit: My intension is for this to be a light hearted thread, so I'd appreciate if at least the first three posts went that way. There have been a few high tension threads in the last few weeks. If it doesn't come across that way, point it out to me, and I'll try and correct the op.

baby and crumble

Personally? I think golf is the last bastion of boredom.



As for the 'last bastion' of masculinity... it's a bit of an odd question. There are always going to be things that men do that women don't, for the most part.

Reminds me of the friends episode where Rachel & Ross got a male nanny.

"It's just weird. A male nanny, that's like a woman wanting to be..."

"What?"

"... King?"

Joeys response?

"A penis model"

That's about it, really.

Interesting that you say

More the areas that are easy to pin down, and which in theory should be easy to correct.

- I'm not sure genuinely different preferences should be "corrected"...

liah

The last bastion of masculinity is not cleaning up after yourself :pac:

I've lived with guys for the last few years. Filthy. FILTHY! :mad:

They don't care if dishes get washed, or floors get swept, or notice when I end up having to do either of these things because no one else will. They don't care if the cat vomited on the bathroom floor, or that all the rotting food from the bins they never take out is leaking all over the kitchen. They don't mind using mugs for ashtrays or having piles of plates stacked on their desk because they're too lazy to put them in the dishwasher (dishwasher for god's sake! it's not even like they have to clean it themselves!).

I've tried so many times to just not clean up after them to see if they do it themselves, but they don't. It's like they're dirt-blind. And every single guy I've lived with has been like this (all 8 of them), though some more extreme than others.

I'm not even a clean freak by any stretch of the imagination, either - boys are just icky


*I don't actually think all men are disgusting, but 8/8 odds have me wondering.. :pac:

Count Duckula

The issue is surely to give women the opportunity to play golf if they want, not make them so that the numbers are even.

If more men than women want to play golf because women have the common sense not to waste entire days thwacking tiny white balls with metal sticks, then there will always be a gender "imbalance" in the sport. But as long as a woman who does want to play can do so without a problem, then I don't see an issue.

Silverfish

Racing pigeons. Only ever known men who keep pigeons. (With respectful apologies to any female racing pigeon owners)

Silverfish

liah wrote: »

The last bastion of masculinity is not cleaning up after yourself :pac:

I've lived with guys for the last few years. Filthy. FILTHY! :mad:

They don't care if dishes get washed, or floors get swept, or notice when I end up having to do either of these things because no one else will. They don't care if the cat vomited on the bathroom floor, or that all the rotting food from the bins they never take out is leaking all over the kitchen. They don't mind using mugs for ashtrays or having piles of plates stacked on their desk because they're too lazy to put them in the dishwasher (dishwasher for god's sake! it's not even like they have to clean it themselves!).

I've tried so many times to just not clean up after them to see if they do it themselves, but they don't. It's like they're dirt-blind. And every single guy I've lived with has been like this (all 8 of them), though some more extreme than others.

I'm not even a clean freak by any stretch of the imagination, either - boys are just icky


*I don't actually think all men are disgusting, but 8/8 odds have me wondering.. :pac:

I know you're generalising there (careful!) but to be fair, my boyfriend would have a conniption over these, he regularly makes 'tsk!' noises at me if I drop or spill stuff.
He's away at the moment so teacup rings everywhere and no washing up done yet! :pac:

Buceph

bluewolf wrote: »

Interesting that you say

- I'm not sure genuinely different preferences should be "corrected"...

I was thinking along the sports lines when I thought of the thread (mainly golf, but also soccer/rugby.)

I think women in general can be just as much of a fanatic as a man can, I know my mother watches far more soccer than my dad (who hates it.) And she'll often be texting with my brother to share her analysis. But for soccer in England there were very low attendences by female fans. They decided this was down to the hooliganism in specific, and the general boisterous attitude in general. There were loads of stories of fathers bringing their daughters to matches right up to the sixties. But when the lad/lout behaviour snuck in women stopped going. So the English clubs have made a determined effort to stamp out hooliganism (which was blatantly wrong) and to make it a more friendly affair for everyone, so entire families could come along. Whether this is a business strategy or an ethical decision is irrelevant (for this thread I think anyway.) The terraces were seen as a bastion of maledom, but history shows that's wrong, and they've tried to address the recent trend that ran to the contrary. There was no innate difference in the substantial aspect, but a few differences in the ancilliary aspects.

Morag

Do we have any female judges?
How many have we had?

liah

Silverfish wrote: »

I know you're generalising there (careful!) but to be fair, my boyfriend would have a conniption over these, he regularly makes 'tsk!' noises at me if I drop or spill stuff.
He's away at the moment so teacup rings everywhere and no washing up done yet! :pac:

Ah, I see - all the ones who can clean up for themselves are spoken for already

You lucky, lucky girl.

Stheno

Sharrow wrote: »

Do we have any female judges?
How many have we had?

16 female judges across the courts at the moment

Bottle_of_Smoke

There's nothing at all I can think of that would be 100% male unless it requires a penis.

I thought golf was a really big thing amongst rich ladies? Though maybe they're underrepresented on boards :P

liah wrote:

The last bastion of masculinity is not cleaning up after yourself

I've lived with guys for the last few years. Filthy. FILTHY!

They don't care if dishes get washed, or floors get swept, or notice when I end up having to do either of these things because no one else will. They don't care if the cat vomited on the bathroom floor, or that all the rotting food from the bins they never take out is leaking all over the kitchen. They don't mind using mugs for ashtrays or having piles of plates stacked on their desk because they're too lazy to put them in the dishwasher (dishwasher for god's sake! it's not even like they have to clean it themselves!).

That's one of those stereotypes that really just is very true. Girl houses jsut really tend to be cleaner. Thoguh I think the reasons are more complex than men just being filthy pigs.

I've lived with 8 different guys, 6 of them in student apartments. The weirdest thing was the guy most messy and lazy about cleaning up after himself kept his own room immaculate.

The first three places were constantly messy. I think guys really can't stand cleaning up if other's don't pitch in too. In one place two of us always cleaned up after ourselves, one mostly did and the last one was the afforementioned dude. So what happened was he wouldn't clean up after himself and then the rest of us didn't either. He'd leave plates all over the shop and remainders of cereal and milk, pasta in pots etc etc headwrecking stuff.

Saw this in a lot of guy houses, place just in a tip. Girl houses always seemed tidy other than bedrooms, which were usually covered in enough clothes to dress a primary school. I think guys feel less embarrassed about people seeing them living in filth.

Fortunately the place I live now its just me, another guy and a girl who's virtualyl never there. Both clean up after ourselves so works out fine

MissFlitworth

Sharrow wrote: »

Do we have any female judges?
How many have we had?

Definitely do in the Circuit/District courts, although not sure how many. 3 female supreme court judges

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Denham
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_McGuinness (former)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidelma_Macken

Edit: (D'oh, didn't see Sthenos post first!)

Malari

liah wrote: »

*I don't actually think all men are disgusting, but 8/8 odds have me wondering.. :pac:

Fear not Liah, of the 5 men I've lived with, 5 were clean! As for the women, not so much. Actually not at all. Messy cows, most of them. You've just had bad luck I think!

Last bastion of masculinity? Uh....strip clubs?

krudler

liah wrote: »

The last bastion of masculinity is not cleaning up after yourself :pac:

I've lived with guys for the last few years. Filthy. FILTHY! :mad:

They don't care if dishes get washed, or floors get swept, or notice when I end up having to do either of these things because no one else will. They don't care if the cat vomited on the bathroom floor, or that all the rotting food from the bins they never take out is leaking all over the kitchen. They don't mind using mugs for ashtrays or having piles of plates stacked on their desk because they're too lazy to put them in the dishwasher (dishwasher for god's sake! it's not even like they have to clean it themselves!).

I've tried so many times to just not clean up after them to see if they do it themselves, but they don't. It's like they're dirt-blind. And every single guy I've lived with has been like this (all 8 of them), though some more extreme than others.

I'm not even a clean freak by any stretch of the imagination, either - boys are just icky


*I don't actually think all men are disgusting, but 8/8 odds have me wondering.. :pac:

I couldnt live with people who dont clean up, messes can be cleaned so nobody should have to feel like they cant spill a crumb or something, but not doing something as basic as cleaning dishes , or at least leaving them steeping in water to clean properly later is just mank.
I've often had people remark how clean our house is given its two single guys who live there, its not hard, if you dont mess it up you dont have to clean it very often hoovering gets done twice a week as its only the bedrooms and upstairs that have capret, and I mop up when it needs doing. not a neat freak either but I dont get how people let their houses turn into a pigsty. I have a dishwasher thats never even been turned on, its pointless for the amount of stuff thats ever left to be washed. My last apartment we were the first people to move into it as it was a new building, the day I was moving out 4 years later the dishwasher still had the instruction manual and an unopened box of washing tablets in it :pac:

Its not just a male thing either, when I was with my ex she lived with 3 other girls in a rented house, it was absoutely disgusting, pizza boxes with mouldy pizza in the kitchen, ashtrays left stinking of fags and not empited lying around and cans of stale beer still open lying around the place, not to mention random shows and clothes just left in heaps around the sitting room. People are messy, its not just a gender thing.

Buceph

Malari wrote: »

Last bastion of masculinity? Uh....strip clubs?

I was reading up on Las Vegas* and all the guidebooks have bits on strip clubs. A lot of them are pitching themselves as female friendly, with a couple supposedely excelling at it. And they're not just aiming at lesbians, although that's a part of it, but heterosexual couples who want to do something a bit risque, and a couple of them even have male strippers in their own section, or mixed in with the female strippers. And that's after the main shows on the strip aimed at women with oiled up men on display.


Did you really think that Las Vegas wouldn't try and make a quick buck out of horny women?




*I do virtual holidays, where I'll read guide books of places I want to eventually go, and decide on what I'll go see and where I'll eat and the like.

Logical Fallacy

The last bastion of masculinity is the shared pain of watching another man get hit in the nuts with an errant football.:eek:

liah

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I think guys really can't stand cleaning up if other's don't pitch in too.

Mostly true, though in my current situation, I'm effectively the unspoken maid - me cleaning up has no bearing on whether they clean up.

But my roommate is messy because the other housemate is messy, I reckon. The other guy is a complete and total dirtbag, NEVER cleans up after ANYTHING he does, so of course my roommate says "well I'm just not going to bother anymore if he's not, I'm not his maid," and it all gets left to me - because I'm the only one who apparently doesn't want to be seen as disgusting when people are over (which is a lot.. so embarrassing).

It's this stupid stalemate that I have to suffer for, it sucks balls

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Morag

There are women 'nix coders who do compile kernels.
Yes it's small numbers but it's growing and steps are being made to try and change some of the culture which they find off putting, in the wake of the 'open source boobs' issue.

http://www.linuxchix.org/

Silverfish

I'm sticking with my racing pigeons theory still.

Also I'm the only female member of the Goldfish Society of Great Britain ao take that, male bastion of goldfish breeding!

Buceph

Silverfish wrote: »

I'm sticking with my racing pigeons theory still.

Also I'm the only female member of the Goldfish Society of Great Britain ao take that, male bastion of goldfish breeding!

You'll only try and women it up by making the fish all sparkly!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

krudler

peeing standing up.

boo-yah.

(yes I know women can too but it'd probably be messy, so its ours for now)

Silverfish

Buceph wrote: »

You'll only try and women it up by making the fish all sparkly!

Yeah? And? Worth more to Cash4Gold places then.

Buceph

Silverfish wrote: »

Yeah? And? Worth more to Cash4Gold places then.

All that money society has flushed down the toilet.

*shakes head*

Morag

krudler wrote: »

peeing standing up.

boo-yah.

(yes I know women can too but it'd probably be messy, so its ours for now)

It's not messy if you use a FUD(Female Urination Device).
There are several on the market,

http://www.go-girl.com/what-is-gogirl.asp
http://p-standingup.com/
http://www.shewee.com/newstore/
http://www.urifemme.com/

cdaly_

Sharrow wrote: »

There are women 'nix coders who do compile kernels.
Yes it's small numbers but it's growing and steps are being made to try and change some of the culture which they find off putting, in the wake of the 'open source boobs' issue.

http://www.linuxchix.org/

<waves at sharrow...>

jackiebaron

I'd tend to hazard a guess that there are some hobbies that are male-dominated because the males in question are also nerds and women find the hobbies incomprehensibly anal such as trainspotting or building ships in bottles, etc.

liah

What about really bad Sci-fi? The only people I've known who can tolerate it/are really into it have all been male.

Buceph

liah wrote: »

What about really bad Sci-fi? The only people I've known who can tolerate it/are really into it have all been male.

As long as I can accredit really bad fantasy to women.

Nhead

Just an observation you don't see a lot of female drummers!

liah

Buceph wrote: »

As long as I can accredit really bad fantasy to women.

That's true. I'm not sure why, but it is what it is..

Morag

liah wrote: »

What about really bad Sci-fi? The only people I've known who can tolerate it/are really into it have all been male.

Define bad please.

Cos I blake 7, space 1999, Dune, scanners, bablyon 5, plan 9 form outer space.

liah

Sharrow wrote: »

Define bad please.

Cos I blake 7, space 1999, Dune, scanners, bablyon 5, plan 9 form outer space.

Was your sex reassigned at birth?


(though, in fairness, who doesn't like Plan 9? )

Buceph

Nhead wrote: »

Just an observation you don't see a lot of female drummers!

And when you do they're always stonkingly hawt.


Proof.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMKmQmkJ9gg

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Nhead

Buceph wrote: »

And when you do they're always stonkingly hawt.


Proof.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMKmQmkJ9gg

Ha ha that's brilliant (great drummer btw).

Exile 1798

Buceph wrote: »

I was thinking along the sports lines when I thought of the thread (mainly golf, but also soccer/rugby.)

I think women in general can be just as much of a fanatic as a man can, I know my mother watches far more soccer than my dad (who hates it.) And she'll often be texting with my brother to share her analysis. But for soccer in England there were very low attendences by female fans. They decided this was down to the hooliganism in specific, and the general boisterous attitude in general. There were loads of stories of fathers bringing their daughters to matches right up to the sixties. But when the lad/lout behaviour snuck in women stopped going. So the English clubs have made a determined effort to stamp out hooliganism (which was blatantly wrong) and to make it a more friendly affair for everyone, so entire families could come along. Whether this is a business strategy or an ethical decision is irrelevant (for this thread I think anyway.) The terraces were seen as a bastion of maledom, but history shows that's wrong, and they've tried to address the recent trend that ran to the contrary. There was no innate difference in the substantial aspect, but a few differences in the ancilliary aspects.

Inherently wrong? I don't agree.

And English soccer terraces were almost exclusively male before hooliganism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7jcB_v5inc

Boys just wanna have fun.

Morag

liah wrote: »

Was your sex reassigned at birth?
(though, in fairness, who doesn't like Plan 9? )

No it wasn't but while I know you meant that as a funny comment,
it's harsh to say that to someone who is a woman.

I know I have what can be considered 'blokey' interests but I've had my gender questioned a lot growing up due to not being 'girlie' or being interested in what my peers were, which resulted in a lot of stress, bullying and ostracisation having gone to all girl schools for both secondary and primary.

Thank the gods for the internet cos it's only there that I found women who were also gamers, geeks, scifi fans, techies, comic book fans, coders and knew for sure I am not a freak.

liah

Sharrow wrote: »

No it wasn't but while I know you meant that as a funny comment,
it's harsh to say that to someone who is a woman.

Why is it more harsh towards a woman than, say, anyone else? It was only a joke Hell, I've been asked if I wasn't born a boy because I have masculine interests. Never took it as anything more than banter.. should I?

Nhead

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Ah yeah of course there are I just meant compared to bass players/guitarists. Don't forget Palmolive of The Slits and Karen Carpenter!! And great call on all the above:)

Buceph

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Inherently wrong? I don't agree.

What did I say was supposedly inherently wrong? (apart from implying hooliganism is/was.)

And English soccer terraces were almost exclusively male before hooliganism.

I can't remember where I read it, it may have been from the report Labour's Soccer Tzar did on keeping soccer as part of Britains culture, but it said there used to be a lot of young girls(teenagers and younger) brought to matches up to the sixties. A small proportion, but still a sizable proportion.



Sharrow: The best sci-fi book I've ever read (outside of Huxley's Brave New World) is Ursula le Guin's The Dispossessed. I think it is genuinely one of the most thought provoking fiction books I ever read, and deals with cultures, those familiar and alien, and our reaction to them like no other book I've read. And she's a strong proponent of women in sci-fi and fantasy (although I heard she fell out with the feminist "movement" over something.)

krudler

Buceph wrote: »

As long as I can accredit really bad fantasy to women.

Twilight, urgh.

MissFlitworth

Sharrow wrote: »

Define bad please.

Cos I blake 7, space 1999, Dune, scanners, bablyon 5, plan 9 form outer space.

+1 really awful sci fi rates just below really good sci fi & just above really awful 80s action movies at the top list of my favourite things to watch, and definitely a lady.

@Silverfish, I have such a happy image in my head of someone at the cash 4 gold booth with a bowl of sparkly goldfishes arguing hammer-and-tongs about their right to exchange said fishies for cash

Exile 1798

Buceph wrote: »

What did I say was supposedly inherently wrong? (apart from implying hooliganism is/was.)

I highlighted the specific line I was querying.

"The terraces were seen as a bastion of maledom, but history shows that's wrong"

MissFlitworth

Might model making be a nearly entirely male hobby? Based only on my own family, we have lots of men who are nearly blind from painting the detailed bits of uniforms onto soldiers & don't mind taking a boat to Liverpool every 2nd weekend to go to model conferences etc. and not a single woman with their own tiny paintbrush

(by model making I mean this stuff)

Buceph

Exile 1798 wrote: »

I highlighted the specific line I was querying.

"The terraces were seen as a bastion of maledom, but history shows that's wrong"

I didn't use the word inherently to describe the claims. Although you could argue that all historical claims are as a matter of fact inherent claims. It'd be a bit redundant to add the word though. I don't know why you're drawing attention to it. I didn't use it.

I was simplying saying that football fandom isn't segregated along gender lines naturally.

MissFlitworth wrote: »

Might model making be a nearly entirely male hobby? Based only on my own family, we have lots of men who are nearly blind from painting the detailed bits of uniforms onto soldiers & don't mind taking a boat to Liverpool every 2nd weekend to go to model conferences etc. and not a single woman with their own tiny paintbrush

(by model making I mean this stuff)

Nop. Sorry. I went to Prince August in Cork with my gaming society a year or two ago. Some of the women with us bought models and stuff to look at/paint. And a little girl was bought a modelling kit while we were down there.

I'd agree in general though. It does seem to be a very male arts and crafts endeavour. Although I have met a few female Warhammer players.

Morag

Buceph wrote: »

Although I have met a few female Warhammer players.

Eh that would be me as well,
FB Orks and Gobbos,
Necromumda Escher gangers
40K Sisters of Battle.

Exile 1798

Buceph wrote: »

I didn't use the word inherently to describe the claims. Although you could argue that all historical claims are as a matter of fact inherent claims. It'd be a bit redundant to add the word though. I don't know why you're drawing attention to it. I didn't use it.

I was simplying saying that football fandom isn't segregated along gender lines naturally.

Well I read that as the clear implication of the statement.

I used to work with an old Scouser who grew up on the Kop in the 60s. The stories he’d tell. It was perhaps the highlight of his life. He was quite mournful that all that is changed utterly, which is a common sentiment. I don't agree that that is "wrong" as it's utterly subjective.

For example, what's right for the middle class stadium attending families is wrong for the working class men who they've priced out and whose terrace culture they've destroyed.

Buceph

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Well I read that as the clear implication of the statement.

I used to work with an old Scouser who grew up on the Kop in the 60s. The stories he’d tell. It was perhaps the highlight of his life. He was quite mournful that all that is changed utterly, which is a common sentiment. I don't agree that that is "wrong" as it's utterly subjective.

For example, what's right for the middle class stadium attending families is wrong for the working class men who they've priced out and whose terrace culture they've destroyed.

Yeah. Throwing bananas on the pitch at the black players was great example of "terrace culture." :rolleyes:

And it was Terrace Culture itself that caused its own downfall. There's plenty of other sports where there are still terraces, and where you're not strapped into a chair for a match.

I think your implication that working class man is something anathema to families is ridiculous too. And pricing out anyone has nothing to do with stopping the bigotry from some "fans." I knew a guy who played in the English first division during what you seem to think is acceptable behavior. He's appalled at the money in the game now, and the prices, but he's delighted that he can bring his young girl safely to a match.