dont forget to get onto your wedding suppliers re VAT reduction

D3PO

Just for those who havent thought about it, your wedding reception. cake, band etc are all based on the lower rate of VAT.

Therefore you should all be getting onto your suppliers to ensure you are having your bills reduced by 4.5%

Ive been onto my venue already today and everybody else should do likewise.

wexford12

is that the VAT rate of 13.5% has that been reduced to 9.5%. We have booked for later this year what did your hotel etc say when you rang

godtabh

Ours is booked for july 23rd

The only saving i can see would be on the venue. would everything else not just be cash in hand?

LBD

Good point!

Same as above poster, how was it received by your hotel? Just wondering how to broach the issue with ours. Wedding is 22nd July so just makes it!

Is the fact we signed a contract for such and such an amount per head irrelevant in this circumstance?

Appreciate your help

leeroybrown

It's important to note that the lower VAT rate has been reduced to 9% for specific tourism related items not in general. Quite a few wedding related items will likely be covered under this but not all will be.

godtabh

any list of what is and isnt covered?

I assume the hotel/venue will be?

leeroybrown

It doesn't link to the specific VAT rates but the Revenue have an outline page for the changes on their site. They probably won't update the specific rates until after the Finance Bill passes.

kc66

I remember the document I signed for the hotel had something in it about subject to VAT rate at the date. Im not sure what part of the costs this referred to. The government stated it applies to hotels and restaurants so it should apply to the cost of a wedding in a hotel.

Theboinkmaster

I just e-mailed our hotel stating that we're assuming they're passing on the reduction to us on all related costs, such as the accomodation.

I expecty they will as it won't affect their bottom line, all that changes is the amount of VAT they pass onto the Revenue.

If they didn't pass on the reduction they're effectively increasing their relevant prices by 4.5% which I'm not accepting.

Toto Wolfcastle

Just had a look at the information about his on the Revenue website.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/rates/rate-changes-jobs-initiative.html

What impact will the rate change have on traders?

In general, goods and services supplied before 1 July 2011 are liable to VAT at the rate in force at the time of supply, namely 13.5%. However, where goods and services are supplied in June 2011, by a trader who is obliged to issue a VAT invoice, and that trader issues the invoice after 30 June 2011, the rate in force in July applies, namely 9%.

A trader supplying goods and services to private individuals should always apply the VAT rate in force at the time of supply.

So that's something to mention if they refuse to give you the reduced wait.

However this bit confuses me.

What is the position with contracts existing on 1 July 2011?

Where a contract to supply goods or services is entered into before 1 July 2011, and the contract is not completed until after that date, the agreed VAT inclusive price may be subject to an appropriate adjustment due to the change in the VAT rate, unless there is agreement to the contrary between the contracting parties.

Opinions?

D3PO

LBD wrote: »

Good point!

Same as above poster, how was it received by your hotel? Just wondering how to broach the issue with ours. Wedding is 22nd July so just makes it!

Is the fact we signed a contract for such and such an amount per head irrelevant in this circumstance?

Appreciate your help

They were a bit taken aback given we had already neotiated down the price. I then pointed out to them that

a) I specifically asked them if VAT rates changed would my per head quote change and they had said yes

and

b) the meal breakdown they gave me was inc VAT to regardless of any discussion the price I agreed to implied that if VAT changed so would what I woudl pay.

They didnt want to move on it at all so I up front said to them that Im sure the national newspapers would love to write an article about them profiteering on the reduced VAT rate. They put me on hold and 5 mins later agreed to the reduction.

D3PO

leeroybrown wrote: »

It's important to note that the lower VAT rate has been reduced to 9% for specific tourism related items not in general. Quite a few wedding related items will likely be covered under this but not all will be.

where has anobody said everythign would be covered ..... the only specifics were hotel, cake and band and all are in the lower VAT band

Savman

D3PO wrote: »

band etc are all based on the lower rate of VAT.

Not true I'm afraid, entertainment has always been 21% VAT. I can't see anything in this new bill that suggests otherwise

leeroybrown

D3PO wrote: »

where has anobody said everythign would be covered ..... the only specifics were hotel, cake and band and all are in the lower VAT band

They haven't. I mentioned it for clarity's sake as I've already talked to people who've been confused by the reduction (mainly due to the way the media covered it).

krankykitty

Thanks to the OP for posting this. I've just sent a mail to the hotel with a link to the Revenue site to request adjusted price.

How is everyone getting on, are the hotels playing ball?

littlemissteach

So are most hotels being agreeable to this??
As it is, I'm going to our hotel to pay the final installment of our deposit this weekend, so would liked to be armed with info , if I'm to broach the subject!
Our wedding is in December...so what exactly is the new rule/law??Thanks

D3PO

littlemissteach wrote: »

So are most hotels being agreeable to this??
As it is, I'm going to our hotel to pay the final installment of our deposit this weekend, so would liked to be armed with info , if I'm to broach the subject!
Our wedding is in December...so what exactly is the new rule/law??Thanks

my hotel agreed to it. But they were reluctant and I had to bve very push and persistent on it. If they dont give it to you they are essentially pushing prices up 4.5% as giving you the money off is cost neutral to them.

Push push push. I was ready to tell them I was going to take legal advise if they didnt do it thankfully I didnt have to go that far but dont let them push you over.

Theboinkmaster

I'm still waiting for a reply (e-mailed them) as I'd say there're unsure themselves. But im relaxed enough about it as I'm taking my 4.5% one way or the other.

There's zero change they can argue their position to effectively increase my signed contract by 4.5%. Not going to happen.

I'll follow up with a phone call next week though, just to square it all away and get a confirmation e-mail with our updated prices on it.

Rew

We contacted 2 hotels and one told us there would be a reduction on food element and the other told us they were absorbing it!

lmkman

Contacted our hotel and they will discuss at next managment meeting. Will be pushing hard for discount.

toby2111

We paid deposit on our hotel in February,wedding in November.Are hotels legally obliged to pass on this vat reduction?Will they not say that because we signed contract in February,we will have to honour the terms of that contract and so pay the higher vat rate?Any legal experts out there???

leeroybrown

If you have an itemised VAT inclusive quote (which I'd expect to have) from the hotel then realistically they have a problem if they don't pass on the reduction.

krankykitty

leeroybrown wrote: »

If you have an itemised VAT inclusive quote (which I'd expect to have) from the hotel then realistically they have a problem if they don't pass on the reduction.

What sort of problem would they have, for example would the revenue be interested in it or would it be more from the point of view of giving them bad press due to increasing the price in this stealthy way.

'm waiting for the reply so trying to get my ammo in order in case they don't say they will do it.

toby2111

I'm just wary that some sneaky hotels will say nothing and hold onto the extra few bob themselves.Though it's a major risk if they get found out.Suppose we'll just wait until this vat reduction is passed into law-anyone know when it kicks in?

krankykitty

Well I just heard back from the hotel :mad:

They are saying that the price listed will not change because their operational costs food fuel electricity etc have increased yet they've reduced their prices over the last few years blah blah.

Any advice on what I can come back with?

kc66

krankykitty wrote: »

Well I just heard back from the hotel :mad:

They are saying that the price listed will not change because their operational costs food fuel electricity etc have increased yet they've reduced their prices over the last few years blah blah.

Any advice on what I can come back with?

Have you agreed a price with them? If so then they are increasing that price. If you have a contract they are breaking it. If they are not breaking the contract then they are overcharging VAT.
The minister said if the savings are not being passed on, the VAT reduction will be reversed. Maybe their response should be forwarded the relevant department in govt.

krankykitty

Cheers kc66. Never thought of the contract breaking aspect!

Going to look for that speech of the ministers...

I really don't want to get into an argument with the hotel as I'd like there to be good will between all parties but I don't want to feel I'm being taken advantage of either.

Theboinkmaster

krankykitty wrote: »

Cheers kc66. Never thought of the contract breaking aspect!

Going to look for that speech of the ministers...

I really don't want to get into an argument with the hotel as I'd like there to be good will between all parties but I don't want to feel I'm being taken advantage of either.

you are being taken advantage of - they're effectively imposing a 4.5% increase on you.

explain it to the hotel this way. Their costs such as fuel etc have gone up over the past few years - that's fine. They took that into account in their prices when you agreed them and signed the contact. So say the accomodation price for wedding was €100 per head and this is what it says in your contact and what you agreed.

The hotel gave you this price at the time of booking which took into account their profit margin and current operating costs etc. It should also have taken into account their estimate of the movement of these between time of booking and time of wedding, whether that's 6 months or 2 years. This is your locked-in price.

So it was €100 per head. This accounted for as follows:

Sales price €100 - quote per above on what will appear on your final VAT invoice
VAT €12 - what they will pay over to government
Income statement €88 - what cash they will keep and the amount they will recognise in the accounts.

It is the €88 amount they calculate their operating costs, margin etc from.

Now the VAT rate has changed to 9%:

Sales price €96
VAT €8
Income statement €88

So their total stays the same - and the amount paid to the government is less and what you pay is less, hence the whole point of this initiative.

So they're just trying to increase their €88 and hence break your contract.

CelineOC

Hi

I am looking for help in regards to this VAT reduction

I emailed the hotel we have booked with our wedding is not until 2012 so i mailed paying dumb saying i assume due to the vat chances you will be sending me out a new contract / bill and they have replied saying;

"Thanks for your email, we havent received any details on this yet, we are waiting on information from the Irish Hotel Federation and once we receive information with regard to this we will be in contact."

what can i reply to this as others here have said there hotel has been in talks with them so i assume the hotel federation are already aware of this?

4-5% on 120plus ppl is a major savings so i need to follow this thru!

thanks

D3PO

CelineOC wrote: »

Hi

I am looking for help in regards to this VAT reduction

I emailed the hotel we have booked with our wedding is not until 2012 so i mailed paying dumb saying i assume due to the vat chances you will be sending me out a new contract / bill and they have replied saying;

"Thanks for your email, we havent received any details on this yet, we are waiting on information from the Irish Hotel Federation and once we receive information with regard to this we will be in contact."

what can i reply to this as others here have said there hotel has been in talks with them so i assume the hotel federation are already aware of this?

4-5% on 120plus ppl is a major savings so i need to follow this thru!

thanks

Celine send this response to them

Dear xxxx,

thank you for your response regarding our query. Unfortunatly I do not find this response satisfactory. There is no reason for you to be awaiting detail from the Irish Hotel Federation. The changes are very simplistic any goods or service charged at the current 13.5% rate of VAT is now to be charged at 9%.

The price we negotiated with you when booking XXX as the venue was a total price not a price ex VAT so therfore you are required to pass the savings on. Failure to do that amounts to you unilaterally increasing the agreed price.

The reduction is price neutral to you and I would hope that this can be agreed upon amicably as I feel it is in youor best interest to have satisfied customers. However please be aware I am prepared to seek legal advise should the reduction not be passed on.

Im pretty sure many of the national newspapers would be interested in this story also. Dont you think so ?

I look forward to your response

Kind regards

Celine & xxx

CelineOC

DP3O thank you very much this letter is great.

For the mo i will just take parts from it and do up a reply to the hotel and depending on there reply i will then bring in the papers / legal etc.

Once again thank you very much.

Regards

CelineOC

hi

the hotel has come back to me again to say;

Thank you for your response and we note your concerns. This issue of the VAT reduction is going to be discussed by the Irish Hotels Federation who will offer advice and guidance to the industry. The IHF will issue guidance in due course on how this matter is to be dealt with before it comes into effect in July 2011.

The changes to the VAT rate were only announced late last week and there has been no further clarification as of yet. We will deal with the matter when we receive guidance from the IHF and further advice from the Revenue Commissioners. We are not in a position to offer any further comment on the issue of the VAT rate until we have had clarification from the IHF and Revenue Commissioners. These things typically take a few weeks to filter through and we will deal with the matter when we are presented with further information.

so i guess i'll wait and see what they come back with ! dont really see what the problem is as to me it seems its straight forward, they were charging 13% and its now reduced to 9%!!!?

D3PO

CelineOC wrote: »

hi

the hotel has come back to me again to say;

Thank you for your response and we note your concerns. This issue of the VAT reduction is going to be discussed by the Irish Hotels Federation who will offer advice and guidance to the industry. The IHF will issue guidance in due course on how this matter is to be dealt with before it comes into effect in July 2011.

The changes to the VAT rate were only announced late last week and there has been no further clarification as of yet. We will deal with the matter when we receive guidance from the IHF and further advice from the Revenue Commissioners. We are not in a position to offer any further comment on the issue of the VAT rate until we have had clarification from the IHF and Revenue Commissioners. These things typically take a few weeks to filter through and we will deal with the matter when we are presented with further information.

so i guess i'll wait and see what they come back with ! dont really see what the problem is as to me it seems its straight forward, they were charging 13% and its now reduced to 9%!!!?

They are fobbing you off. What they are basically saying is we are meeting other hotels soon to discuss how we can avoid passing on the VAT reduction and once we know the agnle to take we will let you know that angle.

Hotels set their own prices now. So its nothing more than a fob hoping you reluctantly back off.

CelineOC

so annoying ! I dont want to cos a song and dance with her just yet as i dont want a bad vibe before the wedding plans even start but to me its pretty black and white ! its VAT she cannot hold onto it and doesnt set the rate !! i will wait it out and see what her reply is and depending on that i will then take it further!

What do you think ?

Theboinkmaster

I sent a mail last week. We booked in November last year for our wedding this November and I'm relaxed enough now to follow it up for another few weeks.

You will get the reduction, there's no chance they could justify it and you don't want to be too heavy-handed as you have to work with these people to plan your wedding.

The change doens't come into affect into July so as long as your wedding isn't until well after that what's the rush? Just relax and follow it up in June/July.

krankykitty

I've emailed the Consumer Association of Ireland for more advice. I want to get all my facts straight before reverting to the hotel.

I will fill you all in if I get any relevant info about our rights here.

CelineOC

krankykitty wrote: »

I've emailed the Consumer Association of Ireland for more advice. I want to get all my facts straight before reverting to the hotel.

I will fill you all in if I get any relevant info about our rights here.

Great krankykitty thanks. Pls be sure to keep us posted the hotel still has got back to me but as the poster above said I'm not going to put them (for the moment!!!)

Theboinkmaster

Anyone have any updates? My hotel are being surprisingly stubborn :rolleyes:

LBD

We got our reply on friday.

-"It will apply, but we can’t say if it will apply to your wedding as we will have to wait for it to come into law, as this depends on the finance bill."

We just replied that guidelines say it will come into effect on the 1st of July and as our wedding is in late July we will take it that it does apply and that we will confirm once it comes into effect!

We didn't have the fight we thought we would have actually...

krankykitty

Excerpt from reply from National Consumer Agency:

"Your email does not indicate whether a deposit has been paid. If not, then no contract would yet be formed and the hotel would have discretion to alter the price. If a deposit has been paid and a contract formed then a consumer is entitled to expect the hotel to honour it within any terms and conditions that apply.

The NCA do not have information on the application of VAT. You would need to contact Revenue, at www.revenue.ie, to establish what VAT rate is payable where services are booked prior to, but not provided, until after the rate changes.

If the hotel are not adhering to the terms and conditions of the original contract and/or revenue rules and you are unable to resolve the matter over the phone or in person, then you could make a formal complaint in writing to the Manager. Failing resolution further options may be either the Small Claims Procedure or independent legal advice from a solicitor."

Bens

Just to throw in my experience here.
My sister is getting married in September. She asked the hotel about the new VAT rate last week and basically got the run around.
So I went down to the hotel with her today.

They tried to give me the run around too. Basically stone walling me in the hope I would go away.
They were sticking to their guns that the price would be the same as that agreed and saying they were facing increased costs and the rest blah blah blah.
I saw on another forum how to go about this, and from my day to day business dealings I know that if I asked them for an itemized quote to include the vat rate and amount, they would have to give it to me.

So now we have a quote that has everything on it and the vat rate too. They had to put on todays vat rate. That quote means everything now that the vat rate and amount is on it.

When the day comes to pay for the wedding we will just query the vat rate they are charging and ask for an itemized receipt similar to the one we have.

If they are charging what was agreed then there will be a difference because of the new lower vat rate, so we will see overcharging straight away and will refuse to pay if the amount does not match the quote we have now, but with the new vat amount.

The hotel will not have a leg to stand on. So even if they are giving you the run around now, you are completely within your rights to get them the vat difference back. Just get that quote.

Chubi

Hi All,

This is the response I received from my hotel;

“Deposits received pre 1 July 2011
If a member has already received a deposit for a future event that may take place after 1 July 2011 a VAT tax point has been created. The tax point for a business client is either the date the deposit is received or alternatively if a VAT invoice is raised before 15 of the following month the date of the VAT invoice. For example, if a business client paid a deposit for a future event on 1 May 2011 the VAT tax point would either be 1 May 2011 or if an invoice was raised, say on 14 June 2011 the VAT tax point would be 14 June 2011. In either situation a VAT tax point has been created and VAT at 13.5% must be declared to Revenue.
Alternatively, if a non business client paid a deposit before 1 July 2011 the VAT tax point is the date of receipt of payment. There is no VAT requirement to issue a VAT invoice to a non business client. In these circumstances a VAT tax point has been created prior to 1 July 2011 and VAT at 13.5% must be declared to Revenue.”

ETA - Our wedding in late next year and we paid our deposit in April....
Any thoughts???
Thanks,
DubShelley

montane

Chubi wrote: »

Hi All,

This is the response I received from my hotel;

“Deposits received pre 1 July 2011
If a member has already received a deposit for a future event that may take place after 1 July 2011 a VAT tax point has been created. The tax point for a business client is either the date the deposit is received or alternatively if a VAT invoice is raised before 15 of the following month the date of the VAT invoice. For example, if a business client paid a deposit for a future event on 1 May 2011 the VAT tax point would either be 1 May 2011 or if an invoice was raised, say on 14 June 2011 the VAT tax point would be 14 June 2011. In either situation a VAT tax point has been created and VAT at 13.5% must be declared to Revenue.
Alternatively, if a non business client paid a deposit before 1 July 2011 the VAT tax point is the date of receipt of payment. There is no VAT requirement to issue a VAT invoice to a non business client. In these circumstances a VAT tax point has been created prior to 1 July 2011 and VAT at 13.5% must be declared to Revenue.”

ETA - Our wedding in late next year and we paid our deposit in April....
Any thoughts???
Thanks,
DubShelley

I think you should cancel your wedding, wait until the new VAT date comes into force and then rebook saving you a whopping 4.5%. Or you could write a completely aggressive letter about taking legal action even though you have no basis for any.

Chubi

montane wrote: »

I think you should cancel your wedding, wait until the new VAT date comes into force and then rebook saving you a whopping 4.5%. Or you could write a completely aggressive letter about taking legal action even though you have no basis for any.

Why bother even replying?

Theboinkmaster

Chubi wrote: »

Hi All,

This is the response I received from my hotel;

“Deposits received pre 1 July 2011
If a member has already received a deposit for a future event that may take place after 1 July 2011 a VAT tax point has been created. The tax point for a business client is either the date the deposit is received or alternatively if a VAT invoice is raised before 15 of the following month the date of the VAT invoice. For example, if a business client paid a deposit for a future event on 1 May 2011 the VAT tax point would either be 1 May 2011 or if an invoice was raised, say on 14 June 2011 the VAT tax point would be 14 June 2011. In either situation a VAT tax point has been created and VAT at 13.5% must be declared to Revenue.
Alternatively, if a non business client paid a deposit before 1 July 2011 the VAT tax point is the date of receipt of payment. There is no VAT requirement to issue a VAT invoice to a non business client. In these circumstances a VAT tax point has been created prior to 1 July 2011 and VAT at 13.5% must be declared to Revenue.”

ETA - Our wedding in late next year and we paid our deposit in April....
Any thoughts???
Thanks,
DubShelley

That is complete and utter bo***x. A VAT registered hotel has to issue a VAT invoice, no matter who the customer is. Also the VAT tax point is the date of the invoice ie the date of your wedding.

They're just trying it on with you. For example if you paid a deposit of €5k in November 2010 for a wedding in August 2011 the hotel would not issue a VAT invoice in November and pay 13.5% of VAT of the €5k over to the Revenue then. They will wait until they create the full VAT invoice in August 2011 and pay over the VAT then.

Chubi

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

That is complete and utter bo***x. A VAT registered hotel has to issue a VAT invoice, no matter who the customer is. Also the VAT tax point is the date of the invoice ie the date of your wedding.

They're just trying it on with you. For example if you paid a deposit of €5k in November 2010 for a wedding in August 2011 the hotel would not issue a VAT invoice in November and pay 13.5% of VAT of the €5k over to the Revenue then. They will wait until they create the full VAT invoice in August 2011 and pay over the VAT then.

Thanks Boinkmaster, my thoughts exactly. What are the IHF playing at? I know this may seem like a relatively small saving to some but for us with 200-220 guest to pay for, an extra few quid in our pocket would be brilliant!

I've contacted Revenue to see what their opinion is so hopefully they'll get back to me soon!

CelineOC

Hi Chubi - pls let us know what revenue say..

I mean the hotel is not losin or gaining on vat UNLESS they are blantant going to Rob us by keepin d 4% savings! I am so angry with this! As I've said above I dnt want to get too into it with them YET as our wedding is not till nxt yr so plans haven't even started and I dnt want a bad vibe but at the same time d vat is d vat not their profile or loss??!!

Savman

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

That is complete and utter bo***x. A VAT registered hotel has to issue a VAT invoice, no matter who the customer is.

Please stop spreading misinformation.

Revenue.ie wrote:

An accountable person is not required to issue a VAT invoice to an unregistered person otherwise, but may do so if he or she so wishes.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/charging/invoicing.html#section3

It's still poor form by the hotels in this case.

Theboinkmaster

You're wrong - all hotels issue VAT receipts, sure look at the last thing you bought in a shop which is liable to VAT, it will have the VAT disclosed on it.

In any case you can request a VAT invoice from your hotel and simply refuse to pay until you receive it.

Bens

Chubi wrote: »

Thanks Boinkmaster, my thoughts exactly. What are the IHF playing at? I know this may seem like a relatively small saving to some but for us with 200-220 guest to pay for, an extra few quid in our pocket would be brilliant!

I've contacted Revenue to see what their opinion is so hopefully they'll get back to me soon!

Chubi, I think what you should do now, provided you havent sent out invitations etc with the location, is to start looking around at other venues. Arm yourself with the price you have agreed and show the other hotels. Tell them you already have your wedding booked, but because of the hotel being assholes that you are now looking for an alternative. Tell them if they beat the price you would be paying with the new vat rate along with the potential loss of your deposit you will go with them.

Let your current venue know you are doing this and that you will stop if they start acting reasonably.

Also if you ask for the vat amount to be included in your quote in writing, they have to give it to you.

This is what is happening.
"How much vat am I paying on that product and can you write it down for me please"
"Oh, we cant tell you that. P1ss off".

Theboinkmaster

Bens wrote: »

Chubi, I think what you should do now, provided you havent sent out invitations etc with the location, is to start looking around at other venues. Arm yourself with the price you have agreed and show the other hotels. Tell them you already have your wedding booked, but because of the hotel being assholes that you are now looking for an alternative. Tell them if they beat the price you would be paying with the new vat rate along with the potential loss of your deposit you will go with them.

Let your current venue know you are doing this and that you will stop if they start acting reasonably.

Also if you ask for the vat amount to be included in your quote in writing, they have to give it to you.

This is what is happening.
"How much vat am I paying on that product and can you write it down for me please"
"Oh, we cant tell you that. P1ss off".

I'd be careful about being so heavy-handed with the venue at this stage. Don't forget you have to work with these people towards your special day so there's a fine line between being firm and negotiating and being aggressive (which would work in other business situations).

My venue are thinking about it so what ill probably do is leave it until the morning after the wedding when the balance is due and then demand it then. If they don't play ball ill just suggest they come after me legally for the extra 4.5% as ill only pay the 9% rate.