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Trinity BEGGING for money
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The sense of entitlement among some of you is outrageous. I don't accept the argument that if someone went to a shít school, they deserve a scholarship and reduced points.
Do you agree that someone who grows up in a socially, economically, and academically deprived environment should be given the opportunity to demonstrate their academic abilities?A smart student will do well whether he is in a private or public school.
I haven't got the source to hand at the minute, but I can get it: I read a statistic a few years ago that said that 7% of students from D10 (where I'm from) and 9% from D11 progress to University, as compared to the >70% from D4 and >80% from D6. Is that because we're genetically inferior, or inherently prone to laziness, stupidity, failure?
But then you look at the extremely high success rate of TAP students in TCD, and their disproportionately high representation within sports clubs and societies. Off-hand I can think of, academic-wise, several successful final year students, a Ph.D graduate in History, a Ph.D student in the Institute of Neuroscience, two Ph.D students in the School of Psychology, several Psychology M.A. students, and several M.A. and M.Sc. graduates. Last year's winner of the TCD student award was a TAP student, and I know several TAP students in high committee positions, one of whom is a captain.
So I would argue that there are definitely some major environmental impediments to a successful leaving cert, and anyone who claims otherwise is extremely naive.A teacher can't learn for you, only YOU can learn. Likewise, rich kids get sent to the Institute and automatically assume that it guarantees them a place in TCD. It is merely an attempt to deflect personal responsibilty for your own education.
But then if you look at the Irish Times school leagues tables the private, fee-paying schools consistently top the charts. You can't build a house out of your own faeces, and when you're deprived of even the most simple resources such as books (my school had no library and my family couldn't afford the full book list) and you have to put up with a massive student:teacher ratio (my school was about 30:1) you can't exactly excel. There's also a poverty of stimulus in these deprived areas, and students are consistently led to believe that Trinity, UCD, DCU are all for rich people who go to decent schools. Let me ask you, have you ever even been to a working class area?What TAP represents for me is the creeping in of American-style "affirmative action", where positive discrimination (an oxymoron if I ever saw one) is encouraged to give poor people and minorities an unfair advantage in the world of education and employment. The situation is farcical in America, where kids feel under pressure to emphasise their "ethnic" heritage. So a middle class white kid will search his family tree back generations in the hope of finding a trace of a Jew or Latino somewhere down the line.
Your attitude seems very consistent with American Tea-Party conservativism, or elitism. Ignoring your ridiculous "positive discrimination" claim, do you honestly believe people from deprived socio-economic backgrounds have any semblence of an advantage over those from upper-middle class wealthy backgrounds with excellent private education? Stop being ridiculous and I suggest reevaluate your concept of privilege for a moment. The situation is farcical in America because poor people, many of whom are ethnic minorities, don't even have access to the most basic medical facilities because they can't afford health insurance (but as far as I'm aware there are increasing efforts to change this).
Trinity cannot maintain its current level of expenditure.
I agree.The fact that it released these videos is evidence of that.
TAP has been involved in a number of fundraising initiatives over the years, including the Trinity Takes to the Streets campaign. So, what's the problem?In recent years we've seen the building of the new gym, the long room hub and the refurbishment of the Pav. I'd imagine the university is in serious debt. Bring back fees combined with a loan system.
I'm not getting into a fees debate. I'm all for fees for those who can afford it, but not for those for whom fees would be the ultimate barrier to an education.Scrap TAP and cut funding to the SU and 90% of societies.
Your ignorance amazes me. Scrapping TAP would be a major backwards step and would only further perpetuate the elitism this country is so seriously plagued with. As much as much of what the SU does pisses me off, we need one. The clubs and societies are integral to the whole TCD experience, and they've already taken a massive cut.You pay for what you use. Don't expect the nanny state to fund your drinking for the next four years.
Who are you referring to here? Not the TAP students I hope, because that would raise a number of unfortunate implications regarding just how out of touch you are with reality. For the four years I've been in TCD I've had a weekend job as bouncer - a shít, dangerous, and consuming job. I have no parents to pay my rent, and I'm only 22. If you seriously believe that any money I have goes towards a bad habit then it perfectly explains why you have such a warped sense of social justice and equality.
Oh, and by the way, I don't drink.0 -
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Re you affirmative action cartoon: It's condescending to minorities to say they need extra help to succeed. It's like admitting they are inferior to you. It also demeans true minority achievement; i.e. success is labeled as result of affirmative action rather than hard work and ability.
Do you really think that the success of a middle-class person is due solely to their own ability rather than the privilege they have?
Here are some personal examples:
- I'm good with computers because my parents could afford one from when I was very young, and I've therefore been using them my entire life. (http://geekfeminism.org/2010/07/27/if-you-were-hacking-since-age-8-it-means-you-were-privileged/)
- I've been reading from a very early age, in part because my parents had a lot of books, could afford to buy me books, and could afford to take time to read to me and teach me to read myself.
- I went to a private school with a high rate of university acceptance, a low student-teacher ratio, and a whole host of facilities and extracurriculars because my parents could afford it.
- I did very well in my Leaving Cert not least because my parents suggested I get grinds at the Institute and offered to pay for them. I suspect I wouldn't have had the points to change course later on in college if I hadn't taken those grinds.
- My parents both attended college, and both came from families that valued education very highly, and were therefore very supportive of my going to college: it was pretty much expected.
- When I changed course, my parents were able to help me with the fees for the years I had to repeat. Without their assistance, I would have had to drop out of college.
- Similarly, when I wasn't able to get part-time work of any kind for a long time, my parents were able to help me out with an allowance for college. Again, I wouldn't have been able to finish college without that.
- Some of the best jobs I've ever gotten (from a CV perspective) were only possible because in the first place my parents knew someone who was willing to give me an opportunity at work experience, which turned into being asked to come back repeatedly later.
Those are just a few examples from my own life. Does that mean I'm undeserving of everything I've ever had? Does it mean that what I've achieved has nothing to do with my own skills and abilities? No. I did well and was able to take advantage of my many opportunities because I was gifted, and willing to put in the work. But I'm not nearly arrogant enough to think that the massive advantages I've received from my background had nothing to do with it.
Also, a corollary to TrollHammaren's picture:
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@ TrollHammaren
The fact that you work a part-time job and managed to succeed at college shows me that you're obviously a hard working and intelligent person. You're not the type of socialist leech that my OP was aimed at.
Statements like these do nothing to endear me towards you, OP. For one, you clearly don't understand what the word "socialist" means, but that's beside the point. I thought my previous posts indicated that TAP students are, in fact, extremely hard working and in many cases have to work much harder than people from middle-class backgrounds to succeed. The funny thing is that almost if not all my TAP friends work (I can't think of any who don't), and a good chunk of my middle-class friends don't (which I don't hold against them - education has to come first), so your original post seems to be directed towards a group that is largely non-existent.
The funniest part, I consistently vote for Socialist candidates in elections
Re you affirmative action cartoon: It's condescending to minorities to say they need extra help to succeed. It's like admitting they are inferior to you.
Now you're just being silly. Look at it in the context of American social policy. It's no secret that middle-class, white Americans are born with a significant advantage (just like here). The black kid in the picture needs help getting into university not because he's not a member of the "master race", but because he can't afford the 50K plus a year tuition fees. I shouldn't have to explain these pictures to you. Maybe this would be more fitting?
It also demeans true minority achievement; i.e. success is labeled as result of affirmative action rather than hard work and ability. This "shadow" will hang over each of the students you listed who went on to do MAs and PhDs for the rest of their academic careers
That's one of the great things about Trinity, very few people have that appalling attitude. Most of my fellow students were indifferent to my TAP status, and some of my interviewers in college were actually impressed with my TAP status, as it indicates that I managed to succeed in college despite overwhelming social and economic adversary. Your "shadow" opinion is very much in the minority, as most people are very aware that TAP students who succeed do it exclusively by their own merits.It also creates resentment and bitterness among those who have to work to fund college, those who don't receive grants, bursaries, free grinds classes etc
Are you saying we don't have to work? Even though everything I've said so far has indicated otherwise? The reason I get a grant and a small bursary is because I can't live off €6'000 a year without sleeping on the streets. I still have to work, just like the rest of my TAP friends. We also don't receive free grinds. We may be able to apply for a few classes (like 3 or 4) if they have the funding, but so can disability students. Also, even if you're not a TAP student you can apply to the student hardship fund. The reason we get this is because any other middle-class student's parents are in a much better position to pay for grinds than we are. The truth is that you have absolutely no reason to be bitter.What a ridiculous question. How do you know that I'm not "working class"?
Because your opinions are very, very indicative of someone who has been spoilt and doesn't recognise their privilege. Either that, or you're Bill Cullen
Ironically so called working class people nowadays don't work.
Are you fo' real?It's an outdated term that orginates from a time before social welfare payments, where urban dwellers worked in the factories and the mines.
I know where the name came from, and I couldn't care less. You're not making any point here. The fact is that "working class" is just a handy term to describe people from poorer socio-economic backgrounds. Either way, I'm not interested in getting into this.Furthermore, you'll find it's often irritating middle class snobs that are the biggest advocates of leftie policies like affirmative action and TAP. It makes them feel superior by thinking that the poor folk couldn't succeed without their help.
Such a cynical view of the middle-class lefties. A good chunk of my friends are lefties and their backgrounds range from poor to wealthy, but that doesn't matter. Regardless of class, all the lefties I know believe in left wing policies because they're acutely aware of the social injustices that permeate Irish society. Stop making unfounded claims.0 -
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