What do you think of combos in fighting games?

eco2live

Anyone else getting a bit bored with the concept of huge combos and juggles? Don't get me wrong I like strings of moves but as we get into double digits it gets old real quick. I find Street fighter 4 to be the most balanced game in relation to combos.

What other concepts would work? Stamina or increased vulnerability due to length of combo maybe? I understand the combos reward the dedicated but it can make some fighting games a bit robotic and less free flowing.

What do others think?

Doctor DooM

I'm very similar. I think it's a horrible feature of fighting games to be stuck in a combo for 10 or 20 seconds, brain off, while the other fighter does some huge chain of commands.

Of the modern fighters, SSF4 is easily my favourite combo wise, I guess difficult execution but short length.

I really dislike the dial a combo feel of the new MK, where you input 3 commands dial a combo style, and in the middle I guess would be BB and MvC3 which still require timing although ti can sometimes be looser than SF (chain combos).

It does feel to me though sometimes these games sometimes lose sight of what I like in fighting games because of the focus on combos- but then again, the meta game is shifted to land the first combo/ don't get comboed in them, so perhaps it's just I don't dig that.

K.O.Kiki

I think you will love this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRWLKT0RH0s

Back to discussion:
I *like* combos, but I dislike having to do just-frames/links to get them consistently.
I also prefer a fighter to have strong okizeme though.
Footsies are very fun, too.

And Bound-type combos (launch, combo, re-launch, combo) is too far.

I'll have to try playing KOF -- big combos in that series generally only happen after huge whiffs, everything else is footsies.

D4RK ONION

I personally love combos, Marvel is by far the most fun I've had in a fighting game in the training room. I could honestly sit in it doing combos for hours on end. BB is also a lot of fun in this regard and the combos are a good bit harder to do (but less open to different styles).

SSF4 is fine and all, but fighting a seriously turtle-ey player as Honda or Makoto is not my definition of fun. Entertaining, sure when you finally get in, but it really gets boring after a while.

I think 3s strikes a decent enough balance between the two sides. I also think AE may be moving closer to what I would prefer, but we'll see.

unky chop chop

Massive juggling combos that take half a players energy put me off a fighting game to be honest.
I prefer the strategy and mindgames involved rather than the speed of you finger dexterity
I find SSF4 strikes the perfect balance. I compare it to a nice game of chess whereas Marvel and BB are like checkers on speed.

chueytoo

D4RK ONION wrote: »

I personally love combos, Marvel is by far the most fun I've had in a fighting game in the training room. I could honestly sit in it doing combos for hours on end. BB is also a lot of fun in this regard and the combos are a good bit harder to do (but less open to different styles).

SSF4 is fine and all, but fighting a seriously turtle-ey player as Honda or Makoto is not my definition of fun. Entertaining, sure when you finally get in, but it really gets boring after a while.

I think 3s strikes a decent enough balance between the two sides. I also think AE may be moving closer to what I would prefer, but we'll see.

I'm gonna have to agree with nearly everything Onion said. I enjoy combos, but even I know when combos goes to long. >__> valk,makoto,litchi,arakune(cruse only) from bb (think the best person would be hakumen interms of combo time)

Same with mvc3 tron and dante combos are just way to long. So having short combos is good cause it keeps the matching going and never having a slow down in pace, cause your in like a 30+ hit combo. So I agree with ssf4 Or even ex headbutt on coutner hit ;__;

Like Onion said even if you got combos you still have to hit them and when a 20+ hit combo does as much dmg as a counter hit (hard punch) in ssf4. that i don't like.

Sairus

I love seeing those epic combos in MvC3 come out and anyone's who's played me in MvC3 will usually see me giggling away while I'm pasted around the place - however I can never take the game seriously because of them. Once I play MvC3 for longer and I've seen all the standard combos, I know I'm going to get bored of letting go of my stick for ten seconds while my health drains away.
Currently I do still love the game, and it's really satisfying landing flashy multi digit combos with such ease. I've always been terrible with long combo strings so it's grand for me
As has been said many times above, SSFIV strikes the perfect chord with me (shocking considering this is primarilly a SF board :pac: ) - it has combos, but they're short and punchy and once they're finished it gives both players a chance to counter attack. (Well, we'll see how long that lasts when Yun and Yang hit :pac: )
The back and forth aspect to a match is my favourite part of fighting games. Dominating a match because you get the first hit in is not why I play them.

Misty Chaos

Getting caught in a ridiculously long, character killing combo is one of the things that really put me off MvC3 ( apart from crap netcode. ) That said, I still think its a fun game to watch.

I prefer the more balanced approach SF has, where a combo won't generally kill you in one go. That said, I'm not too fond of turtles in the game either.

ayjayirl

As I can't do combo's properly, I'd have to say I prefer the matchplay and strategy elements to a fighting game and I think SSF4 series strikes the balance between good execution and playing the game right. To be good at the game you need both good execution and be skilled in the art of Yomi! None of the best players on our scene are good at one and not the other. They have both. The '2nd' tier players on the scene have one and not the other and Farz has neither.

I'd also say that fighting games that require good execution for long chain combos as being a pre-requisite reduce those that 'get in' on the game - especially noobs. A balance of both paradigms is a necessity imo

The combos in Marvel are just stupid imho. I know its a different game and all, just has absolutely no appeal for me at all.

Ramza

3s is a good balance between the two yeah, only exception is Genei Jin and Yang's Seiei Enbuu (and they're coming to SF4 now so hush hush :pac:)

I don't mind either but I prefer it like in SF4, ST, 3s etc, nothing too huge and fancy, although I play GG/BB/Marvel so I guess I'm biased in that way. I like em both, but I prefer the former

That's not to say there is no strategy in the games that have long combos. I usually find the games that have more focus on oki/combo possibilities are usually faster or more rushdown orientated (at least GG is). Regardless of what way the combos are in a game they all still have the same basic principles, so really I don't think it matters

Agreed though Ayjay, you can get by on the basics, magic series, etc, in GG and Marvel but you need to invest the time more in those games on your combos, it's just a flipside to SF/CVS etc, where more focus is put on normals, footsies, zoning. I like games like BB/GG for a change but I'll always be a tradition FG fan

All in all it's just variety

Take high level ST or SF4 as an example, not a lot goes on in real time for the most part, one would assume, but it's really like real time chess, that's what I love about fighting games at a high level. Capitalizing. Playing games that are more combo orientated is fun too for a change but I find sometimes the lack of footsies, for some part, is annoying. Those games are usually focused more on trickery, insane mixups, and relentless rush down for the most part. That being said I still think GG^C is one of the best and most balanced FGs ever period after ST (although I can't comment on ST's balance :pac:). Though each their own, there are tonnes of players that play BB/GG only, so I guess it's just preference

Fergus_

Love combos, drain your opponent's morale with each hit.

Delicious. :pac:

Yreval

I'm not too sure, if I'm being completely honest. While I love a good combo video as much as anyone and enjoy MvC3 a lot more than SF4, I wouldn't say it was because of the combos (not exclusively, at least).

Rather, it's the rushdown that makes MvC3 for me. Would I enjoy SF4 more if launchers and chain combos were introduced and nothing else was changed? Certainly not. But if there was more of an incentive to avoid defensive play - if blockstun was increased, reversals made harder, the gameplay sped up, throws weren't almost useless (in other words, if the game was more like SF2 :pac:) I'm quite certain I would enjoy it more.

Ken B

Think about this everybody: Draughts/Checkers has combos, Chess has none........


Go figure.

Vyze

Ken B wrote: »

Think about this everybody: Draughts/Checkers has combos, Chess has none........


Go figure.

And, much like chess, spending a full minute making absolutely zero movement is also accepted in SF4.

Ken B

Works for me, cheers.




(Now where did I put my 'Two and a half men' DVDs?)




Ps:I wrote a beautifully worded argument citing my reasons behind the previous post(using examples such as KIller Instinct etc.)....but this stupid site didn't post the message, I rewrote it with a reconsidered argument and the same thing happened.....I'm done. Short and sweet it is so......

unky chop chop

Vyze wrote: »

And, much like chess, spending a full minute making absolutely zero movement is also accepted in SF4.

It's the thinking mans game so.It's what you could do that creates the tense stand offs in SF.Street fighter 4 has footsies like no other(except for Third Strike)

Come on ken,I wanna hear this argument...

Ken B

unky chop chop wrote: »

It's the thinking mans game so.It's what you could do that creates the tense stand offs in SF.Street fighter 4 has footsies like no other(except for Third Strike)

Come on ken,I wanna hear this argument...

Ah jeez Unky, I'm not sure I'll have the time to recall the essay-like post I created this afternoon.

I've gotta go and queue outside the IMAX right now, to make sure I get primo seats for Transformers 3(insert title here).....

Michael Bay RULES!!

Vyze

ST is better at that tension, since if you make a single ****-up in your footsies or spacing or whatever you're going down.

GorySnake

I like combos, combos are fun

Dreddybajs

unky chop chop wrote: »

It's the thinking mans game so.It's what you could do that creates the tense stand offs in SF.Street fighter 4 has footsies like no other(except for Third Strike)

To name but a few, ST, A2, and CVS2 have much more comprehensive footsie games than SF4 imo.

I actually think SF4 footsies are pretty low on the scale due to two factors - the walk speed is very slow (don't think that needs explanation as to why it's bad for footsies) and the focus system, which limits which pokes are useful at midrange footsies largely.

I actually think 3rd Strike has this problem too to an extent due to the parry system and the prevalence of OS parrying in footsies but I think that still provides a more exciting footsie experience than SF4.

Robbknoll

Me thinks combos shouldnt be too long and have to be an advanced skill to pull off in length. I really like MK9 but the combo system is very easy, you can input a standard combo as fast as possible and watch it come out and wait to continue.

Link combos over chain combos for me too, links are more satisfying to pull off for me, chain combos feel like their for kids

Ramza

I don't like how 3s takes away zoning for the most part, in most situations, you can still zone but not as much. (GO URIEN WHO HAS NO FOOTSIES) And footsies in a way with the parrying.

SF4 has it but yeah not as much with the focus system (we debated this in another thread so not gonna go into it tho). It's there tho

CVS is great fun, only dabbed in it but I used to play it a lot, excellent game

TVSAdamwest

Doesn't this all just boil down to personal choice.For example in BB if i wanted short combos with a bigger pay off i would choose Hakumen or Tager and conversely if i wanted to do large combos for my damage i would pick litchi or squiddy boo (Arakune)

Same can be said for Sentinel and Dante in MVC3
Feng and Lili in tekken
Guile and Sakura dont hold me to this I still havent played SSFIV:pac:

K.O.Kiki

Sakura in SF4 is one of the most dangerous combo machines out there IMO.

Resets FROM HELL.

Sairus

TVSAdamwest wrote: »

Doesn't this all just boil down to personal choice.

Indeed it does. This thread is just asking people's opinions on the topic.

Orim

Shít I erased my post.

I'm going to do a Ken and not retype it all. In essence :

- Footsies are best

- Long combos are not bad

- Heavily based combo games have too clear a distinction between winner and loser

- MK dial-a-combo bad. Links or combos that require timing/positioning good.

Ramza

Orim wrote: »

- Heavily based combo games have too clear a distinction between winner and loser

Nah not really, it's usually down to the player, that happens in every game, some games are close, some rounds people get perfected etc. two people of same skill go neck and neck in most every game

Orim

I agree Ramza. As I say I had more written but to kind of clarify, it's purely a personal feeling that stuff like Marvel I always feel like there's clear winner/loser whereas games like ST it always seems like I have a chance or there could be a comeback.

I've watched enough of both games to know that it's not true but my feeling is that the combo style games (GG, BB, Marvels) very rarely build the level of tension of the more footsie based games (ST, CvS2, even 3s[though this is kind of weird hybrid])

Placebo

I would classify 3s having better footsies than sf4 and say most games. [not too sure on cvs2, i didnt play it much]
Main reason is the parry technicality and the universal over heads.
Those two along side simple ,plain blocking just opens up a portal of mixups and mind games. I find sf4 much more defensive, you can just sit there and block. The game is also slow in speed in comparison to 3s so blocking is fairly easy, nothing comes as a shock.

Combo wise, SF4 has a great threshold and good damage scaling.
Long winded combos look ridiculous.

Kof combos in the new games seem pretty satisfying too.

Dreddybajs

I wouldn't call stuff like mixing people up with universal overheads part of footsies, I think that sort of close range mixup is a separate element of the game.

I think of footsies more as poking, counterpoking, whiff punishing, trying to keep your ground midscreen and push the other guy into the corner, that sort of thing.

Sabre0001

I think that SF4 has a nice balance struck. Damage scaling works well so even if people are pulling massive stylish combos out, they do little by the end. Even Seth and Sakura work more from mixups which, while difficult to predict, can be countered and players have a chance at getting out.

Marvel combos, for the most part, look alright. The game is a bit over the top but it appeals to a certain niche. In saying that, the Magneto (almost) infinate looks ridiculous. I don't like getting caught up in long winded combos though. Fun to pull off & perfect in training.....waaaay less fun when on the other end.

Juggle combos bother me a little. They don't look right - Tekken, Mortal Kombat. Seeing people rebounce when kicked in the shin just looks off to me. But that's more a visual element. Don't play Tekken but getting hit for 30-50% in MK is a bit much sometimes. Could be why the block button is so powerful and important.

Placebo

Dreddybajs wrote: »

I wouldn't call stuff like mixing people up with universal overheads part of footsies, I think that sort of close range mixup is a separate element of the game.

I think of footsies more as poking, counterpoking, whiff punishing, trying to keep your ground midscreen and push the other guy into the corner, that sort of thing.

I just think UOH make people go back and forth, trying to poke each other out and cancel into a super, where as without UOH, u can just sit down and block

Dreddybajs

Yeah I definitely think it's a really cool thing to have in the game, feels awesome hitconfirming a meaty uoh into super or DP.

Kirby

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I really dislike the dial a combo feel of the new MK, where you input 3 commands dial a combo style.

Thats not quite true. Maybe for noobs but after an hour with the game you begin to understand the dynamics of combo's. MK has combo breakers.

You can burn a stock of EX metre to combo break. Kind of like FADC. Okay, you will miss out on metre, but your opponent did 10% damage instead of 40%.

MK9 is nowhere near SSF4. It's not even close. But its not merely dial a combo.

Doctor DooM

Kirby wrote: »

Thats not quite true. Maybe for noobs but after an hour with the game you begin to understand the dynamics of combo's. MK has combo breakers.

You can burn a stock of EX metre to combo break. Kind of like FADC. Okay, you will miss out on metre, but your opponent did 10% damage instead of 40%.

MK9 is nowhere near SSF4. It's not even close. But its not merely dial a combo.

That doesn't change the fact you input combos dial a combo style, quick as possible. It doesn't feel fun or natural.

I am well aware thats not the be all to comboing in MK though.

Neeknak

Personally, like a lot of others, I think SSF4 has a pretty good balance. It takes skill to do most of the longer combos so not everyone is able to bash them out without a second thought.

I enjoy Marvel for a mess around but I just don't have the ability to pull off character killing combos.

I've tried my hand at BB:CT & CS but just can't really get to grips with it and find it disheartening when I'm stuck watching someone force themselves on me with 20 and 30 hit combos.

For me, SSF4 has it as close to right as I've experienced.

ogiekeaney

I really admire some of the long fadc combos in ssf4 cos it takes alot of skill to pull off. However, having to watch a 20 second easy peasy dante combo in mvc3 because of lag is just taking the piss.

Doyler01

Combos are swell

chueytoo

Robbknoll wrote: »

Link combos over chain combos for me too, links are more satisfying to pull off for me, chain combos feel like their for kids

Link combos are good i agree. I feel great whenever I pull a combo in ssf4 But i don't think chain combos are easy. If you can pull off all ssf4 challenges and bb challenges then you can say it.

Not going to lie, I can only do a few of ssf4 trials like 4-5 ppl. Also some of Blazblue. I think both are viable ways to do combos. I will agree links are harder (not that much) ssf4 is focus on footsie,throws,knock down/wake up etc
Think it was doom who told me, if akuma knocked guile down it was all over him or something.

But chain combos in blazblue are not for kids in my opinion especially the advance ones. Yeah mk9 combos seem a bit to easy