Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Do you believe a 'you' exists?
Options
Comments
-
absolutely not, the body still wants to take care of itself, the body still wants to attract other humans, I still wash my clothes and exercise, im still trying to work at setting up a business. And its a great point, cause thats exactly what I thought, a sort of "why would you bother if 'you' didnt matter. But the truth is, people seem to think the self is what makes you human. Im saying its an unnecessary hindrance.
I will admit though that for me personally there was a slight zap in motivation because when you live in the moment other things stop being important.
It didnt actually stop me from doing stuff, I just didnt think about it, I just did it, and was 100% focused when doing it.
The ego , the messy one, the one that makes you care about stupid things that are not important, the one that makes you feel awkward silences, the one that creates pointless inhibitions like not asking someone something that you want to, the one that keeps you trying to argue your point even though you know you've lost, the one that skews your view of how things really are, that ego is the self I talk about, when you drop this things become simpler and more obvious.
Dropping this does NOT mean dropping compassion, emotions, sadness, anger, you are still a human being, and behave like one, you just become more chilled out, because stupid things arent important, you family friends and comfort it important.
So on that note, yes to an extent you must be careful you dont zen out on a mountain or something, you must keep engaging in life. Because otherwise you will just become isolated and presumed crazy. No human or animal wants that.
Sounds a lot like this to me.
Check it out in your own time.0 -
NOTHING here costs a penny, just in case there's sceptics that may think im trying to sneakily do some advertising or something...
I post on a forum called Uncommon Knowledge , its a psychology forum, I always had a mild interest. Now this was NOTHING to do with no self or anything. It was to do with me trying to learn about confidence and self esteem and all that kind of stuff.
A guy started a thread saying he felt an "in sync" feeling in life, someone replied explaining that it may have been a glimpse of enlightenment. I really hate that word because of its associations but thats what it is. I was extremely interested, and he began to present the very arguments that I did above, he then encouraged me to go to his blog and do the experiments:
http://ghostvirus2011.blogspot.com/
If you go to the top of the blog you'll see exp. 1 exp 2 etc, its worth going through his blog as well, FAQs etc,
I then began reading through a site called Ruthless Truth, a site created by a philosopher who figured out that enlightenment is not about meditating for 25 years , and going on retreats to Tibet, he figured that you can lose the self with aggressive questioning, and it can happen very quickly, he showed others and they now "liberate" people online. You see, if the word "enlightenment" wasnt used this whole thing wouldn't sound as extreme, the word is correct but I hate it because people think of it as some sort of higher conciousness. Its just seeing things the way they are that's all. Its just accepting existence for what it is, as oppose to seeing it through the lens of the self.
Please please please dont lose interest or get too insulted if they are rude to you, or too aggressive, or almost stubborn sounding. Or dont be put off if they are asking you very basic short questions, they are just forcing you to look at reality.
heres the link.http://www.ruthlesstruth.com/arena/viewforum.php?f=3
Some people may have reservations about the site, maybe a bit childish, a bit juvenile? You know what , these guys know what they're doing and its free. So you honestly have nothing to lose (well maybe the self
). So if you feel reluctant just say to yourself, "ah feck it ill give it a go". No ones gonna know, and it may fail as well, only YOU can do it, they just hold your hand while doing it.
Right so I started posting, heres the thread where I became liberated if anyones interested. I started that thread after doing all the experiments outlined above, also after reading a free ebook called Brutal Beginnings.
http://www.ruthlesstruth.com/arena/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1001
Brutal Beginnings is pretty much a copy and paste of liberations (cant think of a better word, im open to suggestions). Its inspiring, cause you get to see the whats going on in the minds of people as they are going through the process, so have a look for it on the site, or even google should get it for you, actually here it is...http://www.mediafire.com/?73x9ap155nh20ey
Well I think thats about it, after 2 weeks of hard looking, trying everything, trying to pretend there was no self, trying to look at physical obects and recognise how real they were, trying to find the self, experiencing huge discomfort because the self was fighting the "battle". Remember you are challenging a lifetime of beliefs. But eventually it just clicked while I was fixing my grandads computer, at aroung 6pm april 16th, I looked at the couch, and was slightly overwhelmed at how real it was , i chuckled a bit, I looked back for that self, and it was genuinely gone. I couldnt even imagine it. Everything was REALLY clear, not physically, everything looked the same, but things seem really clear now, and empty mind, its almost like your field of vision has widened even though you are not actually seeing anymore than anyone else. That cant be described in words tbh. Its just clarity or the truth. (ok I know that stuff sounds offputting but thats all I can say there)
The analogy i like to use is this. You know when your chatting to someone outside and theres something annoying in the distance (sound wise) but your not quite sure what it is, your not even consciously thinking about it, but then all the sudden a car alarm down the road STOPS. You say "Jesus that was annoying", yet you barely noticed it till it stopped. Well the car alarm in this case is the self, the inner chatter, the wrong way you perceive reality. It all simply stops, and its a subtle feeling of "oh right, is that it?" , you are then seeing things the way they really are after that.
Remember , im not asking you to believe anything, im asking you to not believe something.
Alot of atheists are proud and almost smug with their comments of no God. They talk about "no proof , its all nonsense", well its funny because all these same people believe something that there is no proof of, the self.
Its just a belief, like people 1000s of years believed that a solar eclipse was some sort of message from the Gods.
Heres my theory, once humans figure out more about the brain, and once they see real proof that the self is just an unnecessary detrimental thought they will be able to remove it with some procedure (no idea what), I then believe every human will be "enlightened" , and they will look back at us and say "I cannot believe that they lived with that lie", just like we do with people 1000s of years ago with other beliefs.0 -
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
-
-
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
-
I think ill keep my stuff thanks:D, this is an example of the belief that a self is required for someone to be human. The stuff in my room belongs to me, this body, this body earned it. Do you think a dog is happy to give away his bone just because he does not believe in a self? Its not far off, its his possesion, hes not going to give it away. There is no higher energy or spirit or soul saying 'this is mine', its just a dog wanting his bone that he owns. What Im trying to say is , that no self does not mean not being a human being.Hmm, the conversation has been fruitful since I last checked in. I'll stick with this.
Any sort of ownership requires a concept of self. It's only a concept though. If you don't accept that, then I will gladly take all the things you own off you, because they're not yours.
If I tell you a story of my life I will be telling you everything that happened to this body as it grew up, there doesnt need to be a 'me', yes the word is handy because it identifies this body from your body or someone elses body but again there is no higher energy or controller that experienced it, just the brain. I went for a run the other day, my brain triggered signals to move my legs , there was no self controlling this. it was just happening. Try walking around yourself there and see is there honestly a 'you' deciding how you legs are going to move? Is there honestly a 'you' controlling that movement? Then tell the story of that 'walk around', and question was there really need for a 'you' to be in that story? Is it plausible to say that perhaps it was just your body doing that stuff?You also must have a concept of self in relation to your life story. If you tell me about yourself from when you were born up until now you will tell me a story. This story is your self concept. Again, it is only a concept. But without it you would not exist as you do right now.
Ok here you got me, when I say living in the now, living in the moment, I dont mean it in a literal 100% 'not think of ANYTHING else', my brain still predicts events, my brain is thinking that I have a meeting next tuesday.Also, I am highly suspicious of this 'living in the now' thinking.
It is impossible to live completely in the now. You always contextualise your experience with expectations and memories of what is past. Otherwise you could not function at all. Animals also have this, on a somewhat more basic level. When you go outside you expect that things will go a certain way and the floor hasn't turned to lava. These are implicite expectations. You are not fully aware of them, but they are there.
To see pure 'living in the now', have a look at some cases of extreme amnesia. It is a hugely distressing illness, as there is no continuity of experience.
The past and the future are what make a 'now' possible in the first place.
The difference is there is no self dwelling on it, no feedback loop of thoughts, or thinking more about it than what it simply is, which is a meeting next tuesday, and as a result of that I dont worry about it, or even the opposite, I dont say "ooh I cant wait for this meeting, its gonna go great".
This does not mean emotions get "neutered" btw, if anything emotions are more raw and clear with no self. Even anger is somewhat liberating. Not that Im angry person in general anyway, but if I was Id feel it more naturally. Im still the same person I was, its just a shift in perception that happens.Also, to expand on what I said "But wasn't your body just always in control of that self anyway? You just didn't know it yet."
Yes, your body was always in control. Before you were enlightened and now that you are enlightened. Your body doesn't really care if it's enlightened or not because it's always just in control and doing its thing.
I guess I agree with you a bit here, but im a still a little confused ,
.
My body doesnt really care, yes thats true, my brain feels free-er though so I would imagine this no self thing has been a relaxant somewhere in the brain, literally, as in less thoughts. So the only way I can say it is, the brain is content with no self. But even that doest make too much sense tbh.
Sorry I probably didnt really address what your saying there.
Interesting, someone ( who has been 'enlightened' about 4 months made a point to me recently )I'm pretty sure the enlightenment you are talking about and that of Buddhism or Thelema or whatever religion are different. Not that yours is not enlightenment, but just to be aware of the different usages.
Buddhists , Thelema enlightenment is the opposite to the way we did it. Basically pointing out that they spend their whole lives defusing beliefs theoretically and then eventually after years they see no self, that is true enlightenment. Whereas we see no self immediately but still have alot of beliefs to defuse. But it is said that these beliefs defuse very quickly with no self, i.e. months. So I think in one year I may come back with even deeper truer clearer enlightenment. And maybe then this will match up to the type of enlightenment you talk about (like its a competition lol
) 0 -
I think ill keep my stuff thanks:D, this is an example of the belief that a self is required for someone to be human. The stuff in my room belongs to me, this body, this body earned it. Do you think a dog is happy to give away his bone just because he does not believe in a self? Its not far off, its his possesion, hes not going to give it away. There is no higher energy or spirit or soul saying 'this is mine', its just a dog wanting his bone that he owns. What Im trying to say is , that no self does not mean not being a human being.
But belonging and owning is only something people do. I'm not saying there is a 'higher spirit' or whatever, but that things simply do belong to people. When I say 'me' I just mean this body-mind. Other people will have hugely different uses for the word 'me'. You are simply equating your use of 'me' with your body, and there's nothing wrong with that, but you can't excape calling things yours.
Dogs don't own bones. They will fight you for it if you try and take it directly off them. If you steal it off them and come back in a week, they won't think that you have returned "their" bone. They will just want the bone.If I tell you a story of my life I will be telling you everything that happened to this body as it grew up, there doesnt need to be a 'me', yes the word is handy because it identifies this body from your body or someone elses body but again there is no higher energy or controller that experienced it, just the brain. I went for a run the other day, my brain triggered signals to move my legs , there was no self controlling this. it was just happening. Try walking around yourself there and see is there honestly a 'you' deciding how you legs are going to move? Is there honestly a 'you' controlling that movement? Then tell the story of that 'walk around', and question was there really need for a 'you' to be in that story? Is it plausible to say that perhaps it was just your body doing that stuff?
Who/where/what is the 'you' that was walking yesterday? They don't exist any more! But you talk about it like it does. I'm afraid that is an illusion. But a very useful one!
The word does not only destinguish your body from others, but unites its experience of itself through time.I guess I agree with you a bit here, but im a still a little confused ,.
My body doesnt really care, yes thats true, my brain feels free-er though so I would imagine this no self thing has been a relaxant somewhere in the brain, literally, as in less thoughts. So the only way I can say it is, the brain is content with no self. But even that doest make too much sense tbh.
Sorry I probably didnt really address what your saying there.
Your body just does it's thing all the time, regardless of whether you think there's a self in control or not. I'm glad it's better for you having no self.
Just out of curiosity, do you believe that your body/mind is free? As in, not totally determined by the laws of nature? Basically, 'determinism'.Interesting, someone ( who has been 'enlightened' about 4 months made a point to me recently )
Buddhists , Thelema enlightenment is the opposite to the way we did it. Basically pointing out that they spend their whole lives defusing beliefs theoretically and then eventually after years they see no self, that is true enlightenment. Whereas we see no self immediately but still have alot of beliefs to defuse. But it is said that these beliefs defuse very quickly with no self, i.e. months. So I think in one year I may come back with even deeper truer clearer enlightenment. And maybe then this will match up to the type of enlightenment you talk about (like its a competition lol)
Also, the enlightenment of Zen Buddhism is said to be instantaneous upon realisation. It is not a process for them. Depnds on the school though, again.
It is so a competition! Too bad for you I'm already an Ascended Master. If you guess which one I'll send you prayers from the Ultrazone.0 -
-
IMO,The only difference there is that a humans memory is far more complex and simply better. Also dont forget , dogs bury bones and can find them again. But I shouldnt be using that argument because I know they forget about them most of the time. But my point is, our brain is able to say 'hey that was the bone I was playing with last week', a dog is simply too stupid to remember this.But belonging and owning is only something people do. I'm not saying there is a 'higher spirit' or whatever, but that things simply do belong to people. When I say 'me' I just mean this body-mind. Other people will have hugely different uses for the word 'me'. You are simply equating your use of 'me' with your body, and there's nothing wrong with that, but you can't excape calling things yours.
Dogs don't own bones. They will fight you for it if you try and take it directly off them. If you steal it off them and come back in a week, they won't think that you have returned "their" bone. They will just want the bone.
Re: escaping calling things mine, dont get me wrong, im not trying to escape that, I still use the word 'yours', in reference to the persons body.
I 100% agree with you here tbh. I was going to say to you 'but the past is irrelevant because it doesnt exist, it is just a memory', but you seem to have a true understanding of that already, I just didnt know you did. (no im not being condescending).Who/where/what is the 'you' that was walking yesterday? They don't exist any more! But you talk about it like it does. I'm afraid that is an illusion. But a very useful one!
The word does not only destinguish your body from others, but unites its experience of itself through time.
You saying this stuff is actually adding more clarity tbh. It helps! Because it is an illusion, just a conscious thought is all thats left. The only thing that exists is reality right now. Nothing else.
Maybe my belief of the past is one of those beliefs that still needs to be defused, but i dont think so , I am fully aware the past does not exist.
I dont believe in the laws of nature to be honest, I used to but not anymore, things just happen, existence happens and this brain is experiencing its existence. Things are not always conventionally 'correct' or 'incorrect'.
Your body just does it's thing all the time, regardless of whether you think there's a self in control or not. I'm glad it's better for you having no self.
Just out of curiosity, do you believe that your body/mind is free? As in, not totally determined by the laws of nature? Basically, 'determinism'.
I know very little about teachings tbh. As Ive said I was never into this before. I am aware that that school is saying that realisation is instant, but as far as im aware it seems to take them years to reach that point of instant realisation. What they do during those years, im not too sure.
Also, the enlightenment of Zen Buddhism is said to be instantaneous upon realisation. It is not a process for them. Depnds on the school though, again.
Tbh Im probably coming across as ignorant at this stage because I know very very little about Buddhism etc.It is so a competition! Too bad for you I'm already an Ascended Master. If you guess which one I'll send you prayers from the Ultrazone.
not too sure if your joking
your posts do help add clarity, im not sure if you see no self or not, I get the impression you dont see the self, but then you wouldnt debating it, or maybe you would I dont know.0 -
-
-
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyRE-78g_z0
This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement