Does God chastise with storms and natural disasters?

b318isp

Quo Vadis wrote: »

It is eternal darkness and death, as opposed to eternal life and love. Eternal punishment will consist of knowing every second for eternity that you choose to separate yourself from the infinite love and light of God and spend eternity in darkness separated from that eternal love, all because you thought you knew it all in your short limited confined life in this world, despite all the small subtle signs and clues he gave.

How do you know this?

b318isp

wolfsbane wrote: »

warn some to get right with God before its too late; kill others as punishment; take others home to heaven; change the plans of leaders; etc.

Suffering and death became our lot back then. How much of that comes to each of us, and when, is down to God's sovereign rule.

So much for an all loving and forgiving god.

Keylem

No, I don't think so.

b318isp wrote: »

So much for an all loving and forgiving god.

God IS loving and forgiving, We are the ones that are not. A parent chastises a child s/he loves if they do something bad, in order to teach a lesson - that is what a good parent is, God is no different!

Robert ninja

Keylem wrote: »

God IS loving and forgiving, We are the ones that are not. A parent chastises a child s/he loves if they do something bad, in order to teach a lesson - that is what a good parent is, God is no different!

Except god kills you and you're too dead to benifit from any 'lesson', and then subsequently torture you forever after death because... well because it can is the only justification given. And the god of the bible is not forgiving. I'm more moral, more just, more forgiving and loving than the god of the bible... and you know what? You are too along with most of the people on this forum.

Donatello

Keylem wrote: »

God IS loving and forgiving, We are the ones that are not. A parent chastises a child s/he loves if they do something bad, in order to teach a lesson - that is what a good parent is, God is no different!

Exactly. God chastised me personally. I won't go into the details, but God used my efforts to effectively turn away from Him to actually chastise me and leave a lasting legacy to remind me of what happened when I turned away from Him who is infinite love and goodness. Well, I say He did it, but in truth I actually did it myself! He merely permitted it.

Robert ninja wrote: »

Except god kills you and you're too dead to benifit from any 'lesson', and then subsequently torture you forever after death because... well because it can is the only justification given. And the god of the bible is not forgiving. I'm more moral, more just, more forgiving and loving than the god of the bible... and you know what? You are too along with most of the people on this forum.

There's a good, short, explanatory article on that point you raise here. Though at first glance it may not seem relevant, it is and I am sure you will gain some insight by reading it.

I wonder about God’s need to have us praise him. It’s in ... a lot of the Psalms. Sometimes it makes me think of God like an insecure Third World dictator who needs praise to make himself feel powerful.

Read more here.




(Loving the Gustave pictures Quo Vadis!)

I came up with a caption for the following picture: ''FINE. Be that way.'' ''Get lost!''

Morgans

Paddysnapper wrote: »

My God How true:rolleyes:

Thanks for the help in deepening my understanding.

I don't know enough to take any other lesson from the Noah bible story other than God has the power to chastise if God decides to. Even if that isnt the lesson, I'd like to know what is the lesson. Dont want to derail the thread on it.

b318isp

Keylem wrote: »

God IS loving and forgiving, We are the ones that are not. A parent chastises a child s/he loves if they do something bad, in order to teach a lesson - that is what a good parent is, God is no different!

Look at the language used in Wolfsbane's post. It sounds almost tyrannical.

Fanny Cradock

What part?

wolfsbane

No, I don't think so.

b318isp wrote: »

So much for an all loving and forgiving god.

Such a god is the invention of self-justifying men. The Bible does not present God as all-loving and forgiving. It presents Him as long-suffering with sinners, merciful to all who repent and believe, forgiving the vilest offender who does so.

But never excusing wickedness. He is infinitely holy and just - that is why in His love for His people He could not just ignore their sins. He had to send His Son pay for their sins, by dying a cursed death on the cross. Christ made atonement for their sins. So why should one think that the unrepentant wicked will get off scot-free?

***********************************************************************
1 Peter 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now


“ If the righteous one is scarcely saved,
Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

Festus

No, I don't think so.

wolfsbane wrote: »

Christ made atonement for their sins. So why should one think that the unrepentant wicked will get off scot-free?

Are you contradicting yourself? In " Do Protestants believe in Saints" you state that all Christians go straight to Jesus bosom upon death. Your statement in that thread did not exclude the unrepentant wicked Christians.

Why present a different opinion here?

Are you suggesting that they go straight to Jesus until the Judgement Day and then get sent to Hell?

philologos

Festus wrote: »

Are you contradicting yourself? In " Do Protestants believe in Saints" you state that all Christians go straight to Jesus bosom upon death. Your statement in that thread did not exclude the unrepentant wicked Christians.

The unrepentant and the wicked aren't Christians.

Christianity begins with repentance surely?

Festus

No, I don't think so.

Jakkass wrote: »

The unrepentant and the wicked aren't Christians.

Bit of a sweeping generalisation that.

What of the prodigals? Those born, raised or converts who decide to go off on their own and sow their wild oats. Do they cease to be Christian?
Did the original Prodigal cease to be Jewish? If so then why did he not have to become Jewish again before the fatted calf was killed for him.

Jakkass wrote: »

Christianity begins with repentance surely?

Does it really? So how then do Christian children repent? or are they not Christian until they repent? At what age can they do this?

If the unrepentant and the wicked are not Christians then the only Christians are the Catholics in good standing.

philologos

Festus wrote: »

What of the prodigals? Those born, raised or converts who decide to go off on their own and sow their wild oats. Do they cease to be Christian?
Did the original Prodigal cease to be Jewish? If so then why did he not have to become Jewish again before the fatted calf was killed for him.

If people reject God they have rejected Him. In order to be saved we need to believe in the life, death and Resurrection of Jesus. It is that point when you acknowledge your sin and repent before the Lord Jesus accept that you have done what is wrong and ask Him into your life that things begin to change forever.

It was when the Prodigal Son came home that His Father celebrated his homecoming, even if He had screwed up throughout his life. Indeed if you read the Prodigal Son carefully he also wished His Father dead! That's what asking for your inheritance money early said about how you regarded your father in the Middle East. He also ate from a swines trough, abominable because the pigs are unclean.

He lived a life away from His Father, but His Father welcomed Him home. Jesus tells us that the angelic host in heaven celebrate whenever a sinner repents. I.E when people repent turn their lives around and believe and trust in Him. I believe that is the point when someone becomes a Christian in earnest rather than just in name.

Festus wrote: »

Does it really? So how then do Christian children repent? or are they not Christian until they repent? At what age can they do this?

They repent of their sin and put their trust in the Lord Jesus. I was raised in a Christian family. I'm quite happy to say that I didn't live as a Christian and therefore I wasn't one. I don't delude myself into pretending I was one. It was when I understood what Jesus did on the cross. Most other concepts of god are based on the god being strong and mighty. Jesus Christ was strong precisely because He was made weak for us. When the crowds mocked Him to get off the cross, the irony was that Jesus was being strong in staying on it. It was through persevering the ridicule, and dying that Jesus ultimately conquered the grave.

We are conquerors through Him in that our old lives died with Him and we were born again into a new and living hope (Romans 6, 1 Peter 1:3).

The Gospel is the power of God for all those who believe, it is amazing and it is unparalleled in any other world religion. It is a love story like no other in which God comes down in human form and sheds His own living blood for us.

Festus

No, I don't think so.

Jakkass wrote: »

If people reject God they have rejected Him. In order to be saved we need to believe in the life, death and Resurrection of Jesus. It is that point when you acknowledge your sin and repent before the Lord Jesus accept that you have done what is wrong and ask Him into your life that things begin to change forever.

It was when the Prodigal Son came home that His Father celebrated his homecoming, even if He had screwed up throughout his life. Indeed if you read the Prodigal Son carefully he also wished His Father dead! That's what asking for your inheritance money early said about how you regarded your father in the Middle East. He also ate from a swines trough, abominable because the pigs are unclean.

He lived a life away from His Father, but His Father welcomed Him home. Jesus tells us that the angelic host in heaven celebrate whenever a sinner repents. I.E when people repent turn their lives around and believe and trust in Him. I believe that is the point when someone becomes a Christian in earnest rather than just in name.

That's not answering the question. When did he stop being Jewish.

Jakkass wrote: »

They repent of their sin and put their trust in the Lord Jesus. I was raised in a Christian family. I'm quite happy to say that I didn't live as a Christian and therefore I wasn't one. It was when I understood what Jesus did on the cross. Most other concepts of god are based on the god being strong and mighty. Jesus Christ was strong precisely because He was made weak for us. When the crowds mocked Him to get off the cross, the irony was that Jesus was being strong in staying on it. It was through persevering the ridicule, and dying that Jesus ultimately conquered the grave.

We are conquerors through Him in that our old lives died with Him and we were born again into a new and living hope (Romans 6, 1 Peter 1:3).

The Gospel is the power of God for all those who believe, it is amazing and it is unparalleled in any other world religion. It is a love story like no other in which God comes down in human form and sheds His own living blood for us.

That's not answering the question. At what age can a child do this?
And is a child of Christian parents not a Christian until they repent?

philologos

Festus wrote: »

That's not answering the question. When did he stop being Jewish.

Being Jewish is not the same thing as being Christian. Anyone can follow a set of rituals. What is different about Christianity is that it is based on a response to the raw truth about mankind. We are all sinners, we all deserve to go to hell (that was a tough one for me), but the Lord Jesus died in our place so that we don't have to. He offers to transform our lives through His death and Resurrection. If we don't accept this offer we cannot truly be said to be Christians. The transformation can't begin. We are still in our sinful natures. We are by no account Christians if we don't believe in Christianity.

Festus wrote: »

That's not answering the question. At what age can a child do this?
And is a child of Christian parents not a Christian until they repent

They are not a Christian until they believe in the Gospel. Belief in the Gospel requires some form of repentance and acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the sins of the world. If we are not able to do this I would certainly question if someone was a Christian.

I think any child could in theory do this, but in reality for a lot of people it tends to happen in their teenage years or later. I was 17 when I accepted Christ and what He had achieved for us on the cross, and I turned my life to Him.

Festus

No, I don't think so.

Jakkass wrote: »

Being Jewish is not the same thing as being Christian. Anyone can follow a set of rituals. What is different about Christianity is that it is based on a response to the raw truth about mankind. We are all sinners, we all deserve to go to hell (that was a tough one for me), but the Lord Jesus died in our place so that we don't have to. He offers to transform our lives through His death and Resurrection. If we don't accept this offer we cannot truly be said to be Christians. The transformation can't begin. We are still in our sinful natures. We are by no account Christians if we don't believe in Christianity.

That's still not answering the question. When did he stop being Jewish?

Jakkass wrote: »

They are not a Christian until they believe in the Gospel. Belief in the Gospel requires some form of repentance and acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the sins of the world. If we are not able to do this I would certainly question if someone was a Christian.

I think any child could in theory do this, but in reality for a lot of people it tends to happen in their teenage years or later. I was 17 when I accepted Christ and what He had achieved for us on the cross, and I turned my life to Him.

Almost an answer. So you are saying no one who dies before the age of 17 when they can accept Christ of their own free will gets into heaven. Have I got that right?

philologos

Festus wrote: »

That's still not answering the question. When did he stop being Jewish?

He didn't because being Jewish is an ethno-religious identity. You can be Jewish and completely disregard God's existence.

Christianity is patently different.

Festus wrote: »

Almost an answer. So you are saying no one who dies before the age of 17 when they can accept Christ of their own free will gets into heaven. Have I got that right?

I didn't say that 17 was an absolute figure by any means. People can come to faith at any stage earlier or later. Belief in Christianity means accepting that Jesus has died in your place on the cross. One could in theory do that at any stage. I was more stubborn than others :pac:

Donatello

Jakkass wrote: »

Belief in Christianity means accepting that Jesus has died in your place on the cross. One could in theory do that at any stage. I was more stubborn than others :pac:

Faith is more than just accepting that Jesus died in your place. It is also about trust in the infinite goodness and love of God.

al28283

I don't know.

serious question, although it might sound odd. What if we were to someday create a weather machine/ earthquake prevention or some other way of countering or reducing the devasting effects of natural disasters? would we be actually reducing gods ability to chastise us in this way?

Donatello

al28283 wrote: »

serious question, although it might sound odd. What if we were to someday create a weather machine/ earthquake prevention or some other way of countering or reducing the devasting effects of natural disasters? would we be actually reducing gods ability to chastise us in this way?

Go to bed.

al28283

I don't know.

Donatello wrote: »

Go to bed.

like i said, it's a serious question. People in the 14th century probably thought the Black Death was a form of punishment from god and we overcame that. So the more we as a species develop new ways to fight against these things are we effectively eroding away gods ability to punish us?

al28283

I don't know.

Donatello wrote: »

Go to bed.

Also, that response was pretty ignorant of you. Can't we have a discussion without passive agressive mockery?

Donatello

al28283 wrote: »

Also, that response was pretty ignorant of you. Can't we have a discussion without passive agressive mockery?

I apologise. I thought my use of made it clear it was just friendly banter. I am also up late, as you can see.

Man will never be able to prevent natural disasters or disease. Even if he could, he would destroy himself in other man-made ways. Note the men arrested in Cumbria today taking pictures of Sellafield. If that went up, we'd all know about it.

al28283

I don't know.

Donatello wrote: »

I apologise. I thought my use of made it clear it was just friendly banter. I am also up late, as you can see.

Man will never be able to prevent natural disasters or disease. Even if he could, he would destroy himself in other man-made ways. Note the men arrested in Cumbria today taking pictures of Sellafield. If that went up, we'd all know about it.

so you believe that no matter how far the human race advances, god will always find another way to punish us?

al28283

I don't know.

Donatello wrote: »

Even if he could, he would destroy himself in other man-made ways. Note the men arrested in Cumbria today taking pictures of Sellafield. If that went up, we'd all know about it.

This implies that these "man-made ways" such as these men in Cumbria you mention, is in some way an act of god and therefore these men, and by extension all men, have no control over our actions and are living purely by god's design. If that is the case, then whatever he is punishing us for is actually something he made us do.

zenno

I don't know.

I don't believe in the invisible man, and especially don't believe in an invisible man that can cause all these problems.

it seems to me that people just like to blame the invisible man for all their direct effects and bad building locations to cause most of these problems themselves.

why would you build a city on an earthquake fault line in the first place as most countries still do ?.

earthquakes/god do not kill people it's the buildings that kill people.

hurricanes and natural weather storms have always been here on this planet way way before we were here, if you are stupid enough to stand/stay in the location of an oncoming tornado well thats up to you. but to say a so-called invisible person does this to us all is narrow minded talk. and also an amazingly crazy notion.

so-called God does not chastise us. the planet does.

Donatello

zenno wrote: »

so-called God does not chastise us. the planet does.

If you read back through the thread you will perhaps find yourself in agreement with much of what you read, even from the Christians.

al28283

I don't know.

how about my question?

philologos

Donatello wrote: »

Faith is more than just accepting that Jesus died in your place. It is also about trust in the infinite goodness and love of God.

That's where repentance comes in. It is in accepting Christ's death and in turning away from your previous life that you can live afresh. You have died to your old self, and have been raised again to new life in Christ. That's a responsibility no doubt.

Although I had already said this in my previous posts.

Keylem

No, I don't think so.

For the Lord corrects those he loves, just as a father corrects a child in whom he delights. [Proverbs 3:12]

For the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as his child. [Hebrews 12:6]