Does God chastise with storms and natural disasters?

Donatello

You, however, whether natives or resident aliens, must keep my statutes and decrees forbidding all such abominations by which the previous inhabitants defiled the land; otherwise the land will vomit you out also for having defiled it, just as it vomited out the nations before you.
-- Leviticus 18

Some Christians say He does, others say He doesn't. What do you think? Vote in the poll and comment if you like. Results of the poll are public.

Fanny Cradock

We have recently had a thread on this

BrianCalgary

I don't know.

In my humble opinion, God has control over everything and can step in at anytime.
However, we choose to deny Him, His sovereignty and even His existence. So God stands back and allows nature to take it's course.

That nature of course is to run down. If the world were to turn back to God, He would honour that choice and get the world running as it was created to do.

Unfortunately though it isn't going to happen. Revelation tells us that the universe will run down and that God will create a new heaven and a new Earth that will last forever.

Floodzie

I don't know.

Donatello wrote: »

Some Christians say He does, others say He doesn't. What do you think? Vote in the poll and comment if you like. Results of the poll are public.

Your question presupposes that a god exists. There has never been any proof that he does, so to further speculate that he (or she) might chastise with natural disasters is a bridge too far.

But let's say he does exist, why then wouldn't a god not just speak loudly from the heavens, old testament style, to all of humanity and tell us to behave? It would be a lot more effective than using very bad weather - bad weather which also occurs with as much regularity on other, similar non-inhabited planets.

But of course, if God (or indeed anything supernatural) could be unambiguously proven to exist, then James Randi's One Million Dollar Prize would be claimed - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi_Educational_Foundation#The_One_Million_Dollar_Paranormal_Challenge

As the unclaimed prize is proof that nothing even slightly supernatural has ever been shown to exist, I have to jump off the speculative train long before we even get close to something as logic-defying and complicated as a god.

Peace!

Floodzie

I don't know.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

In my humble opinion, God has control over everything and can step in at anytime.
However, we choose to deny Him, His sovereignty and even His existence. So God stands back and allows nature to take it's course.

That's a pretty poor argument, my friend. It's like saying 'A big pink bunny didn't prevent the earthquake off Japan, because we refused to believe in him.'

There is as much proof for the bunny as there is for god, using your argument.

Floodzie

I don't know.

Floodzie wrote: »

That's a pretty poor argument, my friend. It's like saying 'A big pink bunny didn't prevent the earthquake off Japan, because we refused to believe in him.'

There is as much proof for the bunny as there is for god, using your argument.

Hmmm... using an argument by analogy (a standard technique when making an argument) has resulted in me receiving an infraction.

Can someone explain why? Is my argument offensive somehow?

No offense was intended, but I would like to hear a proper refutation of my argument.

Robert ninja

BrianCalgary wrote: »

In my humble opinion, God has control over everything and can step in at anytime.
However, we choose to deny Him, His sovereignty and even His existence. So God stands back and allows nature to take it's course.

A few things on this. Why would a god design the world to be dangerous just so it can stop it from being dangerous when it's happy with people actions? That seems SO made up.

Some people believe that it CAUSES the catastrophes when it is displeased rather than just not standing in to help the ones that it pre-set to happen just in case it was angry and would then not need to make one happen since it would do a classic, 'Here's one I made earlier!'

Unfortuneatly being intelligent and more realistic that it would just make bad things happen when it's angry only makes it more of an asshole, too. So it's either stupid, weird and probably made up... or a prick(and still probably made up). Awesome.

And to that last sentence there... step back and watch nature take its course? Remember, this god supposedly designed nature so it's not stepping back and just letting it happen as if it has no responsibility what so ever. I could just go ahead and strap down the acceleration on this thing and leave it heading towards a children's playground and IF they're good I'll stop it but if they defy me I'll just step back and let the machine take it's course with my hands still clean and my judgement just, right?

@Floodzie There's a spoonfull of troll in your posts.

Morbert

Floodzie wrote: »

Hmmm... using an argument by analogy (a standard technique when making an argument) has resulted in me receiving an infraction.

Can someone explain why? Is my argument offensive somehow?

No offense was intended, but I would like to hear a proper refutation of my argument.

While I'm not trying to backseat-mod, I would say it is because it's off-topic. BrianCalgary was not presenting an argument for the existence of God, as the thread is not about the existence of God.

philologos

Others say its not quite as clear cut. I think God has chastised with natural disasters but not in every case.

JimiTime

Jakkass wrote: »

Others say its not quite as clear cut. I think God has chastised with natural disasters but not in every case.

Biblically speaking, doesn't a direct judgement usually come with a prophetic warning beforehand? The world seems rife with hindsight 'prophets'. 'Oh yeah, that WAS a divine judgement that just happened'.

I think of direct judgement in terms of Jonah and Nineveh. I think thats a good benchmark to use.

PDN

This subject is not just hypothetical for me. Two days ago I was in SE Tennessee and got caught in the worst tornados the South has experienced since records began.

While spending an afternoon hiding in a basement was an interesting experience, no, I don't think it was a judgement or chastisement.

Floodzie

I don't know.

snip!

chalkitdown

I don't know.

(snip!)

nelly17

I don't know.

There are fairly sound proven scientific facts as to the occurance of storms, simarly natural disasters take the Japan Earth Quake recently it was widely known that the potential was there and why.

I dont think something comes compleatly out of the blue with no scientific reason as to how it could have occured in this day and age.

b318isp

If he does punish by natural disasters that it seems very unfair to those who are innocent, and neither loving or forgiving.

PDN

Moderating Instruction

Let's keep this on topic guys.

Discussion of moderating, atheist trolling etc. will be infracted.

chalkitdown

I don't know.

PDN; your definition of troll is sadly lacking. If you don't want to accept comment please prevent these provocative and in my opinion, juvenile posts from appearing on the front page.

Quo Vadis

I don't know.

Nature has to get on with it's Business.

God gives us free will, and each of us decides our own fate depending on how we exercise that free will, including where we choose to live.

Floodzie

I don't know.

Wow, I've been on boards for years and I get 2 infractions and a few censored posts in the same day... must be one of those days.

Ok, I'll try and write this without 'trolling', although I don't think offering uncountered on-topic opinions is trolling. But there we differ.

So here is my 2 cents, summarised as best I can:

When an opinion is offered as a fact, and then another opinion is then added to that first and also called a fact, it is not a strong argument.

I hope that doesn't upset anyone. I am interested in arguing (this is, after all, the purpose of a site like this) and would love to hear some genuine counter-arguments to the above statement. I enjoy discussion, argument, call it what you will, but it is done for the purpose of enjoyable enquiry.

Thanks!

Donatello

Floodzie wrote: »

Wow, I've been on boards for years and I get 2 infractions and a few censored posts in the same day... must be one of those days.

Ok, I'll try and write this without 'trolling', although I don't think offering uncountered on-topic opinions is trolling. But there we differ.

So here is my 2 cents, summarised as best I can:

When an opinion is offered as a fact, and then another opinion is then added to that first and also called a fact, it is not a strong argument.

I hope that doesn't upset anyone. I am interested in arguing (this is, after all, the purpose of a site like this) and would love to hear some genuine counter-arguments to the above statement. I enjoy discussion, argument, call it what you will, but it is done for the purpose of enjoyable enquiry.

Thanks!

This point of this thread is not to discuss whether or not God exists, but to discuss the issues surrounding whether He does or does not chastise with natural disasters. This is a discussion primarily among Christians, although non-Christians are welcome to make respectful comment, bearing in mind my clear intentions for this thread.

Floodzie

I don't know.

Donatello wrote: »

Exactly. I started this thread with a view to a discussion among Christians, not to be hijacked by a narrow group of militant atheists. Non-Christians are welcome to make comment, but they shall do so with respect or not at all.

I am a former religious person (I was an altar boy and a commited and diligent Catholic for most of my life - how many of you have pilgrimaged to the Holy Land?). I am always interested in still hearing the opinions of religious people - the reason why I was intrigued by the original post and came to this board.

I am definitely not a 'militant atheist', I think the fabric of humanity is best sewn with some religosity.

Peace all!

Floodzie

I don't know.

Donatello wrote: »

This point of this thread is not to discuss whether or not God exists

Ok, so let's move on to the second part of my earlier post:


"But let's say he does exist, why then wouldn't a god not just speak loudly from the heavens, old testament style, to all of humanity and tell us to behave? It would be a lot more effective than using very bad weather - bad weather which also occurs with as much regularity on other, similar non-inhabited planets."

I would love to hear your arguments.

Peace and love.

Morgans

Is the Noah story proof to christians (should declare that i'm not here) that God does chastise? Or the plague of locusts etc?

BrianCalgary

I don't know.

Floodzie wrote: »

Ok, so let's move on to the second part of my earlier post:


"But let's say he does exist, why then wouldn't a god not just speak loudly from the heavens, old testament style, to all of humanity and tell us to behave? It would be a lot more effective than using very bad weather - bad weather which also occurs with as much regularity on other, similar non-inhabited planets."

I would love to hear your arguments.

Peace and love.

The point being Floodzie, this thread is not about the existence of God, but whether or not said God punishes through natural disasters. If you want to discuss the existence of God start your own thread, do not hijack this one.

Floodzie

I don't know.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

The point being Floodzie, this thread is not about the existence of God, but whether or not said God punishes through natural disasters. If you want to discuss the existence of God start your own thread, do not hijack this one.

Which is why I posted this "But let's say he does exist, why then wouldn't a god not just speak loudly from the heavens, old testament style, to all of humanity and tell us to behave? It would be a lot more effective than using very bad weather - bad weather which also occurs with as much regularity on other, similar non-inhabited planets."

As you can see, I disagree with "whether or not said God punishes through natural disasters" - the question raised at the beginning of this thread.

So what now is your opinion on my statement above? Do you agree or disagree, and why?

Thanks in advance!

Quo Vadis

I don't know.

Floodzie wrote: »

Which is why I posted this "But let's say he does exist, why then wouldn't a god not just speak loudly from the heavens, old testament style, to all of humanity and tell us to behave? It would be a lot more effective than using very bad weather - bad weather which also occurs with as much regularity on other, similar non-inhabited planets."

As you can see, I disagree with "whether or not said God punishes through natural disasters" - the question raised at the beginning of this thread.

So what now is your opinion on my statement above? Do you agree or disagree, and why?

Thanks in advance!

Ok, because this is not really the right thread I'll keep it short.

There is no irrefutable proof God does or does not exist.

Nature has to get on with it's own business.

God gives us free will, and each of us decides our own fate depending on how we exercise that free will, including where and how we choose to live on this earth.

The whole point of God granting us free will to choose to have faith and believe or not, is so that our love for him is sincere and freely chosen, not forced. That's what any loving parent wants from their children, not a type of forced pretend love. As we have developed as a race, God has no need to teach us the very basic lessons he taught us in the old testament, where in any case he only revealed his presence to a few. This world is a test and learning experience for the next, if we were all given definate proof that God existed, what would be the point of this world ? Having heaven on earth would be pointless. God is a spirt. Being in heaven is being in the presence of God. We only know a tiny fraction about this universe/multiverse/dimension.

Quo Vadis

Quo Vadis wrote: »

The whole point of God granting us free will to choose to have faith and believe or not, is so that our love for him is sincere and freely chosen, not forced. That's what any loving parent wants from their children, not a type of forced pretend love.

I know this is off-topic, but...

That's a terribly flawed analogy.

If a child chooses not to love a parent, that parent isn't going to condemn their child to an eternity of suffering and torture for their choice. Offering eternal, infinite pain for choosing not to love a parent is hardly giving the child an unforced choice, is it?

Your analogy, along with the entire concept, is nothing but ridiculous, really.

Paddysnapper

I don't know.

Morgans wrote: »

Is the Noah story proof to christians (should declare that i'm not here) that God does chastise? Or the plague of locusts etc?

My God How true:rolleyes:

ArtSmart

No, I don't think so.

There is little doubt that God is chastising humanity.

just cos it happens to be poor humans with flimsy homes made of flimsy material, doesn't make it less so. (occasionally he chastises the better off people, but mostly the poor)

it's a sin to be poor.



oh, and dumb.


it's a real sin to be very, very dumb.

wolfsbane

No, I don't think so.

ArtSmart wrote: »

There is little doubt that God is chastising humanity.

just cos it happens to be poor humans with flimsy homes made of flimsy material, doesn't make it less so. (occasionally he chastises the better off people, but mostly the poor)

it's a sin to be poor.



oh, and dumb.


it's a real sin to be very, very dumb.

Disasters may have multiple purposes: warn some to get right with God before its too late; kill others as punishment; take others home to heaven; change the plans of leaders; etc. There is no direct relationship between disasters and punishment for all.

The only thing that applies to us all in this is the general suffering that comes on mankind due to the Fall. Suffering and death became our lot back then. How much of that comes to each of us, and when, is down to God's sovereign rule.

***************************************************************************
Luke 13:1 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”

Quo Vadis

I don't know.

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

I know this is off-topic, but...

That's a terribly flawed analogy.

If a child chooses not to love a parent, that parent isn't going to condemn their child to an eternity of suffering and torture for their choice. Offering eternal, infinite pain for choosing not to love a parent is hardly giving the child an unforced choice, is it?

Your analogy, along with the entire concept, is nothing but ridiculous, really.

You are entitled to your beliefs, but I am also entitled to mine.

It's always difficult to describe a metaphysical concept in physical terms.

God doesn't leave you, you have to freely choose to leave and reject God. Primarily hell is the eternal separation from the infinite love and light of God. It is eternal darkness and death, as opposed to eternal life and love. Eternal punishment will consist of knowing every second for eternity that you choose to separate yourself from the infinite love and light of God and spend eternity in darkness separated from that eternal love, all because you thought you knew it all in your short limited confined life in this world, despite all the small subtle signs and clues he gave.

b318isp

Quo Vadis wrote: »

It is eternal darkness and death, as opposed to eternal life and love. Eternal punishment will consist of knowing every second for eternity that you choose to separate yourself from the infinite love and light of God and spend eternity in darkness separated from that eternal love, all because you thought you knew it all in your short limited confined life in this world, despite all the small subtle signs and clues he gave.

How do you know this?

b318isp

wolfsbane wrote: »

warn some to get right with God before its too late; kill others as punishment; take others home to heaven; change the plans of leaders; etc.

Suffering and death became our lot back then. How much of that comes to each of us, and when, is down to God's sovereign rule.

So much for an all loving and forgiving god.

Keylem

No, I don't think so.

b318isp wrote: »

So much for an all loving and forgiving god.

God IS loving and forgiving, We are the ones that are not. A parent chastises a child s/he loves if they do something bad, in order to teach a lesson - that is what a good parent is, God is no different!

Robert ninja

Keylem wrote: »

God IS loving and forgiving, We are the ones that are not. A parent chastises a child s/he loves if they do something bad, in order to teach a lesson - that is what a good parent is, God is no different!

Except god kills you and you're too dead to benifit from any 'lesson', and then subsequently torture you forever after death because... well because it can is the only justification given. And the god of the bible is not forgiving. I'm more moral, more just, more forgiving and loving than the god of the bible... and you know what? You are too along with most of the people on this forum.

Donatello

Keylem wrote: »

God IS loving and forgiving, We are the ones that are not. A parent chastises a child s/he loves if they do something bad, in order to teach a lesson - that is what a good parent is, God is no different!

Exactly. God chastised me personally. I won't go into the details, but God used my efforts to effectively turn away from Him to actually chastise me and leave a lasting legacy to remind me of what happened when I turned away from Him who is infinite love and goodness. Well, I say He did it, but in truth I actually did it myself! He merely permitted it.

Robert ninja wrote: »

Except god kills you and you're too dead to benifit from any 'lesson', and then subsequently torture you forever after death because... well because it can is the only justification given. And the god of the bible is not forgiving. I'm more moral, more just, more forgiving and loving than the god of the bible... and you know what? You are too along with most of the people on this forum.

There's a good, short, explanatory article on that point you raise here. Though at first glance it may not seem relevant, it is and I am sure you will gain some insight by reading it.

I wonder about God’s need to have us praise him. It’s in ... a lot of the Psalms. Sometimes it makes me think of God like an insecure Third World dictator who needs praise to make himself feel powerful.

Read more here.




(Loving the Gustave pictures Quo Vadis!)

I came up with a caption for the following picture: ''FINE. Be that way.'' ''Get lost!''

Morgans

Paddysnapper wrote: »

My God How true:rolleyes:

Thanks for the help in deepening my understanding.

I don't know enough to take any other lesson from the Noah bible story other than God has the power to chastise if God decides to. Even if that isnt the lesson, I'd like to know what is the lesson. Dont want to derail the thread on it.

b318isp

Keylem wrote: »

God IS loving and forgiving, We are the ones that are not. A parent chastises a child s/he loves if they do something bad, in order to teach a lesson - that is what a good parent is, God is no different!

Look at the language used in Wolfsbane's post. It sounds almost tyrannical.

Fanny Cradock

What part?

wolfsbane

No, I don't think so.

b318isp wrote: »

So much for an all loving and forgiving god.

Such a god is the invention of self-justifying men. The Bible does not present God as all-loving and forgiving. It presents Him as long-suffering with sinners, merciful to all who repent and believe, forgiving the vilest offender who does so.

But never excusing wickedness. He is infinitely holy and just - that is why in His love for His people He could not just ignore their sins. He had to send His Son pay for their sins, by dying a cursed death on the cross. Christ made atonement for their sins. So why should one think that the unrepentant wicked will get off scot-free?

***********************************************************************
1 Peter 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now


“ If the righteous one is scarcely saved,
Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

Festus

No, I don't think so.

wolfsbane wrote: »

Christ made atonement for their sins. So why should one think that the unrepentant wicked will get off scot-free?

Are you contradicting yourself? In " Do Protestants believe in Saints" you state that all Christians go straight to Jesus bosom upon death. Your statement in that thread did not exclude the unrepentant wicked Christians.

Why present a different opinion here?

Are you suggesting that they go straight to Jesus until the Judgement Day and then get sent to Hell?

philologos

Festus wrote: »

Are you contradicting yourself? In " Do Protestants believe in Saints" you state that all Christians go straight to Jesus bosom upon death. Your statement in that thread did not exclude the unrepentant wicked Christians.

The unrepentant and the wicked aren't Christians.

Christianity begins with repentance surely?

Festus

No, I don't think so.

Jakkass wrote: »

The unrepentant and the wicked aren't Christians.

Bit of a sweeping generalisation that.

What of the prodigals? Those born, raised or converts who decide to go off on their own and sow their wild oats. Do they cease to be Christian?
Did the original Prodigal cease to be Jewish? If so then why did he not have to become Jewish again before the fatted calf was killed for him.

Jakkass wrote: »

Christianity begins with repentance surely?

Does it really? So how then do Christian children repent? or are they not Christian until they repent? At what age can they do this?

If the unrepentant and the wicked are not Christians then the only Christians are the Catholics in good standing.

philologos

Festus wrote: »

What of the prodigals? Those born, raised or converts who decide to go off on their own and sow their wild oats. Do they cease to be Christian?
Did the original Prodigal cease to be Jewish? If so then why did he not have to become Jewish again before the fatted calf was killed for him.

If people reject God they have rejected Him. In order to be saved we need to believe in the life, death and Resurrection of Jesus. It is that point when you acknowledge your sin and repent before the Lord Jesus accept that you have done what is wrong and ask Him into your life that things begin to change forever.

It was when the Prodigal Son came home that His Father celebrated his homecoming, even if He had screwed up throughout his life. Indeed if you read the Prodigal Son carefully he also wished His Father dead! That's what asking for your inheritance money early said about how you regarded your father in the Middle East. He also ate from a swines trough, abominable because the pigs are unclean.

He lived a life away from His Father, but His Father welcomed Him home. Jesus tells us that the angelic host in heaven celebrate whenever a sinner repents. I.E when people repent turn their lives around and believe and trust in Him. I believe that is the point when someone becomes a Christian in earnest rather than just in name.

Festus wrote: »

Does it really? So how then do Christian children repent? or are they not Christian until they repent? At what age can they do this?

They repent of their sin and put their trust in the Lord Jesus. I was raised in a Christian family. I'm quite happy to say that I didn't live as a Christian and therefore I wasn't one. I don't delude myself into pretending I was one. It was when I understood what Jesus did on the cross. Most other concepts of god are based on the god being strong and mighty. Jesus Christ was strong precisely because He was made weak for us. When the crowds mocked Him to get off the cross, the irony was that Jesus was being strong in staying on it. It was through persevering the ridicule, and dying that Jesus ultimately conquered the grave.

We are conquerors through Him in that our old lives died with Him and we were born again into a new and living hope (Romans 6, 1 Peter 1:3).

The Gospel is the power of God for all those who believe, it is amazing and it is unparalleled in any other world religion. It is a love story like no other in which God comes down in human form and sheds His own living blood for us.

Festus

No, I don't think so.

Jakkass wrote: »

If people reject God they have rejected Him. In order to be saved we need to believe in the life, death and Resurrection of Jesus. It is that point when you acknowledge your sin and repent before the Lord Jesus accept that you have done what is wrong and ask Him into your life that things begin to change forever.

It was when the Prodigal Son came home that His Father celebrated his homecoming, even if He had screwed up throughout his life. Indeed if you read the Prodigal Son carefully he also wished His Father dead! That's what asking for your inheritance money early said about how you regarded your father in the Middle East. He also ate from a swines trough, abominable because the pigs are unclean.

He lived a life away from His Father, but His Father welcomed Him home. Jesus tells us that the angelic host in heaven celebrate whenever a sinner repents. I.E when people repent turn their lives around and believe and trust in Him. I believe that is the point when someone becomes a Christian in earnest rather than just in name.

That's not answering the question. When did he stop being Jewish.

Jakkass wrote: »

They repent of their sin and put their trust in the Lord Jesus. I was raised in a Christian family. I'm quite happy to say that I didn't live as a Christian and therefore I wasn't one. It was when I understood what Jesus did on the cross. Most other concepts of god are based on the god being strong and mighty. Jesus Christ was strong precisely because He was made weak for us. When the crowds mocked Him to get off the cross, the irony was that Jesus was being strong in staying on it. It was through persevering the ridicule, and dying that Jesus ultimately conquered the grave.

We are conquerors through Him in that our old lives died with Him and we were born again into a new and living hope (Romans 6, 1 Peter 1:3).

The Gospel is the power of God for all those who believe, it is amazing and it is unparalleled in any other world religion. It is a love story like no other in which God comes down in human form and sheds His own living blood for us.

That's not answering the question. At what age can a child do this?
And is a child of Christian parents not a Christian until they repent?

philologos

Festus wrote: »

That's not answering the question. When did he stop being Jewish.

Being Jewish is not the same thing as being Christian. Anyone can follow a set of rituals. What is different about Christianity is that it is based on a response to the raw truth about mankind. We are all sinners, we all deserve to go to hell (that was a tough one for me), but the Lord Jesus died in our place so that we don't have to. He offers to transform our lives through His death and Resurrection. If we don't accept this offer we cannot truly be said to be Christians. The transformation can't begin. We are still in our sinful natures. We are by no account Christians if we don't believe in Christianity.

Festus wrote: »

That's not answering the question. At what age can a child do this?
And is a child of Christian parents not a Christian until they repent

They are not a Christian until they believe in the Gospel. Belief in the Gospel requires some form of repentance and acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the sins of the world. If we are not able to do this I would certainly question if someone was a Christian.

I think any child could in theory do this, but in reality for a lot of people it tends to happen in their teenage years or later. I was 17 when I accepted Christ and what He had achieved for us on the cross, and I turned my life to Him.

Festus

No, I don't think so.

Jakkass wrote: »

Being Jewish is not the same thing as being Christian. Anyone can follow a set of rituals. What is different about Christianity is that it is based on a response to the raw truth about mankind. We are all sinners, we all deserve to go to hell (that was a tough one for me), but the Lord Jesus died in our place so that we don't have to. He offers to transform our lives through His death and Resurrection. If we don't accept this offer we cannot truly be said to be Christians. The transformation can't begin. We are still in our sinful natures. We are by no account Christians if we don't believe in Christianity.

That's still not answering the question. When did he stop being Jewish?

Jakkass wrote: »

They are not a Christian until they believe in the Gospel. Belief in the Gospel requires some form of repentance and acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the sins of the world. If we are not able to do this I would certainly question if someone was a Christian.

I think any child could in theory do this, but in reality for a lot of people it tends to happen in their teenage years or later. I was 17 when I accepted Christ and what He had achieved for us on the cross, and I turned my life to Him.

Almost an answer. So you are saying no one who dies before the age of 17 when they can accept Christ of their own free will gets into heaven. Have I got that right?

philologos

Festus wrote: »

That's still not answering the question. When did he stop being Jewish?

He didn't because being Jewish is an ethno-religious identity. You can be Jewish and completely disregard God's existence.

Christianity is patently different.

Festus wrote: »

Almost an answer. So you are saying no one who dies before the age of 17 when they can accept Christ of their own free will gets into heaven. Have I got that right?

I didn't say that 17 was an absolute figure by any means. People can come to faith at any stage earlier or later. Belief in Christianity means accepting that Jesus has died in your place on the cross. One could in theory do that at any stage. I was more stubborn than others :pac:

Donatello

Jakkass wrote: »

Belief in Christianity means accepting that Jesus has died in your place on the cross. One could in theory do that at any stage. I was more stubborn than others :pac:

Faith is more than just accepting that Jesus died in your place. It is also about trust in the infinite goodness and love of God.

al28283

I don't know.

serious question, although it might sound odd. What if we were to someday create a weather machine/ earthquake prevention or some other way of countering or reducing the devasting effects of natural disasters? would we be actually reducing gods ability to chastise us in this way?

Donatello

al28283 wrote: »

serious question, although it might sound odd. What if we were to someday create a weather machine/ earthquake prevention or some other way of countering or reducing the devasting effects of natural disasters? would we be actually reducing gods ability to chastise us in this way?

Go to bed.