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Not getting served because with an underager

  • 28-04-2011 5:45pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12


    Today I went to Lidl. It's my 18th birthday and I wanted to buy some alcohol.
    I went up to the counter with my 15 year old sister and the man refused to sell me the alcohol because my sister was underage.
    I mean come on, I'm 18 why cant I buy it. He told me if my parents were there it would be fine but I'm 18, I'm an adult, They're not responsible for me. :eek:

    Is this an actual Law? Would it be the same story if I walked up with my 10 year old brother? :mad:
    Tagged:


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Happy birthday!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Fair play to them. Unfortunate for op though. Thankfully, alcohol isn't in short supply in this country though.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 370 ✭✭bath handle


    Make a complaint to the equality authority. It is discrimination on the grounds of age and possibly, marital status.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭234


    and possibly, marital status.

    If only he had been married they would have served him...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Make a complaint to the equality authority. It is discrimination on the grounds of age and possibly, marital status.

    How exactly? It's discrimination on the grounds of company.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    234 wrote: »
    If only he had been married they would have served him...
    I think he is a she.

    So are you advocating some sort of incest ridden lesbian wedding just in order to buy Aldi's alcohol?

    Happy Birthday OP


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,533 ✭✭✭Daniel S


    Zambia wrote: »
    I think he is a she.

    So are you advocating some sort of incest ridden lesbian wedding just in order to buy Aldi's alcohol?

    Happy Birthday OP

    No, it was Lidl's alcohol she was looking for.





    :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 572 ✭✭✭Chnandler Bong


    Zambia wrote: »
    some sort of incest ridden lesbian wedding
    I lol'd :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    They were right not to serve you as it was resonable to assume the alcohol was being purchased on behalf of a minor which is an offence under the intoxicating liqour act.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    amcalester wrote: »
    They were right not to serve you as it was resonable to assume the alcohol was being purchased on behalf of a minor which is an offence under the intoxicating liqour act.
    Nice answer.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,984 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Page 10/11 here:
    http://www.rrai.ie/_fileupload/Training%20Manuals/RRAI_Training_Manual%20(2).pdf
    and seeing as this document is based on law one would assume theres something in the law saying it also.

    OH and happy birthday!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭234


    Zambia wrote: »
    I think he is a she.

    So are you advocating some sort of incest ridden lesbian wedding just in order to buy Aldi's alcohol?

    Happy Birthday OP

    No, but if you happened to be holding that sort of wedding you would probably need all the ALDI alcohol you could get. I agree with k_mac, the sales assistant did not say we will not sell to ou because you are 18 and not 21, they said it was because his/her sister was with them and was probably assuming that he/she was buying for the sister.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 155 ✭✭Muas Tenek


    NormaJean wrote: »
    I went up to the counter with my 15 year old sister and the man refused to sell me the alcohol because my sister was underage.
    I mean come on, I'm 18 why cant I buy it. He told me if my parents were there it would be fine but I'm 18, I'm an adult, They're not responsible for me.
    Can I just give the viewpoint of the man.
    A friend of mine works in an off-licence where the policy is to check the id's of people who look under 23.
    His take on this is that the policy of the company is there to protect him and the customer - and this is why:

    If he breaks company policy he will get a reprimand - worst case scenario he will be fired - in which case he goes on the dole for a while and tries to find another job - his family suffers a little bit, but they will get through it.

    If he breaks the law he faces heavy fines, possibly jail, at least a criminal record - no dole, no prospects of a job - his family will probably not survive the trauma.

    Which would you choose.

    I apologize if this post contains shock value but it is true

    Happy birthday and many happy returns

    Muas


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,320 ✭✭✭roast


    amcalester wrote: »
    They were right not to serve you as it was resonable to assume the alcohol was being purchased on behalf of a minor which is an offence under the intoxicating liqour act.

    This. Which is totally fair enough IMO.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 587 ✭✭✭stacexD


    Lidl are terrible when it comes to ID. I was in there a couple of weeks ago buying quite a bit of drink for rag week, with my dad who is 49. My dad was standing right there with me and i was paying with my laser card (which kinda says im 18 anyways?) and while putting in my pin he asked me for ID. My dad thought it was fairly ridiculous but, fair enough.
    In the same lidl I was asked for ID and gave them my passport, which was only got last year I look the exact same in the picture as I do now. The woman serving told me it wasnt my passport. I showed her my student card with a picture and name on it and offered to pay with my laser card. She said they aren't forms of ID and refused to serve me.
    Then in aldi a couple of weeks ago myself and 2 friends were buying cocktails. My friend was 1st shes 22 and looks her age, they asked for ID and said her license wasnt enough. My friend went next and asked could he buy the cocktail she was refused (which was the last one left in the shop too) they said no. Then I was last, youngest of the lot and didn't even get asked for ID.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,300 ✭✭✭freyners


    never had any hassle with id in lidl or in any other shop besides dunnes where they dont accept driving licenses. Silly having your sister beside OP really...it looks suspicious enough


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 630 ✭✭✭big_show


    I was under the impression that once OP bought the Alcohol, it would be him that would held responsible if he gave it to the minor and not lidl's?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    big_show wrote: »
    I was under the impression that once OP bought the Alcohol, it would be him that would held responsible if he gave it to the minor and not lidl's?

    Legally yes. But having a group of teenagers drinking cans out of your stores bags will damage the stores reputation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,906 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    k_mac wrote: »
    Legally yes. But having a group of teenagers drinking cans out of your stores bags will damage the stores reputation.
    Legally, the store is also responsible:
    31(2) - The holder of a licence of any licensed premises shall not sell or deliver or permit any person to sell or deliver intoxicating liquor to any person for consumption off his licensed premises by a person under the age of 18 years in any place other than a private residence.
    Like a huge amount of the alcohol legislation in this country, it's an utterly stupid and completely impractical approach.

    OP, the guy was right to not serve you if he suspected the alcohol was for your sister. He's at risk of receiving a £300 fine (for a first offence) and/or losing his job. It's a stupid law, but it is the law

    The reason it would have been ok if your parents were there is because under-18s are allowed drink when in a private residence with their parent's permission.

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 292 ✭✭Resend


    k_mac wrote: »
    How exactly? It's discrimination on the grounds of company.
    would that be indirect discrimination?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 365 ✭✭shofukan


    stacexD wrote: »
    i was paying with my laser card (which kinda says im 18 anyways?)
    1: It's not a photo ID
    2: I've had a laser card since I was 16, hardly a proof of age is it?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 365 ✭✭shofukan


    I would assume that discrimination based on race, cultural background, nationality in a matter like this would be serious. And would certainly warrant being chased up. If it was something as trivial as 'You're short. Therefore you're underage, I'm not serving you.' There might be just a little bit of an issue!

    Not getting served 'cause you might be buying for that 15 year old beside you isn't really an issue.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,303 ✭✭✭source


    It's not discimination it's the law, OP went in to buy drink with their 15 year old sister. If the shop believes the alcohol is for the sister they can refuse to serve.

    A little advice on this matter would go much further than misinformation about discrimination.

    OP if you're over 18 and going to buy alcohol, then do so without someone younger in tow, and always carry ID. I'm 28 with a seriously receeding hairline (I look more than my age) and I always carry ID. And I have been asked a number of times.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭234


    Resend wrote: »
    would that be indirect discrimination?

    No, indirect discrimination is where a rule or policy is not ostensibly based on any discriminatory criteria but in effect is. E.g. a requirement that all potential employees must be 6'2''. While there is no obvious discrimination, in effect it would discriminate against women who are naturally shorter than men.
    In the OPs situation they refused to sell to them because they suspected that they were buying for their sister (probably). So the ostensible reason is that they have this suspicion. In effect it means that the OP cannot get the drink but there is still no discriminaiton in effect. It's not like only women/unmarried people/asian people/disabled people/etc bring siblings with them to buy drink.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,753 ✭✭✭qz


    I worked in O'Brien's off license for a while OP and the shop was totally within their rights not to serve you on the possibility that you would be supplying the alcohol to the underager.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    if its the case that they refused the op because they believed that they were supplying an underage person, then if thats not the actual case, has the shop assistant defamed the op of accusing them of attempting to act in an illegal manner?

    by the same token do they refuse parents who are with children?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭paky


    NormaJean wrote: »
    Today I went to Lidl. It's my 18th birthday and I wanted to buy some alcohol.
    I went up to the counter with my 15 year old sister and the man refused to sell me the alcohol because my sister was underage.
    I mean come on, I'm 18 why cant I buy it. He told me if my parents were there it would be fine but I'm 18, I'm an adult, They're not responsible for me. :eek:

    Is this an actual Law? Would it be the same story if I walked up with my 10 year old brother? :mad:

    i'd imagine that somebody working as a checkout assistant doesnt have much knowledge of the law, if they did, they wouldnt be working at a checkout :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    paky wrote: »
    i'd imagine that somebody working as a checkout assistant doesnt have much knowledge of the law, if they did, they wouldnt be working at a checkout :pac:

    I worked at a checkout to pay my way through college while doing my law degree.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭234


    Shelflife wrote: »
    if its the case that they refused the op because they believed that they were supplying an underage person, then if thats not the actual case, has the shop assistant defamed the op of accusing them of attempting to act in an illegal manner?

    by the same token do they refuse parents who are with children?

    You could try and crowbar the facts given into qualified privilege, honest opinion or innocent publication. Even if not the case would probably be laughed out of court for obvious reasons. If not they would probably get contemptious damages. There would be strong public policy reasons against allowing any such defamation action to succeed, otherwise if somebody was refused service at a bar without ID based on the fact that they looked 16 but were in fact 18 then this could be construed as an allegation of an attempt to committ a criminal offence and suddenly every 18 year old who didn't get served could sue.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭Sala


    I got asked for ID in Lidl a couple of weeks ago. I am 25. I never get asked for ID. It must be some sort of company policy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12 NormaJean


    Shelflife wrote: »
    if its the case that they refused the op because they believed that they were supplying an underage person, then if thats not the actual case, has the shop assistant defamed the op of accusing them of attempting to act in an illegal manner?

    by the same token do they refuse parents who are with children?

    EXACTLY. I told him when ever my parents bought drink with me I was never asked for ID. And I was only bringing my sister to help me carry the shopping. Load of BS!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12 NormaJean


    big_show wrote: »
    I was under the impression that once OP bought the Alcohol, it would be him that would held responsible if he gave it to the minor and not lidl's?

    That's what I'm saying. I should get in trouble if I supplied the alcohol. Not lidl!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭paky


    Sala wrote: »
    I got asked for ID in Lidl a couple of weeks ago. I am 25. I never get asked for ID. It must be some sort of company policy.

    its policy in big supermarkets to ask for id if you look under 25.

    the guy was probably just covering his a.ss or was just been a moron about it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,906 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    NormaJean wrote: »
    EXACTLY. I told him when ever my parents bought drink with me I was never asked for ID. And I was only bringing my sister to help me carry the shopping. Load of BS!
    NormaJean wrote: »
    That's what I'm saying. I should get in trouble if I supplied the alcohol. Not lidl!
    Read this post again. You asked for the laws surrounding it. The store is liable if they sell you alcohol that they suspect will be consumed by under-18s. Under-18s are legally allowed to drink with the permission of their parents, which is why you don't need ID with them.

    The law is an ass, not the checkout guy

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,303 ✭✭✭source


    28064212 wrote: »
    Read this post again. You asked for the laws surrounding it. The store is liable if they sell you alcohol that they suspect will be consumed by under-18s. Under-18s are legally allowed to drink with the permission of their parents, which is why you don't need ID with them.

    The law is an ass, not the checkout guy

    Just for clarity, the part I've highlighted is only in the family home, not a public place. ie, Mom and Dad can't decide you can have a drink and then buy you one in a pub.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 158 ✭✭MeerKat17


    NormaJean wrote: »
    Today I went to Lidl. It's my 18th birthday and I wanted to buy some alcohol.
    I went up to the counter with my 15 year old sister and the man refused to sell me the alcohol because my sister was underage.
    I mean come on, I'm 18 why cant I buy it. He told me if my parents were there it would be fine but I'm 18, I'm an adult, They're not responsible for me. :eek:

    Is this an actual Law? Would it be the same story if I walked up with my 10 year old brother? :mad:[/QUOT

    It happens unfortunately. Last Paddy's day I went in to Dunnes with my OH to buy beer, I was 26, he was 28, I was buying the beer and was asked for ID and showed it no problem, my OH who was standing beside me was also ID'd but he only had his UK ID with him and the guy serving refused to sell us alcohol as a result...even though we were 26 and 28.....I was raging!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    NormaJean wrote: »
    EXACTLY. I told him when ever my parents bought drink with me I was never asked for ID. And I was only bringing my sister to help me carry the shopping. Load of BS!

    So you told him you were actually planning on handing her the alcohol to her? This would not have helped your case.
    28064212 wrote: »
    Read this post again. You asked for the laws surrounding it. The store is liable if they sell you alcohol that they suspect will be consumed by under-18s. Under-18s are legally allowed to drink with the permission of their parents, which is why you don't need ID with them.

    The law is an ass, not the checkout guy

    I think it's a pretty useful law.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    234 wrote: »
    You could try and crowbar the facts given into qualified privilege, honest opinion or innocent publication. Even if not the case would probably be laughed out of court for obvious reasons. If not they would probably get contemptious damages. There would be strong public policy reasons against allowing any such defamation action to succeed, otherwise if somebody was refused service at a bar without ID based on the fact that they looked 16 but were in fact 18 then this could be construed as an allegation of an attempt to committ a criminal offence and suddenly every 18 year old who didn't get served could sue.

    In the case of not selling to an 18yr old with no id, this would be covered by the fact that the assistant was protecting herself from committing a crime by refusing to serve.

    However once you have proven your age, to refuse to serve someone because you believe they will give it to someone underage without any proof is a minefield. If i was accused of selling alcohol to underaged people i would not be happy at all and at minimum would expect a grovelling apology from the owner.

    Fwiw i have an off licence and we are very careful about who we sell to, i do believe that unless you have proof ie: you have seen someone hand the alcohol to an underage person then you would have to be very careful about what you accuse someone of.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Shelflife wrote: »
    In the case of not selling to an 18yr old with no id, this would be covered by the fact that the assistant was protecting herself from committing a crime by refusing to serve.

    However once you have proven your age, to refuse to serve someone because you believe they will give it to someone underage without any proof is a minefield. If i was accused of selling alcohol to underaged people i would not be happy at all and at minimum would expect a grovelling apology from the owner.

    Fwiw i have an off licence and we are very careful about who we sell to, i do believe that unless you have proof ie: you have seen someone hand the alcohol to an underage person then you would have to be very careful about what you accuse someone of.

    At this point you have committed an offence though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    No, if you find out subsequent to selling the alcohol you havnt committed an offence. If you know that they will pass it on, then you have committed an offence.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭234


    Shelflife wrote: »
    In the case of not selling to an 18yr old with no id, this would be covered by the fact that the assistant was protecting herself from committing a crime by refusing to serve.
    Afraid not. Taking precautions to prevent the commission of an offence is not a defence to a defamation action, though it obviously would be taken into account.
    First of all it would be unlikely that any of this would constitute defamation for obvious public policy and common sense reasons. However, if you want to look at it hypothetically the fact that you were taking precautionary measures doesn't help your case. Defamation is the publication of a false statment about a person that tend to lower the reputation of that person in the eyes of reasonabel members of society. So if the people behind the fictional 26 year old with no ID in the queue would take from your refusal to serve him that you thought he was underage and trying to committ an offence then there would be defamation. Doesn't matter how responsibly you though you were acting.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 189 ✭✭MonTheBiffy


    So if you have say a 5-year-old child with you will they not serve you on the assumption that you are buying 4 bottles of vodka and 3 crates of Bulmers for him?

    Absolute joke, don't they realise if you're buying hooch for young 'uns they wait outside looking all shady


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6 anny


    the law here is non sensical if one was to buy alcohol for the purpose of giving it to a minor then they would tell them to wait outside.it is an embarassing situation for a person to be put in this situation....what if you have id look young and have your son or daughter with you??where is the dividing line?? and why are driving licences not accepted by certain stores...it makes no dense imo


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    If its store policy not to sell to people who are in the company of minors then thats fine.

    However if you are refusing sales to some people and not others who are in the company of minors and you are doing so on a whim or hunch and no hard evidence i believe that you are leaving yourself open to alot of trouble.

    If you accuse someone of selling drink to minors, that in my opinion would be defaming their character.


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