Proposing a new way to warm up...

Hanley

This is the fleshing out of an idea which Will used to regularly lecture about... basically as you move from the ground up, the function of joints alternate from mobility to stability, basically...

ankle - mobility
knee - stability
hip - mobility
low back - stability
upper back - mobility
shoulders - stability
neck - kinda everything, but most people don't have neck mobility issues, so stability there too

What I propose is that since these joints have different functions, they should be warmed up in different ways, each with a single exercise to promote the function of that joint.

So for example, 3 rounds of a specific number of reps/time of...

ankle - wall taps http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feY5JrgSpzE&feature=related

knee - knee drop/bulgarian split squat/reverse lunge

hip - over/unders

lower back - hip pop ups (glute) and plank variation ('core') since they work synergistically

upper back/t-spine - a mobilisation drill of some sort

shoulders - scap rows/push ups/pull ups

neck - some form of isometric band resisted work

Depending on training frequency etc you'd need to progress and rotate the exercises periodically to ensure constant improvement, but I think as a general guideline for all populations without any major specific concern or pre-existing injury it could be a good guideline to follow. And if in 5 years when I'm famous various people start using it, I want it on record that I was the first to popularise it.

Thoughts, criticisms, etc etc..?

squod

How long does it take? Any plans on doing a video tutorial?

itsallaboutheL

Doesn't everyone do this at this stage?

I think anyone remotely serious about their training does.

Also i've been doing those wall tap things standing lately and i've gotten some awful funny looks.

cc87

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Doesn't everyone do this at this stage?

I think anyone remotely serious about their training does.

I dont think a huge amount of people do really.

So many people still consider a few minutes on the bike a warmup

Then they do a few light reps of benching/squating/deadlifting etc to warm up for that exercise

JJayoo

Full video please

SanoVitae

Great thread - this is very relevant to me because it covers some of the stuff I was hoping to learn from Will at IP.

Hanley wrote: »

ankle - wall taps http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feY5JrgSpzE&feature=related

Very cool. I'll be using this one from now on.

More videos for each warm-up would be great. Cheers.

cmyk

I always use these....and more, but i'll change it to what dominates the session rather than a general one. I'd also concentrate on hips and shoulders as that's where the majority of issues seem to lie.

I generally wouldn't bother with the ankle warmup either (unless someone has a particular issue there) You've got ankle dorsiflexion in lunge variations, over unders and squat pattern warmups. I also (rightly or wrongly) I drill the shoulders through as many different planes before people get bored.

Da Za

Formally known as an IP warm up!!

These sort of things should be done everyday in some shape or form to be honest!

Do u believe it's better to work up the body and do that a few times or completely separate the upper body drills to the lower ones?

the drifter

my god...your amazing...

Bruce7

I wondered why the IP warmup stayed the same for every session for 6-8 weeks, when for the strength, conditioning and repetition blocks, the same exercise wasn't done more than once per week.

I'm not criticising it, as I found the mobility and stability stuff very beneficial, but just wondered if there was a reason for this, or could it work just as well or even better to have a W(armup)1, W2, etc. that are cycled throughout the week?

Hanley

JJayoo wrote: »

Full video please

squod wrote: »

How long does it take? Any plans on doing a video tutorial?

I hadn’t tbh… I was just hoping for a discussion on it for now but we’ll see what comes out of this thread.

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Doesn't everyone do this at this stage?

I think anyone remotely serious about their training does.

Everyone who’s remotely serious about training does something like that? I very much doubt it. People who don’t really know what they’re doing CERTAINLY don’t, and that’s who I was more talking about in regards to the stuff outlined above.

Also i've been doing those wall tap things standing lately and i've gotten some awful funny looks.

They look pretty stupid eh?

cmyk wrote: »

I always use these....and more, but i'll change it to what dominates the session rather than a general one. I'd also concentrate on hips and shoulders as that's where the majority of issues seem to lie.

I think down the road, once a base has been laid, that’s probably the right approach. I was kind of looking at this from the perspective of someone who’s never really done anything along those lines and has a lot of problems to work out. It’s more a shotgun approach to trying to improve everything in as short a time as possible, rather than a specific one to work out issues ya know?

I agree on the hips and shoulders being the prime suspects for trouble tho and requiring more work.

I generally wouldn't bother with the ankle warmup either (unless someone has a particular issue there) You've got ankle dorsiflexion in lunge variations, over unders and squat pattern warmups. I also (rightly or wrongly) I drill the shoulders through as many different planes before people get bored.

Fair point, but again for the average person, is their level of dorsiflexion sufficient? You here of a lot of people complaining about insufficient ankle mobility for squatting, and it’s not the sort of thing anyone ever really worries about. It’s probably something that you could hit for 4 weeks out of every 16+ and maintain more than sufficient levels of mobility to not have to worry about it tbh, but better safe than sorry initially. Plus it only takes about 2/3 minutes to do 3 repeats on it.

Da Za wrote: »

Formally known as an IP warm up!!

Heavily inspired, but the IP warm up really focuses on shoulders and hips. The other aspects like knee and core stability get hit during the S and C blocks.

Do u believe it's better to work up the body and do that a few times or completely separate the upper body drills to the lower ones?

I’d say it’s goal specific. If you’re experienced enough to know where you issues lie, or have someone who knows what to look for with you, then work on the problem areas. But if you’re new to it all, chances are everything is going to be sub-optimal and it makes sense to spend the first while pulling everything together and getting a sense for how each joint should function no?

Hanley

I wondered why the IP warmup stayed the same for every session for 6-8 weeks, when for the strength, conditioning and repetition blocks, the same exercise wasn't done more than once per week.

I'm not criticising it, as I found the mobility and stability stuff very beneficial, but just wondered if there was a reason for this, or could it work just as well or even better to have a W(armup)1, W2, etc. that are cycled throughout the week?

Like everything else, the warm up was just a template. If you’d specific issues, Will would advise what to do instead/additionally. That’s one of those things that was missed by people who didn’t train there.

The S/C/R blocks exercises could get repeated depending on how frequently you trained. There was one point where I was repeating each S day 2x per week and just adjusting the loading parameters.

I’m sure there’s other reasons why the warm up wasn’t rotated weekly, but I’d say the most obvious one is because it just wasn’t necessary and that the mechanisms of adaptation for mobility and stability are significantly different to those of strength and conditioning so, so didn’t need to be rotated in the same way to keep things ‘fresh’.

SanoVitae

Hanley wrote: »

I’m sure there’s other reasons why the warm up wasn’t rotated weekly, but I’d say the most obvious one is because it just wasn’t necessary and that the mechanisms of adaptation for mobility and stability are significantly different to those of strength and conditioning so, so didn’t need to be rotated in the same way to keep things ‘fresh’.

I'd imagine that the reasons were for more psychological reasons rather than physicals ones - i.e. what will work as a warm-up will always work and the only reason to change it is to keep things fresh and "new".

cmyk

Hanley wrote: »

I think down the road, once a base has been laid, that’s probably the right approach. I was kind of looking at this from the perspective of someone who’s never really done anything along those lines and has a lot of problems to work out. It’s more a shotgun approach to trying to improve everything in as short a time as possible, rather than a specific one to work out issues ya know?

Yep I guess it very much depends though on the person(s) you're dealing with. The client base of IP was arguably dominated by people focussed on getting better, who respected the guys and their methods. The majority of people I deal with don't, they want to lose weight etc and that's pretty much it.

Hanley wrote: »

Fair point, but again for the average person, is their level of dorsiflexion sufficient? You here of a lot of people complaining about insufficient ankle mobility for squatting, and it’s not the sort of thing anyone ever really worries about. It’s probably something that you could hit for 4 weeks out of every 16+ and maintain more than sufficient levels of mobility to not have to worry about it tbh, but better safe than sorry initially. Plus it only takes about 2/3 minutes to do 3 repeats on it.

Again, and this will answer the other part from my point of view, I alternate them upper/lower body for a PHA type training effect, in short I have to 'sell' it to some of my clients as a mini-training circuit. I generally have an hour with someone, I've got to prioritise them, and for the reasons stated above dorsiflexion may be restricted but it's generally not their biggest issue and it's covered enough in other movements to help that.

Hanley wrote: »

I’d say it’s goal specific. If you’re experienced enough to know where you issues lie, or have someone who knows what to look for with you, then work on the problem areas. But if you’re new to it all, chances are everything is going to be sub-optimal and it makes sense to spend the first while pulling everything together and getting a sense for how each joint should function no?

Absolutely, well in a general case you're warmup is fine, unfortunately it's not that groundbreaking though...maybe just in this country. :rolleyes:

Bruce7

Hanley wrote: »

I’d say the most obvious one is because it just wasn’t necessary and that the mechanisms of adaptation for mobility and stability are significantly different to those of strength and conditioning

Is this something that has been definitively established?

SanoVitae wrote: »

I'd imagine that the reasons were for more psychological reasons rather than physicals ones - i.e. what will work as a warm-up will always work and the only reason to change it is to keep things fresh and "new".

I don't think this is correct. I was only there a short time, but I found a big difference between, for example, the hip mobility component of the IP14 warmup (leg swings and groin rotation) and the IP15 warmup (over unders and hurdle steps).

This could be just me though. Maybe they all seem the same to the people who have no mobility and stability issues, but I suspect these people are few and far between.

Hanley

Bruce7 wrote: »

Is this something that has been definitively established?

No, but intuitively it’s something that I think makes sense. Strength and size gains require changes on a celluar level (myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy – acute damage to the cells effectively) where as the flexilibty/mobility thing is more of a inhibition/fascia issue – tho I’m open to correction on that.

So since one is something that is adaptive, and the other is more of a ‘learning’ thing, I think my statement makes sense.

I don't think this is correct. I was only there a short time, but I found a big difference between, for example, the hip mobility component of the IP14 warmup (leg swings and groin rotation) and the IP15 warmup (over unders and hurdle steps).

You need to look at what was the focus for the warm ups tho – IP13 was about hip mobility (over/unders etc etc), IP14 was about glute activation (pop ups, bird dogs etc) and IP15 was back to hip mobility. I know Will spoke about it before, but you couldn’t take any of the iprogrammes in isolation. There was a flow and progression that was there if you looked deeper. I said to a few people I was going to sit down and pick apart the iprogrammes and see if I could explain what the general progression and theory was behind them, I have time on my hands this week so I’ll be doing that.

I’ll send it to Will and get his take on it before posting it, but it should clear a few things up for people because when you look at the progressions and structure to everything involved, especially the strength sessions and warm ups, it was pretty simple.

TheZ

I think the problem a lot of people have is that they have a limited amount of time for a training session - say for example fifty minutes. So ten minutes of a warm up and ten minutes of foam rolling at the end reduces time for what people regard as working by about half.

Should people sacrifice that time for the warm up and the foam rolling - would it be more beneficial assuming goal is to get fitter and stronger

genuine question

Hanley

TheZ wrote: »

I think the problem a lot of people have is that they have a limited amount of time for a training session - say for example fifty minutes. So ten minutes of a warm up and ten minutes of foam rolling at the end reduces time for what people regard as working by about half.

Should people sacrifice that time for the warm up and the foam rolling - would it be more beneficial assuming goal is to get fitter and stronger

genuine question

The warm up as I’ve outlined isn’t so much focused on acute injury prevention during the session as it cumulative damage over a longer run period.

Doing some lighter sets of the exercises you plan on doing during the session is probably enough to stop you getting injured on any given day, but it’s the cumulative effect of poor mobility and recruitment patterns that’ll get you over time.

So in that regard, you could probably move the ‘warm up’ to an ‘off’ day and call it active recovery or something like that and still end up with the same net effect.

cmyk

The problem with all of the warmups are that even those may need to be coached, so the warmup alone only helps if it in itself is performed correctly. Take a look around in most gyms at people doing (to take some of the ones you've mentioned) planks/bird dogs, most people do these pretty badly.

If the warmup or 'movement prep' is done incorrectly it's going to transfer to the actual workout. I'm just playing devil's advocate here by the way, I agree in principle with what you're saying.

Hanley

cmyk wrote: »

Yep I guess it very much depends though on the person(s) you're dealing with. The client base of IP was arguably dominated by people focussed on getting better, who respected the guys and their methods. The majority of people I deal with don't, they want to lose weight etc and that's pretty much it.

Agreed. So the argument then becomes how do you sell the idea of the warm up to promote injury prevention and general well being… Which you did by….

Again, and this will answer the other part from my point of view, I alternate them upper/lower body for a PHA type training effect, in short I have to 'sell' it to some of my clients as a mini-training circuit. I generally have an hour with someone, I've got to prioritise them, and for the reasons stated above dorsiflexion may be restricted but it's generally not their biggest issue and it's covered enough in other movements to help that.

Yup, I appreciate the difficulty that exists in selling something like that given a short time period and weighing up what you have to forego to do it. That’s why I touched on it being used as active recovery on an off day. But then can you trust the average PT client to do that…?

Absolutely, well in a general case you're warmup is fine, unfortunately it's not that groundbreaking though...maybe just in this country. :rolleyes:

Haha it was as much tongue in cheek as anything

cmyk wrote: »

The problem with all of the warmups are that even those may need to be coached, so the warmup alone only helps if it in itself is performed correctly. Take a look around in most gyms at people doing (to take some of the ones you've mentioned) planks/bird dogs, most people do these pretty badly.

1) Warm up performed correctly
2) Warm up performed incorrectly
3) No warm up at all
That’s probably how I’d rank them in terms efficiency. So even tho a poorly performed one may be worse than a perfect one, I think it’d still be better than none at all. And depending on how often you are around your client, you may be able to coach them to do it properly without too much trouble.

I guess video tutorials and stuff probably come into play here too tho most people lack the kinesthetic awareness to know by feel whether they’re doing something correctly or incorrectly.

If the warmup or 'movement prep' is done incorrectly it's going to transfer to the actual workout. I'm just playing devil's advocate here by the way, I agree in principle with what you're saying.

In what way? And will it have a detrimental effect on the workout?

This is all really interesting and generating some good discussion.

Bruce7

Hanley wrote: »

No, but intuitively it’s something that I think makes sense. Strength and size gains require changes on a celluar level (myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy – acute damage to the cells effectively) where as the flexilibty/mobility thing is more of a inhibition/fascia issue – tho I’m open to correction on that.

So since one is something that is adaptive, and the other is more of a ‘learning’ thing, I think my statement makes sense.

Not challenging you, just asking. I don't know the answer to any of this

Hanley wrote: »

You need to look at what was the focus for the warm ups tho – IP13 was about hip mobility (over/unders etc etc), IP14 was about glute activation (pop ups, bird dogs etc) and IP15 was back to hip mobility. I know Will spoke about it before, but you couldn’t take any of the iprogrammes in isolation. There was a flow and progression that was there if you looked deeper. I said to a few people I was going to sit down and pick apart the iprogrammes and see if I could explain what the general progression and theory was behind them, I have time on my hands this week so I’ll be doing that.

I’ll send it to Will and get his take on it before posting it, but it should clear a few things up for people because when you look at the progressions and structure to everything involved, especially the strength sessions and warm ups, it was pretty simple.

Good stuff. Look forward to it. I was reading his old blog, and came across the following, which is very close to the current S1 and S2.

In this, specific mobility and stability work was being done before the main exercise of each session.

Session 1 – Squats and Pull Ups/Chins
Warm Up
Lower Body Mobility/Stability Work
Squat Variation – 3-5 sets of 3-5 reps
Supplementary Hamstring – 2-3 sets of 8-12 reps
Core/Trunk Work – TBD
Upper Body Mobility/Stability Work
Pull Ups/Chins Variation – 3-5 sets of 3-5 reps
Supplementary Chest – 2-3 sets of 8-12 reps
Arm Work – 2-3 sets of 8-12 reps

Session 2 – Deadlift and Bench
Warm Up
Lower Body Mobility/Stability Work
Deadlift Variation – 3-5 sets of 3-5 reps
Supplementary Quad dominant – 2-3 sets of 8-12 reps
Core/Trunk Work – TBD
Upper Body Mobility/Stability Work
Horizontal Press Variation – 3-5 sets of 3-5 reps
Supplementary Back – 2-3 sets of 8-12 reps
Arm Work – 2-3 sets of 8-12 reps

So could something like a mix of what you and cmyk are proposing be the solution - a general base warmup and also some specific exercises depending on what is being done in the main strength session?

Hanley

Bruce7 wrote: »

Not challenging you, just asking. I don't know the answer to any of this

Dude I've no idea... I'm just spitballing on what I think makes sense. I'm actually going to do a bit of research (aka mail Will) later and find out if what I'm saying makes sense or not. I was talking to him about the general template I laid out above and he agreed it was good in theory.

The practicalities of using it in a real life setting with limited time are where the issues lie, as cmyk has hit on.

Good stuff. Look forward to it. I was reading his old blog, and came across the following, which is very close to the current S1 and S2.

In this, specific mobility and stability work was being done before the main exercise of each session.

That's pretty much the template alright. The conditioning blocks have a similar theory behind them as well. I've never looked at the R sessions so can't comment.

Interesting how the work's structured. I assume Will prefers to do it all at the start now for whatever reason tho.

So could something like a mix of what you and cmyk are proposing be the solution - a general base warmup and also some specific exercises depending on what is being done in the main strength session?

Sounds good. At a very basic level, the ‘strength’ sessions are an upper body push + lower body pull (think bench + DL), or upper body pull + lower body push (think row + squat) so maybe it makes sense to hit the problem areas (hip mobility and shoulder stability) each day and rotate in specific components that will make the rest of the session easier on any given day.

But that’s very IP specific. If you change how the program is structured it not longer applies. Hopefully you see what I’m getting at tho. I think we’re on the same page.

cmyk

Hanley wrote: »

But then can you trust the average PT client to do that…?

Now we're back to the real crux of the matter.

Hanley wrote: »

In what way? And will it have a detrimental effect on the workout? This is all really interesting and generating some good discussion.

Movement patterning should be apparent in all of the warmups you listed. If the warmup patterns are done incorrectly (without external loading) how will they manage to use a correct pattern under load? Hard to explain without video/pictures so i'll put a pictoral example together now in a minute.

AntiVirus

Hanley wrote: »

ankle - wall taps http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feY5JrgSpzE&feature=related

They look very much like calf stretching exercise, I would have thought just rotating your akle around in circles and backwards and forwards would be of more benfit.

SanoVitae

Hanley wrote: »

Dude I've no idea.

Me neither by the way!

This thread is a lot more constructive than the last IP one - lets keep it that way - lots of good info to mine from it.

cmyk

AntiVirus wrote: »

They look very much like calf stretching exercise, I would have thought just rotating your akle around in circles and backwards and forwards would be of more benfit.

Not really, most people lack dorsiflexion (think bringing toes towards knee). Important for several reasons, we're talking primarily gym work here, but for athletes too, think sprinting, squatting, lunging etc. As with any restriction, compensations can occur elsewhere because of it.

Killme00

Interesting thread. I have some thoughts which i'll add at lunchtime.

AntiVirus

cmyk wrote: »

Not really, most people lack dorsiflexion (think bringing toes towards knee). Important for several reasons, we're talking primarily gym work here, but for athletes too, think sprinting, squatting, lunging etc. As with any restriction, compensations can occur elsewhere because of it.

I used to be one of those people who never had a proper warm up or stretch and use to wonder why I had to visit the physio so often. I must give Hanleys routine a go later.

cmyk

Ok...this is really elementary but someone warming up with air squats can compensate with a valgus patterning...it's exaggerated here but pretty typical



If they warm up like this, what is their loaded pattern going to look like? For any beginners reading this, right=bad, left=good. Same can happen with a lunge pattern. This is just one of many compensations by the way, and in most cases it just a simple case of coaching the movements properly.

Da Za

If you go to Will's youtube there are a lot of video's of all the mobility and stability exercises he filmed a few year's ago.........none of the stuff has changed because it works.

If you look at the video's you can come up with your own routine.

Hanley

cmyk wrote: »

Now we're back to the real crux of the matter.
Movement patterning should be apparent in all of the warmups you listed. If the warmup patterns are done incorrectly (without external loading) how will they manage to use a correct pattern under load? Hard to explain without video/pictures so i'll put a pictoral example together now in a minute.

cmyk wrote: »

Ok...this is really elementary but someone warming up with air squats can compensate with a valgus patterning...it's exaggerated here but pretty typical



If they warm up like this, what is their loaded pattern going to look like? For any beginners reading this, right=bad, left=good. Same can happen with a lunge pattern. This is just one of many compensations by the way, and in most cases it just a simple case of coaching the movements properly.

Ok, since we’ve used squatting as an example – sub in wall squats or goblet squats. Both are self corrective. If you show someone what to do, they can’t do it incorrectly (elbows inside knees on goblet, knees can’t hit wall on wall squat).

Ideally, every time I’d suggest using a movement that ‘can’t’ be done incorrectly, or one that is really hard to f*ck up. Easier said than done tho.

AntiVirus wrote: »

They look very much like calf stretching exercise, I would have thought just rotating your akle around in circles and backwards and forwards would be of more benfit.

cmyk wrote: »

Not really, most people lack dorsiflexion (think bringing toes towards knee). Important for several reasons, we're talking primarily gym work here, but for athletes too, think sprinting, squatting, lunging etc. As with any restriction, compensations can occur elsewhere because of it.

Yup that’s why I included it, plus it seems for something so easy and quick to do, it’d be a shame to just leave it out!!

AntiVirus wrote: »

I used to be one of those people who never had a proper warm up or stretch and use to wonder why I had to visit the physio so often. I must give Hanleys routine a go later.

Use it at your own risk. It’s not a completed plan or anything, just something I was thinking thru and wanted some discussion around. A lot of good stuff has come out of it here and thru mails and PMs so I’ve a fair bit to think about.

Hopefully people will keep posting and questioning the logic and reason behind certain selections and the holes in the plan in general.

cmyk

Hanley wrote: »

Ok, since we’ve used squatting as an example – sub in wall squats or goblet squats. Both are self corrective. If you show someone what to do, they can’t do it incorrectly (elbows inside knees on goblet, knees can’t hit wall on wall squat).

Ideally, every time I’d suggest using a movement that ‘can’t’ be done incorrectly, or one that is really hard to f*ck up. Easier said than done tho.

Exactly, wall squats is one 'self-correcting' exercise that I use for the warmup for the kettlebell classes, if you want i'll happily post the full warmup circuit and my thinking behind it later?

cc87

Considering one of the main comments about the warmup is the time issue, is splitting it in 2 and rotating which exercises are done each workout an option? Considering you said yourself the warmup is focused at long term rather than immediate.

While obviously only doing half the exercises wont be as good as all of them, it would still be a simple solution.

Hanley

cmyk wrote: »

Exactly, wall squats is one 'self-correcting' exercise that I use for the warmup for the kettlebell classes, if you want i'll happily post the full warmup circuit and my thinking behind it later?

I'd love to hear it!

cc87 wrote: »

Considering one of the main comments about the warmup is the time issue, is splitting it in 2 and rotating which exercises are done each workout an option? Considering you said yourself the warmup is focused at long term rather than immediate.

It certainly is...

My first option - 7 exercises x3 rounds = 21

Your way - 4 exercises x3 rounds = 12

My second option - 7 exercises x2 rounds = 14

I'd almost chose to drop it to 2 rounds and get everything in 3x per week. Or just drop the neck stuff because it's probably a bit of a waste of time and the danger would outweight the benefit when working with a 'normal' population.

While obviously only doing half the exercises wont be as good as all of them, it would still be a simple solution.

Fully agree. How would you split them up if you were going to?

gavtron

looks good,

i'd throw in some inchworms to loosen up the hamstrings and you'd get a bit of a plank in there as well.
maybe something like scorpion kicks for the hips too? i find these good...

howtomake

Maybe I missed it, but could you elaborate a bit more with some examples of...

upper back/t-spine - a mobilisation drill of some sort

It's the "some sort" I'm asking about.

Cheers

Hanley

gavtron wrote: »

looks good,

i'd throw in some inchworms to loosen up the hamstrings and you'd get a bit of a plank in there as well.
maybe something like scorpion kicks for the hips too? i find these good...

Are you just adding stuff for the sake of adding it now?

ragg

Was reading on some blog, somewhere, recently that to combat the time issue, people "superset" mobility\stability work with the actual workout.

Eg, Benchpress "superset" with wall slides (probably a bad example, but hopefully you get what I mean)

cc87

Hanley wrote: »

It certainly is...

My first option - 7 exercises x3 rounds = 21

Your way - 4 exercises x3 rounds = 12

My second option - 7 exercises x2 rounds = 14

I'd almost chose to drop it to 2 rounds and get everything in 3x per week. Or just drop the neck stuff because it's probably a bit of a waste of time and the danger would outweight the benefit when working with a 'normal' population.

Fully agree. How would you split them up if you were going to?

Your 2nd option would make far more sense than my way, however, if you were to do it by splitting it in 2 and rotating exercises, then the small bit of extra time could be spend on problem areas.

I think how the warmup was split depend on the exercise session itself and to be honest i dont know enough about the mobilising/stabilising of the various joints to be able to say what exercises would work the best together

gavtron

Hanley wrote: »

Are you just adding stuff for the sake of adding it now?

no, you were asking for "Thoughts, criticisms, etc etc..?" so i gave you some thoughts on what i'd do.
if you don't like it that's fine.

Hanley

gavtron wrote: »

no, you were asking for "Thoughts, criticisms, etc etc..?" so i gave you some thoughts on what i'd do.
if you don't like it that's fine.

I knew this thread was going too well.

I was just surprised that everoyne was saying it's too long, and then someone came along and started adding stuff.

mushykeogh

howtomake wrote: »

Maybe I missed it, but could you elaborate a bit more with some examples of...

It's the "some sort" I'm asking about.

Cheers

Thoracic extensions/rotations, youl find them on youtube im sure.

gavtron

Hanley wrote: »

I knew this thread was going too well.

I was just surprised that everoyne was saying it's too long, and then someone came along and started adding stuff.

Well I didn't think it was too long, obviously. It's fairly similar to what I'd do myself for a warm up, with either some skipping or rowing thrown in for good measure, you'd knock it out in about 10-12 mins.

cmyk

Hanley wrote: »

I'd love to hear it!

Ok here we go, it's not groundbreaking but hopefully this will help people develop their own.

First off this is to prep for a beginners kettlebell class, with movements that will pretty much just contain deadlifts/dh swings/sh swings and bodyweight movements essentially....so think about what you'll be doing in your session. I'll change these up for the intermediate class.

The criteria - I have access to indoor facilities and outdoors, with my preference having the class outdoors so it must entail limited equipment, I narrowed this to the kettlebells themselves and bands.

This is a group setting (5-6 people) so has to be easy enough to coach.
I split it upper/lower to give a workout effect and to make sure everyone is prepped for the session.

So in order are...
Bird Dogs - Hips/shoulders/core, I also use this to emphasise the glutes firing.
Quadruped rotations - Thoracic spine, on all fours already so this leads in nicely.
Reverse lunges - Hip flexors/proprioception
Scap pushups - Shoulders (sagittal) I don't do much overhead pressing with beginners.
X-Band walks - Glute activation
Waiter walks (kettlebell) - Shoulder stability

I run them through 2 rounds of that which takes about 10 minutes followed by a couple of rounds of light swings to finish off the warmup.

Sangre

Hanley wrote: »

The warm up as I’ve outlined isn’t so much focused on acute injury prevention during the session as it cumulative damage over a longer run period.

I think this is one of the main reasons many people don't put the effort in with this sort of warm-ups/exercises. There is no immediate, or even short-term, benefit from performing the exercises. This time is spent 2/3x week in the hope it will length their training career. The short-term result, that is, the fact that someone's ankle is suddenly more flexible, unless its has a benefit in a specific sport/movement, is of little concern to many people and therefore not worth the effort.

To be honest, I'm a prime example of this, I haven't done any warm-up, rolling or mobility stuff in about 4 months (other than warm-up sets) and I've seen no noticeable ill-effects so my reaction is basically...meh, can't be arsed!

Apologies if this is covered, haven't read whole thread yet.

mack32

Sangre wrote: »

There is no immediate, or even short-term, benefit from performing the exercises. This time is spent 2/3x week in the hope it will length their training career. The short-term result, that is, the fact that someone's ankle is suddenly more flexible, unless its has a benefit in a specific sport/movement, is of little concern to many people and therefore not worth the effort.

I'd have to disagree here, after only a handful of hip mobility sessions in IP I noticed massive differences, my lower back pain pretty much evaporated and I 'felt' stronger during exercises

Scuba Ste

I wouldn't this a particularly new way of warming up. It's pretty much what was done in IP and having been in East Coast Barbell a few times I know they have a similar warm up routine. I'd imagine anywhere and anyone that's serious about training is doing some sort of mobility and stability warm up.

If your talking about making this more mainstream, the problem as I see it is motivating people to do it. Even in IP you'd see some people going through the bare minimum of movements or not at all. For example in the weightlifting club I'm in I put up a mobility menu similar to the IP warm ups. People would pick 2 hip, 2 shoulder, 1 ankle and 1 wrist exercise to warm up before general oly warm ups. Worked for a while until people just weren't pushed if no one else was pushing them.

Sangre wrote:

I think this is one of the main reasons many people don't put the effort in with this sort of warm-ups/exercises. There is no immediate, or even short-term, benefit from performing the exercises. This time is spent 2/3x week in the hope it will length their training career. The short-term result, that is, the fact that someone's ankle is suddenly more flexible, unless its has a benefit in a specific sport/movement, is of little concern to many people and therefore not worth the effort.

There is an immediate benefit though. If your doing no mobility or stability work you'll find it hard to put together 10 or 20 scap pushups/pullups, etc and you'll find it hard to do hurdle steps or leg swings with good range of motion. After a few weeks you'll see improvements like anything else. The long term effect though is probably more important. It's not necessarily to prolong your training career it's to prevent the injuries that could shorten your training career. I know I had the same attitude as you to this stuff and then my shoulder started getting injured, now I wouldn't train without warming up properly.

Good thread.

Mellor

Scuba Ste wrote: »

For example in the weightlifting club I'm in I put up a mobility menu similar to the IP warm ups. People would pick 2 hip, 2 shoulder, 1 ankle and 1 wrist exercise to warm up before general oly warm ups.

Just on these, oly lift specific.
I've started including snatch, power cleans, front and overhead squats into my routine and mobility is obviously really important here.

I need to improve my hip and ankle mobility for all lifts. Shoulder stability for snatchs and overheads. And the stuff posted in the first post is obviously useful for this. But what would you suggest for wrist warm-up. or anyting else to improve my rack position

cmyk

Sangre wrote: »

I think this is one of the main reasons many people don't put the effort in with this sort of warm-ups/exercises. There is no immediate, or even short-term, benefit from performing the exercises. This time is spent 2/3x week in the hope it will length their training career. The short-term result, that is, the fact that someone's ankle is suddenly more flexible, unless its has a benefit in a specific sport/movement, is of little concern to many people and therefore not worth the effort.

It just depends on where you're coming from. Some people can make dramatic inroads into their mobility in just a few weeks. I guess this is a bit like asking who can do a 100kg deadlift, for some it's a warmup set, some a max effort lift and others who can't even bend their hips to meet the bar.

Sangre wrote: »

To be honest, I'm a prime example of this, I haven't done any warm-up, rolling or mobility stuff in about 4 months (other than warm-up sets) and I've seen no noticeable ill-effects so my reaction is basically...meh, can't be arsed!

I don't foam roll much anymore as I see the warmup having a much bigger effect on me but I see the value in it. It also depends on how the warmup is done, if people just breeze through it's not going to have as big an effect.

kevpants

Sangre wrote: »

I think this is one of the main reasons many people don't put the effort in with this sort of warm-ups/exercises. There is no immediate, or even short-term, benefit from performing the exercises. This time is spent 2/3x week in the hope it will length their training career. The short-term result, that is, the fact that someone's ankle is suddenly more flexible, unless its has a benefit in a specific sport/movement, is of little concern to many people and therefore not worth the effort.

To be honest, I'm a prime example of this, I haven't done any warm-up, rolling or mobility stuff in about 4 months (other than warm-up sets) and I've seen no noticeable ill-effects so my reaction is basically...meh, can't be arsed!

Apologies if this is covered, haven't read whole thread yet.

Yeah I kind of agree. My warmups were prodigiously long now they are just me starting out light with whatever I'm doing. It's boring and the effects really weren't noticeable, then I stopped and noticed no ill effects. Those 3 things to any logical person would make you ask "Why are you doing them then?".

I'll be torn apart but I can't help but think it's all a load of balls. My opinion will probably change in the future based on experiences or whatever but that's my honest view on it right now.

mack32

I see it more as a primer, glute activation work before squats etc, I accept that if someone is healthy and not carrying any injuries it may not yield immediate benefits but I'd imagine that over time you'd make more progress in your lifts/ be more injury resistant if you followed a well thought out warm-up?