[Feedback wanted] Changes to Airsoft adverts

Steve

Hi Folks,

We're thinking of making some changes to the adverts forum and I'd like your thoughts on it.

The main proposed change is going to be to restrict posting there to approved users. By that I mean users who meet a minimum criteria.

The minimum requirements we're proposing will be to have been a member of boards for at least a month and to have had a minimum 'x' number of posts in the Airsoft category.

We have had to deal with an unprecedented number of dupe accounts lately and this the main reason for having to suggest going this way. There is also an issue of some underage users that needs to be addressed.

Your thoughts, questions, criticism and suggestions as always are welcome.

Puding

i see no problem with what your proposing, it is the way adverts normally work on other forums as well

it is a little unfair on a few people who do not post and may want to sell something but the number of dodge accounts it would cut out is far higher so the benefit would defiantly out-way the negative on this one

just my 2 cents

richieffff

I'd be in favor of a minimum post requirement so long as its not too high, somewhere around the 50 post mark as I think this would be a fairly reachable amount of posts. If it were much higher there could be a lot of "spam" posts from people only looking to buy or sell something.

DeBurca

Sounds like a good idea in principle and I assume that you mean 1 Month and X number of posts before they can start a thread in the adverts section as opposed to answering or making an offer to an Add
But if people have to have X number of posts then I think that there will be a lot of stuff and nonsense posted just to boost peoples post count

Steve

Yeah, was thinking of somewhere between 10 and 50 posts to qualify. From the mods point of view, more is better but if you (and I) think back to when we first joined, it seemed like an age before we got to 50

Steve

DeBurca wrote: »

Sounds like a good idea in principle and I assume that you mean 1 Month and X number of posts before they can start a thread in the adverts section as opposed to answering or making an offer to an Add
But if people have to have X number of posts then I think that there will be a lot of stuff and nonsense posted just to boost peoples post count

No, I was thinking 'x' posts before they get access to post anything there. It'll be the mods job to determine if they have just posted meaningless crap in order to qualify, that won't be allowed.

Firekitten

A lot of sites use this method. Arnies in the uk uses 100 posts minimum before sales is even Visible, nevermind postable. And that doesnt seem to aquire much random crap to qualify...

Granted, its a theory now, rather than a solution, but I think it will be good.

Decoy

I think this would benefit the user population as a whole as it would cut out a lot of the cráp that has been happening of late. The obvious criteria to use is post count but even that isn't perfect. The post count has to be high enough to ensure they are a genuine boards user but no so high as to deter people from using the section. I see 50 as being a bit low to allow users to post, maybe 50 just to be able to view the ads section. 100 is probably too high, 75 in the middle seems about right to have the right to post ads.

Without wishing to over-complicate the process unnecessarily another possible notion would be to have separate FOR SALE and WANTED sections with users able to post wanted ads with a lower post count with for sale ads needing a higher count to post??

Gray

I think having to have been a member for a certain length of time would be a better option as this would stop people setting up dup accounts, some of us have low post counts 10 years membership & less than 200 posts:o

Stercus Accidit

There should also be a mechanism for posting requests to gain permission with an alternative vouching method. Not everyone wants to spend time racking up a post count or on forums, but if a member they know in the real world with say X amount of posts could vouch for them, other wise you get spam and/or deals through 3rd parties which could cause trouble.

cdev

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

There should also be a mechanism for posting requests to gain permission with an alternative vouching method. Not everyone wants to spend time racking up a post count or on forums, but if a member they know in the real world with say X amount of posts could vouch for them, other wise you get spam and/or deals through 3rd parties which could cause trouble.

+1 to that suggestion. I don't post much on boards. But I've previously bought a few things from Airsoft Adverts and asked a few questions in the retailer's threads. I'd hate to have to start posting stupid questions (which I'd normally find answers to with a simple thread search). I'd happily supply mods with paypal receipts for online purchases I've completed with reputable Irish airsoft retailers or any other measures deemed necessary to prove I'm not a messer. I'd rather avoid cluttering up the Airsoft forums with lame comments and previously answered questions to rack up a post count of 50 or 100
I appreciate that you are possibly looking for a more automated way of controlling access to adverts though.

MagicIRL

It should also cut down on the amount threads being spammed up there daily.

Is there any method to restrict users to 1 open/active thread per time on the Adverts section? To stop multiple threads for the same item or multiple threads for multiple items from 1 user?

Firekitten

There needs to be a strict enforcement of the rules in Adverts too. I'm sure we all remember the days of the Lemming... and how tightly the ship was ran. Jokes aside, This is financial matters at the end of the day. Money is changing hands. We have to keep it absolutely spotless...

Steve

Gray wrote: »

I think having to have been a member for a certain length of time would be a better option as this would stop people setting up dup accounts, some of us have low post counts 10 years membership & less than 200 posts:o

Entry will be personally vetted by the mods so we can make exceptions where it's justified. In your and similar cases, length of membership would certainly be taken into account.

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

There should also be a mechanism for posting requests to gain permission with an alternative vouching method. Not everyone wants to spend time racking up a post count or on forums, but if a member they know in the real world with say X amount of posts could vouch for them, other wise you get spam and/or deals through 3rd parties which could cause trouble.

Interesting idea. Personally, I'd agree provided that the voucher also took responsibility for the vouchee.
i.e. if the vouched-for person did something bannable then whoever vouched for them would also be sanctioned. It would have to be that way to ensure vouching for someone is not done lightly. We'd also have to define somewhat at what point the vouched for person becomes a member in their own right - it wouldn't be fair to make the aforementioned caveat last indefinitely.

Firekitten wrote: »

There needs to be a strict enforcement of the rules in Adverts too. I'm sure we all remember the days of the Lemming... and how tightly the ship was ran. Jokes aside, This is financial matters at the end of the day. Money is changing hands. We have to keep it absolutely spotless...

I disagree there - the old school adverts moderation had a time and place in boards history but it's no longer the case. I know how the old way worked and what the flaws were, I was there on adverts.ie when Lemming was and I too followed the 'ban from orbit' approach that was in place then. It atually ended up causing more resentment and problems than it solved and the new approach imo is accomodating a lot more useds and not making them feel unwelcome because they get a ban for the simplest mistake.

As far as I'm concerned, and I agree that peoples hard earned wodge and kit are at stake here, the cardinal rule will be honesty. Anyone found to be dishonest in any way will be booted out in due course.
That includes stuff like misrepresenting what they are selling, attempting to deal off thread, wasting peoples time after agreeing to meet somewhere etc..

Gray

It might be helpfull to have 2 entry levels to adverts, a lower one to reply to threads & a higher one to start threads.

This could work as new users would be mainly looking to buy kit as they are just starting; where as people looking to sell kit would have been around a while even if they dont have a high post count.

Steve

Good idea Gray but the current available framework can only support access or not so we'll have to work within that.

Arkslippy

Another suggestion.

Stop people starting threads on adverts called "clearout" and "a few bits and bobs" ect. Lots of threads with same or similar names is annoying

Decoy

Good suggestion, there are too many vague/generic titles in the adverts section. The title should specify exactly what is for sale/wanted.

In the same vein, if a user has multiple items to sell they should each have their own thread, too many multi-item sales go to several pages and it's a nightmare to keep track of what offers have been made/accepted.

Steve

I've also got a rules revamp on the back burner, the above two issues are on the list .

TheDoc

Great idea. Tbh I'm sick of dealing with time wasters and mongs. For every one good dealing there is five terrible ones.

I'm not dealing with adverts anymore but will keep an eye to see how things changes things

Kwaska

Steve wrote: »

...The minimum requirements we're proposing will be to have been a member of boards for at least a month and to have had a minimum 'x' number of posts in the Airsoft category...

I don't think it is a good idea.
For example I want to buy something what can be bought only here. I'm new to this forum and there is a chance for me to buy something what I was looking for last 3 months.
Now I have to wrote "x" posts somewhere here just to post here. People will write anything just to boost post count.
Some people are shy or don't like to post, some of them have problems with writing in here. I think this forum will be more inaccessible for them.

andy_g

Kwaska wrote: »

I don't think it is a good idea.
For example I want to buy something what can be bought only here. I'm new to this forum and there is a chance for me to buy something what I was looking for last 3 months.
Now I have to wrote "x" posts somewhere here just to post here. People will write anything just to boost post count.
Some people are shy or don't like to post, some of them have problems with writing in here. I think this forum will be more inaccessible for them.

Not really as the pro's out weigh the cons on this one.

Your a member over a year on boards.ie so we would look at previous posts as in have they been spam and the likes. The pro's: Cuts down on the amount of re-reg accounts to circumvent current/excisting adverts bans.

As for people posting crap to boost their post count will have their post count reset. (not too sure on this yet but works elsewhere on boards.) Thats just some of the ideas.

Steve

As Andy said, the membership time will be more important in this - the minimum post count will enable us to check out anyone we think may be dodgy but at the end of the day it'll be down to common sense.

We're not going to try and restrict the regulars here, just cut out some on the known spanners and make it a bit harder for new accounts that we haven't a clue about to potentially rip off anyone in the community.

Case in point - say we decided on 100 posts as the guideline:

Kwaska wrote: »

Some people are shy or don't like to post, some of them have problems with writing in here. I think this forum will be more inaccessible for them.

I just ran what checks are available to me on your account and would have no problem giving access even though you didn't meet the minimum. However, if the checks had linked you to anyone that was previously banned or if they were in any way inconclusive (hard to explain without giving away mod secrets) then I would have denied it. From the mods point of view, the more posts you have here, the better.

Kwaska

Steve wrote: »

However, if the checks had linked you to anyone that was previously banned or if they were in any way inconclusive (hard to explain without giving away mod secrets) then I would have denied it.

I know much more mod secrets than you think
I'm mod on another vb forum where we have 50k users.

Steve

Kwaska wrote: »

I know much more mod secrets than you think
I'm mod on another vb forum where we have 50k users.

Boards is far from a standard vB Forum at this point, there's a lot of custom stuff in the backend that gives us a bit more to go on.

We've about 400k users here at present.

Decoy

Question: If we are looking at possibly restricting access to the adverts area based on length of membership and/or the standing of an individual member would it not then also make sense to remove that access if a user loses their good standing e.g. by receiving negative feedback multiple times??

J.D.R

Steve wrote: »

Boards is far from a standard vB Forum at this point, there's a lot of custom stuff in the backend that gives us a bit more to go on.

We've about 400k users here at present.

It's not a competition lads :P

But, I think this is a great idea, and will really cut down on the junk posts in the adverts

TheDoc

Decoy wrote: »

Question: If we are looking at possibly restricting access to the adverts area based on length of membership and/or the standing of an individual member would it not then also make sense to remove that access if a user loses their good standing e.g. by receiving negative feedback multiple times??

How do you find out the actual " negative feedback" is genuine.

I've had instances where people would have a negative experience of something I sold them,. because they made a mess of it or using it.

I'll never forget the G36c I sold few years back to a guy who came back to the house going mad cause the gun shat itself, after he horsed loads of yellow BB's through it.

Decoy

TheDoc wrote:

How do you find out the actual " negative feedback" is genuine.

That would be a judgement call by the mods responsible for airsoft adverts. One negative feedback is an opinion, 2-3 is a trend, any more than that you can almost take it as fact but it would still be up to the mods to interpret what has been posted.

ricka

Maybe another reason to make the changes Steve's looking at.

The M4 Stubby robbed from MIA in February and on crimecall last night...

Where was it sold................... according to the perpetrator who gave himself up shortly after crimecall..................our very own........... Airsoft Adverts!

1man3letters

ricka wrote: »

Maybe another reason to make the changes Steve's looking at.

The M4 Stubby robbed from MIA in February and on crimecall last night...

Where was it sold................... according to the perpetrator who gave himself up shortly after crimecall..................our very own........... Airsoft Adverts!

wered ya get that info from??
so if its been bought,someone just spent there cash on evidence, 4shame

Dogwatch

ricka wrote: »

Maybe another reason to make the changes Steve's looking at.

The M4 Stubby robbed from MIA in February and on crimecall last night...

Where was it sold................... according to the perpetrator who gave himself up shortly after crimecall..................our very own........... Airsoft Adverts!

I would love to see your evidence and/or source please.

Edit: beaten to it

ricka

Dogwatch wrote: »

I would love to see your evidence and/or source please.

Edit: beaten to it

Police have contacted MIA and told them.
Personally think some small changes to the thread might make things like this this a little more difficult.

King John The Last

Steve wrote: »

There is also an issue of some underage users that needs to be addressed.

What are these issues?

Steve

King John The Last wrote: »

What are these issues?

Main issue is the fact that it's illegal to sell a RIF to anyone under 16 so we need to figure out if that means that we can't allow access to the forum in that case - and how do we reasonably enforce it.

sharpy2010

I dunno If its already been said but could you introduce a template for threads in the adverts similar to what is there for the seller feedback? and once they have filled it out that they forward it to a mod first so that they can look it over first before posting to avoid people looking for pics and prices and chrono readings etc as if they are serious boards users they can provide all these to ye and we would know as such that ye as mods have already vouched for them?
just to save people with low post counts or who dont always have ready internet access.
cheers
Sharpy.

Steve

There'll be a suggested template in the rules re-vamp if I can ever get around to finishing it

As for sending it to the mods for pre-approval, I can see your point but it would be unworkable because of the workload involved for us and you'd all go nuts because your ads weren't being approved in time.

Captain Commie

how about a sub forum for access requests similar to the football forum where users have to request access to the adverts forum so you get vet them regardless of post count as even tho they may have a high enough post count, they could still be messers.

Hell, i'd volunteer to assist with it if it means the place is kept a bit tidier, im planning on selling some kit come september, but way forum is at mo probably wont be posted online here

Steve

I was thinking an access thread here would serve the purpose - don't think there's a need to dedicate a forum to it.

Messers will always find ways through, the intention of this is to make it that bit harder for them to do so and therefore make it better for the honest people here.

ronan keane

Steve wrote: »

Main issue is the fact that it's illegal to sell a RIF to anyone under 16 so we need to figure out if that means that we can't allow access to the forum in that case - and how do we reasonably enforce it.

Well when I buy a gun I always have a parent with me = Legal

inthetallgrass

I think it's pretty fair but to be honest I only joined to buy and sell things. I did however get a ban because the post office lost the things I sold so I had to post back the things I tradd with other members. Well my ban is about to be lifted. One thing that I think is needed is that in cases like mine that the buyer / trader needs to be a little bit kore undrstanding in these kind of problems. Anyway lesson learned only ahip registered mail.

Steve

OK, re-visiting this as I'm really concerned about the number of new names popping up that just look like they are taking the mick.

Please vote in the poll and offer any further suggestions as to how we should deal with this.

TommyKnocker

Steve wrote: »

OK, re-visiting this as I'm really concerned about the number of new names popping up that just look like they are taking the mick.

Please vote in the poll and offer any further suggestions as to how we should deal with this.

Not sure about having restricted access for the Adverts forum as this will just make more work for you folks (the Mods). But I do think that a zero tolerance policy for a short while on Adverts would disuade the messers. Though this would probably be just as much work for you folk in the short term.

For instance, today I noticed a poster who has 6 (at last count) adverts for the same items. Another poster has an AEG and bag for sale, but has 3 adverts. 1 for the AEG, 1 for the bag and the third for the 2 combined as a package. This type of post makes it very hard to keep track of offers made or changes in asking price etc.

I think it might help if there was some form of a template to be used when selling equipment, similar to the template used in the feed back section, though I am not sure whether this enforceable or not. But it would help cut out the usual first few standard questions about location, pictures, make, muzzle power etc.

Something like

Type: AEG, Accessories, Clothing
Make: Manufacturer/Brand
Age of equipment: If known
Location: Where seller/trader/buyer is located.
First Owner: Y/N
Muzzle power: If applicable
Condition: Condition of equipment. Known issues/defects etc
Terms: Payment type (cash, PO, paypal etc). Intersted in trades or not. Willingness to post/collection only etc
Pics Available: Pics posted or time given when pics will be available.

Also OP of posts should ask Mods to change the Prefix of a thread when item is sold/withdrawn and at this point IMO thread should be locked also to stop it being resurrected in the future as a zombie thread.

Just some thoughts for your consideration

Steve

TommyKnocker wrote: »

Not sure about having restricted access for the Adverts forum as this will just make more work for you folks (the Mods). But I do think that a zero tolerance policy for a short while on Adverts would disuade the messers. Though this would probably be just as much work for you folk in the short term.

I hear you but a zero tolerance policy - in my experience - has been proven not to work. It just results in a lot of bans and a lot of re-reg accounts to get around the bans which results in more bans. In short it gets messy.

For instance, today I noticed a poster who has 6 (at last count) adverts for the same items. Another poster has an AEG and bag for sale, but has 3 adverts. 1 for the AEG, 1 for the bag and the third for the 2 combined as a package. This type of post makes it very hard to keep track of offers made or changes in asking price etc.

A condition of access would have to be to have an understanding of how the forum works and to understand the rules there. Suggestions on how to achieve that are welcome

I think it might help if there was some form of a template to be used when selling equipment, similar to the template used in the feed back section, though I am not sure whether this enforceable or not. But it would help cut out the usual first few standard questions about location, pictures, make, muzzle power etc.

Something like

Type: AEG, Accessories, Clothing
Make: Manufacturer/Brand
Age of equipment: If known
Location: Where seller/trader/buyer is located.
First Owner: Y/N
Muzzle power: If applicable
Condition: Condition of equipment. Known issues/defects etc
Terms: Payment type (cash, PO, paypal etc). Intersted in trades or not. Willingness to post/collection only etc
Pics Available: Pics posted or time given when pics will be available.

+1

Also OP of posts should ask Mods to change the Prefix of a thread when item is sold/withdrawn

+1 I wish people would. It's a easy as reporting the final post.

and at this point IMO thread should be locked also to stop it being resurrected in the future as a zombie thread.

I disagree. If there is a subsequent dispute about the sale, there is currently nowhere to host it. The original thread is the ideal place so we just mark them sold and leave them open. That also helps users who may be searching for previous deals by someone they are thinking of buying / selling to.

Just some thoughts for your consideration

Appreciated.

The_Joker

FINALLY a way to de-clutter airsoft adverts

I think a minimum membership period and number of posts is a good idea, it will give the new members a chance to learn the ropes so to speak.

Another possible idea before a new member is allowed post is a quick test on the charter and airsoft in general
It might sound a bit OTT but judging by a lot of new member threads a fair amount haven't got an iota about airsoft legality or the forum charter.
Ok we all have to start somewhere but at least start with a bit of a clue before creating a thread.
10 multiple choice questions get 7 correct and you're good to go fail and come back the next day to try again.

Questions like
What does the abbreviation FPS mean
A Fun Pertaining to Sausages
B Feet Per Second
C Fast Paddy's Sister

What is the maximum legal FPS allowed for an airsoft device in Ireland
A. 328 FPS
B. 422 FPS
C. 349 FPS

Which of the following are against the charter rules
A. I can raise the price of the item on my Airsoft Advert thread anytime I like.
B. I can only post one picture of the item I have for sale
C. I can only send a personal message regarding my item for sale to a buyer once a deal has been agreed on my sales thread.

Not alone will this help keep Adverts a better place to deal but it will possibly take the workload off the Mods as well.
I think we've all seen the same old story of a debate breaking out on a thread about some small thing which escalates to half a dozen back seat mods throwing their 2 cents in as well, not alone does this keep the thread at the top of the forum but it's just down right annoying.
If everyone knew the rules and dealt with a bit more civility there'd be a lot less hassle.

(And now to go slightly off topic)
I would like to see is an addition to the prefixes will not post (WNP) or collection only (CO).
Not alone will these save my eyes from reading down 10 pages offering an asking price then to be told the seller doesn't want to post anything.
Ok that's the sellers prerogative but a prefix in the title will at least save people posting to find out.

One last suggestion
The wanted ads should be put in a sub category or even one thread as a sticky

That's my two cents worth....keep up the good work

F.U.B.A.R

I would also agree with a wnp or co prefix I realy dont see why posting is such a problem Ive sent a glock in the post and it arrived safely Ive sent about ten 'airsoft packages' and only one wasnt delivered :rolleyes: maybe its just lazyness.... Also is there not away you (mods) can access a computers mac address and ban that? would stop the endless re-reg's Hell they ask for it in UCC so they can track your online activity in the student accomadation :pac:

Steve

Just a heads-up, I've started negotiation with boards admins about a means to post pics in adverts from mobile devices. If y'all could give more feedback on situations where you can't do this (and how you'd get around it) it would help me

whydave

bitemybanger wrote: »

For security reasons maybe a similar approach to the Soccer forum whereas you have to request access to the forum and it is then approved or declined by the mods based on a criteria, ie: must have 50+ posts on boards, read and understand the charter and therefore they have a better understanding of how to use the forums features like the FAQ thread or the search bar.
I don't think it would deter anyone new to the sport but would definatly deter trolls and the type of people trying to look for access for unlawful reasons.
It would make sense giving the nature of the forum and tools used in our trade so to speak.
Just a thought?

Just an idea !

ronan keane

Maybe these Ideas were said but just brainstorming maybe they have to take a quiz about the charter before they gain access to sell

Steve

whydave wrote: »

Just an idea !

ronan keane wrote: »

Maybe these Ideas were said but just brainstorming maybe they have to take a quiz about the charter before they gain access to sell

Yeah, both are part of the soccer access system, and it works well.

It's still on the todo list

thermo

whydave wrote: »

Just an idea !

+1