NCT on a rally car?

JimmyCrackCorn

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

Scrutineering in this country is a fiddle, its all buddy-buddy, I know you so thats a pass sort of situation.

I've DOE tested several 205/306/civic etc rally cars which were registered commercial due to having no back seat's, never had any issue with suspension being too hard and whoever mapped the car should be able to get it through the emissions test no bother if they're any good.

As a gotya You may fail on the SRS airbags and ABS light regulations.

Other than that no issues.

The UK mot has an exemption for deliberate modifications provided they are not unsafe in the testers opinion. Here we have a by the book NCT. (im not allowed to remove ABS unit)

ianobrien

First things first. No car can fail the NCT if something is not present. If the ABS is removed completely (as it haas to be for a rally car) the car can not fail on it. I know of some competition cars that have passed with the ABS removed. Also, it can not fail on suspension being "too hard". The NCT only measures the imbalance on an axle, that's all!

As for seats/belts, I've had night nav cars pass the NCT that had full competition seats and belts fitted no problem. if you read the NCT manual carefully, it does not say that the seats and belts must be OEM. Also, there is nothing in the NCT manual about roll cages either!

Rally cars can pass the NCT. I know of some that have no problems at all. The only problem was Manta 400's and the width of the rear tyres being too wide of the brake rollers!

The main problems are with brakes and emissions. The easiest thing is to swap the pads for road pads (they're cheap enough) and for emissions, if it won't pass (given that a lot of competition engines idle at 2k or above), maybe look at changing plugs and turning down the idle.

If the rally car is over 30 years old, it's exempt from the NCT anyway. All mk2 Escorts are exempt. If it's a Civic, there would be no problem in getting it passed. Swap in a set of pads and you're off!

gofaster_s13

ianobrien wrote: »

First things first. No car can fail the NCT if something is not present. If the ABS is removed completely (as it haas to be for a rally car) the car can not fail on it. I know of some competition cars that have passed with the ABS removed. Also, it can not fail on suspension being "too hard". The NCT only measures the imbalance on an axle, that's all!

Wrong, if a vehicle type approved by the manufacturer with ABS from new then it must have it to pass the NCT(ie if your car fails the NCT test on an ABS light then you cannot just remove the complete system to pass the test), the NCT test have guideline sheets on all cars and there ABS systems, it states the ABS system make and the warning light sequence ie light illuminates for 3 seconds when ignition switched on and then switches off, if your vehicle doesnt follow the correct ABS light sequence then it (should) fails.

According to your first statement "No car can fail the NCT if something is not present" if I roll up for an NCT test with absolutly no brake system or absolutly no lighting system fitted then my car should still pass as long as everything else is ok ???

The problem lies with the tester's, generally if the ABS light is not permanantly illuminated indicating an actual live fault with the system then they wrongly don't check for the presence of the system.

ianobrien

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

Wrong, if a vehicle type approved by the manufacturer with ABS from new then it must have it to pass the NCT(ie if your car fails the NCT test on an ABS light then you cannot just remove the complete system to pass the test), the NCT test have guideline sheets on all cars and there ABS systems, it states the ABS system make and the warning light sequence ie light illuminates for 3 seconds when ignition switched on and then switches off, if your vehicle doesnt follow the correct ABS light sequence then it (should) fails.

According to your first statement "No car can fail the NCT if something is not present" if I roll up for an NCT test with absolutly no brake system or absolutly no lighting system fitted then my car should still pass as long as everything else is ok ???

The problem lies with the tester's, generally if the ABS light is not permanantly illuminated indicating an actual live fault with the system then they wrongly don't check for the presence of the system.

Do you want the names, phone numbers of the owners and reg no's of cars that have passed the NCT that has had the ABS removed? I know of Subaru Impreza's, Peugeot 406SRi's and a Nissan Primera night navigation cars that passed the NCT with the ABS completely removed?

As said earlier, the NCT can only go on the manual and what's in the car. I've had cars pass the NCT that had no rear seats, race seats and harnesses (no seat belts), no rear fog lights and so forth.

As for having no brakes, don't be silly! The NCT manual specifies brake efficiency as a percentage of car weight and there is no "if fitted" for the brakes. Quite an amount of the NCT manual is "if fitted"....

gofaster_s13

ianobrien wrote: »

Do you want the names, phone numbers of the owners and reg no's of cars that have passed the NCT that has had the ABS removed? I know of Subaru Impreza's, Peugeot 406SRi's and a Nissan Primera night navigation cars that passed the NCT with the ABS completely removed?

As said earlier, the NCT can only go on the manual and what's in the car. I've had cars pass the NCT that had no rear seats, race seats and harnesses (no seat belts), no rear fog lights and so forth.

As for having no brakes, don't be silly! The NCT manual specifies brake efficiency as a percentage of car weight and there is no "if fitted" for the brakes. Quite an amount of the NCT manual is "if fitted"....

As I said in an earlier post just because the NCT tester didnt "cop" that there should have been an ABS system fitted doesnt mean the car should have passed, nine 95% of the time if you have a car with an ABS fault if youe remove the warning bulb the car will pass. As a tester I can assure you that when "if fitted" is used as a criteria for a test item it means if fitted by the manufacturer, not if fitted at time of test, this is something that is often overlooked by testers.

ianobrien

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

As I said in an earlier post just because the NCT tester didnt "cop" that there should have been an ABS system fitted doesnt mean the car should have passed, nine 95% of the time if you have a car with an ABS fault if youe remove the warning bulb the car will pass. As a tester I can assure you that when "if fitted" is used as a criteria for a test item it means if fitted by the manufacturer, not if fitted at time of test, this is something that is often overlooked by testers.

If you are an NCT tester, may I recommend some training into section 6 of the NCT manual. There it says ABS if fitted, not "fitted by the manufacturer". It also mentions about warning lights on the dash.

You see, ABS is not a legal requirement. Also, quite a few other testers I have spoken to have a different interpretation of "if fitted" to you. Also, All R1 to R3 and S2000 cars are based on cars that have ABS fitted, but FIA rules has ABS banned. Consequently,these have no ABS fitted. These cars have full EU type approval so I reckon you are slightly wrong there.

It's because of this reason that I always have a copy of the NCT manual on the seat when I send a car for the NCT. To be fair, I've only had to consult it once in the centre with regard to a failure.

corktina

darragh o meara wrote: »

It's been talked about over on rallyforums.com quiet a bit with no real solution. In the north you must have mot and tax to rally up there and they expect the same for southern reg cars. Was caught out a few years back when I went up to do a northern rally but we were able to get around it by swapping the plates off the recce car (same make/model as rallycar) highly illegal but I wasn't willing to loose the entry fee. I tried nct the car when I got back and it failed on a few items.


.

swapping the plates over meant you had no valid insurance as well as no valid NCT....just as well you didnt hit some poor onlooker wasnt it

gofaster_s13

ianobrien wrote: »

If you are an NCT tester, may I recommend some training into section 6 of the NCT manual. There it says ABS if fitted, not "fitted by the manufacturer". It also mentions about warning lights on the dash.

You see, ABS is not a legal requirement. Also, quite a few other testers I have spoken to have a different interpretation of "if fitted" to you. Also, All R1 to R3 and S2000 cars are based on cars that have ABS fitted, but FIA rules has ABS banned. Consequently,these have no ABS fitted. These cars have full EU type approval so I reckon you are slightly wrong there.

It's because of this reason that I always have a copy of the NCT manual on the seat when I send a car for the NCT. To be fair, I've only had to consult it once in the centre with regard to a failure.

D*****,



Thank you for your e-mail. While it’s true that the NCT manual Method of Testing includes a statement , “If the vehicle is fitted with a brake anti-lock system, check the warning lamp” it also includes a statement on page 5 in the Introduction that “Any modification to a vehicle which has safety implications must be approved in writing by the vehicle manufacturer.”



It is not acceptable to remove the ABS system on a vehicle that was manufactured to include the system. If you have further questions about this, please contact us.



Regards,



Bill Barry

Engineer

Vehicle Standards







Teach Chluain Fearta, Sráid Bhríde, Baile Locha Riach, Co. na Gaillimhe

Clonfert House, Loughrea , Co Galway

LoCall: 1890 44 33 11

tel: +353-91- 872600 fax: +353-91- 872660

www.rsa.ie




I had this argument about "if fitted" before with the RSA, if fitted means if fitted by the manufacturer, not if fitted at time of test, the vehicles you know that passed with the ABS system removed were incorrectly tested and should not have passed, Not being up to speed on the rally cars that are EU type approved, I can only assume that they have 2 sets of type approvals, one as a road car and another set homologated as a rally car. A manufacturer will not give you a letter stating that a vehicle meets their standards with the ABS removed unless type approved as such, The above is the reply I received from the RSA about removing ABS.

BTW I consider my training to be well up to speed;)

gofaster_s13

Just as an add-on to this, I was talking to an RSA inspector about this this morning, he said that if a vehicle(car, van, jeep, trailer, truck etc) had ABS from new then it couldnt be passed unless accompanied by a letter from the vehicle manufacturer(not your local friendly dealer) stating the changes to the vehicle and the new standards that it conform's to.

cossiedevil22b

I know this is an old thread but on my google search on weld in roll cages this came up as i am building a replica of a wrc rally for show use and will need to be road legal this is no issue in the north or uk but as living in the rep of ireland have made sure that all i do is legal.I rang the 1890 412 413 number then was put on to inquiries where i was told after a 10 minute wait so she could verify the answer that yes a weld in roll cage is not a nct fail aslong as its got one of either fia msa cert or prove of professioally fitting.I ask for prove of this for myself in writing or email so i can take it to the test centre when being tested and got it this morning from nct stating.


Dear Sir,


In responce to your query I can confirm that the welding roll cage is acceptable