NCT on a rally car?

R0C

Has anyone here ever tried to put a rally car through an NCT?

Had entered for a rally in the North but have now been told I can't enter as my car does not have an NCT.

The car has bucket seats, roll cage, 6 point harnesses, modified engine, etc. I can't imagine there is any way it would get through an NCT.

But if people are entering rallies in the North, then obviously others are getting NCTs on their cars.

I have tried e-mailing and calling the NCT people but they have been unable to provide me with an answer on this.

Does anyone know?

Tigger

every irish rally car i have ever seen has had a yellow plate

you can tax and mot them much easier in the north afaik

R0C

Mine's on Irish plates unfortunately, but it's something to look into I suppose..

Tigger

put it on yellow plates and mot it i'm pretty sure thats how you do it

try rally.ie for more definate answers

Tigger

Tigger wrote: »

put it on yellow plates and mot it i'm pretty sure thats how you do it

try rally.ie for more definate answers

Surely a NI address is required for that. Southern folk with NI reg cars are a revenue target.

R0C

Tigger wrote: »

put it on yellow plates and mot it i'm pretty sure thats how you do it

I'd prefer to have kept it on the plates it's on, but I guess that may not be an option given no-one at the NCT centre seems to know anything about it.

Tigger wrote: »

try rally.ie for more definate answers

I haven't seen anything about it on rally.ie

enviro

R0C wrote: »

Has anyone here ever tried to put a rally car through an NCT?

Had entered for a rally in the North but have now been told I can't enter as my car does not have an NCT.

The car has bucket seats, roll cage, 6 point harnesses, modified engine, etc. I can't imagine there is any way it would get through an NCT.

But if people are entering rallies in the North, then obviously others are getting NCTs on their cars.

I have tried e-mailing and calling the NCT people but they have been unable to provide me with an answer on this.

Does anyone know?

I know of a car that passed the NCT with bucket seats, roll cage, harnesses and modified engine (500+ bhp), although it was a drift car.

The nct is a check of safety elements, road worthiness and emissions.

IIRC rally cars often drive on the main roads in between stages, going from the finish point to the start of the next stage, so they must have a nct to be legal...

Book the car in for the test is my advice and see how it gets on.

R0C

enviro wrote: »

I know of a car that passed the NCT with bucket seats, roll cage, harnesses and modified engine (500+ bhp), although it was a drift car.

The nct is a check of safety elements, road worthiness and emissions.

IIRC rally cars often drive on the main roads in between stages, going from the finish point to the start of the next stage, so they must have a nct to be legal...

Book the car in for the test is my advice and see how it gets on.

Interesting to hear that. Thanks!

I guess I'll have to just go ahead and book a test so and see. I'm a long way from NCT centre so would have liked to be sure they'd test it before going there but as they're unable to answer my questions, I'll have to just turn up and see.

rubensni

They have to give reasons for failing you so you can retest. Can't fail you for mods unless they're unsafe, so there's a good chance you'd pass.

R0C

rubensni wrote: »

They have to give reasons for failing you so you can retest. Can't fail you for mods unless they're unsafe, so there's a good chance you'd pass.

But what about noise levels, brakes that need to be heated up, etc?

enviro

R0C wrote: »

But what about noise levels, brakes that need to be heated up, etc?

IMO emissions and noise will be an issue.

R0C

enviro wrote: »

IMO emissions and noise will be an issue.

That's what I would've thought.

Also have a hydraulic handbrake..

enviro

R0C wrote: »

That's what I would've thought.

Also have a hydraulic handbrake..

Should do a good job of holding the car on a hill so

Seriously though, that would only enhance the handbrake, they cant fail you based on that!

Lots of what ifs relating to motorsport vehicles and the NCT, you will only know for sure once you get the test sheet after the examination. Good luck with it

R0C

enviro wrote: »

Should do a good job of holding the car on a hill so

Seriously though, that would only enhance the handbrake, they cant fail you based on that!

It's like having no handbrake.. doesn't lock on, have to tie it with a bungee cord to keep it pressed on.

I'm sure they'll love that..

enviro

R0C wrote: »

It's like having no handbrake.. doesn't lock on, have to tie it with a bungee cord to keep it pressed on.

I'm sure they'll love that..

Oh right, ha, that's another one to add to the list so!

Tigger

RoverJames wrote: »

Surely a NI address is required for that. Southern folk with NI reg cars are a revenue target.

its a rally car not a daily driver

R0C

enviro wrote: »

Oh right, ha, that's another one to add to the list so!

Following a phone call, I e-mailed them a full list of all of the issues I see with the car passing an NCT. That was a week ago. I never received a response from them.

I haven't checked Motorsport Ireland handbook, will get onto it.

Tigger

R0C wrote: »

I'd prefer to have kept it on the plates it's on, but I guess that may not be an option given no-one at the NCT centre seems to know anything about it.



I haven't seen anything about it on rally.ie

probably have to pm rather than openly discuss it

h3000

Hey ROC, I'm not too sure what part of the country you are in but you should give EARS Motorsport in Mallow Co. Cork a ring. They supply parts and accessories to the motorsport community and do pre NCT/DOE checks for cars in general. I'm sure they may be able to help you with the information you are looking for or if not point you in the right direction. I haven't dealt with them directly but they are meant to be nice to deal with.

http://www.ears.ie/index.php

ShadowHearth

Hmmm... Don't all race cars have loud exaust, no cats, no horn, brake pads that need to be heated up etc?

I thinks it's one of those laws which is just there, but no one knows what to do. Not owners and nor even nct workers...

Maybe it's special nct?

Track cars can have no nct.

Plane

I'm not 100% sure but as far as I know Rally cars do an NCT. But the NCT they do is not the same a that of a standard road car. I'm not up to speed on the differences but one off the top of my head is a car with a bolt in cage passes the NCT where as a welded in cage is an NCT fail.
Rally cars obviously mostly have welded in.

R0C

Plane wrote: »

I'm not 100% sure but as far as I know Rally cars do an NCT. But the NCT they do is not the same a that of a standard road car. I'm not up to speed on the differences but one off the top of my head is a car with a bolt in cage passes the NCT where as a welded in cage is an NCT fail.
Rally cars obviously mostly have welded in.

Would be curious if anyone has any more info on this topic of a different NCT to road cars.

There are lots of Irish rally cars out there partaking in N.I. rallies so somehow these guys are putting them through NCTs, so hoping someone who's done it will see this thread.

ShadowHearth

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Track cars that are brought to the track on trailers dont have NCT/Tax/Insurance because they are being used on private property. Race cars will be far more safe that your average car due to the regs required to race. But they will normally be a lot louder that an average car (that said there is still noise level limits imposed on race cars).

I know about safety on proper race cars. If I am not mistaken: such things like safety belts have expire dates. Special regulations to fuel systems. Outside valve to close fuel tank etc.

The only thing I could see is a special nct.

Like mentioned above, I really hope someone comes and explains it all.

Toon--soldier

R0C wrote: »

Has anyone here ever tried to put a rally car through an NCT?

Had entered for a rally in the North but have now been told I can't enter as my car does not have an NCT.

The car has bucket seats, roll cage, 6 point harnesses, modified engine, etc. I can't imagine there is any way it would get through an NCT.

But if people are entering rallies in the North, then obviously others are getting NCTs on their cars.

I have tried e-mailing and calling the NCT people but they have been unable to provide me with an answer on this.

Does anyone know?

Which Rally is you have entered in?

Rallys dont have to have an nct, before each event the have to go through Scrutiny, in which the expiry dates of seat belts, seats and fire extinguishers(hand held and plumbed in) are checked. They also check the the battery cut off switch is working, that the extinguishers nozzle is correctly loacted in the engine bay along with the general condition of the rollcage. The dirver and co-drivers race suits and helmets and hans devices are in good condition free from damage.


This applys to closed stage rallying as far as im aware, im not sure is it the the same fo night navs etc.

R0C

Toon--soldier wrote: »

Which Rally is you have entered in?

Rallys dont have to have an nct, before each event the have to go through Scrutiny, in which the expiry dates of seat belts, seats and fire extinguishers(hand held and plumbed in) are checked. They also check the the battery cut off switch is working, that the extinguishers nozzle is correctly loacted in the engine bay along with the general condition of the rollcage. The dirver and co-drivers race suits and helmets and hans devices are in good condition free from damage.


This applys to closed stage rallying as far as im aware, im not sure is it the the same fo night navs etc.

I entered for a stages rally in N.I.

I know about scrutiny and other standard rally requirements. This is separate to the standard scrutiny, I have been contacted by the rally organisation and told that an NCT will be required for my car to enter the rally.

The NCT is not necessary for rallies in the Republic but seems to be a requirement for (some?) N.I. rallies.

Toon--soldier

R0C wrote: »

I entered for a stages rally in N.I.

I know about scrutiny and other standard rally requirements. This is separate to the standard scrutiny, I have been contacted by the rally organisation and told that an NCT will be required for my car to enter the rally.

The NCT is not necessary for rallies in the Republic but seems to be a requirement for (some?) N.I. rallies.

Beats me so! Tell them you cant get a test before the event, and that you'll have to pull the enrty if they wont let you start without it, with entries so low these days they'd problay let you start.

R0C

Toon--soldier wrote: »

Beats me so! Tell them you cant get a test before the event, and that you'll have to pull the enrty if they wont let you start without it, with entries so low these days they'd problay let you start.

I have already had to pull the entry having paid my entry fee, I was given no choice in the matter due to not having an NCT.

I will receive full refund of entry fee.

Big Nasty

Surely there's a rally forum that will have more info on this, or maybe some of the lads on Octane?

darragh o meara

It's been talked about over on rallyforums.com quiet a bit with no real solution. In the north you must have mot and tax to rally up there and they expect the same for southern reg cars. Was caught out a few years back when I went up to do a northern rally but we were able to get around it by swapping the plates off the recce car (same make/model as rallycar) highly illegal but I wasn't willing to loose the entry fee. I tried nct the car when I got back and it failed on a few items.


List
Seatbelts. Web though they were 100s times betters than inertia belts the nct said no.

Brakes. Like all rallycars mine needed to be heated up and because it had no servo assist the peddle was pure s hit e and so were the brakes.

Handbrake. Same as stated before it didn't stay locked on and that is apparently another failure.

Suspension. Machine said it was too hard.

Rollcage. Can't remember exactly why that failed but it did.

Solution : only do Irish rallies or what I did was bought a uk reg car and got it registered to me at a mates address, bring the car up north once a year for mot and tax. They're better setup for testing rallycars up there plus 50 quid in the right direction could make any fault go away ( I don't condone bribery and all my rallycars were always in 110% excellent condition, but if you failed on something not so major it's a long drive home and back up again for the sake if five mins retest)

R0C

darragh o meara wrote: »

It's been talked about over on rallyforums.com quiet a bit with no real solution. In the north you must have mot and tax to rally up there and they expect the same for southern reg cars. Was caught out a few years back when I went up to do a northern rally but we were able to get around it by swapping the plates off the recce car (same make/model as rallycar) highly illegal but I wasn't willing to loose the entry fee. I tried nct the car when I got back and it failed on a few items.


List
Seatbelts. Web though they were 100s times betters than inertia belts the nct said no.

Brakes. Like all rallycars mine needed to be heated up and because it had no servo assist the peddle was pure s hit e and so were the brakes.

Handbrake. Same as stated before it didn't stay locked on and that is apparently another failure.

Suspension. Machine said it was too hard.

Rollcage. Can't remember exactly why that failed but it did.

Solution : only do Irish rallies or what I did was bought a uk reg car and got it registered to me at a mates address, bring the car up north once a year for mot and tax. They're better setup for testing rallycars up there plus 50 quid in the right direction could make any fault go away ( I don't condone bribery and all my rallycars were always in 110% excellent condition, but if you failed on something not so major it's a long drive home and back up again for the sake if five mins retest)

Thanks very much for the informative advice, Darragh. Interesting to hear what you failed on.

That's exactly the info I was looking for.

Seems it's a lot easier to be illegal than to try and be above board. I'll just refrain from entering any more rallies in the north, and though I'm happy to NCT and tax the car, I won't be bothering to try any further as it just doesn't seem to be possible in ROI.

gofaster_s13

Toon--soldier wrote: »

Which Rally is you have entered in?

Rallys dont have to have an nct, before each event the have to go through Scrutiny, in which the expiry dates of seat belts, seats and fire extinguishers(hand held and plumbed in) are checked. They also check the the battery cut off switch is working, that the extinguishers nozzle is correctly loacted in the engine bay along with the general condition of the rollcage. The dirver and co-drivers race suits and helmets and hans devices are in good condition free from damage.
.

Scrutineering in this country is a fiddle, its all buddy-buddy, I know you so thats a pass sort of situation.

I've DOE tested several 205/306/civic etc rally cars which were registered commercial due to having no back seat's, never had any issue with suspension being too hard and whoever mapped the car should be able to get it through the emissions test no bother if they're any good.

JimmyCrackCorn

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

Scrutineering in this country is a fiddle, its all buddy-buddy, I know you so thats a pass sort of situation.

I've DOE tested several 205/306/civic etc rally cars which were registered commercial due to having no back seat's, never had any issue with suspension being too hard and whoever mapped the car should be able to get it through the emissions test no bother if they're any good.

As a gotya You may fail on the SRS airbags and ABS light regulations.

Other than that no issues.

The UK mot has an exemption for deliberate modifications provided they are not unsafe in the testers opinion. Here we have a by the book NCT. (im not allowed to remove ABS unit)

ianobrien

First things first. No car can fail the NCT if something is not present. If the ABS is removed completely (as it haas to be for a rally car) the car can not fail on it. I know of some competition cars that have passed with the ABS removed. Also, it can not fail on suspension being "too hard". The NCT only measures the imbalance on an axle, that's all!

As for seats/belts, I've had night nav cars pass the NCT that had full competition seats and belts fitted no problem. if you read the NCT manual carefully, it does not say that the seats and belts must be OEM. Also, there is nothing in the NCT manual about roll cages either!

Rally cars can pass the NCT. I know of some that have no problems at all. The only problem was Manta 400's and the width of the rear tyres being too wide of the brake rollers!

The main problems are with brakes and emissions. The easiest thing is to swap the pads for road pads (they're cheap enough) and for emissions, if it won't pass (given that a lot of competition engines idle at 2k or above), maybe look at changing plugs and turning down the idle.

If the rally car is over 30 years old, it's exempt from the NCT anyway. All mk2 Escorts are exempt. If it's a Civic, there would be no problem in getting it passed. Swap in a set of pads and you're off!

gofaster_s13

ianobrien wrote: »

First things first. No car can fail the NCT if something is not present. If the ABS is removed completely (as it haas to be for a rally car) the car can not fail on it. I know of some competition cars that have passed with the ABS removed. Also, it can not fail on suspension being "too hard". The NCT only measures the imbalance on an axle, that's all!

Wrong, if a vehicle type approved by the manufacturer with ABS from new then it must have it to pass the NCT(ie if your car fails the NCT test on an ABS light then you cannot just remove the complete system to pass the test), the NCT test have guideline sheets on all cars and there ABS systems, it states the ABS system make and the warning light sequence ie light illuminates for 3 seconds when ignition switched on and then switches off, if your vehicle doesnt follow the correct ABS light sequence then it (should) fails.

According to your first statement "No car can fail the NCT if something is not present" if I roll up for an NCT test with absolutly no brake system or absolutly no lighting system fitted then my car should still pass as long as everything else is ok ???

The problem lies with the tester's, generally if the ABS light is not permanantly illuminated indicating an actual live fault with the system then they wrongly don't check for the presence of the system.

ianobrien

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

Wrong, if a vehicle type approved by the manufacturer with ABS from new then it must have it to pass the NCT(ie if your car fails the NCT test on an ABS light then you cannot just remove the complete system to pass the test), the NCT test have guideline sheets on all cars and there ABS systems, it states the ABS system make and the warning light sequence ie light illuminates for 3 seconds when ignition switched on and then switches off, if your vehicle doesnt follow the correct ABS light sequence then it (should) fails.

According to your first statement "No car can fail the NCT if something is not present" if I roll up for an NCT test with absolutly no brake system or absolutly no lighting system fitted then my car should still pass as long as everything else is ok ???

The problem lies with the tester's, generally if the ABS light is not permanantly illuminated indicating an actual live fault with the system then they wrongly don't check for the presence of the system.

Do you want the names, phone numbers of the owners and reg no's of cars that have passed the NCT that has had the ABS removed? I know of Subaru Impreza's, Peugeot 406SRi's and a Nissan Primera night navigation cars that passed the NCT with the ABS completely removed?

As said earlier, the NCT can only go on the manual and what's in the car. I've had cars pass the NCT that had no rear seats, race seats and harnesses (no seat belts), no rear fog lights and so forth.

As for having no brakes, don't be silly! The NCT manual specifies brake efficiency as a percentage of car weight and there is no "if fitted" for the brakes. Quite an amount of the NCT manual is "if fitted"....

gofaster_s13

ianobrien wrote: »

Do you want the names, phone numbers of the owners and reg no's of cars that have passed the NCT that has had the ABS removed? I know of Subaru Impreza's, Peugeot 406SRi's and a Nissan Primera night navigation cars that passed the NCT with the ABS completely removed?

As said earlier, the NCT can only go on the manual and what's in the car. I've had cars pass the NCT that had no rear seats, race seats and harnesses (no seat belts), no rear fog lights and so forth.

As for having no brakes, don't be silly! The NCT manual specifies brake efficiency as a percentage of car weight and there is no "if fitted" for the brakes. Quite an amount of the NCT manual is "if fitted"....

As I said in an earlier post just because the NCT tester didnt "cop" that there should have been an ABS system fitted doesnt mean the car should have passed, nine 95% of the time if you have a car with an ABS fault if youe remove the warning bulb the car will pass. As a tester I can assure you that when "if fitted" is used as a criteria for a test item it means if fitted by the manufacturer, not if fitted at time of test, this is something that is often overlooked by testers.

ianobrien

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

As I said in an earlier post just because the NCT tester didnt "cop" that there should have been an ABS system fitted doesnt mean the car should have passed, nine 95% of the time if you have a car with an ABS fault if youe remove the warning bulb the car will pass. As a tester I can assure you that when "if fitted" is used as a criteria for a test item it means if fitted by the manufacturer, not if fitted at time of test, this is something that is often overlooked by testers.

If you are an NCT tester, may I recommend some training into section 6 of the NCT manual. There it says ABS if fitted, not "fitted by the manufacturer". It also mentions about warning lights on the dash.

You see, ABS is not a legal requirement. Also, quite a few other testers I have spoken to have a different interpretation of "if fitted" to you. Also, All R1 to R3 and S2000 cars are based on cars that have ABS fitted, but FIA rules has ABS banned. Consequently,these have no ABS fitted. These cars have full EU type approval so I reckon you are slightly wrong there.

It's because of this reason that I always have a copy of the NCT manual on the seat when I send a car for the NCT. To be fair, I've only had to consult it once in the centre with regard to a failure.

corktina

darragh o meara wrote: »

It's been talked about over on rallyforums.com quiet a bit with no real solution. In the north you must have mot and tax to rally up there and they expect the same for southern reg cars. Was caught out a few years back when I went up to do a northern rally but we were able to get around it by swapping the plates off the recce car (same make/model as rallycar) highly illegal but I wasn't willing to loose the entry fee. I tried nct the car when I got back and it failed on a few items.


.

swapping the plates over meant you had no valid insurance as well as no valid NCT....just as well you didnt hit some poor onlooker wasnt it

gofaster_s13

ianobrien wrote: »

If you are an NCT tester, may I recommend some training into section 6 of the NCT manual. There it says ABS if fitted, not "fitted by the manufacturer". It also mentions about warning lights on the dash.

You see, ABS is not a legal requirement. Also, quite a few other testers I have spoken to have a different interpretation of "if fitted" to you. Also, All R1 to R3 and S2000 cars are based on cars that have ABS fitted, but FIA rules has ABS banned. Consequently,these have no ABS fitted. These cars have full EU type approval so I reckon you are slightly wrong there.

It's because of this reason that I always have a copy of the NCT manual on the seat when I send a car for the NCT. To be fair, I've only had to consult it once in the centre with regard to a failure.

D*****,



Thank you for your e-mail. While it’s true that the NCT manual Method of Testing includes a statement , “If the vehicle is fitted with a brake anti-lock system, check the warning lamp” it also includes a statement on page 5 in the Introduction that “Any modification to a vehicle which has safety implications must be approved in writing by the vehicle manufacturer.”



It is not acceptable to remove the ABS system on a vehicle that was manufactured to include the system. If you have further questions about this, please contact us.



Regards,



Bill Barry

Engineer

Vehicle Standards







Teach Chluain Fearta, Sráid Bhríde, Baile Locha Riach, Co. na Gaillimhe

Clonfert House, Loughrea , Co Galway

LoCall: 1890 44 33 11

tel: +353-91- 872600 fax: +353-91- 872660

www.rsa.ie




I had this argument about "if fitted" before with the RSA, if fitted means if fitted by the manufacturer, not if fitted at time of test, the vehicles you know that passed with the ABS system removed were incorrectly tested and should not have passed, Not being up to speed on the rally cars that are EU type approved, I can only assume that they have 2 sets of type approvals, one as a road car and another set homologated as a rally car. A manufacturer will not give you a letter stating that a vehicle meets their standards with the ABS removed unless type approved as such, The above is the reply I received from the RSA about removing ABS.

BTW I consider my training to be well up to speed;)

gofaster_s13

Just as an add-on to this, I was talking to an RSA inspector about this this morning, he said that if a vehicle(car, van, jeep, trailer, truck etc) had ABS from new then it couldnt be passed unless accompanied by a letter from the vehicle manufacturer(not your local friendly dealer) stating the changes to the vehicle and the new standards that it conform's to.

cossiedevil22b

I know this is an old thread but on my google search on weld in roll cages this came up as i am building a replica of a wrc rally for show use and will need to be road legal this is no issue in the north or uk but as living in the rep of ireland have made sure that all i do is legal.I rang the 1890 412 413 number then was put on to inquiries where i was told after a 10 minute wait so she could verify the answer that yes a weld in roll cage is not a nct fail aslong as its got one of either fia msa cert or prove of professioally fitting.I ask for prove of this for myself in writing or email so i can take it to the test centre when being tested and got it this morning from nct stating.


Dear Sir,


In responce to your query I can confirm that the welding roll cage is acceptable