[Article]Motorists face new charges as number of toll roads to double

vectra

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Oh. I thought the person was from Douglas.

Even so,
If the poster was from Douglas....Mahon is only 2 minutes down the road and still not have to use the J.L. Tunnel

ardmacha

40% of the population is now living in one-offs in the country.

This figure is very very suspect, Ireland is more urbanised than ever.

Source?

Ireland has always had a dispersed population, it is not becoming more dispersed.

Forget one off dwellings, even if you are living bang in the middle of a town that should be well serviced due to the national spatial strategy and national primary routes you'll have a bus service that has nether the frequency nor operating hours to make it a reasonable alternative.

Exactly. If you live in a housing estate in Dundalk (say) there will be no public transport to reach the railway station and the town is big enough that it is too far to walk.

billyboy01

Ah come on people, if you can afford a car! You can afford to pay a few extra little tolls! The Irish FreeState needs the toll revenue to run the County Councils! We are so lucky to live in a country thats provides a standard of living that allows poeple to own a private car!:)

Hogzy

billyboy01 wrote: »

Ah come on people, if you can afford a car! You can afford to pay a few extra little tolls! The Irish FreeState needs the toll revenue to run the County Councils! We are so lucky to live in a country thats provides a standard of living that allows poeple to own a private car!:)

1937 has come and passed my friend

billyboy01

Hogzy wrote: »

1937 has come and passed my friend

Not for me, my national indebted friend!;)

Hogzy

billyboy01 wrote: »

Not for me, my national indebted friend!;)

Do share your time travel methods. Perhaps i could go back, do the lotto and return minted?

maxextz

they admitted a couple of weeks ago that they have been over charging on the drogheda toll are we getting our money refunded?

what are we paying road tax for.greedy bastards

superflyninja

billyboy01 wrote: »

Ah come on people, if you can afford a car! You can afford to pay a few extra little tolls! The Irish FreeState needs the toll revenue to run the County Councils! We are so lucky to live in a country thats provides a standard of living that allows poeple to own a private car!:)

I do wish there are such things as sarcasm tags.

billyboy01

Pay the tolls or dont use the roads, Simple! If you dont like it grin and bare it for the nation once again!:) In debt!

The EU, UK, IMF and bond holders have to get there money back!

Most Paddy's were not thinking about that, when they were swanning around in over price German cars!

Now its pay back time, Tolls, Higher Motortax, Fuel increases! just to name a few, and a lot more to come!;)

Guy:Incognito

maxextz wrote: »

what are we paying road tax for.

Your not.But sure dont bother reading the thread or anything.

markpb

alpahaeagle wrote: »

I live in Laois and work in Sandyford.

There's your first problem

youcrazyjesus!

Great, so going from Ennis or Galway to Limerick or vice versa for a bit of shopping might cost 7.20 in tolls maybe even 10.40 if you're heading to the Crescent! That will get the local economy going for sure!

Sooner or later, and it'll probably be after we default when economic activity grinds to an absolute halt in this country, the powers that be - councils, politicians, public service providers - will realise that the heavily utilised "let's load the average man on the street, the car driver, small businesses and households with ever increasing costs which head toward the punitive" solution to problems, without due regard for their consequences, was one of the fundamental reasons we stayed in a depression and defaulted. Somebody at some point might introduce he concept of macroeconomics to the wasters who run this country. Right now all they know is accountancy.

If these new tolls are brought it will change my driving habits for sure and a lot of other people I know. Partly out of protest, mainly out of cost but it will change a lot and instead of receiving a couple of tolls twice a week they'll be getting a couple of tolls once a month instead and for some things I'll be spending more of my money online and not in the local economy. I pay huge road tax, massive amounts of tax on petrol and tolls and now they want more and more and more...and the notion of old tolling national roads is disgusting.

They seem to be taking about a usage toll for the M50, not for the motorway system, so through the geography lottery you could be paying punitive tolls or none at all.....the bottleneck might make a roaring comeback in some places.

youcrazyjesus!

markpb wrote: »

There's your first problem

The man says he has been let go from jobs in companies which go bust. Should he uproot his family every time he gets a 6 month contract?

Some people need to drive long distances in this country, admittedly for petty reasons such as work and a love life, but they do need to drive. Rolling your eyes at it is stupid.

n97 mini

ardmacha wrote: »

This figure is very very suspect, Ireland is more urbanised than ever.

2006 Census shows 33% living in one-offs.

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/StatisticsandRegularPublications/HousingStatistics/FileDownLoad,20957,en.pdf

In 2010 almost half (48.1%) of all housing PP was one-offs.

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/construction/current/planperm.pdf

The 2011 Census will show about 40% are in one-offs, and that figure is generally increasing.

Hogzy

n97 mini wrote: »

2006 Census shows 33% living in one-offs.

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/StatisticsandRegularPublications/HousingStatistics/FileDownLoad,20957,en.pdf

In 2010 almost half (48.1%) of all housing PP was one-offs.

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/construction/current/planperm.pdf

The 2011 Census will show about 40% are in one-offs, and that figure is generally increasing.

What is a One Off defined as?
Is it just a house that is not part of a housing estate?

n97 mini

Hogzy wrote: »

What is a One Off defined as?
Is it just a house that is not part of a housing estate?

From the first document I quoted:

Close to one third of housing stock is made up of one-off housing, that is,
detached housing in open countryside

billyboy01

So does this mean, that workers will now be entitled to a Tolls allowance from there Employers! To get to and from work!

slimjimmc

jhegarty wrote: »

Amount of motorway ?

All look like N roads to me.

I may be wrong but I heard something about motorways are still technically N roads, so the M9 is still technically the N9 (the old road was demoted to R status so technically can't be the N9 anymore).

billyboy01 wrote: »

So does this mean, that workers will now be entitled to a Tolls allowance from there Employers! To get to and from work!

That's a vivid imagination you have there billyboy01 Are you already entitled to Motor tax, fuel, tyres, maintenance, insurance, and parking allowances?

ardmacha

2006 Census shows 33% living in one-offs.

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publication...d,20957,en.pdf

it doesn't say anything about the number of people living in one-offs. it says
"Close to one third of housing stock is made up of one-off housing"

Close to probably means less than, so about 30% of houses. Even if you assume that the population is equally distributed in these (unlikely with holiday homes, etc.) then your original statement of 40% was inflated by one third. Not so bad by boards standards, I suppose.

Yes the proportion of planning permissions is more than the proportion, but there are feck all houses of any sort being built at present so the proportion is not changing in any appreciable way.

The debate is immaterial to this thread in any case. The proposal is for tolls on main routes which aggregate traffic from towns, cites and rural dwellers alike.

200motels

Ludo wrote: »

So potentially 4 tolls when driving from Cork to Shannon which I do every fortnight (if you avoid cork city center madness by using tunnel).

1. Lee Tunnel
2. Mallow
3. Croom
4. Shannon Tunnel

The cork - limerick road is the worst road between cities in the country and they are suggesting 4 tolls??? WTF.

No the road between Waterford and Limerick is the worst road between two cities.

Eric Cartman

200motels wrote: »

No the road between Waterford and Limerick is the worst road between two cities.

without a doubt mate

200motels

We have a Toll bridge here in Waterford and since it was opened it has only got one third of the traffic it thought it would get, tolls don't work especialy in the worst recession of all time. I for one don't believe the story and if by chance it's true I'll be getting on to Gilmore and co to take there finger out or I'll leave the Labour Party and there's a few more members who would do the same.

n97 mini

ardmacha wrote: »

The debate is immaterial to this thread in any case.

Well it is really, but hang on for the 2011 census results. There has been a rural explosion in the last 3 to 4 years.

dr.fuzzenstein

billyboy01 wrote: »

Pay the tolls or dont use the roads, Simple! If you dont like it grin and bare it for the nation once again!:) In debt!

The EU, UK, IMF and bond holders have to get there money back!

Most Paddy's were not thinking about that, when they were swanning around in over price German cars!

Now its pay back time, Tolls, Higher Motortax, Fuel increases! just to name a few, and a lot more to come!;)

Other option:
Go back to the 80's where codgery was the order of the day.
Green diesel from now on, in ancient, non-NCT'd car, driving back roads only, with "Tax in Post" sticker where tax disc should be, when stopped by the law give 'em a bit of the auld "Ahsure, be grand, bejaysus, she'll be fine, sucking diesel, ahahahaha, begorrah!" while wringing every last mile plus at least a 1000 more out of tires, brakes, and the rest of the car, only going for THE cheapest 3rd part insurance in the market regardless of extras offered, do an Orish service (half a litre of oil a month without bothering to read the dipstick).
Not because we want to, but because it's that or quit my job, arrive at the dole office, kick the door open and shout "WHERE'S MY FREE MONEY!", sell the car, buy a playstation and live on the dole and nixers.
We all WANT to make an honest living, but if there's none to be made, we just have to make a dishonest one.

billyboy01

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Other option:
Go back to the 80's where codgery was the order of the day.
Green diesel from now on, in ancient, non-NCT'd car, driving back roads only, with "Tax in Post" sticker where tax disc should be, when stopped by the law give 'em a bit of the auld "Ahsure, be grand, bejaysus, she'll be fine, sucking diesel, ahahahaha, begorrah!" while wringing every last mile plus at least a 1000 more out of tires, brakes, and the rest of the car, only going for THE cheapest 3rd part insurance in the market regardless of extras offered, do an Orish service (half a litre of oil a month without bothering to read the dipstick).
Not because we want to, but because it's that or quit my job, arrive at the dole office, kick the door open and shout "WHERE'S MY FREE MONEY!", sell the car, buy a playstation and live on the dole and nixers.
We all WANT to make an honest living, but if there's none to be made, we just have to make a dishonest one.

Those Shenanigans never stopped! Just more of it due to penal taxation!

I personally can't wait for the starting price of 40c per junction toll to be implemented on the M50! Oh then the fun will start on the rat runs throught housing estates, back roads and lanes!

whiterebel

This is about the 5th time that those twats in the NRA have taken a run at the JL Tunnel. It must be really driving them nuts, because they have been told in no uncertain terms by the EU that they cannot charge tolls on a road that was 83% funded by the EU. They won't put up with us pulling a fast one trying to pay off a debt to the EU with EU money.........and tolling the road from Cork to Limerick? They are having a f**king laugh, aren't they? Sledgehammer to water meter and avoid every road with a toll on it.......mind you I suppose due to Govt balls-ups we'll end up having to pay for tolls that we don't use as well.......

billyboy01

whiterebel wrote: »

This is about the 5th time that those twats in the NRA have taken a run at the JL Tunnel. It must be really driving them nuts, because they have been told in no uncertain terms by the EU that they cannot charge tolls on a road that was 83% funded by the EU. They won't put up with us pulling a fast one trying to pay off a debt to the EU with EU money.........and tolling the road from Cork to Limerick? They are having a f**king laugh, aren't they? Sledgehammer to water meter and avoid every road with a toll on it.......mind you I suppose due to Govt balls-ups we'll end up having to pay for tolls that we don't use as well.......

Well if Dubliners have to pay to use the M50, why the hell should you Corkers not have to pay to use your tunnel!

dr.fuzzenstein

billyboy01 wrote: »

Well if Dubliners have to pay to use the M50, why the hell should you Corkers not have to pay to use your tunnel!

Now you've done it!



I'm sure some corkonian is getting one of these ready:

AugustusMinimus

whiterebel wrote: »

This is about the 5th time that those twats in the NRA have taken a run at the JL Tunnel. It must be really driving them nuts, because they have been told in no uncertain terms by the EU that they cannot charge tolls on a road that was 83% funded by the EU. They won't put up with us pulling a fast one trying to pay off a debt to the EU with EU money.........and tolling the road from Cork to Limerick? They are having a f**king laugh, aren't they? Sledgehammer to water meter and avoid every road with a toll on it.......mind you I suppose due to Govt balls-ups we'll end up having to pay for tolls that we don't use as well.......

Why are the NRA so intent on tolling the Jack Lynch Tunnel anyways.

Surely the engineers at the NRA realise the traffic chaos that tolling it would do.

Thank god for EU regulations and directives.

munchkin_utd

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Why are the NRA so intent on tolling the Jack Lynch Tunnel anyways.

Surely the engineers at the NRA realise the traffic chaos that tolling it would do.

Thank god for EU regulations and directives.

i love posts that answer themselves.

Currently, theres traffic chaos. Logjam at the tunnel.
By introducing a toll, traffic will reduce, meaning less severe jams, less congestion.

The tolling itsself would most likely be video camera and tag like the M50 so it inself will not cause any delays.

EDIT......
And longer term people working on the west side will buy or rent property on the west side (and vice versa for east side) meaning less cross city journeys, and again less congestion than a free tunnel causes.

I am minded of the pensioner in cork who goes up and down to dublin each day on the train for his lunch.
Why??
Because its free!!

shedweller

munchkin_utd wrote: »

By introducing a toll, traffic will reduce, meaning less severe jams, less congestion.

I am always amused at comments like this.
Is it the assumption that people make unnecessary journeys and the toll will make them think again about making the journey?
:rolleyes:

Hogzy

shedweller wrote: »

I am always amused at comments like this.
Is it the assumption that people make unnecessary journeys and the toll will make them think again about making the journey?
:rolleyes:

Exactly. I hardly doubt the 5pm traffic going through the tunnel everyday is caused by people going for a "nice evening drive". It's people going to and from work. They have no choice in using the tunnel.
Let's not forget the sole purpose for building the tunnel in the first place. To alleviate the very serious traffic congestion in Cork City Center. Tolling the tunnel will just bring this problem right back. And the city isn't equipped to deal with such traffic.
Like I said twice above. That article is a load of crap. Nothing like that will be introduced.

munchkin_utd

shedweller wrote: »

I am always amused at comments like this.
Is it the assumption that people make unnecessary journeys and the toll will make them think again about making the journey?
:rolleyes:

yup.

it has its merits to a point, but if people have already bought a property on one side of the tunnel and have a workplace on the other, then they get caught in the middle (having to pay a toll that they cant realisticaly avoid) and theres not much of a perceptable benefit in reduced traffic.

And to be fair, who makes a discressionary journey now at rush hour on the South Ring with the chronic delays? Its mostly people who are going to or from work who will still be on the roads post tolling.

What it COULD do though is be a booster for public transport if they had say a radial Little Island (with AMPLE parking) park and ride service to Mahon etc and onto Ballincollig.

The park and ride on the South Link is brilliant and in itsself is taking a few thousand cars off the road in the city centre daily so its already a proven concept in Cork City.

Hogzy

munchkin_utd wrote: »

The park and ride on the South Link is brilliant and in itsself is taking a few thousand cars off the road in the city centre daily so its already a proven concept in Cork City.

a few thousand? A massive exaggeration to say the least. The only time the park and ride on the south link is busy is at Christmas or at rush hour. At rush hour there are about 5 or 6 buses that are packed. Other than that iv never seen more than 5-8 people on the bus.

If a toll were to be introduced it would almost have to be negligable in that people wouldn't be too concerned in it's cost yet it could quietly make money for the government. For example a 30c toll would be acceptable.

AugustusMinimus

munchkin_utd wrote: »

i love posts that answer themselves.

Currently, theres traffic chaos. Logjam at the tunnel.
By introducing a toll, traffic will reduce, meaning less severe jams, less congestion.

The tolling itsself would most likely be video camera and tag like the M50 so it inself will not cause any delays.

EDIT......
And longer term people working on the west side will buy or rent property on the west side (and vice versa for east side) meaning less cross city journeys, and again less congestion than a free tunnel causes.

I am minded of the pensioner in cork who goes up and down to dublin each day on the train for his lunch.
Why??
Because its free!!

The log jam caused by tolling the tunnel will be biblical in the city.

Have you seen the traffic in the city centre at 9 PM on a weekday night when the tunnel is closed for maintenance. Now imagine that at rush hour.

Raskolnikov

The odd time I have to drive from Northern Ireland to Cork - if I want to do this trip today, I have to pay 4 tolls to travel the route, that's just one way.

whiterebel

billyboy01 wrote: »

Well if Dubliners have to pay to use the M50, why the hell should you Corkers not have to pay to use your tunnel!

Because the EU funded the Tunnel, while the government decided to use PPP for the M50:rolleyes:

How can you say people pay to use the M50 anyway? People can use miles and miles of the M50 without having to pay a cent, yet if you want to go 2 miles you can pay up to €3????? One stupid system right there........

whiterebel

Hogzy wrote: »

Exactly. I hardly doubt the 5pm traffic going through the tunnel everyday is caused by people going for a "nice evening drive". It's people going to and from work. They have no choice in using the tunnel.
Let's not forget the sole purpose for building the tunnel in the first place. To alleviate the very serious traffic congestion in Cork City Center. Tolling the tunnel will just bring this problem right back. And the city isn't equipped to deal with such traffic.
Like I said twice above. That article is a load of crap. Nothing like that will be introduced.

My brother in-law is an engineer and worked on the plans for the tunnel. He assures me the place were in place for a toll plaza on the Mahon side of the tunnel from day one but were scrapped when they realised they weren't legally allowed to toll it.

Padraig Mor

From another forum - no idea if this is true:

"The contract has already been issued for the provision of cameras on the approach to the tunnel similar to those on the M50"

Hogzy

Padraig Mor wrote: »

From another forum - no idea if this is true:

"The contract has already been issued for the provision of cameras on the approach to the tunnel similar to those on the M50"

Hear say if you ask me. Such a contract would be a public document seeing as its a public road and would be plastered all over the Cork papers as well as boards.ie

Wolverine_1999

Wasn't it on Vincent Browne that it IS going ahead?

There will have be resistance to this, not just by the locals but also by drivers who frequent the roads in question. The government is always big on more taxes.. let's increase the intake.

Do they not see how much they are WASTING which is the serious cause of the issue?

Wolverine_1999

billyboy01 wrote: »

Well if Dubliners have to pay to use the M50, why the hell should you Corkers not have to pay to use your tunnel!

You know as well as everyone else that Dublin has the only decent public transport system in Ireland that even comes anywhere near the efficient and punctual services in the rest of Europe.

Plus the fact that the fully completed M50 was opened with a toll in place. There wasn't even consideration of this when the tunnel was opened in 1999 in Cork.

dr.fuzzenstein

It's all going the way of the 80's.
More taxes and charges, more people dodging them, lesser and lesser return for higher and higher charges, economy going into a prolonged decline.
By the time the IT bubble approached I thought "Surely a software company belonging to a 15 year old in his Mommy's basement can't be worth $25 million".
A few years later I thought "Surely the same mistake won't be made with housing"
And now I'm thinking "Surely by just taxing people who can't afford it they're just going to depress the economy for years to come"
I'm always told I'm naive and that it isn't that simple, but for some reason it does seem to be that simple and that people who earn millions and are in charge always have some hugely complicated explanation why common sense doesn't apply to their field of expertise.
I think we should put a few 6 year olds in charge, they can't fudge it up any worse.
And monkeys in charge of the banks, they are proven to do better than "experts" who are being paid huge, bloated, fat salaries and bonuses.
Proof here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1242575/Lusha-monkey-outperforms-94-Russia-bankers-investment-portfolio.html

and here
http://manualofideas.com/blog/2009/04/post_3.html

There won't be more tolls, there will be more tax on petrol, this is just to soften us up for the blow.
I'm right I know, my monkey told me, E1m and my left nut on that!

Berty

I was thinking about this today.

Surely the government is not going to run the Plazas. Surely they will have to tender out the contract to somebody for a minimum of a number of years and only make money from VAT.

What's the point then you'd wonder??

ShadowHearth

And that's when u thought we can't get fecked more then we are already...

Will people just stand and watch it being done? **** that, if there will be some sort of road blackings and protest I will join.

It's fecking too much, govermemt just got so used to bend over us. This has to stop FFs.

Hogzy

I wouldnt be surprised if some Fianna Fail idiot made up this rumor. `There has been absolutly NO government document or statement on the plan. Therefore IMO its not in the works

Wolverine_1999

Hogzy wrote: »

I wouldnt be surprised if some Fianna Fail idiot made up this rumor. `There has been absolutly NO government document or statement on the plan. Therefore IMO its not in the works

Let's just hope that none of these idiots ideas are actually taken on by the Government..

dr.fuzzenstein

Hogzy wrote: »

I wouldnt be surprised if some Fianna Fail idiot made up this rumor. `There has been absolutly NO government document or statement on the plan. Therefore IMO its not in the works

Your word in God's ear.
What would happen is that quite a few people would take backroads and go through towns.
This will lead to higher congestion and more deaths on the roads. Plus, all those new, shiny motorways would be a lot emptier, but backroads would get an awful hammering and therefore need a lot more maintenance.
Or maybe the government won't care, only count the money rolling in and let all roads other than motorways go to complete sh*t, while lowering all speedlimits on them and have a speedcamera around every corner.
It's the government, you cannot put anything past them.
Not just Ireland, this happens everywhere.