The true face of psychiatry

whiteonion

In China you're labeled mentally ill and put away in psychiatric institutions if you're a member of the Falun Gong movement In the United States the police will come and break down your door and arrest you if you refuse to drug your children with strong anti-psychotic mind-altering drugs. http://abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread688928/pg1 The psychiatrists are no better than the Zetas and other drug cartels. This is how they operate.

Scofflaw

Moved to Conspiracy Theories.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Monty Burnz

That was quick.

Dave!

So to summarise: a mother withheld medicine from her sick child against her doctor's recommendations, and then when Child Services tried to protect the child, the mother locked herself and the child in the building and fired a gun.

whiteonion

Risperdal is a highly addictive drug, famous for causing weight gain, leading to type2 diabetes. Anyone who puts children on psychoactive drugs should be considered a drug dealer and thrown in prison.

whiteonion

"Detroit SWAT team assaults African American mom who refused to medicate her daughter with antipsychotic drugs" http://www.naturalnews.com/032089_antipsychotic_drugs_health_freedom.html

My name is URL

You should watch the Louis Theroux documentary about children on anti-psychotic drugs.

It's on YouTube

It's shocking how many kids are put on meds in the US.

Monty Burnz

There's our old friend, Natural News again, the agenda-free righter of medical wrongs. Let's see what they are advertising today...

Well, there's a breakthrough in pain relief, using 'energy medicine' that you can download for the low price of $49.95. How does this amazing 'energy medicine work, I hear you ask? Well...

The Pain Buster Program
combines ancient Integrative Relaxation techniques with the futuristic Matrix Transmitter. The Transmitter broadcasts frequency vibrations that correct disfunctional energy patterns throughout the body. It restores the normal flow of energy to allow for the body's own innate mechanisms to balance and heal. The best part is that it balances ALL the energy centers of the body with one treatment. You can access it right now and experience it for yourself.

Can anyone please point me to the physics of 'frequency vibrations' please? I'd like to learn more about the workings of the 'futuristic Matrix Transmitter'.

http://www.stonewaterstudio.com/PAIN.php

What else do we have...well, they are still pushing the Aronia berries to those who are a bit panicked about the Fukushima radiation (is it even at detectable levels in the US?). I'm sure there's no harm in eating berries, but cashing in on people's fears like that makes me a bit uncomfortable...

http://www.superberries.com/aroniaberry-101/health-benefits/natural_news

Or you can cure 'almost any cancer at home for $5.15 a day!'.

http://curecancerathome.com/B/

You just have to buy a book from one Bill Henderson that explains the miracle food that you need to eat that costs a mere $19.95. I'll save you guys the money, a quick Google reveals that the mystery food is flax oil. One Johanna Budwig figured it would cure cancer. What does the research say about it? "There is no reliable evidence available for the effectiveness of the full Budwig protocol, though it is said that "thousands of cancer patients" in Europe went on the Budwig diet after it was publicized." That's from Wikipedia, so take it for what it's worth.

So while there is certainly a discussion worth having about bad medicine and medical practice, I'm not really sure that Natural News is in a good place to be leading the charge.

CiaranMT

whiteonion wrote: »

"Detroit SWAT team assaults African American mom who refused to medicate her daughter with antipsychotic drugs" http://www.naturalnews.com/032089_antipsychotic_drugs_health_freedom.html

OP, do you not see how the authors of stories such as this are presenting the incident? Why is it you read and believe these accounts, and have such distrust of 'mainstream' media which generally present incidents in a much more impartial manner?

whiteonion

CiaranMT wrote: »

OP, do you not see how the authors of stories such as this are presenting the incident? Why is it you read and believe these accounts, and have such distrust of 'mainstream' media which generally present incidents in a much more impartial manner?

They are presenting the truth. She refused to put her child on dangerous drugs and therefore they decided to bust into her home and kidnap her child.

All this so that Big Pharma can profit.

Here is a clip of what happens to children on Risperdal.
This poor fella developed bitch tits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-VouCjp_eI

whiteonion

whiteonion wrote: »

They are presenting the truth. She refused to put her child on dangerous drugs and therefore they decided to bust into her home and kidnap her child.

All this so that Big Pharma can profit.

Here is a clip of what happens to children on Risperdal.
This poor fella developed bitch tits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-VouCjp_eI

But how do you know that you are being presented with the whole, unbiased truth?
Natural News has money to be made from spreading fear and uncertainty about mainstream medicine, so by your own reasoning they must be lying and distorting things so they can profit, right?

My name is URL

Here's a load of other news sources in case anyone actually wants to discuss the topic, and not the possible biases of naturalnews.com =p

http://news.google.ie/news/more?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=b8n&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&q=detroit+child&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ncl=dEwn7230xG1KOsMzQ6skTKbGSdKIM&ei=-oaoTfORF4XPhAfImozOCQ&sa=X&oi=news_result&ct=more-results&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQqgIwAA

humanji

whiteonion wrote: »

In China you're labeled mentally ill and put away in psychiatric institutions if you're a member of the Falun Gong movement In the United States the police will come and break down your door and arrest you if you refuse to drug your children with strong anti-psychotic mind-altering drugs. http://abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread688928/pg1 The psychiatrists are no better than the Zetas and other drug cartels. This is how they operate.

Using conspiracy sites to prove your point is like using the bible to prove the existence of god. And it also says that a doctor prescribed the drugs, not a psychiatrist.

Another point is that it's silly to try and claim that psychiatry is using the police to force medication on people. In the States, the child welfare system is shockingly bad. It's a safe bet that a minimal amount of effort was actualy put into the girls case in the first place, not because they don't care, but because they don't have the time or resources, and have to have a fairly quick turnover.

In this case, the mother broke the law. It's stupid and shouldn't have happened, but the police aren't there to pick and choose what they want to do. There was a weapon involed, SWAT were called and the charges racked up. The cops were only doing what they had to. Do you really think they knew anything other than a woman with a gun wouldn't give her daughter to child services?

Anyway, this case was a terrible example to pick because it's been exploited by those with an agenda. There are better examples of cases where children are being abused and given medication without thought. It's terrible that it happens, but painting all psychiatry with the one brush is like calling all Irish drunks, all bankers thieves or all priests pedophiles.

But medication isn't the be all and end all of psychiatry. There's a hell of a lot more to it. So decrying it because of a fraction of cases is a bit silly.

And what has Falun Gong got to do with it?

CiaranMT

humanji wrote: »

Using conspiracy sites to prove your point is like using the bible to prove the existence of god. And it also says that a doctor prescribed the drugs, not a psychiatrist.

Another point is that it's silly to try and claim that psychiatry is using the police to force medication on people. In the States, the child welfare system is shockingly bad. It's a safe bet that a minimal amount of effort was actualy put into the girls case in the first place, not because they don't care, but because they don't have the time or resources, and have to have a fairly quick turnover.

In this case, the mother broke the law. It's stupid and shouldn't have happened, but the police aren't there to pick and choose what they want to do. There was a weapon involed, SWAT were called and the charges racked up. The cops were only doing what they had to. Do you really think they knew anything other than a woman with a gun wouldn't give her daughter to child services?

Anyway, this case was a terrible example to pick because it's been exploited by those with an agenda. There are better examples of cases where children are being abused and given medication without thought. It's terrible that it happens, but painting all psychiatry with the one brush is like calling all Irish drunks, all bankers thieves or all priests pedophiles.

But medication isn't the be all and end all of psychiatry. There's a hell of a lot more to it. So decrying it because of a fraction of cases is a bit silly.

And what has Falun Gong got to do with it?

I'd be writing something like this if I''d the patience. Fair dues :P

whiteonion

CiaranMT wrote: »

An opening post comparing psychiatrists and their methods with drug-lords, questionable human rights practices in China and the like does not lend well to a reasoned debate. Especially one founded on a report from a site which clearly distorts the story so blatantly.

In China they put Falun Gong members in psychiatric institutions. In America they kick down your door and kidnap your child if you refuse to put your children on dangerous psychiatric drugs.

This is exactly what has happened. Don't accuse me of trying to "spin" the story. America is a medical tyranny. A fascist police state. Anyone who says otherwise is BLIND.

whiteonion

whiteonion wrote: »

Don't accuse me of trying to "spin" the story.

Except you keep failing to mention the gun part.

So again, why do you believe a source like Natural News when they are subject to the same corruption you think mainstream medicine and sources are?

CiaranMT

whiteonion wrote: »

In China they put Falun Gong members in psychiatric institutions. In America they kick down your door and kidnap your child if you refuse to put your children on dangerous psychiatric drugs.

This is exactly what has happened. Don't accuse me of trying to "spin" the story. America is a medical tyranny. A fascist police state. Anyone who says otherwise is BLIND.

If you don't this post as an example of 'spinning' the story then I'll have to just disengage from the debate.

whiteonion

King Mob wrote: »

Except you keep failing to mention the gun part.

So again, why do you believe a source like Natural News when they are subject to the same corruption you think mainstream medicine and sources are?

If armed assailants try to kidnap you child it's just normal to try to defend yourself and your family. It doesn't make a difference if these armed assailants happen to be government sponsored thugs.

clever_name

whiteonion wrote: »

This is exactly what has happened. Don't accuse me of trying to "spin" the story. America is a medical tyranny. A fascist police state. Anyone who says otherwise is BLIND.

I might be wasting my time asking these questions as it appears that anyone who might think differently than you is blind, but I will hope for the best and ask.

whiteonion wrote: »

In China they put Falun Gong members in psychiatric institutions. In America they kick down your door and kidnap your child if you refuse to put your children on dangerous psychiatric drugs.

Who are "they"?psychiatrists or the "fascist police state"?

Do you believe that psychiatrists are the biggest threat to freedom in China?

Do you think that psychiatrists do anything other than dispense drugs?

I think the biggest question is this, is your problem with psychiatrists or what you see as corrupt governments?

Monty Burnz

whiteonion wrote: »

If armed assailants try to kidnap you child it's just normal to try to defend yourself and your family. It doesn't make a difference if these armed assailants happen to be government sponsored thugs.

Did armed assailants try to kidnap a child, or did unarmed social workers come to take a child to safety from a mother who defied professional medical advice? Or is it routine for SWAT teams to accompany social workers in the US?

I can see why you are struggling with the concept of biased reporting if you consider your description of the event to be accurate.

My name is URL

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Did armed assailants try to kidnap a child, or did unarmed social workers come to take a child to safety from a mother who defied professional medical advice? Or is it routine for SWAT teams to accompany social workers in the US?

The woman's GP had advised her not to administer the psychotropic drugs to the child. Leaving aside the obvious about SWAT teams getting involved, and the fact that the mother was in possession of a gun, do you think it's ok for the state to step in in cases like this? Officials are now saying that she doesn't need to be on any meds at this point in time.

Monty Burnz

My name is URL wrote: »

The woman's GP had advised her not to administer the psychotropic drugs to the child. Leaving aside the obvious about SWAT teams getting involved, and the fact that the mother was in possession of a gun, do you think it's ok for the state to step in in cases like this? Officials are now saying that she doesn't need to be on any meds at this point in time.

I have no idea - what do you think? Do you think the state should never intervene in how a parent raises their child?

I'm not a doctor, and I'm not intimately familiar with the details of the case. I only have an issue with the way people and organisations are so happy to spin events to suit their agenda.

Solair

There can be some very over the top reactions by social workers in many states. We've certainly seen that kind of thing in the past in Ireland when children were locked away in abusive institutions for no logical reason other than a local nun/priest or whatever took a dislike to the lifestyle of their mother e.g. single mom etc.

It shows why children's rights need to be enshrined in serious legislation.

There is no doubt that there is gross over prescription of psychiatric medication in the United States in particular, but also in other countries. There is also a gross over-diagnosis of autism, aspergers syndrome and ADDH type disorders.

I am not saying that those disorders do not exist, but in many cases that I have seen, it's just a disruptive kid or a kid with a personality that does not fit into the education system very well.

We had a situation where a psychiatrist diagnosed my cousin as being autistic. I noticed that she was not hearing things, looked confused and a bit miserable and suggested that maybe her parents get a new GP and see if they can get her to an ENT consultant. They did, and she turned out to be suffering from serious middle ear problems causing hearing problems hence, her lack of social interaction and speech development. The poor kid had almost no conductive hearing at all. She had some ear surgery to solve the problem and 6-months later she was interacting perfectly and with a bit of hard work caught up on speech development. Her hearing's not perfect, but it's more than enough to get by!

There are fad diagnosis in medicine and people need to be very careful about them. It's why second and third opinions are very important.

My name is URL

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I have no idea - what do you think? Do you think the state should never intervene in how a parent raises their child?

I'm not a doctor, and I'm not intimately familiar with the details of the case. I only have an issue with the way people and organisations are so happy to spin events to suit their agenda.

I think they should damn sure of their convictions before they act. Mistakes are always going to happen but whether they can be rectified or not is another matter.. in this case it seems unlikely that they will be rectified.

Does anything ever happen in the world which people do not spin to suit their own agenda? Whatever spin is being put on things doesn't negate the facts, and shouldn't be the basis of any argument against those facts.

Monty Burnz

My name is URL wrote: »

I think they should damn sure of their convictions before they act. Mistakes are always going to happen but whether they can be rectified or not is another matter.. in this case it seems unlikely that they will be rectified.

I presume they were sure. They probably didn't do it for a lark, but as I said I'm not as familiar with the case as those who made the decisions so I won't pronounce on whether it was right or wrong.

My name is URL wrote: »

Does anything ever happen in the world which people do not spin to suit their own agenda? Whatever spin is being put on things doesn't negate the facts, and shouldn't be the basis of any argument against those facts.

And as a consequence, when people come here with their spin-tastic claims, we spend most of the time debating the spin rather than debating the substantive issue - in this case, the attempt to force a child to be treated by psychiatric medicine against the will of its mother.

CiaranMT

Solair wrote: »

We had a situation where a psychiatrist diagnosed my cousin as being autistic. I noticed that she was not hearing things, looked confused and a bit miserable and suggested that maybe her parents get a new GP and see if they can get her to an ENT consultant. They did, and she turned out to be suffering from serious middle ear problems causing hearing problems hence, her lack of social interaction and speech development. The poor kid had almost no conductive hearing at all. She had some ear surgery to solve the problem and 6-months later she was interacting perfectly and with a bit of hard work caught up on speech development. Her hearing's not perfect, but it's more than enough to get by!

There are fad diagnosis in medicine and people need to be very careful about them. It's why second and third opinions are very important.

Jesus, you'd think something as serious as a possible ASD diagnosis would automatically go to for a second opinion?

whiteonion

That says a whole lot about "psychiatrists" don't it? They diagnose people with illnesses they don't have so they can get kickbacks from Big Pharma when they sell their "medicines".

clever_name

whiteonion wrote: »

That says a whole lot about "psychiatrists" don't it? They diagnose people with illnesses they don't have so they can get kickbacks from Big Pharma when they sell their "medicines".

Any chance of a reply to my questions?

thanks

CiaranMT

whiteonion wrote: »

That says a whole lot about "psychiatrists" don't it? They diagnose people with illnesses they don't have so they can get kickbacks from Big Pharma when they sell their "medicines".

Question.

Who would you have treat and take care of people who suffer from paranoid schizophrenia, borderline personality disorder and the like?

And what about people with intellectual disabilities? Specific ones like ASDs, Down's Syndrome, or non-specific ones where there was an issue during pregnancy?

<snip>

Monty Burnz

whiteonion wrote: »

That says a whole lot about "psychiatrists" don't it? They diagnose people with illnesses they don't have so they can get kickbacks from Big Pharma when they sell their "medicines".

Any chance of some proof? What kind of sums are we talking about? What is the mechanism for these kickbacks? (e.g. paid straight into bank accounts, man with brown envelope comes around etc)

How much would a psychiatrist expect to get paid? Is it per customer, or is it by volume of drugs sold?

I'm curious because psychiatrists are very well paid, so I imagine it would need to be a decent whack of money to convince them to prescribe drugs that they know will harm their patients, in violation of every ethical standard of the medical profession.

Priori

Perhaps we should leave 'diagnosing' up to supercomputers...

One Nanostep for Technology, One Quantum Leap for Psychiatry

33

Priori wrote: »

Perhaps we should leave 'diagnosing' up to supercomputers...

One Nanostep for Technology, One Quantum Leap for Psychiatry

Taken from your link, these are the pioneer's, the visionaries, the mad scientists, a couple of years down the road we'll all have our implants and be thoughting posts here, no escape from kingmob:eek:.
We'll just think of somebody and message them, or think of a post and it will appear here.

Hope when they integrate computers and brains I don't get hacked and my thoughts stolen or implanted, or catch the deadly virtual black plague.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15sh05wrQ6Y

Its a strange oul world, and its not getting any better. I think the direction the world is heading needs its own thread.
Imagine none of the 2012, planet x, messiah, end of days happens and 100 years from now what type of world will our decendants be living in, it's looking bleak, without the usual suspect threats we are quite capable of doing away with ourselves within the next 100 years either deliberate or by accident, or maybe even slaves to more intelligent computers.
These views are my own and may or may not contain sarcasm, dont ask for proof or links because I'm not integrated yet so wouldn't know a lot about it.

Yitzhak Rabin

Ive deleted a load of offtopic posts. Please don't come here to dictate how other posters should post.

33

^^^^^Robbed my spot:mad:^^^^^^

Psychiatric hospitals have very much been places to do the undoable, testing grounds, have a look at willowbrook state school, NY, residents were sexually abused by staff and intentionally infected with hepatitis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willowbrook_State_School

China has a few bad cases of people being put in institutions when they shouldnt, take this mans words as an example.

Sun yelled to the doctor coming to him, “I am not lunatic! I am just going to petition!”

And Japan

It is necessary for nurses to recognize that their professional responsibility is primarily to patients, not to organizations

Seem's in the UK any old joe can open a mental hospital.

The Government wants to encourage small businesses, social enterprises and mutuals as part of its plan to roll-out the "any willing provider" philosophy across the public sector, especially in areas such as mental health, where the NHS has a poor track record.

Another one of the many, many US psychiatric scandals

So reads the formal apology issued by the Secretary for the Health and Human Sciences Department of the US in response to findings that between 1946 and 1948, some 695 Guatemalan prisoners, soldiers and psychiatric patients were deliberately infected with syphilis as part of a systematic medical experiment.

Ireland and its backward old ways, are they really old or just covered up, heres a story of a continuing cover-up, child guine pigs in a home, maybe mothers had that psychiatric problem called being pregnant and not married.

More than 123 of these infants and toddlers were residents in children's homes in Dublin, Cork and the midlands when the trials took place in the 1960s and 1970s.

Trial one involved 58 children in five children's homes in Dublin, Cork, Westmeath and Meath. The trial investigated what would happen if four vaccines -- diphtheria, pertussis (also known as whooping cough), tetanus and polio -- were combined in one overall four-in-one shot.

The trial was published in the 'British Medical Journal' in 1962. The final paragraph of it read: "We are indebted to the medical officers in charge of the children's homes. . . for permission to carry out this investigation on infants under their care."

Then the Canadian orphans

The Duplessis Orphans were the victims of a scheme in which several thousand orphaned children were falsely certified as mentally ill by the government of the province of Quebec, Canada, and confined to psychiatric institutions.

Or how this for therapy

It is also a damning criticism of those “professionals” entrusted with the task of helping people who are extremely fragile emotionally.
On October 31, 2002, French psychotherapist Jean-Pierre Tremel was sentenced to 10 years in prison for raping and sexually abusing two young patients that the court recognized as being extremely vulnerable. Tremel, age 52, claimed his “treatment” was based on an “Oriental tradition” wherein “old men introduce girls to sexual practices.”
Such “treatment” is never help. It is a disgusting betrayal in the guise of help, an all-too-frequent occurrence in the mental health industry:


Or this
Child Drugging: Psychiatry Destroying Lives

Quick Facts about Psychiatry
While posing as “authorities” on the mind and mental health, psychiatry has no scientific basis for any of its treatments or methods. Presented herein is specific evidence debunking several of the main claims and methods of this pseudo-science.

“In short, the whole business of creating psychiatric categories of ‘disease,’ formalizing them with consensus, and subsequently ascribing diagnostic codes to them, which in turn lead to their use for insurance billing, is nothing but an extended racket furnishing psychiatry a pseudo-scientific aura.”

—Dr. Thomas Dorman, Member of the Royal College of Physicians of the United Kingdom and Canada


In 2003, the Colorado State Board of Psychologist Examiners revoked the license of Dr. John Dicke, whose treatment of a 5-year-old boy included using sex toys. According to the boy’s father, his son had been “stripped naked, tortured, restrained, verbally abused, sexually abused, brainwashed and horrified by a dildo” during the alleged therapy.

Psychologist Ordered to Stop Using
Sex Toys When Treating Children

IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED and agreed by and between the State Board of Psychologist Examiners ("Board") and John A. Dicke Ph.D. ("Respondent" or "Dicke")



In 1989, Dr. Paul A. Walters, psychiatrist in charge of student health at Stanford University, California, and former head of Harvard University’s Health Services’ Mental Health Division, was forced to resign after allegations of his having “frequent sex” with a female patient. The woman, who had been the victim of sexual abuse as a child, was awarded more than $200,000 in an out-of-court settlement. She said Walters had used her to perform oral sex on him, “sometimes as often as two out of three psychiatric analysis sessions per week.”


http://www.mental-health-abuse.org/psychRape.shtml

You really should look at the sources you're using to make sure they aren't as guilty as you think real medical professionals are.

The CCHR is owned and operated by the Church of Scientology who profit enormously by being a creepy cult that claims to be an alternative to psychiatry.

So how are these guys immune to the same corruption as mainstream doctors?

33

King Mob wrote: »

You really should look at the sources you're using to make sure they aren't as guilty as you think real medical professionals are.

The CCHR is owned and operated by the Church of Scientology who profit enormously by being a creepy cult that claims to be an alternative to psychiatry.

So how are these guys immune to the same corruption as mainstream doctors?

I didn't know that about CCHR, I will look into it, thanks.

Heres a horror story from their site

An Orange County, California, psychiatrist, James Harrington White, was convicted of the forced sodomy of a male patient. After an investigation by Citizens Commission on Human Rights (CCHR), White was found to have drugged young men, then videotaped himself having sex with them. White was sentenced to prison for almost seven years.

so before I believe this I will google his name and see if I can confirm this is true from other sources and find this.

http://articles.latimes.com/keyword/james-harrington-white

So its beginning to look like he may have sexually molested that man or maybe he was set up.

33

33 wrote: »

I didn't know that about CCHR, I will look into it, thanks.

So you do believe that they are just as untrustworthy as mainstream sources?

33 wrote: »

Heres a horror story from their site

An Orange County, California, psychiatrist, James Harrington White, was convicted of the forced sodomy of a male patient. After an investigation by Citizens Commission on Human Rights (CCHR), White was found to have drugged young men, then videotaped himself having sex with them. White was sentenced to prison for almost seven years.

so before I believe this I will google his name and see if I can confirm this is true from other sources and find this.

http://articles.latimes.com/keyword/james-harrington-white

So its beginning to look like he may have sexually molested that man or maybe he was set up.

Ok and what is the relevance of this?
I'm sure I can find car factory workers who have been convicted of just as bad stuff. I'm sure there are a few horror stories involving conspiracy theorists.
Does this mean that car factories and conspiracy theories are inherently evil?

33

Just saw something there about the mentioned John Dicke, the dildo therapist, seems he was a keen writer and had a few books out.



Dr. John Dicke holds advanced degrees in both law and psychology. He handled criminal cases as a public defender in Ohio and Colorado and was a regional counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union. As a former forensic psychologist, Dicke was involved in complex forensic cases, including those of serial killers and rapists. Dicke has appeared as an expert witness in over 60 trials, has also provided on-camera analysis of the Columbine High School shootings for CBS, Fox, PBS and MSNBC, and has published op-ed pieces in various newspapers about the tragedy.
http://www.johndicke.com/

Guilt by Association

Ralph Fisch's ties to John Dicke may cost him his job

http://www.westword.com/2002-03-14/news/guilt-by-association/

Theres plenty of nooks and crannies to be searched in the murky hidden away world of psychiatry and mental illness, almost seems some people follow this line of profession and study hard with the thought in the back of their mind that they will have access to vulnerable people, does it not.

33

King Mob wrote: »

So you do believe that they are just as untrustworthy as mainstream sources?


Ok and what is the relevance of this?
I'm sure I can find car factory workers who have been convicted of just as bad stuff. I'm sure there are a few horror stories involving conspiracy theorists.
Does this mean that car factories and conspiracy theories are inherently evil?

Its too late to get into this now, so this will be my last post then goodnite from me.

I believe they would be biased, although I found sources to their stories elsewhere so they didn't just make it up.

I'm sure you will find the number of psychiatric employees who sexually abuse people will be higher than the average car factory worker, and what was the relevence of that?, comparing car factory workers?, and the relevence was and still is that I found other stories that showed that it wasn't exclusively tthat scientologist site that just made it up, I found other stories about the same incident.

33

33 wrote: »

I believe they would be biased, although I found sources to their stories elsewhere so they didn't just make it up.

So, not familiar with the concept of spin or using a true story to scaremonger?

33 wrote: »

I'm sure you will find the number of psychiatric employees who sexually abuse people will be higher than the average car factory worker,

And are you basing this on any particular evidence or just assuming.

33 wrote: »

and what was the relevence of that?, comparing car factory workers?,

Because what a handful of individuals do, does not reflect their profession as a whole.
A mental health worker that is convicted of the above no more proves that psychiatry is evil than a car factory worker convicted of the same thing proves that car factories are evil.

33 wrote: »

and the relevence was and still is that I found other stories that showed that it wasn't exclusively tthat scientologist site that just made it up, I found other stories about the same incident.

So what about these ones?:
http://www.cchr.org/quick-facts/introduction.html
http://www.cchr.org/cchr-reports/child-drugging/introduction.html

Or all the opinion on spin in this one?:
http://www.cchr.org/cchr-reports/psychiatric-rape/introduction.html

Are they accurate or trustworthy?

33

King Mob wrote: »

So, not familiar with the concept of spin or using a true story to scaremonger?


And are you basing this on any particular evidence or just assuming.

Because what a handful of individuals do, does not reflect their profession as a whole.
A mental health worker that is convicted of the above no more proves that psychiatry is evil than a car factory worker convicted of the same thing proves that car factories are evil.


So what about these ones?:
http://www.cchr.org/quick-facts/introduction.html
http://www.cchr.org/cchr-reports/child-drugging/introduction.html

Or all the opinion on spin in this one?:
http://www.cchr.org/cchr-reports/psychiatric-rape/introduction.html

Are they accurate or trustworthy?

I would say more psychiatric workers would be and are sexual predators because of the secret nature of the business, rather than toyota workers.
Numerous psychiatric institutions have been implicated in some form of sexual crime by members of staff, not every one is, some are.

OK cchr are a scientology front and not to be trusted, they have an agenda, but you failed to show where anything they say is wrong, so what exactly that they say is wrong, and why do you assume it is, just because scientology is a weird outfit doesn't make what they say wrong.

I also had other links that you ignored in favour of cchr, so please explain (apart from scientology) why anything I quoted from cchr is wrong, maybe they are 100% right when it comes to psychiatry and wrong about their other beliefs.

Nurse-patient sexual contact in psychiatric hospitals.


Have a read of this.

33

33 wrote: »

I would say more psychiatric workers would be and are sexual predators because of the secret nature of the business, rather than toyota workers.
Numerous psychiatric institutions have been implicated in some form of sexual crime by members of staff, not every one is, some are.

And again, have you any evidence to support this assertion or are you just assuming it?

33 wrote: »

OK cchr are a scientology front and not to be trusted, they have an agenda, but you failed to show where anything they say is wrong, so what exactly that they say is wrong, and why do you assume it is, just because scientology is a weird outfit doesn't make what they say wrong.

Well most of their claims about how psychiatry isn't scientific and that it's a giant conspiracy. Pretty much all of their claims are total nonsense or when they are actually based on the truth they are twisted to suit their agenda.
Unless of course you can show that psychiatrists are responsible for both the Holocaust and terrorism?

But do you not find it hypocritical that you're saying this about scientology's front group, but you'd also dismiss any mainstream source out of hand because they could profit from it?

33 wrote: »

I also had other links that you ignored in favour of cchr, so please explain (apart from scientology) why anything I quoted from cchr is wrong, maybe they are 100% right when it comes to psychiatry and wrong about their other beliefs.

I picked out the CCHR because it's another example of CTers using an obviously biased source that has as much to gain as the evil mainstream medicine industry. I'm trying to see if there's any reason you guys are so trusting of these sources other than the source is simply anti-mainstream/government.

33

King Mob wrote: »

And again, have you any evidence to support this assertion or are you just assuming it?


Well most of their claims about how psychiatry isn't scientific and that it's a giant conspiracy. Pretty much all of their claims are total nonsense or when they are actually based on the truth they are twisted to suit their agenda.
Unless of course you can show that psychiatrists are responsible for both the Holocaust and terrorism?

But do you not find it hypocritical that you're saying this about scientology's front group, but you'd also dismiss any mainstream source out of hand because they could profit from it?


I picked out the CCHR because it's another example of CTers using an obviously biased source that has as much to gain as the evil mainstream medicine industry. I'm trying to see if there's any reason you guys are so trusting of these sources other than the source is simply anti-mainstream/government.

Ok, can you please explain why and how their claims on psychiatry are wrong, forget the rest, just that bit please.

33

33 wrote: »

Ok, can you please explain why and how their claims on psychiatry are wrong, forget the rest, just that bit please.

http://www.cchr.org/quick-facts/introduction.html

Let's take a few of these. Not arsed to do everything you've posted because you aren't arsed to actually back it up.

Real Disease vs. Mental “Disorder”

Psychiatric disorders are not medical diseases. There are no lab tests, brain scans, X-rays or chemical imbalance tests that can verify any mental disorder is a physical condition. This is not to say that people do not get depressed, or that people can’t experience emotional or mental duress, but psychiatry has repackaged these emotions and behaviors as “disease” in order to sell drugs. This is a brilliant marketing campaign, but it is not science.

Psychiatric Disorders Voted Into Existence

Psychiatry’s diagnostic criteria are literally voted into existence and inserted into the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders (DSM). What is voted in is a system of classification of symptoms that is drastically different from, and foreign to, anything in medicine. None of the diagnoses are supported by objective evidence of physical disease, illness, or science.

These are lies, distortions and untruths.
Various psychiatric and developmental disorders are examined by researchers by scientific means, as evidenced by the actual peer reviewed scientific papers published on the subject. Once a newly discovered disorder is discovered and study and categorised it is decided whether it meets the standards to be properly classified as a disorder then added to the DSM.
Most psychiatric and developmental disorders are treated without drugs.

Psychiatry Admits It Has No Cures

“We do not know the causes [of any mental illness]. We don’t have the methods of ‘curing’ these illnesses yet.” —Dr. Rex Cowdry, psychiatrist and director of National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH), 1995

Because mental disorders are complicated and don't have a single easily identified source. There are many medical diseases that don't have a cure, is medicine a total fraud too?
(Btw, guess who claims they can actually cure all mental disorders?)

Side Effects

Psychiatrists can’t predict what adverse side effects you might experience because not one of them knows how their drugs work.

Psychotropic drugs are increasingly being exposed as chemical toxins with the power to kill. Psychiatrists claim their drugs save lives, but according to their own studies, psychotropic drugs can double the risk of suicide.

All drugs are tested for side effects and safety. Not all drugs are the same, so their claim that they all double suicide rates is bull from the get go.
Also I like how they use "chemical toxins" as scary words.

No Genetic Proof of Mental Illnesses

“No claim for a gene for a psychiatric condition has stood the test of time, in spite of popular misinformation.” —Dr. Joseph Glenmullen, Harvard Medical School psychiatrist

That's because a lot of mental disorders aren't genetic and the ones that are have many complicated factors. Though there's a lot of evidence that autism (which scientology says doesn't exist) has a genetic component.

Interestingly pretty much all of these things are actually applicable for scientology.

So is there any particular reason we should believe anything from the CCHR or similarly biased sources like Natural News? Do you think these sources are trustworthy?

CiaranMT

33 wrote: »

Ok, can you please explain why and how their claims on psychiatry are wrong, forget the rest, just that bit please.

Do you seriously doubt that psychiatry relies on scientific methods to treat patients?

Take a step back and think about that. To doubt it would be to think that G.P.s, paediatricians, surgeons etc aren't reliant on scientific evidence when they treat their patients.

33

King Mob wrote: »

http://www.cchr.org/quick-facts/introduction.html

Let's take a few of these. Not arsed to do everything you've posted because you aren't arsed to actually back it up.


These are lies, distortions and untruths.
Various psychiatric and developmental disorders are examined by researchers by scientific means, as evidenced by the actual peer reviewed scientific papers published on the subject. Once a newly discovered disorder is discovered and study and categorised it is decided whether it meets the standards to be properly classified as a disorder then added to the DSM.
Most psychiatric and developmental disorders are treated without drugs.


Because mental disorders are complicated and don't have a single easily identified source. There are many medical diseases that don't have a cure, is medicine a total fraud too?
(Btw, guess who claims they can actually cure all mental disorders?)

All drugs are tested for side effects and safety. Not all drugs are the same, so their claim that they all double suicide rates is bull from the get go.
Also I like how they use "chemical toxins" as scary words.


That's because a lot of mental disorders aren't genetic and the ones that are have many complicated factors. Though there's a lot of evidence that autism (which scientology says doesn't exist) has a genetic component.

Interestingly pretty much all of these things are actually applicable for scientology.

So is there any particular reason we should believe anything from the CCHR or similarly biased sources like Natural News? Do you think these sources are trustworthy?

Well I have as much reason to trust or distrust all of the above, the medical mafia v's sceintology is like saying crips v's bloods and trying to argue that one side is good and one bad.

The brain is the least understood thing maybe in the universe and it's right there on the road in iraq or in the hand of some pathologist, yet so not understood.

Was just reading earlier about anti-depressants growing brain cells and thought WTF?, WTF are these mad scientists playing at, they are doing live blind experiments with live guinepigs, actually growing brain cells in humans using stem cells, what if these new brain cells are not perfect and the people become zombie like, as they do already, void of feeling, this just highlights that they know nothing, like how every year fairy liquid can clean more plates or Ariel can wash clothes better each year, meaning the one before was really crap, this happens over and over, except were not talking about clothes or dishes, but human brains, live ones, and the ongoing experiments.
here's the link
http://www.dnaindia.com/scitech/report_how-anti-depressants-create-brain-cell_1533248

33

33 wrote: »

Well I have as much reason to trust or distrust all of the above, the medical mafia v's sceintology is like saying crips v's bloods and trying to argue that one side is good and one bad.

That would be true if both sides are on equal standing.
Except the evil mainstream medicine has oversight and needs to do proper published science. Scientology just needs to make **** up and use conspiracy theories to explain away any gaps in their narrative.

33 wrote: »

The brain is the least understood thing maybe in the universe and it's right there on the road in iraq or in the hand of some pathologist, yet so not understood.

And least understood does not mean we know nothing about it. And it certainly doesn't mean you can do what scientology does and fills the gap with nonsense.

33 wrote: »

Was just reading earlier about anti-depressants growing brain cells and thought WTF?, WTF are these mad scientists playing at, they are doing live blind experiments with live guinepigs, actually growing brain cells in humans using stem cells, what if these new brain cells are not perfect and the people become zombie like, as they do already, void of feeling, this just highlights that they know nothing, like how every year fairy liquid can clean more plates or Ariel can wash clothes better each year, meaning the one before was really crap, this happens over and over, except were not talking about clothes or dishes, but human brains, live ones, and the ongoing experiments.
here's the link
http://www.dnaindia.com/scitech/report_how-anti-depressants-create-brain-cell_1533248

Or maybe they give us superpowers?
Seems as likely and as scientific as your Hollywood science level rant there.

33

CiaranMT wrote: »

Do you seriously doubt that psychiatry relies on scientific methods to treat patients?

Take a step back and think about that. To doubt it would be to think that G.P.s, paediatricians, surgeons etc aren't reliant on scientific evidence when they treat their patients.

I don't need to step anywhere, psychiatry relies on mad science basically and lots of money, now you step back and take a look at how the business is run, the diagnosis given, the medication to treat the patient.

Now think about this, if it were all so sewn up and understood with sound scientific data, then why are people misdiagnosed so often, or one doctor saying one thing and another saying the opposite, if it were all so rosy in the garden there would never be a need for a 2nd opinion would there, or that mad doctor in drogheda who was ripping womens wombs out to treat ingrown toenails.

33

33 wrote: »

Now think about this, if it were all so sewn up and understood with sound scientific data, then why are people misdiagnosed so often, or one doctor saying one thing and another saying the opposite, if it were all so rosy in the garden there would never be a need for a 2nd opinion would there, or that mad doctor in drogheda who was ripping womens wombs out to treat ingrown toenails.

Ok. Wow.
If you think this is sound reasoning I don't think we can use facts and logic to convince you.

33

King Mob wrote: »

That would be true if both sides are on equal standing.
Except the evil mainstream medicine has oversight and needs to do proper published science. Scientology just needs to make **** up and use conspiracy theories to explain away any gaps in their narrative.

And least understood does not mean we know nothing about it. And it certainly doesn't mean you can do what scientology does and fills the gap with nonsense.


Or maybe they give us superpowers?
Seems as likely and as scientific as your Hollywood science level rant there.

Yea sorry about the rant.

You still havent said how the scientology stories were wrong though, they may make **** up but you have only given your opinion, which is as good or as bad as sceintologys really, but hasn't shown anything to be wrong or lies, just you believe it to be.

33

33 wrote: »

Yea sorry about the rant.
You still havent said how the scientology stories were wrong though, they may make **** up but you have only given your opinion, which is as good or as bad as sceintologys really, but hasn't shown anything to be wrong or lies, just you believe it to be.

I specifically addressed some of the points they made in their list of "facts".
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71759338#post71759338

Apparently that was just me wasting my time.